Is DBT a worthwhile therapy for us?

[searching4hope]

Beginning this divorce process and disengaging from dBPDh, I feel the need to attack the damage from the r/s head on.  My current T, who I have been with for over 2 years is great, but very client centered, humanistic, non-directive, therefore the progress seems very slow.  I was wondering what your thoughts were on temporary DBT or CBT to try and repair the damage in thought processes and responsive behaviors that I have been conditioned to do through this r/s... .

any thoughts?  or am I just jumping the gun and not being patient with my own recovery and healing from this r/s?

[seeking balance]

Funny, I posted something very similar when I first joined.  I was fascinated with dbt - and I actually went to dbtselfhelp.com and kind of worked on my own version. 

Heck, your recovery is your own - jump the gun, do what you need to - just remember to be patient with yourself.  Sometimes it takes a while for our emotions to catch up with your brain.  I remember "knowing" what what happening but "feeling" different.  I knew she was mentally ill - I still felt love, hope, maybe not BPD, etc.  The facts were clear, but took my emotions a while to catch up.

Takes a bit to move out of FOG and depersonalize their actions.

Peace, SB

[PotentiallyKevin]

I absolutely love both CBT and DBT. IMO both should be mandatory for every recovering non. Both have helped have had a great effect on helping me find emotional stability - then again, I had lots of baggage before the BPD relationship, CBT literally saved my life when I was 19.

Therapy can be extremely helpful, even for healthy people. Check out positive psychology. It is my new fascination.

[2010]

DBT nearly killed me psychologically. I was, like you- desperate to find answers for someone elses behavior. I jumped into DBT, desperately, eagerly. What I found was a climate of a workshop- with one or two miserable "leaders" who failed to lead effectively and completely misunderstood Borderline behavior. (They did, however, know the ins and outs of insurance coverage. If you know what I mean.)

DBT was created by Marsha Linehan in an emergency effort to address the alarming number of self harm/cutting/suicides (acting out behaviors) in teen-age Borderline girls.  For you to enter DBT, you will be placed in group therapy with Borderlines- especially seriously self-harming Borderlines. You will follow a guidebook and run role playing exercises with other group members who are Borderline.  There is a reason that they are there- and it's usually because someone else is desperate with their behavior.  It's almost a last ditch effort for family members and spouses and you will see them dropping off your classmates and waiting in the waiting room to pick them up again.  In the meantime, you will come to realize that some of these people are Borderline themselves.

DBT attempts to address the “difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities.”  If you're like me, you don't have "difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities"- instead you have difficulties *with other people* who have "difficulties with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities."

Tread cautiously.

[brenbabe]

If DBT isnt good for nons, which I agree with by the way. How can it be good for people that have BPD?   I have been reading about schema therapy developed by Dr. Jeffrey Young. He has a clinic in NYC. I contacted him. The cost of schema therapy at that clinic is 5,000 per year and must be attended at the clinic in NYC for three years, so 15,000 total.

There is no DBT or Schema therapy or any other treatment for BPD in the state where I live , Vermont. I have done an extensive search for practioners that treat BPD, there is NONE.  The best I found was a small group for women only with BPD that meets infrequently to work out of the DBT workbook here in the Burlington area.

So whats the hope if someone with BPD wants treatment and happens to live in Vermont?

[Mystic]

Sigh.  I'm taking a simpler approach and reading everything I can get my hands on about finding forgiveness. 

Two books presently on the docket:

Radical Forgiveness... .makes a lot of sense, kind of hangs heavily in the spiritual/metaphysical realm.  I think a lot of good info there, will take time to work through. 

Also Finding Forgiveness (with a forward by the Dalai Lama).  I'm only a few chapters in and am very impressed.  Acknowledges our pain and anger, and offers information and encouragement on letting it go and seeking peace.  I'm totally up for that.  A good read so far. 

I'm also a great believer in the power of prayer.  I don't think there's much any of us can do for the people in our lives who are suffering from pd's, even if we are still in contact with them, but we can pray for them, and to me, that can be huge... .maybe even everything they need.  If you still love your ex, but can't be in contact with them... .try prayer.  It sure can't hurt... .and it may help you heal too.

[Skip]

So whats the hope if someone with BPD wants treatment and happens to live in Vermont?

There are 29 registered DBT sites in Vermont.

www.behavioraltech.org/resources/crd.cfm

These contacts may also help:

Attn: Sue Swindell – DBT

108 Cherry Street

Box 70

Burlington, VT 05402  

suesw@wcmhs.org

(802) 223-6328

Nick Nichols

nick.nichols@ahs.state.vt.us

(802) 241-2601.



The DBT Vermont State Consultation Team

The Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) State Consultation Team is comprised of five Vermont clinicians who have extensive experience providing training and consultation on DBT. The consultation team was formed in 2003 to provide DBT leadership, training, program mentoring and clinical consultation to Vermont community and inpatient DBT programs. The members of the consultation team have extensive experience with developing and operating DBT programs in the following settings and with the following populations: DBT in typical community mental health settings, DBT Residential Programs, DBT partial hospitalization and inpatient programs, DBT-informed treatment for adolescents, DBT treatment for individuals with severe and persistent mental illness, DBT-informed treatment for individuals with developmental disabilities.

Members of the consultation team provide yearly training on the core elements of DBT for clinicians interested in practicing DBT, and they are also available to provide on-site training, mentoring, and consultation to DBT programs as requested. To request on-site consultation/training or inquire about the next DBT training being conducted by the team, please contact Nick Nichols at nick.nichols@ahs.state.vt.us or (802) 241-2601.

[brenbabe]

thank you Skip for answering 

Not sure as 2010 says, that DBT works anyway. I think if it cant help a NON it certainly cant be of help to someone actually with BPD. The schema therapy looks the most promising I think .

[2010]

DBT is fine for "nons." I also think it's a fine attempt at getting through to a Borderline. I just dont see the positive psychological aspect of having them both in the same room. Putting a person who may be depressed and traumatized by a Borderline into a room filled with more Borderline dysfunction should be outlawed.  If there is any benefit, it would take a skilled ringmaster to translate the word salad.  If the goal of dbt is to present a dialectical argument to people who are having trouble with logic and reason- then realize that you're only going to be in with a group of people who have trouble with logic and reason- and that's probably why you're depressed in the first place.

This forum sometimes is visited by Borderlines, but we are at opposite ends of the World. Imagine what that would be like if you were in the same room with several Borderlines acting out and speaking in tongues.  Would that trigger you?  Suzie Chaos starts in on a rant and Joanie Hermit is sitting alone at the back of the room, sulking.  John-John is cowering and clinging. Fascinating to watch- but lets not forget why we're there. The ringmaster attempts what is known as a dialectic, which is a form of an argument that holds differing views and work shops the ability to reason between them to see both points of view. It's the hope that logic and reason win out and everybody gets it and takes it home to live a better, happier life. DBT = "don't be tense."

Since Borderline is an attachment disorder, and attachment leads to suffering... ."Attachment leads to suffering, detachment leads to freedom" -(just like you see written in the sidebar at right of the screen.) Feelings are discussed and alternative behaviors worked out with new behaviors taken home for practicing, presumably to live a better life amongst the "nons."  

One of the drawbacks to DBT therapy is that the "nons" don't also get therapy- that's a big matzo ball hanging out there.  Often the "non" doesn't want the Borderline to get well. I personally witnessed multiple paybacks toward the new behaviors... .and I began to see how challenging it can be to a recovering Borderline to try and *become* someone else. For the most part, the "nons" had issues of their own that went deep- and much of it was anger. As the therapy progressed, acting out behaviors came from the opposite end- almost as though they thought the newly therapeuticized Borderline could handle it now. Just as Lloyd Braun on Seinfeld says, "Serenity now, insanity later."  Very sad indeed.

DBT can be read on-line. Try it. If you dont like it- try something else. You don't need allot of money to go to therapy- you just need to talk to the right people. Reasoning and logic are always going to get at the truth.  

Attachment leads to suffering is a Buddhist philosophy. For example: Are you worried? Why? Can you do anything about it? What can you do? Did you try something and it's no longer working? Why not let go? What's keeping you from letting go? Are you worried? Why? Can you do anything about it? What can you do? Did you try something and it's no longer working? Why not let go? What's keeping you from letting go? Are you worried? Why? And so on... .That's really what dbt addresses.

[brenbabe]

I have been in therapy for all 4 years that I was connected with my ex, even when he wasnt with me. I am still in therapy even after ending the relationship for good. I would like nothing better then to see my ex get help and be his best , not for me or to be with me but for himself . I would be willing to give him the 5,000 dollars per year to get therapy. And no he wouldnt owe me a dime or a relationship. A person has to want help though and he never made any attempts to get it or ask for it. His life is his road not mine.

There is a DBT workbook you can purchase for about 30 dollars. Also there is the book by Dr. Jeff Young called" reinventing your life" it looks at the different schema's in your life and how to change them. I have orderd the book and plan to work it.

which is said to be a good book for nons or those with BPD.

[Skip]

I was wondering what your thoughts were on temporary DBT or CBT to try and repair the damage in thought processes and responsive behaviors that I have been conditioned to do through this r/s... .

any thoughts?  or am I just jumping the gun and not being patient with my own recovery and healing from this r/s?

Do you have a psychiatrist that has evaluated you for meds?  If so, I would pose this question to him.  You could also discuss it with your current therapist - that is not unusual.

I used CBT a while back at it was very helpful - I felt hugely better after just the first session - although it takes numerous session to complete the work.  CBT is very here and now.

This may help.

Psychoanalytic therapy,  which is what you are doing now was founded by Sigmund Freud.  Psychoanalytic therapists generally spend time listening to patients talk about their lives, which is why this method is often referred to as "talk therapy." The therapy provider will look for patterns or significant events that may play a role in your current difficulties. Psychoanalytic therapy focuses on the childhood events and unconscious feelings, thoughts and motivations that play a role in mental illness and maladaptive behaviors.

Cognitive and behavioral therapies are used for treating specific problems - it is very focused on the present. The goal of CBT is to help you to reduce your symptoms by changing the way you think about or interpret situations, as well as the actions that you take in your daily life.

Dialectical Behavior Therapy and Schema-Focused Therapy are specialized types of CBT that were developed primarily to treat BPD.  :)BT is far more established and studied.  Schema is a newer therapy.   Schema seems to resonate with patients pretty well - the drop out rates are not as high as with DBT.

Private vs Group Therapy  Private therapy focuses on you.  Group therapy focuses on learning about yourself by looking at others.   The benefit of group therapy is it help patients that may feel isolated or defective and it is interactive learning - this is the basis of bpdfamily.  The key with group therapy is finding a group of peers.  Being put into the wrong group can be very discouraging.

We have more information on our resources website (bpdresources.net) and links to studies and other information.

[balancing act]

DBT is to teach distress tolerance skills.  BPD's definitely benefit from DBT.

my stbx dBPDH went through a full year of DBT, and it helped him learn a lot of tools, and he seemed much happier for the first 8 to 10 months.  Then he seemed to level off, then started to act out in less obvious, more subversive ways.  It was almost like he learned how to rechannel his anger but he was still the same at the core.  However, I still think it was very helpful for him, because overall he does have better skills and doesn't blow up at strangers, store clerks, etc. as much.  I think the benefit started wearing off because he quit going as often as he was supposed to.  They key is to stay in it for a long time, then stay in weekly review or weekly therapy, which my BPD didn't do.

He suggested I go to DBT, and I considered it.  Went to the initial intake interview, and the counselor told me that I didn't need to learn distress tolerance skills, as it appeared my problem was that I tolerated too much distress. (I allowed my BPD to get away with everything).

So I bought the work book on DBT skills by marsha linehan, and am reading other books to help strengthen myself, and praying a lot. I use some of the skills from the DBT workbook to help me keep calm when my BPD is trying to goad me.

[searching4hope]

Thank you everyone for your responses... .your thoughts have given me a lot to think about... .I'm just so anxious to repair the damage that has been done, but maybe I just need to be patient with the healing process. 

the counselor told me that I didn't need to learn distress tolerance skills, as it appeared my problem was that I tolerated too much distress. (I allowed my BPD to get away with everything).

I think this is probably exactly right... .I tolerated WAY too much distress and this is why I'm so broken... .

I think I'm just so afraid of how the damage from this relationship will manifest in my life in the future so I have this need to do some damage control.  However I know that I can't possibly know the ramifications this experience has had on my life until I start to live again.

So thats what I will do... .Start to live again.  And when things come up, I'll address them then. 


Thank you all so much for your thoughts   

[newworld]

If DBT isnt good for nons, which I agree with by the way. How can it be good for people that have BPD?   I have been reading about schema therapy developed by Dr. Jeffrey Young. He has a clinic in NYC. I contacted him. The cost of schema therapy at that clinic is 5,000 per year and must be attended at the clinic in NYC for three years, so 15,000 total.

There is no DBT or Schema therapy or any other treatment for BPD in the state where I live , Vermont. I have done an extensive search for practioners that treat BPD, there is NONE.  The best I found was a small group for women only with BPD that meets infrequently to work out of the DBT workbook here in the Burlington area.

So whats the hope if someone with BPD wants treatment and happens to live in Vermont?

yes, there are many places that do DBT in Vermont.

One of the best places on the east coast is there. it's called the Windham center. it's in Bellows falls.