Don't understand - objects?

[PinkieD]

I am struggling to understand something.  ExBPDbf doesn't really see me as a person, rather as an object?  This is confusing me.

If so, does he see everyone else as objects, or only love interests?


thanks in advance

[diotima]

Is there a source for the word "object"? People are functions for a BPD. That is, they are there to meet whatever needs the BPD feels he/she has. So people are objects in that sense. BPDs have shallow emotions but lots of needs. They are so overwhelmed by their needs that they don't see the other person as a person who has needs, feelings, desires, and so on. To not see or respect the other person is to treat the other person as an object. Food and drugs are objects in that sense too.

I think that is what you are getting at?

Diotima

[PinkieD]

I suppose so, sorry to be so vague.  I have seen several analogies likening love interests to toys (new shiny toy, toaster, etc.) and also have read that nons are objectified by BPD.  Assuming this means they don't place us in the same categories as themselves.  Like say, maybe they don't think we have real human emotions and feelings?

I guess I can't wrap my head around the idea that he was on a whole different playing field than I was.  If that even makes sense.

[FindingMe2011]

Pink,

 Them being on a different playing field, is correct. This is part of the mindf**k. In my case I was with BPD, for 13yrs. I always new there was something off with her, but was determined to see things through. To learn of the dynamics and ins and outs of BPD, FLOORED ME. the ability to mask such a severe disorder, was beyond my comprehension. Looking back now there were soo many events, mostly insignificant, that proves this. They have been so damaged, they cant fell empathy. Think about that. With no empathy comes no compassion. With no compassion comes no respect. With all this comes no true meaning of LOVE. Only what they see other do, and mimmick this. Just like an actor. I would like to see what the percentage of good actors, are BPD.

[PinkieD]

I think your explanation helped me.  Does this apply to animals, also?  ExBPDbf had to put his dog to sleep and almost lost his mind with sadness.  But now that I'm thinking of it, it was kind of about HIM, not the dog.  How much he missed the dog, how bad he felt to "have to look in its eyes and tell the doctor to kill it", and so on.  What a hardship it all was on him.  Not oh poor dog he had heartworms and was suffering.

[diotima]

Pink: yes, it was about him, not the dog.

My ex seems really empathetic with one of his daughters (not the other, he splits them) but it is really because he is totally enmeshed with her and feels he identifies with her and can control her. It is all about him. She is an object. He'll use his daughter if it suits him.

Diotima

[harlemgurl]

Hey Pink Daisy.

A person with BPD is a physically grown adult carrying around an emotionally stunted child on the inside. Because of core trauma emotionally they've stopped growing around the age of three. At three years old all you know how to do is survive. Intellectually they are all there; its emotionally where they are wacked out. This is their struggle and this is their battle.

The emotions are this incredible gift that we have that allows us to see and experience life in shades of grey as we grow, mature and experience life. People with BPD lack the emotional skills and tools that us NONS take for granted: reciprocity, maturity, give and take, integrity, giving without expectation, compassion, empathy, sympathy, emotional gravity... .these are shades of grey that people with BPD cannot comprehend because they've been emotionally damaged. This is why their relationships are full of conflict.

A three year old child can understand its OWN needs... .but a three year old child cannot comprehend nor reciprocate the needs of an adult. A three year old child can love you but that love is based on how much they NEED you. This is why us NONS end up feeling like objects: because our needs cannot be reciprocated. A three year old cannot see in shades of grey. Its when us NONS try to get a person with BPD to reciprocate our needs is when all hell breaks loose.

The hell they inflict is the equivalent of a three year old tantrum! Its frustration, anger, and turmoil from the inability to connect with others in an adult way.

A person with BPD can intellectually see you on a descriptive level: height, weight, eye color, style of dress; but they can't feel you emotionally cause their inner three year old only has emotional room for themselves.

I hope this helps.

HG

[mistyclouds]

Pinkdaisy7, hope this helps:

www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/06/lack-of-object.html

[2010]

All humans... .Every single person in life begins with objectifying the other because it is the basis for bonding. Objectification is learned from "mother love." In development, we (hopefully) become adults that grow beyond our objectification to our primary object (mother) and learn that what is thought of as good can also frustrate us and be bad without losing our loving attachment.  This requires us to be OK with the object having a mind of its own and also allowing us to become separate and apart from it without hurting the bond.

If Mother allows us this experience to individuate out into the World with free will and we can return to her without a crisis- we become calm and rational and realize that everyone else is an individual, everyone else has free will and everyone else is distinct and separate from us and *we're OK about it.*  Personality disorders like the cluster B segment have arrested development at the primary object developmental stage.  Mother was either a helicopter Mother, clinging, neglectful, raging, alcoholic, or just plain checked out emotionally... .all of these things create disruptions in development.

Consequently the child growns up and not having learned to separate/individuate, takes on the same dynamics as the early processes of the parental bond. Adults either allow themselves to become subsumed by others and kept as slaves (Borderline) or subsume others as grandiose extensions of themselves (Narcissists.) The disruption of development during this childhood time fuels object relations theory and attachment theory.

If you are using the shiny new toy analogy, you are probably dealing with a narcissist who has subsumed you so that you either revolve around him or represent him. If you try to control that arrested development (stay with the narcissist and work on becoming a separate human being) the Narcissist will punish you. If you continue to return to the Narcissist in order to control him, you risk the possibility of being abused and persecuted. (Coincidentally this is exactly why Borderlines and Narcissists are so attractive to each other.)  

Many dependent personalities as well as vulnerable narcissists also fall into the behavior of thinking that they can control the outcome of any relationship with a person with arrested development by "helping" them.  The less this works, the more the narcissistic partner feels lower and lower self esteem which fuels the desire to be a better person *next time.*  The disorder here is all in the desire to control the uncontrollable. It is also a part of object relations theory where the "object" becomes subsumed and ironically, the narsassist allows their self to be "subsumed" by the errant object. In this case, it is about control, not love.

After detaching from any insecure (false) attachment, the desired object may become what Dorothy Tennov describes as a "limerant object." Limerance is what many people on the board suffer from when they reside in the grey area between hope and uncertainty that their "limerant object" will return and profess love. The hope is that the feelings extended toward the object will be reciprocated, the uncertainty is that they may not. This is much of the reasoning for breaking no contact in order to test the limerance and the uncertainty and measure it with hope.  Limerance may remain for months and continue for decades unless it is confronted and resolved from an internal (not external) analysis.

For more info: www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory

Hope this helps.  

[PinkieD]

A person with BPD can intellectually see you on a descriptive level: height, weight, eye color, style of dress; but they can't feel you emotionally cause their inner three year old only has emotional room for themselves.

I hope this helps.

HG

That does help.  I am blown away by this last paragraph.  How on earth does he go through life like that?

[Ace]

Maybe some bad actors as well.  

Their needs come before anything else.  They view their needs as needs for surviving or living.  Since survival is involved, they will do just about anything to get them met.  We would too, but our definition of survival probably relates around food/water/shelter.      

Most actors have some form of serious dysfunction which is what causes them to have that look at me attitude.  

I know Jennifer Love Hewitt is probable BPD based on two famous relationships one discussed on the Howard Stern Show with Rich Cronin and the other sung by John Mayer called Daughters which was written for her.    

[PinkieD]

If you are using the shiny new toy analogy, you are probably dealing with a narcissist who has subsumed you so that you either revolve around him or represent him.

Wow, that's so much to take in!  He is actually BPD with some narcissistic traits.  

thank you so much

[PinkieD]

Maybe some bad actors as well.  

Their needs come before anything else.  They view their needs as needs for surviving or living.  Since survival is involved, they will do just about anything to get them met.  We would too, but our definition of survival probably relates around food/water/shelter.      

 

, yes indeed

Their needs for a romantic attachment are on par for them with the neccessities of food/water/shelter?    Would this help explain men who are on the hunt for new women while still in the relationship?  They cannot be without a romantic interest?

[PinkieD]

Pinkdaisy7, hope this helps:

www.borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/06/lack-of-object.html

Thanks, Misty, going to check it out now

[Ace]

Yes, men... .and women. 

My wife cheated on me. 

[PinkieD]

Yes, men... .and women. 

My wife cheated on me. 

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply anything about the sexes, just talking about my exBPDbf really. 

I'm sorry, you didn't deserve that treatment! 

[Willy]

they can't feel you emotionally cause their inner three year old only has emotional room for themselves.

In my experience they can feel you emotionally like no other (perhaps indeed like a 3 year old who solely bases judgement on facial expressions and body language, something adults might have lost). They only use it for fulfilling their need.

[diotima]

Yes, on the three-year-old. If you haven't been  around one lately, it is eye-opening. I spent a weekend camping with relatives and they have a 3-year-old. He is full of exuberance and energy and his eyes light up when he is having fun. When his mood shifts, he becomes clingy and demanding and pouty. He wants his momma then. He is a normal three-year-old and he is acts based on his impulses and felt needs and desires. He is not aware of all the energy other people put out to make sure he is cared for and safe. He will develop empathy later.

Diotima

[Ace]

Don't worry about it.  The abuse helps solidify my resolve.

I just wanted to make sure that we aren't sex bashing.    

But the answer to your question is yes.  Since the relationship is in constant turmoil, which in their mind HAS to be YOUR fault, they are feeling like the victim and opening themselves up for others to come in.  

Now, lets turn the tables a little.  Are we not feeling the same thing... .even just a little.  The difference is we have a right to be angry at them, as their behavior is on them.  They don't see it that way.  Remember, it is our fault.    I will say this, being honest with myself, I am probably far more likely to cheat on my abusive wife than if she was nice to me, but still less likely than her cheating on me for doing nothing but trying to love and be nice to her.      

[mistyclouds]

Wow Willy... .so explains why my uxBPDgf terminated the relationship based on her mispercieving a look on my face! So that's why she reads faces. 

[diotima]

Here is a link to an "eye reading" test. Apparently BPDs score higher on this than so-called normal people. They are always on the look out for bad stuff coming down the pike. Autistic people score lower. However, I have some very discerning and empathetic friends who are definitely not BPD who score very high on the test.

www.questionwritertracker.com/quiz/61/Z4MK3TKB.html

Diotima

[Ace]

How about that, I got a 26 and the average is 26.2.  At first I thought there might be something wrong with me because I figured I was doing better than average.   

[diotima]

I had a lot of trouble getting back on line--site was down or something.

Anyway, I got 26 I think when I took the test awhile back. It was during split up with BPD and my mother's death. I have no idea whether that is why I missed most of the positive eyes. Dunno. Did you check to see if there was a particular category of expressions you missed? I don't know about all these tests, given that the pix were not always clear. BPDs are supposed to be "good" at this! Not much else emotionally as far as I can see. But sometimes I am not so good either!

Diotima

[cyndiloowho]

Had to chime in on this topic, as this "object" theory was unheard of to me until my UBPDh became addicted to internet porn. But as that issue has settled to the back of my mind, the 'objectification' (now that I have become more comfortable with the term) is apparent in all aspects of our lives!

In a conversation with my H not too long ago, he was trying to 'impress' me with his opinions. When I stated, "thats your perspective, not mine", he got very irritated... .as I continued to not sway to his desires, he shouted "why cant you just be happy!"  ?  It was so out of context I had to realize, in my shocked and stunned state, that he was in his own little world, (like the 3 year old described here). I said to him "you dont even see me as a human being do you?" and he got mad and said "what the fk is that, big shot college crap?" and then he stormed off to his room!

When I met my H, I had a 2 year old son (who is now 31). From day one my H disliked my son. A sweet, happy, loving, 2 year old baby? My H's problem with my son was that he "was needy and weak." My son left home at 18 and joined the military (gee, wonder why). He has a very honorable service record, including that his battalion, the 10th Mountain Division, was the first to arrive in Afghanistan after 9/11. My H's argument against my son has proven, all along, to be unfounded, so my Hs way of dealing with his 'wrongness' is to ignore and avoid my son. Pretty childish, if you ask me.

Last Saturday night, my H was crying in my room over how much he misses our deceased (younger) son. I think he was just lonely and was looking for a 'hook' to get my attention. Because, yesterday was this son's birthday... a difficult day for us as loved ones. And it was shared with my H that many of our son's friends were blowing up FB with pics and memories. It was actually quite awesome and heartwarming. But, my H was not interested in FB at all. He signed onto the computer to look at work stuff, and then signed off and went to bed. He might have been interested in the FB stories if they were more about "poor Dad"... ."how do you deal with your suffering" "how about you dad"... .But it wasnt about my H, so he had no interest. Our son is only an object of attention for my H, when it suits him!

I could go on and on... .I have 29 years of this kind of behavior. I wish I had SEEN sooner!

 

[Clearmind]

I hear you Cyn. My ex told me a few times that he was having in-depth chats to his younger brother about the downside of porn in that it leads to unsatisfying sex because of objectification - fantasy world. Mind you the BPDex had told me of his concerns of being a sex addict. Now I can put two and two together... .he is helping his brother because he has been there. He told me he sought counseling years ago for this. In the breakup chat he also told me that there is something he has never told me or anyone. He seems to be very aware of all his odd behaviour - my guess is he knows he has BPD. I certainly know... .

[mistyclouds]

I got 33 out of 36... .but it could have been 35 out of 36 if I had gone with my first instinct on two questions.  Now what does that say about me ?  I am hypervigilant... .so I wonder if that explains it.

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I think the following will give you the answers you are looking for.

BPD Behaviors: Objectifying the Non-partner

MJJ

[MindfulJavaJoe]

36/36

I am sure that says something about me 

 

[diotima]

misty and java: the test says that you are good at reading people. Just because a BPD tends to score high on this doesn't mean you are BPD. Not reading for the same purpose IMHO. I think it means you are very good at seeing what people are expressing though through their eyes.

Diotima

[MindfulJavaJoe]

I suspect that I am good at reading my uBPDw emotions.

21 years is a long time.