Parents with Adult Kids with BPD: Grandparents Rights

[Parents! Get help here!]

 Hi!

There have been a flurry of posts by grandparents struggling to find ways to be supportive of their grandchildren caught up in the drama and chaos of a family with a BPD parent. Each situation is unique in many ways, and only those involved can choose the path that best fits their family's needs.

Having experienced  both having custody of my gd5 and choosing to step back from my gs3 when he was placed in foster care at 5 mos. and ultimately adopted by the foster family just after his second birthday - I have shared in the painfulness of being grandparent here at bpdfamily.com. I am NOT A LAWYER, and strongly suggest at least consulting with a lawyer in the state where your grandchild(ren) live that has experience in non-parental visitation and custody issues.

In doing this searching today, I realize what a wonderful gift my exSIL gave us by convincing my DD to agree to give dh and I the "allocation of parental responsibilities" (custody in CO) of our gd when she was 18 months old. It was expected to be temporary - the judge signed the order as permanent, though always open to modification by petition. His explanation to me at the time, privately spoken, was his fear that DD would not allow him to see his daughter (he was just recently out of jail) as a tool to manipulate him. We had already petitioned the court for custody and had hired a lawyer to argue case law to establish our standing (right to petition) as grandparents. My heart goes out to all of you here that are struggling with these issues.    

Establishing our rights to have a relationship with our grandchildren rests on our shoulders in most states - to show that there is good reason to override the presumption of the 'natural' parents rights to make the decisions about their children's lives that is stated clearly in our country's consitution. Each state has its own laws and cases that apply to children that live there. There are posts and resources to be found also in other boards here at bpdfamily.com from lots of parents and grandparents:

Raising a child when one parent has BPD board

Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody

Here are a few of the sites I found in my searching today, just for reference. The more information we have, the better able we are to document EVERYTHING that goes on in our grandchilrens' lives. Judges look at FACTS, not feelings.

My hope is this information will help with this difficult, painful process.

www.grandparents.com/gp/content/expert-advice/legal/index.html

www.grandparenting.org/Grandparent_Visitation.htm      Includes links for USA, Canada and UK

www.grandparents.about.com/od/grandparentsrights/Grandparents_Rights.htm

www.childcustodycoach.com/grandparent-visitation.html

Whatever your particular situation, IMHO, the more loving adults that can be involved in a child's life in any supportive way is in the best interests of the child. And yes, I do understand that there are grandparents that are the ones with the mental illness and the parents need to have the ability to protect their kids in those situations. That is why it is often needed to go to court, and hope all sides of each story can be presented - so the best interests of the child can be the true focus.

Thanks for letting me share this with you all.

qcr       

[qcarolr]

 Hi!

There have been a flurry of posts by grandparents struggling to find ways to be supportive of their grandchildren caught up in the drama and chaos of a family with a BPD parent. Each situation is unique in many ways, and only those involved can choose the path that best fits their family's needs.

Having experienced  both having custody of my gd5 and choosing to step back from my gs3 when he was placed in foster care at 5 mos. and ultimately adopted by the foster family just after his second birthday - I have shared in the painfulness of being grandparent here at bpdfamily.com. I am NOT A LAWYER, and strongly suggest at least consulting with a lawyer in the state where your grandchild(ren) live that has experience in non-parental visitation and custody issues.

In doing this searching today, I realize what a wonderful gift my exSIL gave us by convincing my DD to agree to give dh and I the "allocation of parental responsibilities" (custody in CO) of our gd when she was 18 months old. It was expected to be temporary - the judge signed the order as permanent, though always open to modification by petition. His explanation to me at the time, privately spoken, was his fear that DD would not allow him to see his daughter (he was just recently out of jail) as a tool to manipulate him. We had already petitioned the court for custody and had hired a lawyer to argue case law to establish our standing (right to petition) as grandparents. My heart goes out to all of you here that are struggling with these issues.    

Establishing our rights to have a relationship with our grandchildren rests on our shoulders in most states - to show that there is good reason to override the presumption of the 'natural' parents rights to make the decisions about their children's lives that is stated clearly in our country's consitution. Each state has its own laws and cases that apply to children that live there. There are posts and resources to be found also in other boards here at bpdfamily.com from lots of parents and grandparents:

Raising a child when one parent has BPD board

Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody

Here are a few of the sites I found in my searching today, just for reference. The more information we have, the better able we are to document EVERYTHING that goes on in our grandchilrens' lives. Judges look at FACTS, not feelings.

My hope is this information will help with this difficult, painful process.

www.grandparents.com/gp/content/expert-advice/legal/index.html

www.grandparenting.org/Grandparent_Visitation.htm      Includes links for USA, Canada and UK

www.grandparents.about.com/od/grandparentsrights/Grandparents_Rights.htm

www.childcustodycoach.com/grandparent-visitation.html

Whatever your particular situation, IMHO, the more loving adults that can be involved in a child's life in any supportive way is in the best interests of the child. And yes, I do understand that there are grandparents that are the ones with the mental illness and the parents need to have the ability to protect their kids in those situations. That is why it is often needed to go to court, and hope all sides of each story can be presented - so the best interests of the child can be the true focus.

Thanks for letting me share this with you all.

qcr       

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Grammy17201]

And thank YOU, qcarolr, for sharing your research.     



Grammy

[doodlebug58]

Thank you for posting this. I am new to the sight and this is one of the big issues issues. My DD25 and GD3 live with us.  Sometimes okay, other times life is hell. We thought to be almost at retirement by this point, but I truly believe we will eventually raise gd3.  I won't remove my dd from home because she threatens to take gd and I don't think she could care for her full-time.  I once mentioned custody and it brought a war on our heads.

MY gd3 does not deserve to see the scenes between my dd and me.  After doing a lot of reading I am starting to try to keep a little more distance, and spend more me time.  Any other suggestions?

[qcarolr]

Hi doodlebug58 - nice to she you here on the parent (and grandparent) board. There are a lot of things you can do to make your life more sane. Can I suggest that you post your own 'new topic' here so the many other parents in a similar situation can get to know you and help you. This thread has some valuable information, and is mostly a resource thread rather than a 'support' thread. Does that make any sense?

I do know how painful the threats of 'I am leaving and taking gd3 and you will never see us again" feels. And it is so hard to get custody, if that where your choice, when your D is always in the home with you and the gd. It is often just too hard to ask the  mommy to leave, knowing the gd would suffer along the way. Our BPDD, just turned 25, lived in our home several years with us and her daughter, event though we had legal custody. I went crazy trying to figure out what were my responsibilities and what were things i 'should' be 'making' DD do for her gd. ie. preschool meetings/party's, doctor visits, meals, bedtime. I never saw this as a permanent situation - dh and I raising gd til she is ready to move away from home. Yet all that turmoil did not lead to DD taking more responsibility - as long as dh and I (mostly me) were there to take over the responsibility, well she let us have it and then blamed us for 'not letting her raise her daughter - stealing her daughter'.

DD ended up in jail for an fight with a bf, and we choose to not bail her out. In fact, she was scary to me with vague threats of harm to us and our property so I got a restaining order. Yet as I have learned the skills from here and my AL Anon group - to take care of myself and let DD take care of herself more and more - our relationship has improved. And the reality for us is we are giong to be raising gd in our home permanently - and we are building a new, healthier relationship with DD25.

I know I haven't given you much concrete direction here. Have you started through the first post on this board:   What can a parent do? ? It is a good place to start.

I look forward to seeing your new topic post.

qcr

[Grammy17201]

Suggestion for doodlebug58,

The laws differ from state to state.  Because I live in PA (USA), and I had lived with my daughter and 2 grandchildren for more than the required year, I was able to go to court and won visitation rights with my grandchildren.  Now that they no longer live with me, the kids and I are able to enjoy time together from 10-4 every Wednesday, and 10-4 every other Sunday.  My counselor says that studies show that even minimal regular contact with a stable adult greatly increases these children's emotional health, and chances for success in life. 

So, I would suggest that you (without DD25 knowing about it) contact an attorney, and become informed of the laws that apply where you live.  Ask how you can legally insure that you can be part of your GD3's life as she grows up.  Perhaps there are things you can do now that could be helpful in the years to come. 

I also suggest you keep a locked diary of major events, important e-mails and texts, along with your GD3's birth certificate, SS#, etc.  Diaries can be admissible in court, if ever needed, and, if you ever find you need certain documents, info, in a hurry, you will already have them. 

[qcarolr]

Here is another link that has a good summary of the legal status of grandparents rights. It is complex legally and messy emotionally for all involved. We each have to choose the option is that best fit our situation.

"Your Guide to Grandparents Rights - Grandparents.com"

www.grandparents.com/family-and-relationships/grandparents-rights/grandparent-rights-guide

Even with custody, which is hard to obtain without interventions from child protective services, it is still messy. My heart is with all who come here for information to stay in their grandkids lives.

qcr

[behindme]

qcarolr - Thank you SO much for providing these links! Even though my uBPD exDIL is no longer actively in my life, since she has joint custody of my GS along with my son she is a very active presence in his life - for that reason I have concerns, real and imagined "what if" scenarios.  These links are terrific to check out and keep in mind for future reference.

I thought we had gotten some very good advice now that we're planning an out of state trip with the little guy - to have written acknowledgement from the ex DIL with us when we travel to safeguard against any false accusations - i.e. that we took him against her wishes, knowledge, etc - but my son told me that such a letter is part of their divorce agreement which I was relieved to hear. There may be some very basic, sound advice contained in the links you provided I'm anxious to look into.

Thanks very much for this information. 

[EvolvingMom]

Hello Everyone,

My daughter cut me out of her life 2 years ago.  She never told me why but does tell others that "she knows" the reason.  Since her estrangement, I've learned that she has arbitrarily assigned my grandparent rights to a woman she met in Tennessee who helped her when she was pregnant.  She plans on raising her little girl to believe that this woman is her grandmother.  She also plans to raise her daughter to believe that I was abusive to her mother and that for this reason, she will never know her grandmother.  Needless to say, all of this came as quite a shock.  First the estrangement 2 years ago and then to learn that she plans to create a false picture of who her child's grandmother is comes as a shock.

After questioning and doing research, I have a strong suspicion that my daughter is a high functioning individual with BPD.  Her father was diagnosed with schizophrenia.  His mother had been committed to a psychiatric hospital by her parents in the 1960's and her aunt on her father's side has a history of poor choices and drama.

I could take forever to discuss my daughter's issues, my history with her, and the events that led us to this situation.  Suffice it to say that for the first time in my life, I set a boundary with her and she didn't like it, so she cut me out of her life.  However, the main focus is twofold:  To get advice on creating a case for grandparent visitation rights and to open a dialogue with my daughter for purposes of guiding her toward therapy.

Right now my daughter is in hate mode and has been for over 2 years.  She and her husband moved to Hawaii from Tennessee and believe that I don't know where they are.  My daughter has cut off all means of communication and, although I sent a letter of apology right after the initial incident before she moved, she does not acknowledge it and refuses to open the door for any type of communication.

Hawaii grants grandparents rights on the basis of "Best interests of the child" and this is the best state to obtain grandparent rights from. Does anyone have any thoughts as to how to approach this situation?  All I can think as this time is ":)o no harm, Do no harm".  Also, I need a referral to a family law attorney or firm in Hawaii.  This is really a jumbled mess.  I'm good at puzzles, but this one is going to take a lifetime to work through.

I look forward to your responses.

[qcarolr]

I could take forever to discuss my daughter's issues, my history with her, and the events that led us to this situation.  Suffice it to say that for the first time in my life, I set a boundary with her and she didn't like it, so she cut me out of her life.  However, the main focus is twofold:  To get advice on creating a case for grandparent visitation rights and to open a dialogue with my daughter for purposes of guiding her toward therapy.

ForeverDad replied to EvolvingMom on her post to the legal board, and I thought it offers good infomation. He has allowed me to copy it here on the parent board: (qcr)

ForeverDad

Distinguished Member

Emeritus

   

Re: Estranged Grandmother Seeking Visitation for Child of BPD Daughter

« Reply #10 on: Today at 11:07:40 AM »

In a less imperfect world and with less unbalanced persons, you would share information with your daughter and son-in-law.  Sadly, it's not and she's not.

If there is any hope you can reach out to them and use communication skills outlined here - SET, DEARMAN, BIFF, etc - then that should be attempted first and whenever the opportunity arises.  Charging in would naturally get their defenses up, reactions and overreactions.  The legal format is by historical nature adversarial, often it is win or lose.  A person with BPD will see it as "all or nothing" and the biased perception would be "all for me and nothing for you".  So if there's any hope the current blocked status can be handled in a less confrontational, less triggering way, then that is the optimal approach.

Facing the facts, you are already blocked and the danger of the nicey-nice approach is that you may keep trying it for too long and you could lose your window of opportunity if meanwhile the court action proceeds and moves past you.  So here's another word of advice in your struggle to be an involved grandparent... .

As hard as it is to resist charging forward and telling her, her SIL or the professionals with the court that she has BPD, you must not do so, for various reasons.  As an example, my court calendar extends from 2005 to 2014.  She started out as temporary custodial parent with majority time, then shared parenting with equal time, then non-custodial parent with equal time, then non-custodial parent with minority time.  All these years she has perceived her ever-reduced as my fault.  Yet it was her behaviors that I used in court to get those baby-step improvements.  And court studiously avoided any mention of a diagnostic label.  That has been the experience of most members here.  Sometimes we get a diagnosis but generally not.  And getting a diagnosis is likely to result in a more vehement Denial and increased Obstruction.

First, courts and most professionals generally avoid talking of PDs or making mental health diagnoses.  If she's already been diagnosed then that Label might be considered, but generally they stick with the behaviors and behavior patterns.  You would be wise to do the same.

Second, courts and most professionals will not see you as someone qualified to talk about mental illness.  They don't want you to "play doctor".  (Even if you were a mental health expert and 'qualified' before the court, you'd be seen as an interested party and not impartial.  That's why doctors don't have themselves or their families as patients.)  However, you are able to document the poor behaviors and behavior patterns. Focus on that angle.

Third, she is not listening to you, anything you (try to) tell her would be perceived in a very distorted way due to the intense emotional baggage of the past history between you.  BPD is a an acting-out personality disorder most evident with close relationships.   The common attacks are by blaming, blame-shifting, projection, black-listing, denial, isolation, etc.

Have you also read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison?