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Author Topic: My ex willing to answer any questions I have...  (Read 456 times)
RedDevil66
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« on: January 07, 2011, 11:21:09 AM »

Quick run down, was with my ex for 5 yrs. Always knew something wasn't right with him

He's an alcoholic (never a fall down drunk but really "functional", been in AA and sober 2 yrs and is in 12 step group.

Once he stopped drinking, the beast came out. He was GREAT when he drank. No lies (that I caught him in) and we were ok.

Then the lies started, the gaslighting, the cheating.

When I finally caught him cheating back in Aug, I left him for good.

He went right into 12 step group because he said he needed to fix himself for what he did. But I know he continued seeing the married cow he cheated on me with. And hooked up with many other women as well.

Never knew about BPD until this last few weeks. I looked because we still had some contact and I realized he was truly not well with how he replied!

During some of our contact a few months back, I told him I still had so many questions about why he did what he did and the lies.

He said he would answer my questions, but I didn't think there was any point since I knew all his answers would be lies.

I went NC with him for a while and caved when he emailed me new yrs eve. He has been very clear that he doesn't want to be in a relationship and that he was keeping the focus on him and working his steps. Again, I partly believe him.

I also had access (no longer go there) to his web history and see he's been home every night (even on weekends) and just on line doing benign things.

He told me a few days ago he was going to make amends to his ex wife. His ex cheated on him after a 20 yr marriage and kicked him out. They have 3 kids.

He was destroyed when she cheated. I somehow think he cheated as well

Then I mention again about all the questions he left me with and how much damage this did. He said he would meet me with a 3rd party (therapist or my friend who is a therapist) if I want or alone to help me sift through any of the pain he caused.

I declined of course, but then I thought about it, and thought maybe this would help me.

Since he's in recovery, I may get some truths.

Am I fooling myself into believing this will help me get closure?

Is this a trick just so he can show me that he's a better person?

Is this just me hoping he can change and one day we can be ok again?

I never was so stuck over a break up in my life!

help! Gentle replies please! I'm really fragile today

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Annaleigh
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 11:34:10 AM »

I don't know... .it seems contact just re-engages us.  If he's nice, you'll start thinking, well maybe.  If he's mean, it's reopening the wounds. 

He said he doesn't want to be in a relationship.  He has been very clear.  Believe him.

I know how hard this is to disengage.  Contact is pulling the bandaid off real slow.  The pain goes on and on.

Loving yourself is protecting your heart.  Allowing only good healthy things into your personal life.  I would not want to sit with a person that didn't love me anymore, that caused me pain and be in a room listening to his side.  No no no no no.  No more access to possible emotional pain. No.

He was/is sick.  Someday he might be sorry, he might be sorry right now.  Ok, fine.  We know that about our abusers, someday they might be sorry.  But they are moving on.  Let them. 

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 11:44:16 AM »

RedDevil66... .I totally understand your confusion and how torn you must be. If I were in your shoes I don't know what I would do. The 'logical' part of me says... .don't meet with him, move on... .but then if I always listened to my logical side I wouldn't be here. If my ex proposed meeting with me to explain things... .I would really analyze the situation and if I felt strong enough not to get sucked back in... .I would probably go. I might be the wrong person to take advice from though... .I still have so many questions and I want nothing more than to hear my ex say he is sorry for something, ANYTHING. I still can't deal with the fact that he left and seems so unemotional about me/us... .it's like I never existed. I still want some sort of acknowledgment from him... .but 'logically'... .I know that won't happen... .not in my case anyway.
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RedDevil66
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 12:41:22 PM »

thanks ladies... .He says he doesn't want a relationship (cause in 12 steps they tell them no relationships while in recovery) but at the same time he says "I still care about you so much and always will and if we can be friends, that would be great. I still love you"

And keep in mind, I was able to see his web history for months and saw he was looking at our pics on his FB and looking at my FB over and over! I know he still loves me. If he didn't, there is no way he would meet me in front of my therapist.

Having said this, it's about me now and can I be strong enough to take what I need from this meeting to talk and walk away knowing I can't be with him ever again?

I sit in al anon and hear stories about couples who recovered only when the addict is in recovery and I think "well this man did walk into AA without me every asking him to, quit drinking cold turkey and then went into a 12 step program which he avoided because he was terrified and he did it. He goes to AA 4 x a week as well"

Then my rational mind comes back to me and I say ":)o I want an addict as a partner, even in recovery. Will he fall off the wagon and cheat again. yes, not drink, I LOVED him when he was drinking, it's the cheating and lying that made me sick"

And all that aside, as sick as he is/was and still can be, there were so many good times.

My therapist also pointed out to me that I made a lot of mistakes as well while in this relationship and maybe a part of me wants to make amends as well.

A part of me also hopes that if we sit in front of my friend or therapist, he will admit he's got a personality disorder. But that's just part of my need for control as well.

yes, confusion at it's finest!

I TRULY thought once I left him I would be happy and relieved. I Have not felt of of these feelings in the months!

I'm not lacking in men to date, I am asked out all the time, so it's not about being lonely! I'm stumped!


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vre
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 02:04:24 PM »

My therapist also pointed out to me that I made a lot of mistakes as well while in this relationship and maybe a part of me wants to make amends as well.

The above strikes me as less than helpful.

We all make mistakes every day of our lives, in our relationships and everywhere else.

I've heard cheating described as a "mistake" as well. This doesn't cut it. Did he trip and fall on top of someone?

This guy seems to have a lot of experience in manipulating you and exploiting your vulnerabilities. If he knows that you want some honest answers above all else, what better bait than to seem to offer them? You probably know best from your own experience: has he ever offered to clear up some problem situation and then followed through in an honest and straightforward manner?

Just because he obsesses over you doesn't make him partner material. I have a BIL who is still worked up over his first xW. This hasn't stopped him from cheating on whoever he's with, or marrying and divorcing twice more, in the 10 years since.
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RedDevil66
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 04:13:05 PM »

VRE: we have done couples therapy in the past, once at my request, once at his. We also went to an AA Al Anon couples group, at his request. Each time I went, I stopped because I just could not understand why he was so dead about it. Now I know why!

I can't understand or analyze his motives because I probably truly never know, but if I were to meet with him, it would be about me looking for answers.

Cheating is a symptom of a bad relationship in most cases, in this case, cheating was about his dire need for attention from other women. I could have given him all he needed and it would not have been enough.

I don't take any blame for cheating, but I do acknowledge my own very damaging shortcomings in this relationship.
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2010
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 05:18:50 PM »

Excerpt
I finally caught him cheating back in Aug, I left him for good.

It's important to ask your friend, the therapist what she thinks the intention of combined therapy is.  Is it to run screaming in anger and tears from the room? Or is it just to have a little bigger dose of poison to get over this guy? One that finally makes you say it's over for good? Or is it to make the relationship work? -Right there we have a problem.

Often times BPD is mistaken by the relationship partner because it's something read on the Internet and it really should be NPD. Not knowing the difference makes healing from the relationship harder because you are not realizing that the attention you give him is also his need for attention, i.e; narcissistic supply.

Narcissistic supply, (the need for attention) is not the same as clinging/distancing behaviors. Narcissistic supply follows reward, but it doesn't create fears to the narcissist when the reward turns BAD.  He doesn't withdraw from bad reward because it's still attention. He just devalues that bad attention as a secondary source of supply (second banana object) and moves on to new supply that doesn't have his number yet. In the meantime, he can return for bad attention when he's in need of attention. The worst thing for a Narcissist is to be ignored.

NPD is a pattern of behavior that seeks attention from objectified sources. Not as an acting out behavior, but as a puppet master behavior to reinforce the grandiosity of himself.  BPD, on the other hand, is a deficient self, and it looks to others for self fulfillment, but in the form of a clinging fusion to them.  Essentially, the Borderline wants to be carried- the Narcissist wants to appear above people while subsuming and swallowing them whole.

NPD seeks to appear separate from others while subsuming others as extensions of themselves.  People do not exist separately from the narcissist. They may be devalued and then excreted out the back end in a discarded fashion, but they are now considered "owned."

The narcissists idea of himself can consist of many women all wanting him. It can also exist of many people in AA wanting him. Doesn't matter if he's in therapy or not- he will twist this idea of subsumed objects (women) into narcissistic supply (attention) that gives him what he wants and needs (proof that he exists.) Your facebook photos will be great in this regard- and in therapy as a real life object, you'll be even better. Quite useful actually to reinforce his construct of himself.  The NPD relationship began with valuation, and ends with devaluation and discard. However, once discarded you will be recycled as needed to reinforce the Narcissist's idea of himself as proof of existing. Pictures speak a thousand words to attract new supply.

In both scenarios (BPD or NPD) the therapy that you would enter would triangulate you with a therapist who would be refereeing a post mortem of a failed relationship- technically with the intention of overcoming issues and moving toward the goal line of a touchdown that would free up the anxiety for both people. That goal would be you and he either letting go of his indiscretions with you overcoming his need for his "married cow" while learning to trust one another. The therapist will take note of your anger over this OW while asking you why the anger is directed away from this Man.

Your rage is not aimed at your unfaithful partner, but rather it is directed at "the other woman" (who more often than not has been seduced and deceived by a self centered narcissist herself.)  When rage is channeled away from the partner and toward their "objects" it can signify many things; notably the idea of marriage to you as a sacred institution and the feelings toward yourself that desire this Man as your partner.  (A Man who lets you down time and time again.) That in itself should be enough for the therapist to break off combined therapy with this Man and go to single therapy.

Your thinking that the OW is a part of the problem. She's certainly got her glass full at the moment, but at great expense to her marriage and her future life. The goal of personal therapy would be to show you how interchangeable you both are. She's no different to you as an object to this Man. I cannot imagine a professional therapist actually encouraging you toward this combined therapy without getting you to acknowledge that you and the other woman are in the same boat.  

You've got to detach from this and seek counsel about your ideas of why you are better than her. It could be because you are listening to someone who is very skilled at making you believe it while they play you along. Maybe it's time to let words fade and let actions speak loudly.  Eventually you'll see a theme or pattern.

Until you acknowledge that there are other women beside the married OW, you are dealing with malignant optimism. It's not just that all he has to do is choose you and stick with it. If he is a Narcissist, he wants all of you (the others as well) because you *all* represent his grandiosity. Combined therapy is just another entry point for manipulation by him.  He must be a really important person to have you join him in therapy. Do you see the manipulation?

Words on a screen and pictures on facebook dont mean a thing- Actions count- and the desire to work together in therapy is nothing more than giving him a pig in the corn bucket of narcissistic supply. With two women in a trapped room discussing him, imagine the delight. This is a character disordered person. BPD or NPD, it doesn't matter. You cannot change it, you didn't cause it and you cannot cure it.

Time to begin self discovery and ask yourself why you think this person would make a brilliant partner for you when he's so obviously shown otherwise. Change the password to his web history and let him get a new one. Stop searching for clues that don't add up. He's got to get his own help and that goes for you too. Idea

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vre
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 06:29:34 PM »

2010 said it all, but I will offer just a few more remarks. I hope it doesn't come across as picking on you.

I can't understand or analyze his motives because I probably truly never know, but if I were to meet with him, it would be about me looking for answers.

Allow me to suggest that you are contradicting yourself here. If you don't really expect to ever understand his motives, looking for answers from him is tilting at windmills. You likely burn to understand this experience. Try to think carefully about the directions you allow this hunger to lead you. 

Cheating is a symptom of a bad relationship in most cases, in this case, cheating was about his dire need for attention from other women. I could have given him all he needed and it would not have been enough.

I don't take any blame for cheating, but I do acknowledge my own very damaging shortcomings in this relationship.

It seems possible for a normal person to slide into cheating if a relationship is unrewarding. Are you thinking you should apologize because your behavior was so bad that he might've cheated anyway even if he was normal?

It speaks well of your conscience that you want to satisfy moral debts even to someone who wronged you greatly.  But even so, is there any doubt that nearly all the bad behavior was by him? That urge to make amends to him may not be coming from your better self.
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RedDevil66
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 07:11:06 PM »

2010, That is some reply and one I will need to re read a few times.

This reply pretty much just made me see that his intentions are to feed his own self.

Been struggling with the fact that he is BP and NP. But I know he's both.

I'm not so much pissed at the OW, but I do know that she is nothing to him as well. She's married with 4 kids and over 250 lbs. Both my ex and I are super fit and atheletic. She was just a source. He was turned off my overweight people so it was not about being attracted to her. He used her! this I see now. My anger is at him!

And yes, I'm just a string of other women that fuel his pathetic ego and need for attention.

Detaching from this has been harder than anything I've ever done. I didn't have this much trouble when my ex of 11 yrs cheated on me and left me.  

I no longer go into the history and the last time I did, I made it obvious someone was in there and he changed the password.

I am just a supply for him, I see this now. This is so painful! I need to accept this and this is what I struggle with.

VRE: I'm in Al Anon and step group as well, so part of my steps is to make amends. I didnt always treat him very well. I do feel guilt about that. It does come from my better self. I've been in recovery for 15 months.

My therapist even said my conduct was not good with him. Not to blame him, but I acted out towards him according to his conduct. Either way, I didn't deserve the lies, the cheating and the other mean things he did to me! Never!

Reality is hitting me more and more as I come to this site.

Very painful and I know if I told him to leave me alone for good, he would! why can't I?

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SeekingBalance
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 07:41:08 PM »

2010, That is some reply and one I will need to re read a few times.

This reply pretty much just made me see that his intentions are to feed his own self.

Been struggling with the fact that he is BP and NP. But I know he's both.

I'm not so much pissed at the OW, but I do know that she is nothing to him as well. She's married with 4 kids and over 250 lbs. Both my ex and I are super fit and atheletic. She was just a source. He was turned off my overweight people so it was not about being attracted to her. He used her! this I see now. My anger is at him!

And yes, I'm just a string of other women that fuel his pathetic ego and need for attention.

Detaching from this has been harder than anything I've ever done. I didn't have this much trouble when my ex of 11 yrs cheated on me and left me.  

I no longer go into the history and the last time I did, I made it obvious someone was in there and he changed the password.

I am just a supply for him, I see this now. This is so painful! I need to accept this and this is what I struggle with.

VRE: I'm in Al Anon and step group as well, so part of my steps is to make amends. I didnt always treat him very well. I do feel guilt about that. It does come from my better self. I've been in recovery for 15 months.

My therapist even said my conduct was not good with him. Not to blame him, but I acted out towards him according to his conduct. Either way, I didn't deserve the lies, the cheating and the other mean things he did to me! Never!

Reality is hitting me more and more as I come to this site.

Very painful and I know if I told him to leave me alone for good, he would! why can't I?

Wait a second, you need to make amends for reacting less than perfectly to extremely bad behaviour?

Uh-uh, no you don't.

That's like saying, I'm sorry I caved while being tortured, or were you actually trained as a marine special forces agent?  If you weren't, then you have very little to feel badly about, in my opinion.

I think 2010 has it right.  I think if he had been out every night with a different woman, casually dating and living the high life AND he still was willing to go to a therapist with you THEN something might be up.  However, he's stuck at home, not doing anything, obsessing over you AND perhaps others, who knows. 

What would make you feel stronger?  Saying no?  I am thinking it probably would.  I am thinking you probably wish you had the strength to say no and feel indifference.  So that is the right answer.  The right thing to do often is not accompanied by feelings, otherwise, doing the right thing would always be easy.  Do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing, for yourself.  Keep doing it, even if it's just one step by one step... .sooner or later, the feelings will catch up to you - and those feelings will be:  indifference.
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ToBorNotToB
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2011, 08:08:28 PM »

ok, girl, stop beating yourself up! you said you were fragile, so be gentle to yourself. Great responses from everyone, and kudos to you for being able to see how valuable and caring all the advice is from those who took the time in hope it would give you strength.

you said, he doesn't want a r/s, but wants to be friends... .let me guess, friends with benefits? do you miss him or the benefits? because clearly you weren't friends if he felt he had to hide stuff from you. if he needed validation from being with another woman, would you have said, "oh, sure, go ahead, go have sex with her, i don't mind at all!" - that's what a real friend would do. would you be able to be that for him? would you want to? What i'm trying to say is, please ask yourself for a clear answer, what is it specifically that you miss about this guy? and do you want those things even if he is not 100% yours? if the answer is yes, then go ahead and "use" him. and if you feel good about that, then it was the right thing to do. maybe the problem is that you want something you know you can't have, and it has nothing to do with this guy. you already know he is not the kind who would never cheat. so if you can say, "oh, i don't care who he's with, why and when, as long as I can have A,b, and C with him", then by all means, continue being in touch. if that is not the answer, then you're not being careing and loving to yourself, because you're setting yourself for a very disappointing hurtful experience, and you will be sad, frustrated, and angry yet again. Sit yourself down, forget about therapists and friends, and ask yourself, what do I want/need from this guy that I can't get from dating other guys? and go for it. Be nice and gentle to yourself, we are all too hard on ourselves, and never ask ourselves, "what do we really want/need?"
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RedDevil66
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 08:34:45 PM »

ThankGod: yes, indifference is something I want, simply because it's too painful.

Making amends for my part is part of my recovery. I wasn't perfect and put him down. Sure much of my distain towards him was because of how he acted, but I need to accept the part where I was a bully and mean when he didn't earn that.

But you are right, feelings and doing the right thing are different. I know what the right thing is, but my feelings have not caught up to my logic.

A little part of me still feels since he's doing recovery of his own accord, just maybe I can try to be nice to him.



ToBorNotToB: No, not friends with benefits. He never asked and that is not the type of people we are.

I miss the good things we shared, but do not miss ANY of the bad! No, at the end, we were not friends. We had been friends, but at the end, there was no friendship.

My guess is he wants to be "friends" because he wants to have a chance at a "new" relationship once he is done with his step group ORRRRRR he wants to keep me on the backburner.

He did say a few weeks ago "I need to accept if you meet someone else. I would be so sad, but I can't let it disrupt my recovery.  If we are meant to be, it will be. But I want us to be friends and take it day by day and go slow and not have any expectations"

Then he did go on to say "I don't want to lead you on, but can't close the door either"

Which I thought odd since I didn't tell him I wanted back, but I think he sense my deep sadness over this loss.

I DON'T want to be his friend because one, it's too hard to be friends and two, because I can't trust anything he says.

It would have been so much easier to detach and walk away if he was still a drinker not in recovery and out every night with some other woman. I would be OVER it after 5 months!

But you're right, I'm not being gentle and kind to me. Allowing myself the space for my own recovery is being gentle!

You guys are really helping me... .thank you so much !

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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 06:16:38 AM »

Time to begin self discovery and ask yourself why you think this person would make a brilliant partner for you when he's so obviously shown otherwise.

IMO ... The most important and compelling question a suffering person should ask themselves.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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RedDevil66
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 12:59:18 PM »

After just writing and re reading this thread, I've made a very firm decision to not meet with him nor have any contact with him again.

2010, you are so right about all that you said. You're very wise! I'm nothing but a source for him. Always was and always will be, He treats his own kids as sources, so why would I or anyone be any different.

This man has done so much emotional and psychological abuse to me and his kids, it almost feels like I can't repair or heal.

I've walked away from people many times in my life who were abusive, but this was so subtle and I started to believe I was crazy, so I was blind to his abuse!

And just knowing that if I ignore him, he will be hurt, makes ignoring him that much easier. I'm sorry to say, I want this person to hurt!

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 03:17:12 PM »

And just knowing that if I ignore him, he will be hurt, makes ignoring him that much easier. I'm sorry to say, I want this person to hurt!

That's understandable ... but at some point this has to be for "you" ... .for "your" life ... .for "your" well-being ... .

Take care ... .RedDevil ... .it sounds like you have made a good decision for yourself ... .all you have to do now is to stick to it. Which is the hardest part but also the most rewarding part.

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