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Author Topic: BPDs vs. non-BPDs: Should we be admitting more than we are?  (Read 419 times)
gentleman66
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« on: July 25, 2010, 12:07:12 PM »

 I have read a couple of threads here  including "Right, How many of you have read here and thought is it me with borderline?"  and "The man, the mirror and possibly acceptance?" that  raises some fundamental questions for me.

First, someone mentioned that  "BPD is a disease that exists to deny itself." I am wondering if we non-BPDs who have been in relationships with BPDs  have a mild version of BPD. Could it be that we recognize the BPD traits in our partners  but we deny that  we  have or share some of the traits with BPD? As much as they project their BPD traits on us we may also project such  traits on our BPD partners. Could it be that we BPD but unlike BPDs we acknowledge its existence  yet we  deny we have BPD traits by finding refuge on these boards and projecting onto our BPD partners.  I am not  sure if I am making any sense here.

We all acknowledge that there must be something going on with us to be attracted to BPDs. For some like myself, it has happened more than once. Could it be that BPD attract BPDS. The difference with us who post here is that we acknowledge and recognize that something is wrong with the relationship while  our partners' defense mechanism prevents them from recognizing BPD traits.


So I may be repeating what has already been said by  TurtleSoup and PhoenixBorn in previous posts, but I am just trying to think out loud. Why else would we have a difficult time to go no  contact? Why else do we have a hard time to move on? I am not saying we are the exact mirror of our BPD partner. If that was the case, then we would not be on these boards trying to  make sense of our experiences and our relationships.

Maybe we have a mild version of BPD as well.
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seeking balance
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 02:36:09 PM »

I think that is the crux of it right, we nons do admit our faults, our weaknesses, feel our feelings - something that true pwBPD are not capable of really doing.  They don't just say, "I am sorry, I was wrong, have a bad feeling that they don't blame on us."  All us nons seem to be capable of admitting our short-comings.  We absorb short-comings that pwBPD put on us that might not be true.

Regarding letting go - for me, I believed everything she told me - hook, line & sinker.  I know I am grieving a dream or an image - but that was very real to me.  I took my wedding vows seriously, that is why I am having a hard time letting go.  I understand logically, but my emotions do not match my head yet.  My emotions continue to float between the false relationship and my new reality - not integrated at all.
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justwantout
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 03:22:18 PM »

Well, I've thought about this and here is my take. (lots has been posted on this so If I'm repeating something already said... .sorry)

I've been married to a man that was diagnosed with BPD, we've been together 10 years.  Thats a LONG time to deal with BPD's irrational, illogical, crazy behavior.  So can I see some of his "traits" in me at this point, sure.  But I believe it comes down to environment and survival.  For example, after years of cold silent treatments I started reacting the same way, he would cut me off, I would cut him off, it was just easier than trying to deal with him.  But I think its more of you know there is no rationalizing with them so you've no choice but to throw the same behavior back at them.  Make any since?  I've thought back to my life before he entered it, I did not behave this way.  And more importantly, I've reviewed the BPD DSM 9 criteria, I don't even come close to answering yes to one of those questions.  So I think if your questioning your own sanity with the whole BPD thing that is the best place to start. I'm not saying that as group we don't have our own issues, anyone that puts up with the behavior we all have for so long obviously has something going on but BPD... .don't think thats it. 
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David Dare
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 03:42:06 PM »

I think a part of our possible BPDism is established by being in proximity of them.  We inherit some of their behavior because we are unaware of what we are dealing with and we feel comfortable... .until it gets dysfunctional.  I kept thinking I was dealing with someone who has issues and was just acting immaturely.  I knew that she could possibly be lying, trying to manipulate, etc, but always gave her the benefit of the doubt.

It takes an honest assessment of oneself to reach an honest answer (am I BPD or not?), and self-diagnosis is discouraged.  As for me, I know for a fact that I don't live my life with the same lack of caution and fervent promiscuity that my ex does.  She is on her 4th or 5th guy since being with me a year ago.  I also know for a fact that I never lied to her for whatever reason - to hide something I had done, or set her up for a disloyal act.  If anything, I am guilty of getting too invested in the relationship too quickly, putting her needs well ahead of my own, and losing my grip on a realistic perception of what was happening.

I think we are admitting the things we can put our finger on.  It's a bit embarrassing to admit to ourselves that we'd been duped by a mentally ill person.  It's sensitive stuff with consequences that don't reveal themselves so easily, because, in fact, it was us lying to (hiding from) ourselves. 
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 03:44:54 PM »

I also know for a fact that I never lied to her for whatever reason - to hide something I had done, or set her up for a disloyal act.  If anything, I am guilty of getting too invested in the relationship too quickly, putting her needs well ahead of my own, and losing my grip on a realistic perception of what was happening.

Could not have said this better
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 05:23:43 PM »

As for myself, I am co-dependent at this point. I knew this going into the relationship with her, I have just run through a rough patch in life. Our relationship brought allot more co-dependency out of me though, more than I have ever felt before. I completely saw the problems and continued to walk into them until she left me for good. What amazes me, I still want her back... .
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JoannaK
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 05:24:42 PM »

There is an expression to describe the partner's adoption of some BPD-ish behaviors during or after a relationship:   "Fleas".  

It's hard to stay in a dysfunctional relationship for any length of time and remain completely "normal".  

I don't think that most people in relationships with someone they think has BPD actually have BPD themselves, but it is likely that they have "something":  Some dysfunction within themselves that allowed them to stay in a dysfunctional and often abusive relationship after the dysfunction or abuse became apparent.  For everybody here who is "caught" by a BPD partner, there are many who saw something difficult right away and walked away from the relationship.

We can look at issues of our families of origin, perhaps abuse in our childhoods; perhaps we were at a vulnerable time in our lives, etc. etc.  Someone 100% emotionally healthy will simply not get involved with someone seriously disordered.  
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 05:34:00 PM »

Someone 100% emotionally healthy will simply not get involved with someone seriously disordered. 

Yes, I was clear about my ACOA/abandonment issues going into this and thought that I had worked through them in therapy and such.  She knew to manipulate me with this and then use it against me when I would question inconsistent behavior.  I would then go into the circle of looking at myself, was this my issue, whats really going on here- ok, let that one go, calm for a couple months and then it would all start up again. 
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BewilderBear

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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 06:47:50 PM »

This is an interesting question found all over these boards in different forms, and one I have asked myself.  It goes deep onto the idea of "disordered" behavior.  When with a BPD partner we find ourselves getting pulled into patterns of behavior that are not just reactive to the BPDs.  I know I did.  I think it's important to understand that this is an intimacy disorder that compounds from the behavior of 2 people interacting.  Our no doubt typical responses, whether positive or negative, or "normal", are part of the disorder themselves.  All of us have to some degree some of the diagnostic criteria for BPD.  The difference is the psychological cluster of behaviors and motivation behind the disordered behaviors, and the degree.  People with BPD are known to be very good at identifying/targeting others who will be extremely susceptible to their needs/manipulation/crazy-making behaviors.  This seems to be a relatively unconscious skill they have, according to some papers/articles I've read.  I think that in a v real way our BPD partner is not only reliving abandonment in relationships, but trying to cause it in their partners in ways that seem often v vengeful from the pain they feel. The betrayals, the depersonalization, the emotional detachment, the anger, the one-sidedness of the intimacy, all cause real pain and scars that have peculiarly similar impacts on our behavior to the symptoms of BPD.  

I am just now starting to date very healthy woman and noticing just how many trust scars I have from 2 former relationships with women that had BPD.  I have disturbingly found myself projecting fears and expectations about what was happening in healthy, benign circumstances due to these scars.  I think we have to accept that an intimate encounter with a partner with BPD will leave us with scars and insecurities that are similar to those at the root of the disorder.  The difference is that we have the self awareness and the ability to take responsibility for our own behavior enough to heal.  Not to mention a knowledge of the respect and emotional understanding people w BPD find so hard to comprehend - things required for true intimacy.  That you are here questioning these things and aware of them in yourself proves you are capable of the self awareness that will eventually heal you from the self-doubt an encounter with a BPD partner will inevitably cause in us.
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 07:26:46 PM »

Excerpt
"BPD is a disease that exists to deny itself."

1) BPD is NOT a disease. It is a character disorder. And since it is a character disorder- there is *no* medicine that prevents it nor cures it-  It is a behavior that is in response from the failure to develop a self. It is a developmental arrest. It is NOT a disease. (Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this and everyone with BPD would be taking a pill.)

2) Character is formed. It consists of Denial. Denial is the strongest defensive posture that any of us can have when we are attacked vis-à-vis: our character. Everyone has denial when their character is attacked.

3) People with personality disorders are not untreatable. They need to understand how they formulated their response system based on early adaptations. Later acting out behaviors seem to take precedence and are a cover or mask for early adaptations. It's important to dig deeply into the past to see the onset of the behavior and why it happened- This applies to everyone, not just people with personality disorders. The truth becomes apparent for most people when they see the training along the way.
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gentleman66
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 08:26:10 PM »

Excerpt
"BPD is a disease that exists to deny itself."

1) BPD is NOT a disease. It is a character disorder. And since it is a character disorder- there is *no* medicine that prevents it nor cures it-  It is a behavior that is in response from the failure to develop a self. It is a developmental arrest. It is NOT a disease. (Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this and everyone with BPD would be taking a pill.)

2) Character is formed. It consists of Denial. Denial is the strongest defensive posture that any of us can have when we are attacked vis-à-vis: our character. Everyone has denial when their character is attacked.

3) People with personality disorders are not untreatable. They need to understand how they formulated their response system based on early adaptations. Later acting out behaviors seem to take precedence and are a cover or mask for early adaptations. It's important to dig deeply into the past to see the onset of the behavior and why it happened- This applies to everyone, not just people with personality disorders. The truth becomes apparent for most people when they see the training along the way.

I agree  with you that it is not a disease. I was merely quoting someone else on the boards. But thanks for the clarification again. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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innerspirit
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 08:53:45 PM »

Excerpt
"BPD is a disease that exists to deny itself."

1) BPD is NOT a disease. It is a character disorder. And since it is a character disorder- there is *no* medicine that prevents it nor cures it-  It is a behavior that is in response from the failure to develop a self. It is a developmental arrest. It is NOT a disease. (Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this and everyone with BPD would be taking a pill.)

2) Character is formed. It consists of Denial. Denial is the strongest defensive posture that any of us can have when we are attacked vis-à-vis: our character. Everyone has denial when their character is attacked.

3) People with personality disorders are not untreatable. They need to understand how they formulated their response system based on early adaptations. Later acting out behaviors seem to take precedence and are a cover or mask for early adaptations. It's important to dig deeply into the past to see the onset of the behavior and why it happened- This applies to everyone, not just people with personality disorders. The truth becomes apparent for most people when they see the training along the way.

I agree  with you that it is not a disease. I was merely quoting someone else on the boards. But thanks for the clarification again.

Hi --- the quote was mine, and I think the wording is the disorder than exists to deny itself.  Thanks for the correction.

I'm intrigued by the question "should we be admitting more that we are?"  For me, my voice had to be heard first.  X has lived a double life among a big community of our friends and colleagues, and to quite a few therapists.  I was exploited over and over again because his behavior wasn't witnessed, so therefore he could lie and misrepresent and get away with it every time, at least in his eyes.

When I have finally felt heard (in individual therapy and finding this precious sense of community here), that's when I've been able to let down my defenses and take a closer look at myself.  Certainly I developed some fleas, and there are personal factors which led to my relationship with X and the length of time that I stayed.

There is an expression to describe the partner's adoption of some BPD-ish behaviors during or after a relationship:   "Fleas".  

It's hard to stay in a dysfunctional relationship for any length of time and remain completely "normal".  

I don't think that most people in relationships with someone they think has BPD actually have BPD themselves, but it is likely that they have "something":  Some dysfunction within themselves that allowed them to stay in a dysfunctional and often abusive relationship after the dysfunction or abuse became apparent.  For everybody here who is "caught" by a BPD partner, there are many who saw something difficult right away and walked away from the relationship.

We can look at issues of our families of origin, perhaps abuse in our childhoods; perhaps we were at a vulnerable time in our lives, etc. etc.  Someone 100% emotionally healthy will simply not get involved with someone seriously disordered.  

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