what if

[Disgruntled]

I am just thinking out loud right now... .so I don't contact her.  I watched the movie '500 Days of Summer' and WOW if you have not watched it yet, I highly recommend it.  I esp loved the part when it shows him happy and dancing the day after they first slept together and then the next frame shows him like at day 200 coming out of the elevator looking like death... .yup... .I can relate. 

So anyway... .that movie got me thinking a lot.  I was not like the guy in the movie with my exBPD.  I was like the guy she ended up marrying.  I was told I was different not only by her, but by her friends and family (before being painted black).  I have seen her exes and lets just say that... .yes I am very different.  My exBPD is very attractive and successful and seemed to sell herself short in all of her most recent relationships (well at least that is what I thought at the time... .now I would not wish her on anyone).  She even told me one time, she dated people who were not as attractive because she new they would not leave her.  HOWEVER, then she met me.  I am not unattractive (at least I don't think so) and I am... .well was fairly confident... .not to mention a bit younger.  She constantly told me I was the love of her life... .she is 45... .said she loved me from the first second she saw me... .she literally did trip when I was walking up to introduce myself. We spent pretty much everyday together after that.  I started to notice the red flags fairly soon... .but just blew them off because I knew I was not in love with her yet and figured if things got too crazy I would just quit seeing her... .WRONG!  I let her suck me in... .as we all did.  She wanted me to live with her... .she wanted the whole 9 yards.  However, even though I was the one she said she wanted... .she always kept the scary exes around her (I mean alcoholics, drug addicts).  Of course they were at her beckon call because she made them feel wonderful... .well when she did not make them feel horrible.  I knew that she was using them, I just did not know why.  I always told her she did not have feelings for these people... .I mean it was abundantly clear to me... .she would only contact them if we were fighting and she agreed but she needed people to want her.   

I noticed that she was drinking A LOT!  Our problems started to get worse after about month 4 of living together.  I attributed it to the drinking... .I thought she was an alcoholic (well she is an alcholoic with a twist of BPD).  She quit drinking went to rehab and then to AA.  I supported her... .I went to AL-ANON and I quit drinking too (I don't drink much anyway).  She was clean for a little over a two months... .then we had a disagreement over something stupid and she went out, bought a 12 pack and the drinking started again. 

Things continued to get a lot worse.  Then a few months ago, she was like out of the blue "I think I may have Borderline Personality Disorder".  She had looked up her symptoms herself on the internet... .which I thought was promising... .she knew something was wrong.  I then read about borderline personality disorder and I would say on a BPD scale of 1-10... .she is a 10.5.  She went to a thearapist... .on her own who agreed she could have it.  She has since been officially diagnosed with it. 

So... .I am feeling like... .this woman has had this disorder her whole life.  She has been married twice, had multiple relationships... .but what if I am different in her mind.  She went through rehab because she thought it would help our relationship.  She has now accepted that she has BPD and is now seeing a thearapist/doctor twice a week and going through DBT classes. I remember one time we had a fight and she said that if I left she would go F^&% someone... .I left... .however returned a few hours later.  She was just sitting there crying when I returned and said she always used to have someone on the back burner she could go F^&*... .but she didn't have or even want anyone else (It may sound messed up, but coming from a BPD... .it was endearing) What about me made her do decide she needed help?  Now I just feel guilty because I am the one who apparently inspired her to get better... .and I abandoned her. There is a lot of drama I have left out because I literally could type a novel... .but my previous post have hit on a lot of it. It has been a terrible relationship and I am desperately trying to move on with my life. I just feel guilty now... .like maybe she did love me... .in her own screwed up little BPD kinda way. 

[Lakme]

Hey Disgruntled,

x

Just keep reminding yourself that no one is responsible for how she responds to things but her.  No one is responsible for her feelings but her.

It's great that she is at least willing to acknowledge her BPD and seek therapy for it -- that's more than 99% of the rest of them are willing to do, from what I've seen. But that has to be something she is doing *for herself* -- not to please you or anyone else.

Hang in there -- you'll adjust to life apart soon enough and so will she.  Just give it time.

      

[Im.okay.now]

It has been a terrible relationship and I am desperately trying to move on with my life. I just feel guilty now... .like maybe she did love me... .in her own screwed up little BPD kinda way.

Maybe she did love you ? she probably did just like you describe ... ."in her own BPD way"

But in your words quote from above "it was a terrible relationship" ... .is that really what you want for yourself ?

You have nothing to feel guilty about ... .there is nothing to feel guilty about wanting to move on and move away from a "terrible relationship". You are second-guessing and doubting yourself. This is normal. 

So does it matter if she did love you or not ? ... .the end result for you would be a "terrible relationship" ... .i'm sure that you deserve better and that this is the time think of yourself.

Take care

ION

[Long Distance]

"Terrible Relationship" Is a perfect description ... .Its ALL BEEN TERRIBLE for us ... .We just don't get it through our thick skulls ... Because we are too kind and forgiving ... And there is the rub ... .They know that because we have forgiven over and over again ... .if we had said "hit_ Off " from the first BS incident ... We would not be where we are ALL at today ... .Learn from this and learn to say hit_ OFF at the first sign of BS - Doing that will protect you and your future for ever more ... .Listen people - There are NO HAPPY ENDINGS WITH A BORDERLINE EVER - (That's my mantra ) and I totally believe in it - You Guys Should To -

Peace

Long Distance

[Disgruntled]

All of you are right and my brain knows that... .it is just my heart that is a dumbass.  I need to stop reading things that make me believe that she can recover.  She just started DBT and EVEN if she does one day recover... .it won't be anytime soon.  I am 32 and she is 45... I am too young and will miss out on too much if I wait on the possibility the she may one day be capable of a loving relationship.  My problem is I have read that it is important for a BPD's recovery that they have a stable and consistant partner.  I know she is trying to get better... .and I just feel like she will fail if I am not a part of it.  I do genuinely believe she wants help... .she initiated it... .however there is no guarantee it will work. Right now... .I am so screwed up emotionally... .one minute I am forgiving... .the next... .I hate her.  I am not able to be  stable or consistent at this point anyway. 

[Long Distance]

You are sounding just like her ... And thinking like her ... Love and Hate ... Back and Forth - confused ? YOU WILL BE - Its not recovery they get ... Its the ability to maintain the madness ... .That does not mean it will not happen again ... It could quite easily come back at anytime and then go back to being stable ... .What a way to live and wake up every morning thinking could this be "The Day " Man ... They can leave you forever one day ... Just like popping out to get some milk ... .Straight in to someone elses arms and life ... Without even a glance back ... .F##K living like that man ... .I promise that you will be so unhappy with yourself ... Man we only live one life that we can confirm confidently ... .Why not learn from this ... So it never happens to you again ... You can never be abused by anyone again ... If you have done the reading and read the stories on here and have taken it on board ... You will run from the first few red flags and the odd weird comment ... .You now have the skills to recognize that ... Than means your future is bright ... But NOT WITH THAT WOMAN - YA HEAR

Peace

Long Distance 

[Disgruntled]

Your right I do sound like I have black and  white thinking... .however I am stewing about all of the grey stuff.  I feel like I fell in love with a brick... .and now I am frusterated that the brick won't  say the right thing to make me feel better... .not to mention... .I feel stupid for allowing myself to fall in love with a brick to begin with!

[Hazelnut]

Hi Disgruntled-- I was also a member of the May/December club, but in reverse. I've been doing a lot of what-iffing also: what if I had known all about BPD; what if I could've encouraged therapy; what if he gets all better and I miss out on that; etc. But I was kicked to the curb so it's a moot point. 

What about me made her do decide she needed help?  Now I just feel guilty because I am the one who apparently inspired her to get better... .and I abandoned her.

Who knows what was/is inside her head. The thing is, they have BPD; they're not insane. They can have moments of clarity just like we do. Mine knew full well he had mental health issues-- he told me himself. He had therapy, he quit therapy, who knows what's happening now. Do you really think she's going to heal anytime soon, if she hasn't in 45 years? You deserve someone who can show up for a happy, healthy relationship TODAY.

I feel like I fell in love with a brick... .and now I am frusterated that the brick won't  say the right thing to make me feel better... .not to mention... .I feel stupid for allowing myself to fall in love with a brick to begin with!

Don't be too hard on yourself-- people fall for imperfect people all the time, because nobody's perfect. People with mental illness deserve love, too, BUT... .can she show up for a healthy relationship with you?  Also, don't look for the answers from a brick  because the brick just cannot do it. The answer is... .there is no answer. Mental illness isn't neat and tidy.

[David Dare]

There is a thin line that divides perception and reality.  And when we are in committed relationships, fall in love, etc, that thin line is then blurred.  That is why it's so easy to go back and forth, doubting ourselves.  At one point we felt the positive aspects of that relationship on a deep level.  It felt good.  And then BPD reared its ugly head.  Suddenly, we are trapped and confused, thinking we can conquer it and go back to the good old days.

PwBPD look normal!  My ex does.  Folks who don't get enmeshed with them and experience the roller coaster have no idea what it's like.  I remember thinking "Man, so many people light up when my ex enters a room.  Maybe her disorder is all in my head".  It just adds to the self-doubt.

I am the forgiving, optimistic type who wants to believe that everyone has good in them and can change if they just try hard enough.  But after months of pondering the situation, I have to agree with Long Distance.  It sounds cruel to be blunt about the wackiness of BPD, but I think it's best way for folks like me to get over it while defending our own value.  PwBPD are who they are.  We didn't make them that way.  It isn't our problem.

[Lakme]

Hey Disgruntled,

Perhaps this clarifying exercise will help.  You can answer the questions here if you would find that helpful, but certainly don't feel you have to as the answers will likely feel very personal to you.  This is an exercise for *you* ... .to help YOU get clear on what path to choose as you move forward.  It's not a short exercise -- you may want to wait until you have a couple of hours of uninterrupted quiet time to reflect to do it.

The idea is to describe your vision for your best life -- your ideal future.   

1) In this ideal future, are you married?   If so, describe the character and personality of your ideal wife.

2) Do you have children with your spouse?   If so, describe the way your spouse interacts with the children, and how the two of you interact with one another around caring for and disciplining the children.

3) Where do you live and why?  (i.e. city, suburbs, or rural?  house, townhouse, or apartment? close to your family members with regular contact with them or far away from them?)

4) What kind of work are you doing?  And what about your spouse?  Full time or part time?

5) What is your religious practice?  Is it important that your spouse share that belief system and practice?  If not, what are the acceptable alternatives -- or would anything be okay with you?

6) As conflict is inevitable, to some extent, even in the happiest and most functional relationships, in your best life, how do you and your spouse interact when there is conflict?  What ground rules do you have for disagreeing respectfully?

7) What, if any, hobbies would you like to be able to share with your spouse?

8) What would your ideal sexual relationship be like with your spouse?

There are more questions that would be useful to answer but that's a good start. 

Now look at how you answered those questions and try to discern, with as much intellectual and emotional honesty as possible, how likely it is that your pwBPD could ever align herself with that vision you have for your ideal future and stay in alignment with that vision over the long haul?

The thing that has always alarmed me about personality disorders is the fact that, even with years of treatment, there is no guarantee the person will not backslide, and (as Long Distance correctly pointed out) there's no guarantee they won't eventually get worse.

My BPDxh seemed to get better for a few years -- he was even occasionally kind and solicitous.  We've been divorced for over 14 years, and this last year he has been awful. Every phone conversation is an exercise in verbal aikido (i.e. redirecting his negative energy ~away~ from me or my boys and in a harmless direction).  His tone is consistently angry, his attitude brittle and inflexible, his responses to me and my boys puzzlingly defensive, distorted, paranoid, and hostile.

Suffice it to say I am looking forward to the day when our younger son turns 18 and I no longer have to interact with him for ANY reason whatsoever.

So... .think long and hard before you decide to recommit yourself to a life with someone where your role would likely involve walking alternately on eggshells... .and broken glass.  Unless you have a substantial appetite for martyrdom, or the patience and self-confidence of a saint, a long-term relationship with a pwBPD is not generally geared to guarantee long-term happiness for either party -- the pwBPD can't be happy because their locus of control is so completely externalized... .and you can't be happy because they're in Hell, and they want to make sure they're not there alone so they will generally make sure you always have a free ride on the fast train to join them there.

      

[2010]

I watched the movie '500 Days of Summer' and WOW if you have not watched it yet, I highly recommend it.  I esp loved the part when it shows him happy and dancing the day after they first slept together and then the next frame shows him like at day 200 coming out of the elevator looking like death... .yup... .I can relate.

“It just wasn’t me that you were right about.” That’s the observation made by Summer concerning Tom’s idea of soulmates and fate and destiny on the 499th day.

By the 500th day, he meets Autumn, who tells him that she’s “seen him before, in the plaza.” He responds by saying he’s never seen her- and her answer is that he “probably wasn’t looking.”

The reality is that Tom was focusing his attention elsewhere and he couldn’t see anything or anyone other than Summer.  Tom’s ideal of himself was held captive in his ideal (projected on to Summer.)   From the minute he laid eyes on her, he supposes, evaluates, conjects, and then projects onto her his own version of himself.  This happens while friends, family and even Summer try to temper his illusions of fantasy and prevent him from merging his idealized self in another human being.

Meanwhile, his employment at a greeting card company- writing trite and sentimental utterances for commercial usage flourishes. Is it any wonder that his job performance is inspired when he projects his idealized version of himself onto a muse?  His fantasy serves his greeting card facilitation.  Is it any wonder that he loses it when his muse goes away? The fantasy is not carried within him without another human to project it upon.  Not even himself.

The defining moment in the film is Tom’s overstepping of boundaries in physically assaulting a bar patron to personalize Summer’s perfectly capable verbal response to an unwanted advance.  It’s at that point that his clinging becomes toxic and she begins to realize that his projection on to her is unhealthy.

500 days of summer is a movie about projective identification.  “It’s not about a Woman, it’s about a phase in Tom’s life,” says the director, Marc Webb.  “Projective identification is... .at once a type of defense, a mode of communication, a primitive form of object relations, and a pathway for psychological change.” ~Ogden.

We see Tom lead Summer through the streets of L.A. in order to share his passion, architecture. But he works at a greeting card company instead of following his passion. He uses Summer as a sounding board for his hopes and dreams as well as a scapegoat for his failure to follow his hopes and dreams. 

In one of the final scenes between “anticipation and reality” she introduces him as an architect rather than a greeting card salesman. In his mind (fantasy) what he really wanted was to just be with Summer and write greeting cards.  When she gets engaged to someone else- he realizes that architecture is all he has left to love. It is a part of him that survived mirroring and being projected onto someone else.  It is his true love, his passion.

The film is a wonderful example of a post modern coming of age. It shows how we get sidetracked by fantasy and end up having to face reality in the end.  “Projective identification is a pathway for psychological change.”  Indeed. 

In Tom’s case it leads him toward his love, his truth, his reality- his passion of architecture- something he would have missed out on if he had stayed at the greeting card company and married Summer.

The film's message is about *Tom's* change rather than the change of the human being he projected upon, and as a consequence, his greatest work~ The path of Tom.

[mshell]

Disgruntled,

Yes, she did love you in her own BPD way. For her sake, I hope the therapy helps her. For you (and me, too), 2010 is right ... .

The film is a wonderful example of a post modern coming of age. It shows how we get sidetracked by fantasy and end up having to face reality in the end.  “Projective identification is a pathway for psychological change.”  Indeed. 

In Tom’s case it leads him toward his love, his truth, his reality- his passion of architecture- something he would have missed out on if he had stayed at the greeting card company and married Summer.

The film's message is about *Tom's* change rather than the change of the human being he projected upon, and as a consequence, his greatest work~ The path of Tom.

Unlike Tom, my relationship with my BPD-ex hasn't proven to have an outcome quite so obvious as a love for architecture. I don't feel like I have been lead to my great passion. I feel sucked dry, used up and broken. I sometimes feel as if I am the one who lacks a Self; that I am the one staring into the black abyss of emptiness. My nightmare is that he was right ... .I am the one with "issues"... .so many "fleas" I think I must be the pwBPD.

My T said to me that the switch flipped and I was painted black because in the mind of my ex, " I have issues, therefore I can't be trusted." I am no longer the idealized object.

Disgruntled, keep your energy focused on your own unfolding ... .one day at a time.

[Intent_to_learn]

Disgruntled, You have a wonderful capacity to love and you deserve to be loved in the same way.  She's out there somewhere in your future.  Your BPD ex has her own path in life and it is a painful path filled with the arduous task of coping with BPD. Even on her best day, her ability to relate to you authentically only peeks through all the defenses. Her task is to learn to separate and individuate. You deserve the love of a woman who can relate to you fully and wholly, but has her own passion in life that sustains her. Two autonomous people who meet in the middle and share their lives... .It's out there.  Keep the faith.

[Lakme]

(standing ovation for 10-ACT!)   

Beautifully said, 10-ACT.  I couldn't agree more!

      

[bluelotus9]

From 500 days of summer:

Since the disintegration of her parents marriage, she'd only loved 2 things, the first was her long dark hair, the second was hoe easily she could cut it off, and feel nothing... .

Later quote song: 'colour my life with the chaos of trouble'... .

Is this a a case of she was BPD & he was projective identification - match made in hell... .?

[2010]

she'd only loved 2 things, the first was her long dark hair, the second was how easily she could cut it off, and feel nothing... .

Borderline is an attachment disorder that frantically clutches on to things and people with feelings of distress. To lose something that's loved causes extreme emotional dysregulation and creates a fear of annihilation. For Summer to love her hair, and then not suffer a narcissistic injury when her hair is cut off- makes her a very healthy Woman. Freedom from attachment is exactly what teachers in dialectical behavioral therapy try to teach to Borderlines.

Later quote song: 'colour my life with the chaos of trouble'... .

"Color my life with the chaos of trouble 'cause anythings better than posh isolation."  The song lyric describes how it's better to live a colorful and energized life in a dangerous World than to hide inside in isolation.

Most people show signs of BPD and NPD in small doses. Personality disorders becomes malignant when the people suffering through them cannot see why their behavior is not working for them as they expected it would.  500 Days of Summer shows Tom's objectification of Summer as a rewarding object, when she comments on the music he is listening to. When Summer says she likes Ringo Starr, she fails to be a rewarding object and he begins to split her into a withdrawing object. When he mentions a band he likes, she says she's never heard of them- and he replies that of course she has, he made her a mix tape. She admits she didn't listen to it- and the withdrawing object becomes punishing in his mind. At that point he realizes that she's not rewarding him anymore and he begins to hate everything about her.  The rest of the movie is his bargaining with himself- as he tries to figure out what he did wrong to turn her into a withdrawing object- while you and I know that Summer stated clearly that she had boundaries. Eventually Tom understands that he was boundary crashing and  goes into a depression while turning to his real love (architecture) for comfort. "Color my life with the chaos of trouble 'cause anythings better than posh isolation" is the sentiment that finally gets him out of bed and on to the job interview.

It's better to live a colorful and energized life in a dangerous World than to hide inside. The only way to grow and live through depression is to meet the chaos within - make your way through it and figure out that everything once thought of as black and white can be made more acceptable with shades of Grey.  Eventually the World will have beautiful color.

"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star." — Friedrich Nietzsche

[bluelotus9]

she'd only loved 2 things, the first was her long dark hair, the second was how easily she could cut it off, and feel nothing... .

Borderline is an attachment disorder that frantically clutches on to things and people with feelings of distress. To lose something that's loved causes extreme emotional dysregulation and creates a fear of annihilation. For Summer to love her hair, and then not suffer a narcissistic injury when her hair is cut off- makes her a very healthy Woman. Freedom from attachment is exactly what teachers in dialectical behavioral therapy try to teach to Borderlines.

My take on the film is that she isn't that healthy. It would be healthy, if as you say, she'd been to therapy, but there was no evidence of that. I think it was dealing with her parents divorce that made her averse to attachment, I've seen it happen in real life with my ex's children - she was divorced (because of her extreme argumentativeness) when they were 4 and 6. I came on the scene a year later. The result of this was that one of them became aggressive to deal with it, and the other agreed with everything anybody said, but led a secret life. Neither of them trusted relationships... .

However, the guy in the film was very naive and over the top, and projecting like hell onto Summer. It was just a complete mismatch, however I would say she was the one with the bigger problem, he just needed to grow up and learn a sharp lesson... .

[Disgruntled]

bluelotus9 I agree with you in that I think Summer had more problems... .Tom may have been experiencing love for the first time.  We all know how it is to be in love for the first time... .it is overwhelming and it is exciting... .you almost want to climb into the skin of the person your in love with.  When you get older, and you have had your heart broken a few times, you do not approach love as you did when you were young. I do not think that Tom was as messed up as some people believe.  He was young, dumb and in love. Summer knew Tom had serious feelings for her and she DID continue to lead him on and send him mixed messages.  She would say things like she did not beleive in relationships but then grabbed Tom and kissed Tom. If she would have said, that she did not believe in relatonships and never kissed Tom... .that would have been more believable.  People with healthy emotions do not lead people on to that point (well that is what I beleive).  I have had people who were interested in me that I had no intrest in clearly expressed feelings for me and I do not lead them on at all because it is simply not nice... .because I have also had feelings for people who have not had them for me and I know it hurts if there are any mixed messages.

[Lakme]

Umm... .y'all... .it's just a movie?  With make-believe people in it... .?   

(grinning, ducking, giggling, running, hiding... .)

      

[2010]

Movies, Books, Great Literature, Music all inspire us and teach.

There’s a wonderful scene in the film called “the second opinion” where Tom goes out on a blind date, has a little too much to drink and begins to angrily vent. He admits that he thinks of Summer as “the only person in the entire Universe that could make me happy.” He then asks the blind date if she’s ever gone back and reviewed a relationship for signs of trouble.

We see a series of vignettes from previous days where Summer and Tom appeared to be happy. This time, the vignettes show a different story- Summer is obviously trying to prevent Tom from clinging to her and it’s obvious to everyone except Tom. This is the first time we see Tom from Summer’s point of view.  It’s the filmmaker’s supposition that Tom was in denial all along.

To counter his denial and avoid the journey toward abandonment depression, he states that Summer was either “an evil, emotionless, miserable human being or, she’s a robot,” which, either way, splits her black.

At this point, the blind date has heard enough and interjects- “Can I ask you a question? She never cheated on you?” No. Never.  “Did she ever take advantage of you in any way?”  No.  “And she told you up front that she didn’t want a boyfriend?” Um, yeah…  He then changes the subject and takes the blind date to sing Karaoke, and as the date leaves disgusted with him, he insults her as she walks out the door.

Tom doesn’t want to hear that he has any responsibility to his own state of mind. He doesn’t want to be told that maybe he forged ahead and didn’t listen to the clues. The clues weren’t really hidden at all- they were Summer’s boundaries, up front and visible.  Tom tried to merge through these boundaries and take Summer on- in his own *objectification* of her.

Summer’s boundaries were protections that provided her with being a healthy and separate individual.  That is the goal of the healthy SELF.  With Borderline personality disorder, there is a failure to separate and become an individual.  There is a failure to become the SELF.  Therefore Borderlines enmesh themselves in others by instantly clinging, they lead someone on by stating that they love them, and then they frantically push them away.

Summer never wanted to be enmeshed- she told him up front that she wasn’t looking for anything serious. She never changed her mind -although he hoped she would.  Clearly she does not have a problem with attachments because she commits to another Man and then marries him.   She is neither Schzoid nor avoidant- she is just searching and allowing human interaction while remaining separate and individual in life.

We do not see her cry, cajole or weepily cause drama. There is no see-sawing back and forth. We do not see her emotionally dysregulated at all.  It is Tom’s malignant optimism of enmeshment that keeps his denial of her boundaries.  He sees what he wants to see.  Later, and with the help of the voice over, we see him recognize his understanding in all of this- hence the director’s version of it being a “phase,” not a disorder. If Tom’s behavior had continued to cling/hate and act out- subsuming Summer and her new Husband into his life, I’m certain he would have been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder; the failure to separate and individuate which always ends in disastrous consequences unless someone *lets go of the other.*

[bluelotus9]

2010,

I agree with your synopsis of Tom, however, my personal opinion of Summer is that she did lead him on somewhat, which was evidently confusing and hurtful to him, but a rite of passage. She may not be a candidate for BPD, however the divorce of her parents seemed to result in confusion in her on how to deal with relationships, maybe a consequence of not empathizing with what Tom was going through (anal girl), and living in a bit of a dazed fantasy. I guess we'll never know whether things worked out with her husband, unless they make a sequel!

Either way, I do enjoy reading your posts 2010.

All best, Bluelotus

I do not think that Tom was as messed up as some people believe.  He was young, dumb and in love. Summer knew Tom had serious feelings for her and she DID continue to lead him on and send him mixed messages.  She would say things like she did not believe in relationships but then grabbed Tom and kissed Tom. If she would have said, that she did not believe in relationships and never kissed Tom... .that would have been more believable.  People with healthy emotions do not lead people on to that point (well that is what I believe).  I have had people who were interested in me that I had no interest in clearly expressed feelings for me and I do not lead them on at all because it is simply not nice... .because I have also had feelings for people who have not had them for me and I know it hurts if there are any mixed messages.

[Intent_to_learn]

Either way, I do enjoy reading your posts 2010.[\quote]

I second that. 2010's posts have led me in multiple directions to research further on my own.