Question about boundaries - or expectations.

[Depression = 72% of members]

The biggest problem/issue I had in the relationship with my ex was this. I didn't have any interest in going out drinking or to dinners with other women - except if I knew them well and they were obviously just friends who weren't interested.

I offered to introduce all of my friends to her - especially the women. Went out of my way to do so.

She seemed defensive about the issue. She didn't want to introduce me to her MALE friends. She even said that her boyfriends dont meet them. Some of the men she would go out with were interested in MORE than just a friendship. She would tell me about them trying to make out with them at these "dates". Even wanted to go on an overnight trip out of town with one who "pinned her against her car" in the parking lot of a restaurant after having dinner with him just a couple weeks before. She would, in some cases, go out with "friends" (guys) she just met on Facebook or that she had just met days before and pass them off as friends.

Am I being unreasonable to assume that in a committed relationship each person should not go out drinking/dinner dates if you really don't know them? Or at least if you do, you should offer to introduce them to your partner or invite them along? She had one make friend she met back up with on Match.com and she would go out to dinner with him and drive past my place on her way to hang out at his house with until after midnight with at times and not come se me or even call me or text me. I'm feeling really paranoid about it now. I wouldn't have done that to her without including her. Am I wrong?

[BigBen]

The biggest problem/issue I had in the relationship with my ex was this. I didn't have any interest in going out drinking or to dinners with other women - except if I knew them well and they were obviously just friends who weren't interested.

I offered to introduce all of my friends to her - especially the women. Went out of my way to do so.

She seemed defensive about the issue. She didn't want to introduce me to her MALE friends. She even said that her boyfriends dont meet them. Some of the men she would go out with were interested in MORE than just a friendship. She would tell me about them trying to make out with them at these "dates". Even wanted to go on an overnight trip out of town with one who "pinned her against her car" in the parking lot of a restaurant after having dinner with him just a couple weeks before. She would, in some cases, go out with "friends" (guys) she just met on Facebook or that she had just met days before and pass them off as friends.

Am I being unreasonable to assume that in a committed relationship each person should not go out drinking/dinner dates if you really don't know them? Or at least if you do, you should offer to introduce them to your partner or invite them along? She had one make friend she met back up with on Match.com and she would go out to dinner with him and drive past my place on her way to hang out at his house with until after midnight with at times and not come se me or even call me or text me. I'm feeling really paranoid about it now. I wouldn't have done that to her without including her. Am I wrong?

[BigBen]

Geez, there are a lot of typos in that. My apologies. Mostly fixed, I think.

[BigBen]

Sorry. I'm new at this.

[JoannaK]

Actually, each couple gets to make up these rules themselves, for their relationship.  If the two people can't come to an agreement or a reasonable compromise that they both can live with, then they probably should terminate their relationship.  

If my partner met women anywhere (other than work) during the time we were together and wanted to see them for dinner... .without me... . I would strongly object.  I'm sure he would do the same.  If it was a work connection, then the meetings should be short and appropriate.  If it was an "old friend", somebody that he knew before we were a couple, it would depend.  

Hanging out very late with a "friend" of the opposite sex?  Nope... .I wouldn't accept that.  

[BigBen]

Actually, each couple gets to make up these rules themselves, for their relationship.  If the two people can't come to an agreement or a reasonable compromise that they both can live with, then they probably should terminate their relationship.  

If my partner met women anywhere (other than work) during the time we were together and wanted to see them for dinner... .without me... . I would strongly object.  I'm sure he would do the same.  If it was a work connection, then the meetings should be short and appropriate.  If it was an "old friend", somebody that he knew before we were a couple, it would depend.  

Hanging out very late with a "friend" of the opposite sex?  Nope... .I wouldn't accept that.  

I understand what you mean by saying each couple have their own rules. But she said she was monogamous. I was confused by her actions. All I asked was to meet them or to be able to hang with them just once. She refused - said I was controlling. Hell, I'm even a veteran of an open marriage (for the sake of my daughter).

[trife]

In my experience, "friends" of the opposite sex that aren't mutual friends of the couple generally is a bad move.  It's one thing if you're in a casual relationship.  But if you're in a committed relationship, there is no way that putting yourself in position to potentially be unfaithful is a good idea.  And anyone that WOULD do that in a committed relationship really should be questioned by their SO.     

We're all wired to cheat given the time and opportunity.  The key is protecting your SO and yourself from being put into those tempting situations.  This was a major problem with my undiagnosed stbxw, but her problem was texting men she was "friendly" with.  She would swear up and down that it was nothing, but that all changed when I found out she was banging one of them.  But even after that happened, she still couldn't grasp why I took issue with her texting male co-workers.    And EVERY time I stood firm on this boundary she FREAKED and said the relationship just would never work out.   

The fact that you're on this board asking this question lets me know you REALLY know deep down something is wrong with this scenario.  Go with your gut, my friend.  It rarely fails you.   

[BigBen]

I did ask her. She flipped completely out. It was like I tapped into all this HATRED. All I said is that it didn't sound like much of a relationship. She started calling me names and actually mocked me during the discussion. Eventually, this became the silent treatment. She won't even speak with me now.

[thisblonde]

Her not speaking to you may be the best thing that's happened to you if during this silence you get enough clarity to understand r/s with BPD come with an expiration date, and are a dead end road.  Best to exit now and keep trucking the other direction.  Take care!

[2010]

I agree with thisblonde. Best to exit now.

This was a set-up to fail from the start. Remember, Borderlines mirror- and they conceptualize the mirroring into their own facts. Often, these facts do not represent the truth, nor do they distinguish between good intentions- but they do have an amazing laser precision for weak spots that are interpreted as an Achilles heel- which Borderlines then manipulate with punishing behaviors. A Borderline will walk into an open relationship and then slowly tighten the noose. Any attempt to restore logic will be criticized. The only thing left for them to do is lash out at your weakness.

Hell, I'm even a veteran of an open marriage (for the sake of my daughter).

This is going to be punished by the Borderline. An open marriage resonates as a conceptual freedom to you- but it also states a lack of boundary to an attachment and obvious triangulation (read definition) of other people- This companion *need* appeals to the Borderline at first as they mirror your concept of the missing link (the want = their new identity) one that you "supposed" was/is lacking in your marriage. You hold the *pleasurable ego* that she needs to create this person in your mind- and she studies and listens to you intently- turning herself into the want/need with chameleon like grace. She now mirrors this false self back to you- and she derives satisfaction from your eyes, as she sees herself as the good object. This good object will now be used to test your boundaries further.

So she takes your initial concept of a lack of boundaries (open marriage kind of guy) and then adds on punishing behaviors- testing commitment. Silent treatment? Check. Concern over other women? check. Control issues? check. What you initially presented is now a problem- but not to her- Since her concept of commitment went by the wayside with the open marriage history- She does not have to commit to you- only torture you with push/pull behaviors. This concept of open marriage, you see, is the perfect petri dish for Borderline acting out behaviors against engulfment and abandonment.

What kind of Woman starts seeing a man with a history of an open marriage and says it's okay- then says it's not? A Borderline. The lack of boundaries may seem like freedom at first- but the borderline needs attachment- and is frustrated when she doesn't get it- and frustrated further when you try to impose rules after the fact- either way, BPD isn't a disorder of self awareness- it's a disorder of the *lack* of self awareness.  Which means she mirrors others- and without well defined boundaries from the beginning, it is the perfect setting for her to disappear on you, making it seem all the more like it's your fault and what you really wanted all along.

[BigBen]

I didn't want an open relationship. I told her that was my history. I'm not opposed to it, depending upon the situation or the people in a given relationship. After I saw how she was behaving: the dates with men, meeting up with men who were complete strangers she had met on FB for dinners or drinks,  I asked her if she wanted one. Hell, I know now there is no winning.

[seeking balance]

I do so enjoy my daily dose of 2010 posts!

[BigBen]

it is an awesome post.

[innerspirit]

Neither my X or I had been in open relationships.  But with X, there often seemed an air of protesting too much, lots of levels of projection to mess with reality.

Truth was and is that I have some very close, very platonic male friends -- several guys are like brothers to me.  It's with a solid and healthy boundary that isn't crossed on either side.  And they considered X a friend.

But X insisted on projecting a whole other scenario.  It was tinged with voyeurism along with the threat of his wrath -- makes me wonder if he would have been "fulfilled" in a way by a more torrid story.  It would confirm to him what a "catch" he had in me, plus give him some bizarro vicarious rush.  And therefore, justification to unleash his barely restrained temper.

Meanwhile, in real life, he was out one night a week flirting with a bunch of gay guys.  And saying that their attention was better than none.  While pushing me away.

Maybe he was after my male friends, who knows.

[BigBen]

I have platonic female friends - all of whom were deemed "whores". One of my closest female friends even came to my place to cook Indian for us (my ex's favorite). My ex acted like a complete ass.

I was introduced to one of her frequent male companions very briefly. I was never permitted to hang out with them or to get to know them -  even after what was basically 14 month on and off relationship. She keeps things very compartmentalized. I imagine she is whoever she is with or she manipulates everyone so keeps everyone seperated.

I did start protesting the situation. Think it is a wierd way to have a relationship. Maybe I'm just a stick in the mud though. IDK.

I have to admit - I did suspect the cuckolding thing with her.

[JoannaK]

Ben, are you happy with the way things are in your relationship?

[BigBen]

No way. It is over and done with. I'm just spewing/sharing my experiences. Plus, need to make sure I didn't lose my mind in the process of knowing her. Just realized I misspelled weird up there - bothers me.

[innerspirit]

BigBen -- sounds to me like she was messing with you and giving herself a twisted sense of power in the process.  Cuckolded or not, you weren't to be given solid ground in the relationship with her -- she seems to have fed on the sense of doubt she tried to arouse in you.  Who knows whether the other guys knew about it, were knowing parts of the scheme, or if they were each treated as "the one".  Or E, some of all of the above, so that they were baited but didn't feel they had solid footing either.

And by calling your female friends whores, she added to the assumption that all friends of the opposite sex are by definition threats to your relationship with her.  Maybe she created sainthood for herself for all the temptation she was inviting and avoiding.  Or objectified/rationalized her own infidelity --- people being animals after all. 

What would be a woman's equivalent of misogny (a man's hatred of women)?  Misterogny?  (No, that sounds like hatred of Mr. Rogers.  Haha.)

It seems beyond a simple hatred and exploitation of men, though -- everyone you describe, regardless of gender, seems to have been deprived of what would make them good or even individual as people.  They were just relegated to having a pre-ordained role in her drama.

I was at a bookstore the other day, and outside they had a giant size chessboard -- the chesspieces were maybe 3 feet tall but still easily moveable.  Reminds me of your situation.  Everyone seems to have had a role on the giant board and all as conquests, could be moved around at her will.  And it was her choice whether or not to blindfold the chesspieces.

An open relationship?  It wouldn't allow her the intrigue and game-playing.

[mindful]

Thank you 2010.  Gave me some perspective about the mirroring issues.  Just before my X left suddenly for the other guy---  she came back to me... .stayed the night.  That evening after we had sex (not love) she was telling me that she had it worked out from the night before, was going to leave me, and now she was not sure.  It was as though proximity and time together brought her favor (kind of).  When she took off for work the next morning that was the last I have seen of her.  She said she was going to a friend's house to think about things when in fact she went to this guy's house and moved in.  I believe her new guy knew if he didn't possess her she would probably stray.  Shortly after that I refused to see her when she wanted to get together--- for the first time I wondered if she was really going to punish me at a meeting.  I found out later she got married to him on our pre-paid vacation.   If I had met with her I feared she was going to watch my reaction as she told me she was going to marry him on our trip.  I think she needed me to get angry and distance myself from her.  I was the source of all her problems now.  This was the first time I looked after myself and deeply allowed myself to believe cruelty was a part of her pattern.  And to watch out !

To Big Ben:  I can sympathize with your trying to understand the "friend" standard.  It is tough when we are in the position of trying to be so fair.  And when I have been there in the past I have wondered now if my attempting to be so fair was really my attempt at defending myself, and ignoring the messages my body had given me.  The drinking argument was a maddening one for me.  I didn't like and feared the changes when she drank.  She ignored my pain, my feelings--- and this I believe is where verbal abuse came in----(She would try to change my perceptions) and she said that I didn't like her drinking because my dad was an alcoholic--- I was too sensitive.    If she loved me--- she would have respected my feeling, explored the issue compassionately, and we could have come to an agreement together as to whether this was going to work.   If I had loved myself more I would have done something for myself that would have not repeatedly been putting myself in her drinking moods.  We stopped going to one restaurant because they served these Wild West Martinis---   One of the last things she told me in a relationship discussion was that "I would never get used to the drinking thing".  The boundary thing is so important.  While I think discussing boundary concepts with others is so important--- make sure that the boundaries are yours and firm.  Have them formed from your emotional signals.  Don't negotiate them away for anyone's approval.  I did.  Sounds like all your signals are there.  When my boundaries are being questioned I try to keep focused on my body's signals and less on the fairness question.   This has been a big challenge for me. 

[innerspirit]

While I think discussing boundary concepts with others is so important--- make sure that the boundaries are yours and firm.  Have them formed from your emotional signals.  Don't negotiate them away for anyone's approval.  I did.  Sounds like all your signals are there.  When my boundaries are being questioned I try to keep focused on my body's signals and less on the fairness question.   This has been a big challenge for me. 

That's huge -- it feels almost counter-intuitive but that in itself is the issue, like we're taught to ignore such intuition and the emotional signals.  In my case, the conditioning goes way back into childhood -- keeping the peace and getting others' approval nearly erased the awareness of, the need for having my own boundaries. 

Thank you for making such a crucial point.  To be mindful of it.  Indeed.