When is good sex a bad thing?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

When is good sex a bad thing?
 
Some members who are exiting a BPD relationship, or have been thrown from it, seem to really struggle with the loss of the sex life. Some members have reported that the sexual relationship played a significant role in their decision to recycle back into a broken and clearly bad relationship.  Some members have reported that the loss of the sexual relationship is the most significant loss they felt when the relationship was over or during a breakup period.
 
In this feature thread, let’s explore:

• How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?
• How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?
• What are signs that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?
• Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?
• Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?
• How do we change / break the cycle?

Love begets sex... .but sex does not beget love.
 
Sometimes we get it backwards.  Robert Weiss LCSW from the Sexual Recovery Institute in Los Angles says that sexuality can be exploited or evolve into destructive patterns of addiction and compulsion.  Unlike the healthy person seeking partnership and sex as a complement to their life, someone with a exploitative sexual habits searches for something outside of themselves (a person, relationship or experience) which will provide them with the emotional and life stability that they themselves lack.  They use romantic/sexual experiences in an attempt to "fix" themselves and feel emotionally stable.
 
According to Weiss, when love/sexuality is used as a way to cope, rather than a way to grow and share, partner choice becomes skewed – poor choices are made.  Compatibility becomes based on "whether or not you will leave me", "how intense our sex life is" or "how I can hook you into staying", rather than on whether you might truly become a peer, friend and companion.
 
These relationships are characterized over time by unhealthy dependency, unhealthy boundaries, guilt and abuse. Convinced of their lack of worth and not feeling truly lovable, some people  will use seduction, control, guilt and manipulation to attract and hold onto romantic partners.
 
Weiss points out that not everyone who engages in sexual exploitation has a long term problem, many people may have their judgment skewed by a difficult person or situation from time to time in their lives.

[Skip]

When is good sex a bad thing?
 
Some members who are exiting a BPD relationship, or have been thrown from it, seem to really struggle with the loss of the sex life. Some members have reported that the sexual relationship played a significant role in their decision to recycle back into a broken and clearly bad relationship.  Some members have reported that the loss of the sexual relationship is the most significant loss they felt when the relationship was over or during a breakup period.
 
In this feature thread, let’s explore:

• How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?
• How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?
• What are signs that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?
• Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?
• Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?
• How do we change / break the cycle?

Love begets sex... .but sex does not beget love.
 
Sometimes we get it backwards.  Robert Weiss LCSW from the Sexual Recovery Institute in Los Angles says that sexuality can be exploited or evolve into destructive patterns of addiction and compulsion.  Unlike the healthy person seeking partnership and sex as a complement to their life, someone with a exploitative sexual habits searches for something outside of themselves (a person, relationship or experience) which will provide them with the emotional and life stability that they themselves lack.  They use romantic/sexual experiences in an attempt to "fix" themselves and feel emotionally stable.
 
According to Weiss, when love/sexuality is used as a way to cope, rather than a way to grow and share, partner choice becomes skewed – poor choices are made.  Compatibility becomes based on "whether or not you will leave me", "how intense our sex life is" or "how I can hook you into staying", rather than on whether you might truly become a peer, friend and companion.
 
These relationships are characterized over time by unhealthy dependency, unhealthy boundaries, guilt and abuse. Convinced of their lack of worth and not feeling truly lovable, some people  will use seduction, control, guilt and manipulation to attract and hold onto romantic partners.
 
Weiss points out that not everyone who engages in sexual exploitation has a long term problem, many people may have their judgment skewed by a difficult person or situation from time to time in their lives.

[muddychicken]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

It became transactional. We had it only when I initiated it and when I was in her good graces. It was like a narcotic in the beginning. I'm talking almost daily and 2-3 times. Then when I couldn't keep up the pace, she got mad telling me I didn;t love her, wasn't attracted to her. Then unfortunately for me, initiating sex was the only was that I could tell that she wasn't internally raging.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

I felt that it would simply make the issues go away, great sex clouds emotions... .skews perceptions, maybe it puts her anger/rage at bay by her seeing that I did care about her, was attracted to her. It became the only coping skill I had left that made me think all was good in the marriage even though I had an internal feeling after we got married that something was seriously off.

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

When that becomes the goal for the day. Gotta have sex with her. Then at some point accused me of treating her like a whore. That killed my sex drive because I had no clue as to how I was treating her like a whore for something that was a mutual thing to do. Then I backed off in a major way and we only did it maybe 3-4x a month. That also affected any possibility of hugging/kissing her, complimenting her etc.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

I can't speak for my ex but as previously stated she has accused me of treating her like a whore more than once. Also when we were done, she would go to the bathroom and clean up and say "gross" not every time but frequently, that made me feel dirty. Was it me? I had some short term relationships where the sex progressed after 3-4 dates whereas with my ex it was the first date and we did it 5x. I thought that this is what it was supposed to be like. When it was evident that I was leaving her, she initiated it almost daily for about a month, it made me sick to my stomach. That's another story but talk about feeling dirty.I have an addictive personality but fortunately, I have no vices. But for me it was simply that, my brain was looking for the emotional validation that I didn't get from my parents and my brain told me that the sex I was getting was what I had been looking for all this time... .I know otherwise now.

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

Funny, I am a CPS investigator and I have seen this issue in a countless number of cases and I could hear myself saying "this is so familiar to me, what you're saying." It took me seeing her therapist to put a label on what was going on. She didn't say BDP, but told me that she was verbally and emotilnally abusing me. That lead to Internet searches and I started to see what was going on in my life... .and the FOG cleared and the Roller Coaster ride started to come to an end. It was familiar to me, I was repeating my childhood relationship with my momster through my exwife.

How do we change / break the cycle?

Got a good T and I researched the warning signs to toxic relationships and NO FEAR. Bring on the RAGE, I can take it, it's too easy to disarm after I learned the skills in dealing with it. . I started seeing cracks in my last dating relationship that lasted 10 months as she couldn't hold up the false front any longer. SHe felt familiar too. How do I break the cycle? Stop looking for that exciting HIGH and see that feeling grounded and not depending on my partner to feel good about mself or my happiness makes for a healthy relationship.

[larissap]

Common Traits of Sex Addicts
Sex Addicts have eerily similar personality traits and childhood experiences that leave no doubt that the two are correlated. Almost every woman I have talked with describes conversations and behaviors that sound as if she were talking about my husband, rather than hers. Here are a few of the most common personality traits of Sex Addicts.

 Emotionally immature
 Lack empathy
 Engage in compulsive lying
 Lead double lives
 Lack coping skills
 Unable to form intimate bonds
 Use sex to medicate their emotional pain
 Feel overwhelming shame and guilt
 Lack trust
 Socially isolated
 Lack self esteem
 Engage in ‘Black and White’ thinking
 Live in denial
 Feel out of control
 Harbor anger

 www.marriedtoasexaddict.com/addiction/

[InEarPeace]

You will find most (if not all) of those traits in any addict, regardless of the type of addiction.

I'm an addict (in recovery for over 5 years now) and I can see I have had all of those traits at one point or another (although I wouldn't have admitted it at the time).  Many of those traits you list I believe are reasons why I ended up with my exBPDw.  I couldn't see the dysfunctional relationship for what is was since I didn't have the concept of a good relationship.

Trying to simply define an addiction is tough, but for what it came down to for me was this. It is using a substance/act/person in an unhealthy way so that the addict can cope with life and their emotions.  For me it was basically how I could live with myself.

Did my exBPDw use sex to cope? Yes. Did she also use food to cope? Yes.  Did she use excessive sleep to cope? Yes. Did she play the victim to elicit compliments to cope? Yes. Did she paint others black to redirect attention from herself to cope? Yes. (I could go on with many other destructive behaviors she used as well)

I wouldn't necessarily consider my exBPDw an addict in any of these areas (although she would say that she was a food addict that she overcame) but rather she did whatever she had to to cope with life.  Almost like that she wasn't necessarily addicted to one thing in particular but whatever was handy at the time to use.

There is definitely a correlation between a PD and addictions.  In fact, recently the American Society of Addiction Medicine redefined an addiction as a "chronic neurological disorder".

[Realization]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

In my case, sex became the main 'focus point' in our 20-year marriage... .was never enough for him, not good enough for him, etc., etc.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

I realized it was his way to cope because when the marriage started heading for trouble, it was his way to fix everything.

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

When my feelings were being ignored or, better yet, when he told me that my feelings were wrong and sex would 'fix it'... .and that always led to the 'not good enough', etc.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

In my case, it was both of us... .I was co-d in trying to save the marriage and believed him that the intimacy of sex would bring us back together   

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

I know that I didn't WANT to see it, if I did see his unhealthy 'drive' then that would've ended the marriage sooner.  I was grasping at straws trying to save a 20-year marriage.

How do we change / break the cycle?

We had a great marriage therapist whom I continued seeing as my own T when the marriage dissolved.

[bpdspell]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

When sex is the only thing that gives you an inkling hope that things will get better.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

When sex becomes the only tool you have to get close to the person that's hurting you. It's the ultimate distraction from the games, the push pull, the loneliness I felt, the pain of narcissistic abuse. Sex with the ex was like being on dope but when the high ended I felt even worse and had to face an even harsher reality.

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

When you feel empty, used and resentful after sex. When you realize you are making love to an empty person who cannot feed your soul or spirit in any mutually reciprocal way. This is emotional painful.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

It was the both of us. My ex used sex to control me and I used sex as a bandaid for all of the irreversible damaged he caused. I wanted sex to help me forget about his betrayals, infidelities, ambient abuse,& triangulations. I even used sex as power tool believing that he'd treat me better if I gave him what he wanted in bed.

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

Because we are in powerful denial and will use sex as that string in the ball of yarn until the ball is gone. For me sex was power and was the only trump card I had with my ex. I had stopped giving him material things but I never stopped giving him sex. It was the only thing that I believed I had that would keep him close to me. But the closeness was false. Sex does not equate love but sex was my drug addiction to my ex.

How do we change/break the cycle?

All of the abuse simply became intolerable and bedroom antics could no longer distract me from the pain I was so desperately trying to avoid. The so called "amazing sex" we had never stopped him from being bossy, bullying, selfish, entitled & narcissistic. I had to accept that although I loved him that my ex was not a nice person; he has a rotten character and was willing to do anything to win. I broke my addiction by "starving myself" out as you would say. I went through withdrawals and everything but giving him that space helped me to accept the good and bad of who he truly was.

[HardTruth]

I think the chemical in the brain that's released during sex and contributes to feelings of love and bonding that tcevans78 is talking about is oxytocin.  Here's a wiki link - it's really interesting!

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

I can't remember whether it was here or somewhere else that I read that something like 5x more oxytocin is released in women's versus men's brains during sex. 

[willy45]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?
 
The sex at the beginning was incredible. Despite all the crazy behaviors, the raging, the blaming, the neediness, and my being terrified about her, I still went back. I knew the relationship itself was terrible. She yelled and screamed at me for everything. I wanted out. I was out mentally and physically but I kept going back for the sex. I would fantasize about her all the time (I still do). I remember when the sex stopped being that great I thought to myself: The sex isn't that great... .   why am I still here? What am I doing with this person?
 
How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?
 
Sex was a place where I felt I was getting something out of the relationship. It was my reason for staying. When we had great sex, I could justify to myself why I was there. It made me feel connected to her and it was really fun.
 
What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?
 
I continue to fantasize about her. All the time. When I miss her, I fantasize about her. It is my way of keeping her around. But that person I am keeping around was abusive. She raged at me for almost anything and everything. She was manipulative. There were guilt trips all the time and strange distorted thinking. Gaslighting. The usual. I had even started another relationship with someone that I really and truly cared for. A person who I thought I could spend my life with. A person who was kind and caring and compassionate. And I still went back for the sex. And I got heaps and heaps of abuse. It almost destroyed my life. Literally.
 
Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?
 
Both. My ex would use sex as a mechanism of control. She obviously wouldn't see it that way. But why would I expect her to. I remember towards the end of the relationship, we were having a bad day and out of the blue she tells me that she would sleep with another woman in front of me if I wanted. Totally out of the blue. And my thoughts were: "That's weird... .   we just had a terrible day together and this is what you are offering up? That's just weird."
 
On my end, I was addicted to it. No question about it. Even after we broke up, it still hooked me in. It was the reason I stayed for so long during and after the relationship. It is the main reason why I'm on these boards. If the sex hadn't been so amazing, I never, ever would have been involved with this person. Ever.
 
Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?
 
I wasn't the last to see it. I was the first to see it. I knew the entire time. I just ignored it. I didn't think it was that dangerous. It was. That is the part that I didn't see. I didn't see how dangerous it was to my self and my own psychological well-being. It kept me in a place with a person who was deeply wounded and abusive.
 
How do we change / break the cycle?
 
Good lord. Any suggestions would be incredibly useful. I don't see my ex anymore. I don't talk to her. I don't communicate with her. I still fantasize about her. Almost daily. Sometimes even more. I want her dead in my mind and I know that my doing this is just keeping her alive in my mind and her voice continues to abuse me. Please... .   suggestions! This is where I am completely stuck.

[alembic]

Sex was a place where I felt I was getting something out of the relationship. It was my reason for staying. When we had great sex, I could justify to myself why I was there. It made me feel connected to her and it was really fun.

Yes, that's it.  Speaking as someone who generally regards myself as unlucky in love/low self esteem/whatever you want to call it, having gone through years of getting no female attention or sex, being in a relationship with someone who offers up fantasy sex without batting an eyelid is a very powerful thing.

Both. My ex would use sex as a mechanism of control. She obviously wouldn't see it that way. But why would I expect her to. I remember towards the end of the relationship, we were having a bad day and out of the blue she tells me that she would sleep with another woman in front of me if I wanted. Totally out of the blue. And my thoughts were: "That's weird... .    we just had a terrible day together and this is what you are offering up? That's just weird."

At the beginning of our relationship, my wife encouraged me to seek out sex with other women, even though that wasn't at all what I wanted - I wanted the 'girlfriend experience' with this one.  Now she's my wife, she often uses sex as a mechanism to smooth over any and all cracks in our relationship. We had a disastrous holiday a couple of years back, caused by some rather bad decisions on my wife's part.  Her response to try and get things back on track was to offer even more 'special' sex than usual to get me back on-side.

On my end, I was addicted to it. No question about it. Even after we broke up, it still hooked me in. It was the reason I stayed for so long during and after the relationship. It is the main reason why I'm on these boards. If the sex hadn't been so amazing, I never, ever would have been involved with this person. Ever.

The sex was certainly the number one reason why I stay with the relationship.  But at the beginning, I thought we had a lot in common too.  But thinking about it now, I wonder how much we really did have in common, and how much was 'mirroring'.  A lot of the things that we seemed to have in common fell by the wayside over the years, to the point where we seem to have little in common at all, now.

[Healing4Ever]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

I think for me, as I look back, sex was a way to get reconnected without having to deal with the issues at hand.  The sex was great and connecting and good for both of us.  However, it blinded me to understanding that the other r/s issues were still there - they didn't magically disappear just because of good sex.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

Again, as I look back, I see that I started to grab at sex in order to make sure he did still love me, especially during/after silent treatments.  It would break him out of his shell, for the most part, and I would be back in his good books.  

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

When I'm using sex in order to feel loved.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

I always felt something was a bit off with my partner and sex - in fact, when we first got together, I was worried he would be into really kinky stuff and it would turn me off.  He seemed to quickly mirror me in sex, and there was no issue that way. (except that somehow the mirroring feels a bit weird - almost disingenuous).  However, 6 years into our r/s, he admitted to me (as part of a 12 step program that he was in) that he is a sex addict and had been using porn etc to satisfy his addiction. Another "aha" moment for me - I wasn't completely off in my original niggles.  (Wow - I am learning how much I can disregard my own instincts).  So that was his part in it.  My part, as I mentioned above, was using sex to feel loved by him.  Allowing it to blind me to the parts of our r/s that weren't working so that I wouldn't have to deal with them.

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

Since it was a coping method, it almost is self-explanatory.  It helped me cope so that I wouldn't have to deal with the realities of the r/s, because as others mentioned above, I knew it would likely mean the r/s would be over.

How do we change / break the cycle?

I think accepting what is really going on is the first step.  I see how I have been using sex to feel loved, and how I have allowed sex to blind me to the realities of what was not working well in the rest of our r/s.  Not sure what is next - I use prayer and God, so I will give this to God to help sort out, and be willing to follow in whatever plan he lays out for me.

[delusionalxox]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

Oh god... . ohhhh god. I could really write the book on this one. My relationship with my ex was one of complete sexual worship on my part with a strong element of aggression/roughness in the sex and an obsession on both sides (which for him seems to have abruptly terminated).

Everything else, almost everything else apart from when we travelled around in Italy (entirely paid for by me of course  ) was grinding to a halt. We had split and recycled over 20 times. Eventually he downgraded me to 'friend' (ie shag buddy) in February pursuant to a 'bromance' with a new straight male friend in Italy. Yet he still professed sexual interest in me, increasingly in a 'pornified' and objectifying way, as I describe below. And no doubt I objectified him too, and still do.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

When it is the only thing that is still working consistently. When it is the main thing driving you to be with that person.

Something odd happened with ex in that the sex got more intense- and rougher- towards the end, seeming to peak for him just before he dumped me. A precipitator of the dump is that I stopped responding to his obsessional and frequent demands for text and email sex, descriptions of fantasies, skype sex, etc (we were in a long distance relationship, but when he was horny he would expect sexual communication from me pretty much all day... . and I had a life, I couldn't do that.) Towards the end it started to feel very false, as he was withdrawing real commitment and affection from me simultaneously. I started to feel like an object, although I still desired him intensely.

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

The signs above- his insatiability for sexual input from me, particularly virtual; his fantasies of me being a 'whore' for him and others (simply not true, although he was highly suspicious and paranoid about my sexual behaviour in real life) the increasing disconnection of intense sex from the otherwise mostly unhappy and difficult relationship that we had. I desired him intensely. I still desire him intensely and I wonder when it will ever end. But he was not a good or giving person. And I cannot reconcile those two things in myself. This hurts me very much.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us? It was both of us. But perhaps more me. Ex was I think blown away by my 'liberal' sexuality (he is from Southern Italy and I think the women there are far more conservative and traditionally gendered I was prepared to discuss sexual past, various preferences, fantasies etc and even consider things like threesomes, which initially ignited his jealousy, then obsessed him completely to the extent that he wanted one NOW and kept nagging me to somehow arrange it. One of his last messages to me noted that he loved 'how open I was' and 'how desired I made him feel'. I think that my intense desire for him was very gratifying to him but that something in that gratification was not personal. I just made him feel good. I as a person was secondary to that.

I still miss it. I fantasise every detail of his body, how it was when we made love. The total openness and my absolute desire for him. He was so beautiful and I loved every inch of him. It makes me cry and feel the most intense heartbreak, to think of it.

But it was the only place where our 'love' (which I now doubt was love, particularly at the end) worked. It was a physical fantasy land. But still magical. And I miss it so very much and the beautiful man I adored.  :'(


Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

Sadly I did see it and very early on. I did fight it too, trying to scale down to 'true friends'. Trying to break my own obsession. Tried to date other people when we were split up- only to be hysterically accused of 'cheating' by him when I was truthful about this and other struggles. No one came close to him, but I did try to look elsewhere just to snap his hold over me. What I did do was meet much nicer, kinder men on these dates and realised more and more how deeply immature and exploitative he was. For instance, I realised I had got totally used to paying for everything to the extent that it was a shock when a man bought me a drink or meal on a date 

How do we change / break the cycle?

Please, if you know, tell me. It is cold turkey now for me. He has cut me off completely. He was moving to Asia anyway; I knew that the end was coming, but I didn't think it would hurt so bloody much. On top of the emotional brutality I have had to face from him, the ghastly emptiness of still wanting him and feeling that no one else will ever match up. I need to forget him. I hid all the photos, archived them. I would give a great deal to make love with him once again. Yet at the same time I know that it was a drug. It was deeply dangerous and like a heroin habit, it needed to stop.

Perhaps after 6 months NC I will have forgotten some of it. Forgotten what he looked and felt like.

God, I want that more than anything.  :'(

[DeRetour]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

With my uBPD-exGF, sex was emotional, passionate, and sometimes rough. I had no interest in empty sex. I wanted a connection. She brought out both an intense desire and feeling of tenderness and seemed to fully validate these feelings in me. I kept telling myself that if the chemistry is this good with her, then how could it possibly be wrong? But then I’d remember how quickly she could go from being happy to completely withdrawn with the slightest sign of the wrong expression in my face. And if something like that happened right after sex, then the moment is completely forgotten.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

At  the time, I had a hard time admitting it, but I really didn’t trust her. Early on, before we got into a relationship, she had done some things that seemed really sketchy. Once we got into a relationship, it's as though she started acting less pornographic and more like the regular girlfriend I wanted. She stopped texting me dirty photos she had taken of herself, and acted as though those things just never happened. I never forgot. And with her hypervigilance, she could tell right away if I had worries. But, discussing concerns with her would lead to a fight. So, I often had to keep it in and deal with anxiety over these concerns. From the beginning, I got the sense from her that she equated sex (or sexual desire for her) as love. Somehow, I told myself that as long as I keep her satisfied enough, she won’t go looking for sexual validation elsewhere. Of course, then the question became, how much would be enough for her?

What are signs that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

Again, I realized I didn’t fully trust her. I discovered a few lies from earlier in the relationship. I learned she had been webcamming for the first few months of our relationship. She confessed to it and promised to quit, but again, the worry never went away. And my worry often seemed to be how fights started. She'd ask me, I'd have to deny it, or admit. I was always on the defensive for having any such worry. So, any time she started with the push-pull behaviors, I’d prepare myself for her withdrawal and tell myself not have sex with her. I didn’t want to reward her pushing me away. Regrettably, if she initiated sex, I gave in, hoping that it might reel her back in. I didn’t want to believe that she could just emotionally detach herself from the intimacy when we had sex.

Not trusting her, I had this unsettling suspicion that she had cheated at least once. She kept her phone locked and seemed to hover over it all the time. So combining this behavior with her high sex drive, I was often concerned throughout the relationship. Yet, much of the time, she seemed to act like the perfect girlfriend to me - she seemed happy to stay in with me on weekday nights and cook, and we talked a lot about our future. This insecurity did a strange thing – it made me feel like I wanted to give her the best possible sex in hopes that she would never want to look anywhere else. Yikes.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

Both of us It was both of us. I participated and reinforced these behaviors with sex.

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

Why? Well, for one of the main reasons I’m here on these boards – I thought that love would conquer everything - her trauma, her body-image issues, my old abandonment fears from childhood,... .

How do we change/break this cycle?

I have started with taking an NC approach after the breakup. With NC, it's been a month of what feels like a real detox - got sick for 2 weeks with flu-like symptoms, nerves completely shot and lots of emotional stuff has surfaced. I feel like this relationship has given me the opportunity to address some real core issues that I've had. Next step: looking into addressing these core issues through acupuncture, an exercise program, meditation, and restoring relationships I've neglected. I'm focusing on healing myself and resetting my magnet to attract good energies into my life. I want to get well, and find a girl I can have a healthy partnership with. I really want to have a life partner. Ahh... but first I need to focus on getting myself well and attracting success.

[frag1911]

How do we know when the sex has become "blinding" to us in the relationship?

Our sexual relationship was blinding from the beginning, since both of us were fairly newly divorced and admittedly were feeling like a couple of teenagers finally out on our own.  I was 48 and she was 45.  I was aware that she has insecurities, but had that “hero” image of myself that I could support her enough for her to overcome those insecurities.

How do we know when the sex has become a way to cope?

I realized this about 6 months after we moved in together.  She had already demonstrated how jealous she was simply because I worked in a store (with lots of women customers), and then she started demanding that we have sex before one of us left for work, and when the last one got home.  She fell into the expectation(!) of sex at these times, which becomes unsustainable even for an active 20-something, let alone a near-50y/o man with erectile dysfunction.  Having to take Viagra, there could be a 30-45 minute delay until the drug affects the system.  To prevent her delay of satisfaction, I was then expected to keep a supply of Viagra in my car to take when I left work, or if she was getting off of work, she would call and tell me to “take a pill, I’m on my way home.”  And despite her regular accusations that I was cheating on her, she was the one who made comments about getting some before she left or when she got home from work.

What are sign that my sexual drives are unhealthy or hurting me?

My drives are healthy and normal despite the ED.  Having grown up overseas, I have a slightly abnormal attitude about sex compared to most American men, such as, I don’t like going to nudie bars!  They bore me.  It’s not enough to watch the merchandise, because it’s not coming home with me at the end of the night.

Is it my partner? Me? Both of us?

Absolutely my partner.  In my experience, she lacks any empathy about how I feel, and demands her satisfaction first and foremost.  I’ve taken my “pill” for when she got home, and in the hours (it works for me for about 15-18 hours) waiting for her, I lose the want and drive I had.  I’ve been physically ill and she has come to me wanting sex.  Of course, it’s also her only “make up” mode, since apologies are out of the question.

Why are we the last to see it in ourselves?

I realized her need for validation and security through sex early, but I accepted it as just a part of our “freedom” attitude having gotten through divorces.  It was almost a year before I really cued to the fact that she was attempting to manipulate me with sex, trying to make me forget the rants and raves and accusations she was making about me.  It was a little longer before I realized she needed it to deal with her own perceptions of herself and our relationship.

How do we change / break the cycle?

It was fairly easy for me, since not only do I have the ED situation, but the different attitude about sex I mentioned.  I never had the high level sex drive of my peers in my teens and twenties, so not having sex for extended periods has never been that big of a deal.  But, when I had sex, even the few “casual” encounters, I was “all in”.  What she could not realize, even after several “discussions” as peacefully as I could make them, was that it was her ranting and raving and accusations that were suppressing my sex drive.  Soon of course she began accusing me of either (take her pick) cutting her off to punish her or I was getting it somewhere else (and that was her proof I was cheating).

[Infern0]

I hope that this topic is OK to be discussed.

I found out about nofap back in early March and thought I'd give it a go because I was looking at all aspects of self improvement and I have to say it had a dramatic effect on me primarily my emotional state.

Nofap is not watching any porn or masterbating

Some benefits I experienced after a few weeks in were:

Less brain fog
Better emotional control
Better self esteem
Being more understanding of myself and others and more forgiving
More energy and drive
Less anxiety

I did this a week after my BPD ex split me and vanished again and it really helped in the process.

After being on nofap for 2 months I felt the best I have in years, the problem was I bumped into my ex in town and was on a ridiculous high that night so I grabbed her and spun her around then just bounded off with my buddie.

She started blowing up my phone and we got involved again which lead me to stop all my self improvement stuff and it lead me back to rock bottom and her vanishing again.

But as of yesterday I am committing to nofap again so if any guys on here are interested in trying something that I personally have experienced really helps, go ahead and ask any questions.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Infern0,

I'm not a guy, but I've read some interesting science on this subject. Have you seen this site?

www.yourbrainonporn.com

heartandwhole

[Infern0]

Yes I have done a lot of reading into the subject, that site is very good. I think it's a real tool for codependent men, it really sharpens you mentally.  

Mind you there's research to say women can benefit too if they watch a lot of porn but that is rarer

[earlgrey]

"IN spring a man may permit himself to ejaculate once every 3 days, but in summer and autumn he should limit himself to twice a month. During the cold of winter a man should preserve his semen and avoid ejaculation altogether... ." Master Liu Ching - Han Dynasty

The Tao of Health etc by Daniel Reid.

[HopefulDad]

Nofap is not ... .masturbating

Some benefits I experienced after a few weeks in were:

Less brain fog
Better emotional control
Better self esteem
Being more understanding of myself and others and more forgiving
More energy and drive
Less anxiety

Funny, I went the opposite (ProFap?) and had the same benefits.  Honestly, when I held out I felt like I was living "The Contest" episode of Seinfeld.

:slaps money on counter:

[hergestridge]

It's a load of bollocks. "Nofap" is built on the notion that the "porn-orgasm" f*cks up your reward system, while the coitus orgasm does not apparently because porn "over-stimulates" the senses which "burns" the senses.
The big question is why this doesn't happen to people who as sex with their partner on a daily basis.

"Nofap" starts out like rehab for porn-junkies but soon takes you into realms where orgasms should be avoided altogether because you "lose energy" when you ejaculate.
It's the worst kind of pseudoscience that relies on an army of young men who testify that it "works" because they've "been on it" for weeks and now feel great.
"Nofap" sends people out in the world (outside the manosphere) to testify.

Your body tells you when to jerk off. Just do it. Don't stay home from work to do it, but do what feels good for you.

[drained1996]

Ok, the last two replies here have made me laugh out loud.  I'm profap, just don't let it get in the way of work! 

[VitaminC]

I find it more useful to look at this through the lens of compulsive behaviours. Anything that becomes a compulsion messes with the reward centres of our brains. Addictions - Compulsions, there's a lot of overlap. This nofap business, is the sexual equivalent of NC, perhaps.

Here's a short article on differences between habits, compulsions, and addictions:
https://theaddictionadvisor.com/habit-compulsion-or-addiction/

Can we (re)-establish the point of the original post? How does it assist your self-improvement, Inferno, to look at your sexual needs more closely, identify them, and interrupt any actions that you may have performed without a mindful choice being made and enjoyment being derived from that in all its fullness?
Have I understood you correctly? You didn't expressly say this, but that is how I interpreted it. Do, please, correct me if I'm off.

Is it possible that the benefits you said you experienced:  

Less brain fog
Better emotional control
Better self esteem
Being more understanding of myself and others and more forgiving
More energy and drive
Less anxiety

were more to do with your paying attention to yourself and just taking charge of a different aspect of your life? If it works, great! I'm not arguing that, but I would like to put it out there that maybe this is just another example of the self-care that we talk about here.

[hergestridge]

I will try make a more nuanced comment.

The problem with nofap is that it gives a false picture of where the problem lies.

People who abuse alcohol, food or sex tend to cling on the notion that the problem is the alcohol, food or sex. It's not. The problem is not the availability. The problem is not society and its norms and attitudes. Because as long as the majority of us can handle alcohol, food (including sugar), sex and porn the problem lies with the person who can't handle it.
There are so many prophets preaching the evils of the modern world. It's an easy way to become popular.

[fromheeltoheal]

There's arguably a hormonal component too; there's evidence that links blood levels of testosterone to ejaculation frequency, most say ejaculation decreases testosterone, some say it increases it, which is why I say arguably.  And that ties in with an old boxer's belief that not having sex before a fight helps a boxer fight better, more testosterone, and then he can have celebration sex after he wins.  And tellingly Inferno, all of the benefits you list as benefits of the "nofap" plan are benefits of higher blood testosterone levels, so maybe that's what you're experiencing?

And then there's the other part.  Masturbating to porn is a substitute for real sex really, part of the thrill with none of the risk of rejection or the "complications" of a relationship, especially compelling after the complicated ones we came out of, and what happens when that substitute becomes a compulsion, an addiction?  Well, if the testosterone part is true, then someone compulsively masturbating to porn is constantly depleting their testosterone, which is the worst thing you can do, for a man, if you're trying to move on, be attractive to the opposite sex, and have the self esteem, confidence and aggression to pursue what you want.  BTW, testosterone is commonly linked to aggressive behavior, although that isn't necessarily true, it's more the confidence and calm that comes with knowing you can be aggressive if need be, but don't need to live there.  Anyway, marry that with our new-found knowledge of personality disorders and the leverage to spot the traits quickly so we can move on right away, and that leaves healthy, available women who are interested in real men.  It's a brand new world... .

And of course there's female masturbation, which I am in no way qualified to comment on... .

[Junknown]

Hello there.

Im doing it as well. I guess it will only help the ones who have an addiction of course. Not everyone has the same biological propensity to addiction, be it substance or non substance addiction. In my case, i started doing it at 4 yo with porn magazines my father had and that i found, escalated the use through the years doing it daily multiple times, escalating the kind of stuff i watched to the point i didnt pursuit real women or had the same sensitivity to normal stimuli that should be arousable. I think it had an influence in the way i met my exBPDgf and got hooked to her. As i was insecure, had little experience with women and had found online a heavily sexual women without much problems with sex snd that i found that gave me the stimulation i needed to have the intimacy i wanted. So, it first started with an online conversation with a heavily sexual thematic. At the same time i was attracted to her and fell in love with her.

Of course, this was me. Like any other substance or non susbtance the potential and propensity to abuse is individual. Thruth is, biologically it all makes sense as it does, indeed, activate the reward pathway in the brain with a release of dopamine on the nucleus accumbens. A excessive and continous abuse of it with the biological propensity for depency will obviously lead someone to the porn dependency and its effects in my opinion. And the brain rewiring effects as well.

To me, in my personal situation it makes sense, i feel like i will benefit from it as i indeed had an addiction and i will stick to it. Its a tough process though and i faced some relapses already so far... .

[Infern0]

  fromheeltoheal   

Test levels do increase on nofap, though they peak around day 11 they remain higher than if you were masterbating.

There are enough studies that you can see to show that it works and countless success stories regarding it. I myself tried it, didn't expect much but had astounding results.

I think people who criticize it without trying it just don't want to stop watching porn and blowing their load all over themselves and that's fine, I was like that too at the start. I justified it.

But I do recommend anyone who's curious to give it a try. I do think the rise of "Beta males" can be partially attributed to the rise of access to porn. Old school men back in the day were not busting off to porn multiple times a week... .or day

I'd advise anyone to try it for 30 days, you don't have anything to lose and if after that 30 days you don't feel any different you can go back to it.

If you CAN'T go 30 days you are addicted and have a problem, and no addiction Is good

[hergestridge]

But I do recommend anyone who's curious to give it a try. I do think the rise of "Beta males" can be partially attributed to the rise of access to porn. Old school men back in the day were not busting off to porn multiple times a week... .or day

"Old school men back in the day" went to war and raped women.

[rfriesen]

As unfortunately happens with many threads touching on sex and sexuality, there's a certain amount of insecurity and blustering in response to Infern0's original post. That alone suggests this is an interesting topic worth talking about.

As for addiction and "responsible use", I'm no expert, but I don't think the scientific evidence is really clear on how addictive regular porn consumption is. To draw a very rough analogy, should we think of porn the way we think of alcohol -- fine in moderate amounts for most people, but dangerous in any amount for alcoholics -- or heroine -- highly addictive and probably not something any person should consume regularly? My non-expert impression is that the scientific jury is very much still out.

But even that way of putting the question is misleading. I don't think too many people really believe that simply watching videos of people having sex and masturbating is inherently damaging. The real question is, what kind of porn are you watching? What excites you about it and how does watching it change the kinds of sexual stimulation you seek out?

Let's put us aside both moralising and knee-jerk defensive answers to these questions. I'm all for allowing people to pursue the kinkiest and most "deviant" sexual pleasures they want, so long as all participants are consenting. But it's only sensible to ask ourselves as well what kind of pleasures we want to seek out, i.e. what kind fit into our life project. It's not so simple as celebrating whatever sexual desires you're "born with", as though these form some eternal truth about you.

For instance, suppose what you really see yourself wanting is a stable, longterm, committed, monogamous relationship, with open communication, mutual respect, and genuine emotional intimacy. I'm not saying you should want this, but many people do see that as a valuable relationship goal. But suppose you also find yourself drawn to porn that sexualizes humiliation, dominance, pain, and degradation. Then you're likely to pursue outlets for your sexual desires that interfere with what you value in a longterm relationship. (Not necessarily! I understand perfectly well that some couples might be able to engage in power exchanges and forms of sexual control and humiliation in their sex lives, while compartmentalising this from the rest of their lives. I'm just talking about the tension many men seem to experience between porn fantasies and what they want in a partner.) And regularly watching porn that sexualizes degradation and humiliation is likely to reinforce desires that you would perhaps be better off working to transform in a healthier direction.

Again, I don't think this is a moral question - at least not in the first instance. I have nothing against people saying, the hell with conventional sexual morality, I'm going all-in on kink and I'm chasing my freaky sexual desires. It's only when porn reinforces desires that don't fit with other values that I think there's a real problem for the individual.

Now, you might say -- ok, simple solution then, just watch porn that fits with what you want out of life, and maintain some self-awareness about what you're watching, as you would about anything else in life. And that is a good solution. End of story in a sense.

The only thing I'd add is that if you look at the evolution of "mainstream" pornography in the last 20 years or so, there's an obvious trend towards more extreme sex acts and niche markets. I think there's a fairly clear trend to increased sexualization of dominance and humiliation and this arguably feeds the hyper-insecure things you read in the "manosphere" about alpha and beta males and the truth that "all women are sluts" who should be approached for sexual pleasure, not emotional intimacy. This "frat culture" view of the world is rooted in deep male insecurity about women and is arguably reinforced by widespread consumption of today's mainstream porn.

There is a social aspect to the porn issue here, and it can't be easily dismissed with glib comments. I don't think the question is so much porn vs no-porn (or fap vs no-fap), but what kind of porn and what does the best sociological, psychological research tell us about how consumption of increasingly extreme porn affects sexual desires.

To my mind, these are interesting questions, with no obvious or simple answers. Of course, what that says to any individual about watching porn or not ... .well, that's for each of us to figure out for ourselves.

[BowlOfPetunias]

Avoid porn if you want to, but not masturbating--especially when you are in a low-sex relationship as are many spouses of BPDs--is a very, very, very bad idea!

Men need to ejaculate regularly.  If we don't, we get very nasty prostate infections.  About 12 years ago, I had a very, very painful one.  And it doesn't just hurt your prostate--it can make your testicles extremely painful at the slightest touch.  Also, masturbating regularly has been shown to reduce the risk of prostate cancer.

[BowlOfPetunias]

If you CAN'T go 30 days you are addicted and have a problem, and no addiction Is good

Wow.  So if I have a beer once a month, I am an addict?  Do you know of any herione or coke junkies who indulge their addiction once a month?  Once a week even?  (FYI, I usually have 1 beer with dinner, so I must really be an alcoholic by your standards! )

5 times a day is excessive.  Chafing your skin on a regular basis is excessive.  Ejaculating once a day is not, especially if you are young and healthy.  It feels good AND it is good for your prostate.

[rfriesen]

If you CAN'T go 30 days you are addicted and have a problem, and no addiction Is good

I think what Infern0 is saying is that if you feel you HAVE to drink that beer, that if you wouldn't be able to give up alcohol for 30 days, then that indicates some level of addiction. Obviously, the analogy has its limits. And, as you point out, the real question ultimately is how any activity fits into your life. You masturbate once a day or so because it feels good and lets you get on with other things, then great -- why would anyone somehow hold that against you? On the other hand, if someone masturbates to porn because they feel a real compulsion, or it weighs on them in some uncomfortable way, then that's something for them to explore and try to understand why desires surrounding masturbating or watching porn are causing them some level of distress.

I don't believe there are any universal answers here. It really depends on the individual and all the factors surrounding sex and sexual desire for that individual -- usually a complicated and emotionally loaded area of life. That said, it's possible that well designed sociological studies will eventually establish certain broad trends, e.g. maybe "porn creep" is real for a significant percentage of men, leading many to seek out increasingly extreme forms of pornography. Also, the fact that kids growing up today watch, on average, thousands of minutes of porn before their own first sexual experience, is bound to give them a somewhat different perspective on sex, compared with those of us who grew up before the internet. Again, sociological studies may establish interesting facts about that different perspective and it might turn out that reducing porn consumption would lead to happier sex lives for many people.

Like you, I really think it's an individual thing and there are not strict rules here.