Is lack of empathy more a narcissistic trait? Or is it found in both NPD and BPD?

From experience I know they only focus on their own hurt feelings, and can't see things from a different perspective or if they do its only temporary. I had to explain many times how it feels for ME to be yelled at for no reason. But it didn't help.

I would coneptualize the empathy issue as being on a spectrum with the most severe lack of empathy being a trait of the Anti-social then NPD, then BPD, then Histrionic. The BPD and HPD are most likely to experience empathy if you can find a way for them to connect to it. That is, find the one person that they actually have a thread of real intimacy with and use that to help them find the empathy, ie--"Think of how this is making your mother feel."

Lack of empathy is a key part of ALL cluster B personality disorders, including BPD. How can you begin to master empathy when you have such an underdeveloped sense of self. I think people are confusing "sympathy" with "empathy."

I am tired of the double-standard and negativity towards NPD and AsPD society seems to have, yet seem to be very sympathetic  towards BPD.

I have said it in the past, and will say it againl; I would rather deal with a person with NPD or AsPD any day of the week, then deal with someone with BPD.

NPD has such a broad spectrum. I think sometimes we are very unfair to NPD here on the forums.

I think I lived with a mix of NPD and BPD: suicidal threats, grandiosity, constant need for recognition and admiration, drinking problem, occasional excessive spending, lack of empathy, explosive anger, physical&verbal abuse, sudden mood swings.

Empathy does not equal sympathy. I hope I never have to live in the same house with any Cluster B personalities. I thank God for having a normal family, but on the other hand I had no clue what these diseases do to a person.

Identifying others' emotions vs experiencing them when others do is obviously quite different.

In my experience, both those w/ NPD and BPD are extremely good at the former.  They have to be.

Thank you for that dissection, Calico.  It answered the question I had about the difference between a narcissistic-based BPD ("Queen" versus a true pwNPD.


I couldn't agree more, in my experience with SD's uBPDm and her uNPDsf, they have no idea how the other person feels.  Or if they do at all, they discount it.  What they feel is the only thing of real importance to them.

To show empathy is to identify with another person’s feelings. Empathy is a pretty sophisticated human response if you think about all that has to happen.

It begins with awareness of another person's feelings. It would be easier to be aware of other people's emotions if they would simply tell us how they felt. But since most people do not, we must resort to asking questions, reading between the lines, guessing, and trying to interpret non-verbal cues. Emotionally expressive people are easiest to read because their eyes and faces are constantly letting us know how they are feeling.

Once we are aware of another persons feelings, we briefly imagine ourselves in their place -  feel what they feel - and then respond to them in ways that would comfort us.  This requires great deal of emotional maturity.

When Do Our Empathy Skills Fail

When we are in a distraught emotional state ourselves. It is hard to give when we are needy.   We have all been there. 

Showing empathy also isn't so easy when the person we are trying to comfort is having an experience we can't relate to.  We have all been here too.

Why People with Personality Disorders Have Poor Empathy Skills

BPD sufferers, or anyone in emotional turmoil are often flooded with conflicted and painful emotions. During times of dysregulation,  Borderline Personality sufferers can be so overwhelmed with emotion that they become internally focused, self centered and self absorbed.   Often a person with BPD doesn’t have the emotional energy to consider the emotions of others.

Showing empathy isn't so easy when it's and experience we can't relate to.

People suffering from BPD have a  problem with poor emotional vocabularies, meaning they find it hard to label and understand - their own feelings - let alone understand others. This inability to understand or accept their own feelings leads to feelings of confusion, shame and self hatred, one of the defining traits of a BPD sufferer. Additionally, a person suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is often not very kind to themselves.  They often comfort themselves by dysfunctional means - cutting and self injury are a good examples of dysfunctional soothing.

Even worse, if a pwBPD perceives they are being attacked or criticized by our pain and suffering, or that there is even the possibility of being attacked, their defenses may go into over drive and the attack rather than empathize.

What Can We Do?

How do we best respond when a person close to us has no empathy for our suffering and may even attack us for it - be hurt and defensive?

Being hurt and defensive doesn't help.

Being the target of someones dysregulation (which can often feel irrational and unjustified) is painful. And while the natural reaction is to become defensive – this takes us further from receiving the empathy we desired or need.

This is why independent support is very important to individuals in relationships with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder.

BPD is a true mental disorder.  A person with this disorder often can't be empathetic.  We need to recognize this and find comfort elsewhere. 

If we see that the person with BPD can't respond appropriately we need to just step away - let it go - find support in another way.  Family, friends, and support groups are very important for those in a relationship with a person suffering from this disorder.

Do We Need to be Empathetic of the person with BPD?

When we try to understand others behaviors from a logical staNPDoint, we are judging based on how we believe they “should” perceive. This focus on “logic” leads to the conclusion that the pwBPD "should" be able to do better.  Believing these “should’s” prevents us from full acceptance that our loved one is mentally ill.  But, lets face it, it’s hard to comprehend how someone’s emotions can get in the way . 

A recent study at Harvard Medical school using brain scanning to analyze how anger is processed, demonstrated that people who were depressed had a decrease in blood flow to critical areas of the brain, reducing their inhibitions and interfering with their ability to consider the consequences of their actions. They experienced what researchers described as a double hit,  “A decrease in blood flow to these areas of the brain reduces both their ability to control impulsive acts and their feelings about the consequences of those acts, say punching someone in the mouth. There is both a lack of emotion and a lack of control. A double hit that adds up to inappropriate, even violent rage.”

Someone who suffers from BPD is constantly on the alert for any possible invalidation. Even the slightest criticism or hint of rejection hurts them and drives them into defense and attack mode. They become hyper vigilant to any possible threats (often making mountains out of molehills in the process) as a defensive measure to protect themselves.

Until we can accept this, we won't be able to adjust and make our lives and theirs less chaotic and hurtful.

and then respond to them in ways that would comfort us

To me that encapulates what was missing from my childhood/adolescence. Sounds harsh but that's why, in an ideal world, people with PDs should not become parents unless they are prepared to undergo treatment and enlist plenty of support from functional adults.


That's why, as a 'non' child of a BPD parent, going into adolescence can be absolutely devastating. They see us asserting our independence as an attack and that's often a time that we, as their offspring, experience the most abuse from them.


Another reason why they are destructive as parents. Chilldren often don't have anywhere else to go for comfort other then their parents.

Great thread, it's helping me understand what I'm trying to recover from. And as the daughter of a BPD mother, the kind of person I am striving not to become.

Annie

Hello there:   I believe that "Sympathy" and "Empathy" could be two different traits.  One can have empathy, but not be sympathetic.  "Empathy" to me means an intuitive ability to understand another, however, this understanding alone may not automatically mean sympathy.  Perhaps the Narcissists and people who suffer from other personality disorders have strong empathy, but they misuse this ability for their own ends. 

For example, in my mind, knowledge in itself may not imply wisdom... .these are two separate facets altogether.

Hope my post is not confusing... .

Most of the posts here talk about lack of empathy.  My experience has been one of empathy splitting.  Here is an example.

The BPD in my life worked in restaurants when young.  So she would insist on leaving 30%+ tips whenever we dined out “because they work so hard for so little”.  On the other hand I could work 80 hours in a week and get raged at or the silent treatment for being lazy for sleeping in on my day off.

Any thoughts?

Matt and BeyondBelief, I think the idea of empathy splitting is right on.

I believe my high functioning mild-BPD girlfriend is empathetic when not triggered. She is not empathetic and can be mean when triggered.

We all split a little sometimes. For example I am empathetic, but if I'm at the customer service counter at an airport, and my flight was delayed twice, and the person is ignoring me, and I haven't slept, then in that moment I am not my best self. I am not feeling as much empathy for the customer service representative as I could.

We all lose empathy when triggered. People with BPD are triggered faster and more intensely than others, and sometimes are constantly triggered.

People with NPD do not have the ability to be empathetic.

People with BPD sometimes have normal empathy and sometimes have extreme empathy, especially towards those who are also vulnerable such as homeless people, stray dogs, and anyone who can't threaten them. Sometimes they especially empathize with people who have had similar childhoods to theirs, or are down on their luck. It's genuine. It's also very endearing.

Sometimes the positive emotions are amplified for them, not just the negative emotions. This is also very endearing.

This is my observation as a lay-person. I'm no expert.

I'll chime in with my personal experiences and observations. For brevity I'm using BDP instead of pwBPD:

1) People here tend to categorise the cluster-B personality disorders into PDB, NPD, HPD etc... I feel it's much more of a vague cluster with lots of overlap and possible combinations of traits.

2) I definitely feel that when a BPD is 'overloaded', empathy goes out the window real fast. When they have too much stormy stuff going on inside their heads, i.e. basically always, there are too many emotions raging in their own head to have room for other people's emotions. I'm not making excuses here by the way. I definitely think you could compare their emotional capacity to that of a five-year old.

3) BPD's definitely have the vocabulary of big emotions down. That often makes it seem as if they really do understand deep feelings. They know the territory well so to speak, since they are living in it constantly. For me, this was very misleading, as it led me to assume empathy was a given for people who know the lingo so well. I was very much mistaken here.

4) The true test of empathy: what happens when the needs, wishes and desires of two persons conflict? In other words, what does a BPD do when they need to go against their own feeling out of understanding for a partner's feelings? In my opinion: in this case there is zero empathy. I read words of "she has empathy when not triggered". To me, this boils down to: there is empathy when being empathic means your feelings and wishes align with her own - in which case it's not really empathy. When the feelings conflict, they get triggered and lose empathy. Either way, they're only really acting upon their own feelings - it just so happens sometimes those run parallel with the other person's feelings. But that's not the same as empathy.

5) Dissociation. The big D. I do feel dissociation occurs more often than some of use realise - as a sort of safe haven from overly complex or demanding situations, or when guilt or other negative self-emotions pop up. Decoupling from who you are and from feeling de facto means empathy disappears. To make things worse, I think some BPDs are enabled throughout their life, to use this as an excuse. In other words: looking back, I have the feeling that dissociation is sometimes used as an easy excuse.

6) Superficial empathy. My BPD-ex was very, very loving towards her children in day-to-day life. I'm sure she is very empathetical to their needs in the short term. However, when it comes to her major life decisions, she has made a lot of choices (up to this day) that make her kids grow up in a toxic environment, damaging them for life in my view, and setting them up for lots of therapy and/or abusive relationships in the future. So yes, there is empathy here, but it's not a productive kind of empathy.

7) Last but not least: BPD emotions can swing back and forth rapidly. Dissociative amnesia does not help here. So even if there is empathy on monday, it could very well be gone on tuesday. And therefore, those rare, fleeting moments of empathy are quite meaningless.

Voila. My two cents worth.

My BPD bf does have very good empathy EXCEPT when it has anything to do with him. If the issue has to do with him being hurt/inconvenienced/put upon whatever, if it involves him at all then he has absolutely no empathy whatsoever. I think basically his fight or flight kicks in and it’s looking out for no 1 entirely. Other than that he is very compassionate and empathetic