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Author Topic: VIDEO | Critical Review: At Any Cost, Shari Schreiber  (Read 12912 times)
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2011, 09:35:44 PM »

Hmmm... .I'd like to try to contribute again to this discussion but from another angle.

I think that "painting" people with BPD (pwBPD) "black" can serve a useful purpose.  Such as by helping us disengage from our BPD loved one when that is our goal.  It certainly helped me access a lot of anger I previously had trouble accessing prior to being angry at her.  And there was a time that I hated my xuBPDgf more than I ever thought I could hate anyone. 

Before I knew about BPD, I painted her black via her ethnicity.  It did not help that she and my replacement shared an ethnicity I did not.  And for a while I identified myself as having prejudice against that ethnicity.  I freely admit this (ha, even though I do not provide the ethnicity).  And I am not proud of it.  This was part of my process. 

After learning about BPD and realizing that this afflicted my exBPDgf, my prejudice shifted away from prejudice against that ethnicity and towards prejudice against people who suffered from this disorder.  I don't know if fostering this prejudice, this hatred, was the best approach I could have taken.  But it was the road I walked.

Why did I foster this hatred?  Partly because I still had a lot of feelings to process through.  And before when I fostered the ethnicity prejudice, it was in the effort to avoid repeating the mistake of that kind of relationship.  But I still found a commonality in the other women I dated at the time.  There was something else that I kept stumbling upon and I could not put my finger on it.  And even though I probably did date other women with BPD, I never committed in the way that I did with my primary xuBPDgf.  Maybe if I learned about BPD I might have avoided dating those other BPD women.  That would have been useful.

But even after I got married and started a family, I was still haunted by the memory of my primary BPDgf.  I was still bothered by my experience and perhaps my own unresolved cognitive dissonances.  Hatred and prejudice (even though misguided) only helped me to avoid repeating my mistakes; it did not help me through the rest of what I considered my recovery process.  In fact, I wonder if it only deferred it.

My long term goal was to feel indifference towards my xuBPDgf and in order to get to that place I needed to let go of my anger and pick up and work on other things, my issues.  And I think that is the general point of why this article was reviewed the way that it was.  To put it all on "them" and to only leave it there, may leave a lot of other "recovery work" undone.  It may also only serve to set us up for the next fall.  Because until we work on our own issues, I think we may be inclined to make similar choices, similar mistakes.  As many mistakes as it takes to learn what we need to learn.

I'm sorry to speak in generalities and vagueness but we all have issues and some of the issues are different.  But that does not mean we don't have them.  As I see it, if I continued to foster my anger and hatred, I would still continue to be "haunted" and maybe I would choose to continue to blame these other people for my own discontent.  I did this for a while, probably longer than I needed to.  And I think it would be a great thing if others can be spared living with this unnecessarily.  Anger serves a purpose but in order to fully recover and heal, and get to a place where we don't care anymore, we need to let it go.

Anyway, that is how I see it.
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2011, 10:42:40 PM »

Shari Schreiber has an excellent article on her site entitled "If Looks Could Kill: Anatomy of a Borderline".  Here are a few passages:

"In the midst of mending from these intoxicating but dangerous relationships, dozens of men have described a terrifying "demonic" influence that appears to inhabit their beloved when she's confronted with her lying, manipulations and betrayals--or some sort of (minor) infraction on their part, has catalyzed the most horrifying change in her facial expression. Many have reported; "it's like sparks flew out of her eyes," or "there's such a cold and hideous mask" that showed up, they couldn't recognize the woman they've loved so deeply. If looks could kill, they believe they'd be dead after one of these episodes!

A female client recently expressed that her (male) borderline friend "looked like the Devil himself," during vitriolic rages where his terrible verbal abuses were spat at her, like molten lava spewing from a (suddenly) active volcano. Other times, she says his demeanor was very peaceful and "cherubic"--a man you'd never suspect, was capable of such volatility. But how does this facet of "pure evil" manifest in somebody we've felt so close and loving with, just minutes or hours earlier? Would they recognize themselves, if we held up a mirror when this vile darkness appears? Might they see the distorted face of their rageful/punitive parent, instead of their own? Could it be that's what you see in them?"


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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2011, 11:28:59 PM »

Problem is, these views paint a picture of a pwBPD as being so 'black' on the black and white spectrum, that it's no wonder so many BPDs are in denial. Read the article and posts.

If you were BPD and described this terrible way, wouldn't you reject a BPD diagnoses? I would. And I would be furious at my SO who told me I was BPD.
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2011, 04:31:46 AM »

Excerpt
I personally believe that when pwBPD "leave" us, they can put us through a kind of abandonment trauma.  After all, what is abandonment?  It is when someone you trust deeply betrays yours trust and severs their contact with you.  I think that often the way we are "left" we feel as though we were abandoned.  And so our reactions to this abandonment is not dissimilar to how pwBPD reaction when they experience their fear of abandonment.  Why else do you suppose so many of us nons feel and wonder if we are not the ones who are (also) suffering from BPD?

 I've never thought about it from that perspective.   Idea  This is a feeling I can relate to, empathize with.

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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2011, 07:31:01 PM »

schwing, another fantastic post, and i think it speaks to exactly the "getting stuck" problem everyone else is discussing.

i too believe (im fairly certain) that i've dated BPD's in the past. for the most part, my healing and moving on came as a result of devaluing (honestly, rightfully so) them and trying to reach indifference toward them without seeing my own role (i did see some issues of mine, and things i thought were "mistakes" that got me broken up with, but i didn't see it clearly, and i just learned defense mechanisms). like you, i'd made all kinds of comparisons between them all, and knew something was up.

so like i said, for the most part, i just increasingly tried to devalue the previous ones. to some extent this left me with a victim mentality. not necessarily a lot of anger, but victim mentality, perhaps even some triangulating dynamics (believing i'd been persecuted at least, and that each new one was a rescuer). all this ever did was land me in another one, until i met the one that landed me here.

this is why healing is necessary. this is why recognizing our own issues, as well as our own role in the relationship and it's demise are crucial. this time i can see exactly where i was wrong, mistaken, perhaps fooled or foolish, and now i can very clearly see a pattern of what got me into, and kept me in these relationships. NOW i stand a chance to really heal and not make the mistake again.

i do agree though, to some extent devaluing our exes is helpful. so many of us leave these relationships with such a skewed perspective, and with our exes on a pedestal. even though we feel wronged, even when we can't understand why in the world we're still pining for our ex when we practically couldn't even stand them. remembering the bad, remembering her nightmare behavior, has helped me recall what i dealt with and can never allow myself to deal with again, and remember how powerful those feelings that this was NOT what i wanted to deal with for the rest of my life, really bring me back to a healthy reality, and her to a much more balanced perspective. i do not demonize her, i don't believe she's a monster. neither is she an angel, or someone i should find myself pining for. at times i NEED to remember that.

so i think there's a healthy balance. anger is righteous. devaluing may be necessary. it just all needs to be conscious and appropriately worked through and balanced. it's something we all need to go through. if you don't devalue your ex to SOME extent, you can otherwise get stuck with distorted thoughts about how great it all was/they were. another thing in defense of shari. i've met a few borderlines, and read about several borderlines that yeah, i think they at least behave a little bit more "monstrously". i think perhaps shari's had a bit more experience with those, and i think she kind of speaks in general terms. there were lots of things she writes that i just didn't find applicable at all or agree with. she speaks kind of broadly, and with some uniformity. and that may be necessary for her audience. again, i took what i found useful, and there was a good amount of what i found useful. just like our thoughts and our process need balance, so do our sources of information, and again, this requires a discriminating mind.
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« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2011, 03:21:58 AM »

Hi,

After much research and understanding the head of a BPD... I realised that BPD is no label.

BPD is a system of thinking, feeling and actions which for us nons may be dsyfunctional, or against our values or thinking, but for the BPD that is a way of life and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I realised that my BPDw basically has a few symptoms of BPD, a little of NPD and a few more from ASPD. Plus she is aggressive by nature, is scared of being emotionally hurt or insulted.

She does well for herself with the outside world and she was good all these years. But the problem started after marriage when she was supposed to "conform" to social values and behaviours.

The only thing helped is for me to learn to deal with my own issues and let her be herself.
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2011, 08:33:44 PM »

I have to say that one thing that I really love about this board is that there is such great open-mindedness and respect for everyone's opinion along with a genuine mission toward critical analysis of all the issues at hand.

Twenty years ago people with BPD and their loved one's basically suffered alone. The internet has opened up so many doors- thrown them wide open, really. From my view, this is a positive thing for everyone. The more information about BPD that's out there, the better equipped we all are to cope with the hand we're dealt. But, not every source is credible or reliable, so having a critical eye (or belonging to a community like this where all viewpoints are considered) is important.

Now, there are lots of ways of gaining knowledge. I have a particular bias because I'm a researcher, so I am always looking for the empirical evidence for a particular statement/statements. I am so glad that this is something that comes up in the discussions on bpdfamily-- there is a research literature out there, and we are learning more and more about BPD, and some of what we learn from our research is quite surprising and counter-intuitive (i.e., Zanarini et al's research on the 10 year course of BPD, which was mentioned in this thread).

Of course, there are also many things we don't know about BPD. Actually, one of the most under-researched areas in BPD is in the domain of interpersonal relationships. So, I am always skeptical when anyone makes definitive statements about what is "true" about BPD relationships. We do know that the BPD label applies to a remarkably heterogeneous group of people who can look night and day from each other an can behave in very different ways in relationships. There is remarkable complexity and diversity in these relationships.

The research literature on BPD relationships is now growing exponentially, so more answers are coming. But I am so grateful for communities such as this one, that supplies credible and balanced information to those who need answers sooner rather than later.
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« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2011, 07:47:10 AM »

Shari Schreiber has an excellent article on her site www. that addresses this very topic, entitled "If Looks Could Kill: Anatomy of a Borderline".  Here are a few passages:

"In the midst of mending from these intoxicating but dangerous relationships, dozens of men have described a terrifying "demonic" influence that appears to inhabit their beloved when she's confronted with her lying, manipulations and betrayals--or some sort of (minor) infraction on their part, has catalyzed the most horrifying change in her facial expression. Many have reported; "it's like sparks flew out of her eyes," or "there's such a cold and hideous mask" that showed up, they couldn't recognize the woman they've loved so deeply. If looks could kill, they believe they'd be dead after one of these episodes!

A female client recently expressed that her (male) borderline friend "looked like the Devil himself," during vitriolic rages where his terrible verbal abuses were spat at her, like molten lava spewing from a (suddenly) active volcano. Other times, she says his demeanor was very peaceful and "cherubic"--a man you'd never suspect, was capable of such volatility. But how does this facet of "pure evil" manifest in somebody we've felt so close and loving with, just minutes or hours earlier? Would they recognize themselves, if we held up a mirror when this vile darkness appears? Might they see the distorted face of their rageful/punitive parent, instead of their own? Could it be that's what you see in them?"

I have to admit, I am very unimpressed with that website and think the author may do more harm than good.

For a woman who's supposed to be experienced in these matters, I find some of her writing to be confusing in certain areas and overly dramatic & derogatory in her descriptions. Surely, as a "professional", discussing mental illness ... she should exercise more care and respect?

No personal insult intended at all, I just have some issues with that particular website & the author ... .

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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 02:36:45 PM »

Good thread. I might as well throw my two cents in... .

To have to imply DEARMAN etc and more or less think very hard and carefully before you speak, walking on eggshells around your partner or family member?

This is my personal honest opinion but quite frankly its tiring, draining and for the good non's its something we do not deserve! Im not saying every non is a sant... but for what the borderlines have put us through...

To have choose to imply DEARMAN etc...

but for what the borderlines have put us we(non/BPD relationship partners) put ourselves through


We all have decisions to make in our life. We have to focus on our own mental health to make better judgments for ourselves. The advice on the staying board is not to sacrifice yourself to your loved one. The advice is to stop walking on eggshells (like the book). You have to take care of yourself first. How often do we see the words on the leaving board... .take care of yourself. When you have put yourself in a position that you are tired and drained it is definitely time to figure out how you got there. I read the staying board too. I don't post there but I sense the most common mistake I see is the nons overlooking their own needs and boundaries. If the people on the staying board do follow their best interests the relationship might end. This should be accepted by the non. We set the conditions in our life to have our needs met and to pursue our own happiness. This should be done fearlessly. When our happiness depends on someone suffering from a personality disorder we are in a very dangerous place.  If our partners can't accept our own pursuit of happiness then we should be strong enough to let them go and grieve the loss of the relationship.

Shari's articles have saved my life!

I literally could not breathe when I went searching for ANSWERS for a breakup that I couldn't explain to others... .made me feel suicidal.

I found Shari's writing comforting in the beginning myself. After getting dumped on for so long I was still having problems wondering what was mine and what wasn't. What I could have done differently (mainly so the relationship would have worked). I was momentarily relieved of that burden and could just focus on getting my mind free from the attachment. When the anger finally left I came to find that the questions still remained. Mainly "What could I have done differently" (only this time wondering why I didn't get out sooner)? The answer I found had nothing to do with my BPD partner. It had everything to do with me. I was distracted by all the drama and lost sight of myself and doing what was right for me. It seems so obvious now it is almost kind of ridiculous. I know I won't let this happen again. I also understand better my need for the intense validation. I won't find it so attractive next time.

I think the worst part of Shari's writing is that it gives too much focus on the BPD aspect of the relationship and not enough introspection for the non. We really get caught up analyzing every aspect of our BPD partners. We obsess about their role in the relationship endlessly. Many on leaving never put themselves under the same intense scrutiny they do their BPD partners. If there is any good to come out of our BPD relationships... .this is the place we need to look. We can look to the future with confidence and hope when we see what our own vulnerabilities were at the start of the relationship (What did we need from them?) and what made us hold on when our own needs weren't being met?
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2011, 10:21:08 PM »

Excerpt
The answer I found had nothing to do with my BPD partner. It had everything to do with me. I was distracted by all the drama and lost sight of myself and doing what was right for me. It seems so obvious now it is almost kind of ridiculous. I know I won't let this happen again. I also understand better my need for the intense validation. I won't find it so attractive next time.

This is the core of the issue. I too, lost sight of me and doing what was right for me. When I read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells, I asserted my needs with the exNPD/pdbf in order to-

Excerpt
o follow their best interests the relationship might end. This should be accepted by the non. We set the conditions in our life to have our needs met and to pursue our own happiness. This should be done fearlessly. When our happiness depends on someone suffering from a personality disorder we are in a very dangerous place.  If our partners can't accept our own pursuit of happiness then we should be strong enough to let them go and grieve the loss of the relationship

I was even working up to acceptance that my request to have my needs me might end the r/s. What I did not account for was the horrid verbal and emotional abuse. And what I further did not realize is how that abuse would reopen some core childhood wounds and self doubt.   Oh my, so much to learn about myself.   He wasn't the only one with problems. Smiling (click to insert in post)

My exH was the violent abuser and the bf was controlling. The issue however was when the raging and devaluation began, I sincerely was at a loss as to what I was experiencing, it was swift-within a few weeks and devastating to me. The final lesson I needed to learn is no matter what anyone says to devalue me-if my esteem is intact then the words are easy to walk away from and they do not take up residency in my head.

I agree with you that information addressing the non's emotional experience is relevant and necessary for healing. Hopefully-

Excerpt
When you have put yourself in a position that you are tired and drained it is definitely time to figure out how you got there



the lesson is to not get to the point of being tired and drained in a r/s. This is the lesson worth learning.

C
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2011, 11:05:43 PM »

I think the worst part of Shari's writing is that it gives too much focus on the BPD aspect of the relationship and not enough introspection for the non.

May I suggest ":)o You Love to be Needed or Need to be Loved"?

This is a thoughtful, albeit at times berating, thread. I think it must be said that it is vital for those seeking therapy to carefully select a therapist -- or lifecoach, guide or whatever "degree-qualified" or lack thereof you desire, as long as you head into such a relationship openly, honestly and with mutual respect (along the lines stated in the book "Eyes Wide Open: Practicing Discernment Along the Spiritual Path" -- who resonates with an individual, can probe gently yet insightfully into exploring the inner core aspects of ones own psyche to explore and gradually bring to the surface some of the very issues that may make one so vulnerable to those who possess a range of BPD/NPD traits.  The defense mechanisms preventing acknowledgement of some of those issues, if one feels they do indeed exist or is comfortable to explore them runs deep within the souls psyche and it takes a skilled and gifted therapist to be able to gain the trust of an individual entering into such a process to be able to sift through such emotional landmines.  If there is suspicion or doubt of the person's capability or credentials one feels is necessary to do such work, then this person is not the one to engage. However, for those who may be willing to explore some of these darker matters and do have the faith that they're working with a person they feel confident to guide them down that path, the success is in the freedom, clarity, happiness, self-confidence and independence, to name but a few rewards to be gained from such a process.
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« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2011, 11:52:32 PM »

I have read Shari's writing. As I stated, I found some it useful to me when breaking free of my attachment. I know where her focus is. You stated it very clearly before. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Everybody posting in this thread has read her site. I was getting good feedback from this site while I was reading Shari's. If I was only reading Shari's i can see how I could get stuck in the victim role. Blameless. No need to think about my issues. I don't know if any of the other staff here has implied that Shari is ill intentioned. I see no evidence of that. We do see many posters here. I have read thousands of threads. The biggest problem on all of them... .staying, leaving, and undecided is a lack of self awareness. So focused on the BPD. The one party of the relationship they have no control over. This is what bpdfamily is trying to push here. Self reflection. Self awareness. Emotional growth so us nons can look to future relationships with confidence rather than fear. It shouldn't be necessary to view our exBPDs as the antichrist to detach and move on.

Shari Schreiber has an excellent article on her site entitled "If Looks Could Kill: Anatomy of a Borderline".  Here are a few passages:

"In the midst of mending from these intoxicating but dangerous relationships, dozens of men have described a terrifying "demonic" influence that appears to inhabit their beloved when she's confronted with her lying, manipulations and betrayals--or some sort of (minor) infraction on their part, has catalyzed the most horrifying change in her facial expression. Many have reported; "it's like sparks flew out of her eyes," or "there's such a cold and hideous mask" that showed up, they couldn't recognize the woman they've loved so deeply. If looks could kill, they believe they'd be dead after one of these episodes!

A female client recently expressed that her (male) borderline friend "looked like the Devil himself," during vitriolic rages where his terrible verbal abuses were spat at her, like molten lava spewing from a (suddenly) active volcano. Other times, she says his demeanor was very peaceful and "cherubic"--a man you'd never suspect, was capable of such volatility. But how does this facet of "pure evil" manifest in somebody we've felt so close and loving with, just minutes or hours earlier? Would they recognize themselves, if we held up a mirror when this vile darkness appears? Might they see the distorted face of their rageful/punitive parent, instead of their own? Could it be that's what you see in them?"

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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 12:48:20 PM »

I agree with the several folks who've said we all need a balanced approach and that's true for any difficult issue. Schreiber gives us another perspective. I've read most of Schreiber's site relating to BPD and while I agree she uses much harsher and more blunt words to describe pwBPD, those words are sometimes clearer than the sometimes too politically correct ways we all choose at times. I almost feel like in trying to be polite to pwBPD and their disease (even in this forum where it's just us nons), that we continue to needlessly apologize for ourselves just like we did directly to the pwBPD in our lives over and over. Schreiber doesn't mince words.

I for one have been helped by reading her descriptions of BPD behavior and being able to say "that's exactly what happened to me." And I'm not a man, nor was I in a romantic relationship with my pwBPD, so she can appeal to anyone. Like her words or hate em, she has a knack for cutting to the core of the behaviors.. I'm not saying she always hits the mark on treatment, healing, moving on, etc, but I do think she calls the behaviors in a very truthful and understandable way.
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 02:43:25 PM »

The pain of abandonment after a longish push and pull can be incredible when being left. The confusion when leaving someone who is so so demanding and raging that you can't recognize yourself anymore and in order to save yourself you flee is very disturbing. These are extreme experiences. Somehow I understand people describing a pwBPD as a vampire. I use the physicist equivalent - a black hole all the time.

B&W thinking is very validating when we are upset. It connects to the wounded soul. But then what is the path forward? Staying on the agitated level or de-escalating? Why does it matter when rage is feeling so good? Our emotional system after a breakup with a pwBPD is disturbed. Extreme emotions, particularly fear activate the attachment system. Staying on a heighten emotional arousal level is neither helping to get away nor helping to be able to select the next partner more carefully. ? Calming down is a process which takes time. It can be aided by acquiring knowledge, self understanding and some skills.

The question when faced with a sales story is not - does it connect? - but - where does it lead me?
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 04:02:56 PM »

 Great discussion and gives us food for thought, no doubt.

I am coming at this froma  fairly unique place. Many of you dont know me, as I post in Staying, so in a nutshell ( no pun intended), here it is.

I am married to a man who was diagnosed with BPD and no other mental illnesses or addictions involved. He always worked, is creative, fascinating guy who is a professional and has a super high IQ. Nice on the eyes, too!

Anyway, his BPD symptoms included serious, scary rages, dissociation, including other personas, suicide thinking and several attempts, days crying in bed which follwed the rages, defensive, angry, hostile oppositional, etc. Classic male BPD.

Eventually, he got into DBT and stayed put. It was an up and down recovery,which we are learning is about typical. He did all of the right things, yet he and I were still broken. Eventually, he left me one day when I was out of town, saying that he hoped this would give me an opportunity to take a look at myself. I was just happy he was gone.

  Eventually, I found this board and I saw our ugly dynamics and I was able to recognize my piece in all of this mess. I saw my own rationalization, my need to be exhonerated at all costs, my need for control, my need for a mentally ill person in my life to mask my own depression and codependancy ( I was a professional in the mental health field,. btw)

At that point, I found comfort in knowing we werent the only ones living in chaos and I saw what he had been raging to me about ( not exactly an effective way to communicate) for all of those years. I went into therapy and eventually, we came to a place where we had a therapeutic separation ( guided by a MC, while he remained in DBT, and I in therapy and we lived apart, working on what was broken individually, and in MC as a couple) It lasted about 8 months this way, and we reconciled about 3 years ago.  No more symptoms of BPD at our house, not one... .and our marriage is happy and healthy. It took 3 years of DBT, a year of MC and a year of T for me.

  All of this is to say that it isnt only our disordered partner, or ex. It is us, as well. Honestly, most people at the first sign of much of the stuff we saw... .and ignored... .would never have taken the relationship further... This is healthy! We, instead, run into the burning building, gasoline in our arms and a smile on our face. This is where most of us are broken!

  We can heal. People with BPD can heal. Our relationships can also heal, but from what Ive seen, it takes work, willingness, gut wrenching honesty and alot of time, patience, tears and grace.

  Without our disordered spouse, many times, we are then left with our own stuff... our codependancy, anger issues, self esteem issues, etc... and even with them gone, our lives need rebuilding and care and help. Blaming the ex only keeps us stuck and very, very vulnerable for choosing another person in our lives who likely will have 'issues' as well.

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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2011, 05:31:25 PM »

I think the posts by steph brings up some important differences in the folks on this discussion board. All of us have loved, supported and been a significant part of the life of a pwBPD. BUT... .not all of us have the same issues, problems, behaviors or things we need to own and work on.

I was the FRIEND of a BPD. I love her dearly (still do, always will, she's family even if I never see her again the rest of my life) and I wanted to help her because I wanted to make a difference in her life and I LOVE solving problems. So that's part of my thing. But at the end of a visit with my pwBPD, I went home to a peaceful, loving relationship of 17 years. I have wonderful friends, a good job, a nice family, etc. Yes, I let myself get involved with a pwBPD so I must have been filling some need or hole in my life, but my reasons (or "issues" are very different than that of a spouse, child, mother, co-worker, therapist or whoever.

Therefore, when we read info such as Ms. Schreiber's, we all have to get out of it what helps based on our own situation. I felt like Schreiber was describing much of my experience and that provided some comfort.

Is it rude to want to read harsh comments about someone afflicted with BPD? I don't know, maybe.

Now that I need to move on and get over the lost friendship, I need to stop thinking about my pwBPD's behaviors (which I had no part in, they were all there before me and will be long after me) and find my own closure. But I think reading about BPD behaviors that matched my experience was a reasonable first step to saying, "ok, this happened, it sucks, it's sad but now I go to the next step in my closure process."

This discussion board has helped me and the people here are wonderful. But we all have different stories, different things to work on, or possibly even just the need to learn about BPD so we understand what happened.

Knowledge of any sort, is power. Every question is an act of freedom.
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2011, 06:24:27 PM »

steph,

that's a great story. congratulations.
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2011, 07:40:34 PM »

People can come to a place of having empathy for their abuser, but not while they are getting abused.  I don't believe the empathy is for condoning their behavior while they are exhibiting the behavior. The empathy is for when you detach and try to understand your part in it. 

I think Schreiber's articles are to be read during abusive situations.  It describes what the non is going through at the time they are going through it.

I think she is an important part of the process for many people.  I read the relationship article but instead of using a romantic BPD, thinking about the points and how they relate to my sister.  It really helped me understand how pwBPD are stereotypically, that I am abused verbally by my sister and how it explained several romantic relationships she had that didn't make any sense to me at the time.

BW
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2011, 12:07:34 PM »

As several posters have said, balance and staying "real" is very important to healing.  

Is "painting someone black" a healthy coping mechanism?   Some have pointed out that painting a ex-partner black was a necessary part of their healing process. This is not new at bpdfamily.com by any means.

But how do we view "painting black" when a BPD partner does it. We have over 20,000 posts on this message board exploring "splitting" (painting black)  by pwBPD.  Here is what we as a community said about it just a few days ago.

I had heard it put that it is easier to project their pain on to you than deal with the underling cause. The child like fear mechanism.



... .he says that he doesn't act that way with anyone else, so it must be my fault, or because of ME.  so he kinda owns it but doesn't. i just know he can't handle the feelings... .

Pwpbd have maladaptive coping skills specifically related to feelings of abandonment/engulfment.  This also could include reworking the facts to match their feelings in seeing us as their persecutor - yes.

If these statements are true for a pwBPD, are they not true for us too?  Sure, one can justify it and say it works - but, then again, so can a person with BPD - afterall, that's exactly why anyone does it.

"if we are doing it what is the next step for us?  should we be mindful and try to get more balanced?  do we want to encourage extremism in others - and have them encourage us?  "

Relationship issues are about two people, no matter how dysfunctional one person is.  End the relationship and you end the relationship issues.

And for the most part, our partners were not "demonic monsters spewing molten lava" at us as the article says - if they were we would have been gone fast.  Instead,  they were dichotomous - a contrast between two things - attractive/deeply connected  - and selfish/hurtful - often in ways so subtle that outsiders could not even see it.

In many cases the damage to us came not only from the actions of our partner* but from our inability to see reality for what it really was - to see and understand this personality dichotomy - this disorder. Many of us were obsessed with trying to make "a blind horse, see" and suffered significantly from this obsession.

We all need to be mindful not to substitute one obsession for another - casting our ex to be something worse than they were.  We need to do this balance for our own wellbeing (not for anybody else).  Obsessive behavior has hurt us and it will continue to hurt us if we don't recognize it.

Avoiding extremism does not need to not take away from our grieving (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance) - or our need to focus and remind ourselves of the negative side of the relationship so that we can detach from the positive side.

The reality of these failed relationships, particularly the "not so grand" problems, are enough for us to let go. Learning to understand how damaging and insidious these soft problems can be is more challenging - but it should help us in future relationships.

Skippy

* Not including issues of physical abuse, infidelity, or crimes
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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2014, 02:00:43 PM »

As several posters have said, balance and staying "real" is very important to healing.  

Is "painting someone black" a healthy coping mechanism?   Some have pointed out that painting a ex-partner black was a necessary part of their healing process. This is not new at bpdfamily.com by any means.

But how do we view "painting black" when a BPD partner does it. We have over 20,000 posts on this message board exploring "splitting" (painting black)  by pwBPD.  Here is what we as a community said about it just a few days ago.

I had heard it put that it is easier to project their pain on to you than deal with the underling cause. The child like fear mechanism.



... . he says that he doesn't act that way with anyone else, so it must be my fault, or because of ME.  so he kinda owns it but doesn't. i just know he can't handle the feelings... .

Pwpbd have maladaptive coping skills specifically related to feelings of abandonment/engulfment.  This also could include reworking the facts to match their feelings in seeing us as their persecutor - yes.

If these statements are true for a pwBPD, are they not true for us too?  Sure, one can justify it and say it works - but, then again, so can a person with BPD - afterall, that's exactly why anyone does it.

"if we are doing it what is the next step for us?  should we be mindful and try to get more balanced?  do we want to encourage extremism in others - and have them encourage us?  "

Relationship issues are about two people, no matter how dysfunctional one person is.  End the relationship and you end the relationship issues.

And for the most part, our partners were not "demonic monsters spewing molten lava" at us as the article says - if they were we would have been gone fast.  Instead,  they were dichotomous - a contrast between two things - attractive/deeply connected  - and selfish/hurtful - often in ways so subtle that outsiders could not even see it.

In many cases the damage to us came not only from the actions of our partner* but from our inability to see reality for what it really was - to see and understand this personality dichotomy - this disorder. Many of us were obsessed with trying to make "a blind horse, see" and suffered significantly from this obsession.

We all need to be mindful not to substitute one obsession for another - casting our ex to be something worse than they were.  We need to do this balance for our own wellbeing (not for anybody else).  Obsessive behavior has hurt us and it will continue to hurt us if we don't recognize it.

Avoiding extremism does not need to not take away from our grieving (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance) - or our need to focus and remind ourselves of the negative side of the relationship so that we can detach from the positive side.

The reality of these failed relationships, particularly the "not so grand" problems, are enough for us to let go. Learning to understand how damaging and insidious these soft problems can be is more challenging - but it should help us in future relationships.

Skippy

* Not including issues of physical abuse, infidelity, or crimes

So spot on, Skip, eloquent and balanced and compassionate. It does feel so good to blame the other person entirely, to be beyond reproach... but it would (and has) only hurt me to take no responsibility for my part in allowing myself to be mistreated (staying). I still have so much work to do on myself, but I couldn't see it before because all I was looking at was what was wrong with my ex and how he'd hurt me... how he manipulated me, lied to me, said hurtful things to make me feel ugly and defective and like nobody else but him would want me... I felt like if I put up with his bad behavior he wouldn't leave me, because he'd never find anyone else who would... When he did find someone else who would, all I wanted to focus on was how evil he was, conniving, a user, making sure his own needs were covered at the expense of everyone else. Focusing on this did not allow me to see that what I had actually been a victim of was my own codependency issues. Why did I want to be in a one sided relationship? Why did I want to settle for a relationship where I did all the heavy lifting and put up with so much abuse? Why didn't I want a relationship with equal contribution, respect etc.? I told myself I was staying for love, but that wasn't true, and even then part of me knew it but refused to look at it or deal with it, because even then I was only focused on him, what he was doing, how good I was. He made me feel like I was a good person to put up with him, the long suffering girlfriend. My contribution to my own unhappiness escaped me, and would continue to, if other things in my life hadn't brought me to therapy. It frightens me upon reflection because it felt so good and was so easy to demonize him, but it was never about him, the relationship with my BPDex was a symptom of something bigger going on with me, and if other things in my life hadn't taken me to therapy i feel that I would have simply ended up in another unhappy and one sided relationship, perhaps not with someone with BPD, but unhappy and one sided is still unhappy and one sided, even if it is less tumultuous.
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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2014, 09:41:45 AM »

Excerpt
I personally believe that when pwBPD "leave" us, they can put us through a kind of abandonment trauma.  After all, what is abandonment?  It is when someone you trust deeply betrays yours trust and severs their contact with you.  I think that often the way we are "left" we feel as though we were abandoned.  And so our reactions to this abandonment is not dissimilar to how pwBPD reaction when they experience their fear of abandonment.  Why else do you suppose so many of us nons feel and wonder if we are not the ones who are (also) suffering from BPD?

 I've never thought about it from that perspective.   Idea  This is a feeling I can relate to, empathize with.

This is a fantastic thread - I am commenting, in part, to put it back at the top of the list of threads!  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I think it's that good.

In regard to the original topic:  I found Schreiber's articles very helpful in the very immediate aftermath of the end of my relationship with my exBPDgf.  I had stayed silent through four years of emotional abuse, telling absolutely no one about the lying, the repeated infidelities, or the terrible blows to my self esteem. Schreiber's articles, although clearly biased, provided me with the validation I needed at that point in time - and helped fuel a much needed indignation and anger at my exBPDgf.  For reasons I am still trying to understand, I had such an unhealthy amount of empathy and sympathy for my ex that I somehow failed to immediately recognize how close the relationship came to destroying me. Her articles helped me name many things that I couldn't put into words, and helped me begin to shift the focus to my own recovery and healing (instead of my on my exBPDgf's).  I will always be grateful for that.  However, I agree with other posts here - that while anger is a very normal and necessary part of the grieving process, there comes a point that we must move forward from it.  

I am 4 months out from the b/u, and Schreiber's articles no longer resonate with me the same way that they once did.

As for the issue of abandonment that I quoted in my post:  this is what I have come to believe, although I have no idea if I am right about this. I think pwBPD recreate the abandonment in other people that they have experienced in their own lives in an attempt to excise their own pain. I now feel as though I have experienced the deep pain and terror of abandonment that my exBPDgf has lived with her entire life.
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« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2015, 06:48:27 PM »

It is my uneducated opinion, but after having read much of her articles on her web page that she is just as dangerous as any Cluster B.  I think she might even be one herself.  To tell a victim of NPD that their Narcissist didn't make them feel like they were going crazy.  If they felt like they, the victim,  are going crazy, they, the victim,  MUST be BPD.   Is.  She.  SERIOUS?   
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« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2015, 06:59:31 AM »

I was thinking like most of you here that the article is too harsh on BP, but after I saw my BP ex smiling when describing how she was punching me with fists in the face, my opinion changed. They like the idea of you suffering, because they think that you have hurt them. They are sicker than you think. They want to hurt to, they don't wish you the best, they paint you black and when they have an opportunity they want to destroy you.

So don't feel sad about them, because like Schreiber says it is very easy to say like BP do - " I am broken, get over it

"I will not look for help, that is me". Someone who deep down knows that is sick, and does not want to change, but hurt people in order to survive - is not a good person and there should be no empathy or sympathy for them.
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« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2015, 03:54:12 PM »

I actually spoke to this woman... .her articles seem to have SOME validity so I decided to call her... .it was incredible: she was incredibly impatient, rude is probably the better term... .she made various assumptions about my case and (for lack of a better word) enforced those assumptions even when I attempted to tell her that what she was insisting did not apply to me... .in fact, it made her highly irritated that I simply didn't accept her assumptions as fact... .she eventually and suddenly turned the tables on me and began to insist that I was the person with problems that I needed to have resolved and then abruptly hung up on me.

Not impressed with her at all and would agree with the other poster about her being dangerous.
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« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2017, 10:47:51 PM »

I've read articles Shari Schreiber's site - and I just found it a little wonky and unprofessional. I didn't know she was this crazy. I'm pretty creeped out by that video, to say the least.
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