Thoughts & Input please

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hey all,

So over the last few months my uBPDxgf has been giving me hints and clues as to wanting to get back together... .things she'd say and do etc.  I have to admit, it got me thinking about things between us again and about 3 weeks ago we had a conversation about us.  During that conversation I said that I still loved her (I think a part of us always will - normal people do that) and that I didn't necessarily believe that things were over between her and I.  Call it confusion, call it regression, call it whatever you want - I said it, I own it.  She had said she didn't feel that way and I said I didn't believe her because of what she had been saying or doing for the past few months prior to that talk.  We talked a bit about the past and I explained to her how all her lying, alchohol and drug use and other things had hurt me and that's why I had walked away.  The conversation ended with me saying that I wasn't suggesting we get back together or anything, just that we remain friends (part of me knew that no matter what I was feeling at the time, I could never get back into that mess with her)  Anyway, we don't hang out much or even talk for that matter, but I do still have a relationship with her youngest son... .we hang out weekly because he doesn't have a father figure around and I care about the kid.

So here's where it gets interesting... .I haven't talked to or seen her in honestly 2 weeks and we had decided that we were going to have lunch this week.  NO big deal, harmless in my opinion.  So I get a text saying she is cancelling and I said ok why? I get a response that she'll send me an email because it's too long to text.  So here's her email:

Hey, so again, yes you are correct that I am uncomfortable spending time with you since our last talk.  What makes me most uncomfortable is that I didn't feel like you were hearing or accepting what I was saying; I understand that you do not feel that you and I are over but I need you to understand that I do not feel the same.

I do enjoy being your friend; but knowing that there may be a tension with our difference in feelings, I feel I should back off so I don't further interrupt your relationship with S13 as this is most important in my opinion!  I don't harbor any bad feelings for you and do not want this to be akward to anyone involved, I just don't think that spending time together at this point is something that we should do.

I will always care about you and treat you with respect, and I trust that your relationship with S13 has not been continued due to a hope of us reconnecting, but because you and he truly enjoy eachother's company  

I honestly had to laugh!  So here was my response:

I heard and understood what you were saying that night Hades (borrowed from another board user)   You love me, but don't feel that us being together is what you want or need.    It is over in your mind and heart.  I also know that most of that is your fear of getting close again and me walking away.  I'm going to call you on your BS though - for you to imply that you don't love me or have feelings for me 'in that way' is ludicrous.  Your actions and words over the past couple of months have suggested otherwise.  The reasons I started thinking about 'us' differently again was because of the things you said and did over those couple of months.  Just because I said I didn't believe certain things that night, didn't mean in anyway that I didn't understand your feelings or what you were saying.   I'm not arguing your feelings and I'm not pressing for anything more than friendship.  If that means you don't want to hang out, then I'm ok with that   I don't think there is any tension between us... .especially with a difference in feelings - that is something that you are perceiving and hasn't come from me.

When I said that I loved you still and that I didn't believe you and I were over - it's something that I honestly had been thinking about at the time, but 'us' is something I can't see happening ever again.  It wasn't meant as a preamble to us getting back together... .I think you assume a lot of things sometimes.  I care about you Hades, just as you care about me.  But, I walked away for a reason - and nothing has changed about that.  I don't think you'll ever change the issues in your life and that isn't something I could ever have in my life again.  You can't love me, because you don't love yourself.

As for my relationship with S13 - it is the most important thing!  For you to suggest that my motivation for hanging with S13 is about you and I - well I would never do that.  You honestly even thinking that is beyond words to me.

Anyway, I enjoy being your friend too and I don't want things to be awkward either.



Anyway I just want to get peoples thoughts on this... .her part as well as mine.  Sorry this is so long!

GMS

[GiveMeStrength11]

Hey all,

So over the last few months my uBPDxgf has been giving me hints and clues as to wanting to get back together... .things she'd say and do etc.  I have to admit, it got me thinking about things between us again and about 3 weeks ago we had a conversation about us.  During that conversation I said that I still loved her (I think a part of us always will - normal people do that) and that I didn't necessarily believe that things were over between her and I.  Call it confusion, call it regression, call it whatever you want - I said it, I own it.  She had said she didn't feel that way and I said I didn't believe her because of what she had been saying or doing for the past few months prior to that talk.  We talked a bit about the past and I explained to her how all her lying, alchohol and drug use and other things had hurt me and that's why I had walked away.  The conversation ended with me saying that I wasn't suggesting we get back together or anything, just that we remain friends (part of me knew that no matter what I was feeling at the time, I could never get back into that mess with her)  Anyway, we don't hang out much or even talk for that matter, but I do still have a relationship with her youngest son... .we hang out weekly because he doesn't have a father figure around and I care about the kid.

So here's where it gets interesting... .I haven't talked to or seen her in honestly 2 weeks and we had decided that we were going to have lunch this week.  NO big deal, harmless in my opinion.  So I get a text saying she is cancelling and I said ok why? I get a response that she'll send me an email because it's too long to text.  So here's her email:

Hey, so again, yes you are correct that I am uncomfortable spending time with you since our last talk.  What makes me most uncomfortable is that I didn't feel like you were hearing or accepting what I was saying; I understand that you do not feel that you and I are over but I need you to understand that I do not feel the same.

I do enjoy being your friend; but knowing that there may be a tension with our difference in feelings, I feel I should back off so I don't further interrupt your relationship with S13 as this is most important in my opinion!  I don't harbor any bad feelings for you and do not want this to be akward to anyone involved, I just don't think that spending time together at this point is something that we should do.

I will always care about you and treat you with respect, and I trust that your relationship with S13 has not been continued due to a hope of us reconnecting, but because you and he truly enjoy eachother's company  

I honestly had to laugh!  So here was my response:

I heard and understood what you were saying that night Hades (borrowed from another board user)   You love me, but don't feel that us being together is what you want or need.    It is over in your mind and heart.  I also know that most of that is your fear of getting close again and me walking away.  I'm going to call you on your BS though - for you to imply that you don't love me or have feelings for me 'in that way' is ludicrous.  Your actions and words over the past couple of months have suggested otherwise.  The reasons I started thinking about 'us' differently again was because of the things you said and did over those couple of months.  Just because I said I didn't believe certain things that night, didn't mean in anyway that I didn't understand your feelings or what you were saying.   I'm not arguing your feelings and I'm not pressing for anything more than friendship.  If that means you don't want to hang out, then I'm ok with that   I don't think there is any tension between us... .especially with a difference in feelings - that is something that you are perceiving and hasn't come from me.

When I said that I loved you still and that I didn't believe you and I were over - it's something that I honestly had been thinking about at the time, but 'us' is something I can't see happening ever again.  It wasn't meant as a preamble to us getting back together... .I think you assume a lot of things sometimes.  I care about you Hades, just as you care about me.  But, I walked away for a reason - and nothing has changed about that.  I don't think you'll ever change the issues in your life and that isn't something I could ever have in my life again.  You can't love me, because you don't love yourself.

As for my relationship with S13 - it is the most important thing!  For you to suggest that my motivation for hanging with S13 is about you and I - well I would never do that.  You honestly even thinking that is beyond words to me.

Anyway, I enjoy being your friend too and I don't want things to be awkward either.



Anyway I just want to get peoples thoughts on this... .her part as well as mine.  Sorry this is so long!

GMS

[MaybeSo]

I think I would have likely responded with something like... .

I understand your concerns,  and I respect your feelings as stated.  Please know that I am fine with things the way they are.  I do have your sons best interest at heart, and wish to preserve and enjoy the relationship I have with him,  no matter what happens between you and me.  Best to you, XXXXX

I don't know what it accomplishes to argue w/ someone over how they feel... .even if you don't agree with them, think they are nutz, think they are full of b.s., or whatever.  Especially if you do want to have a relationship with her son.

as for her part... .if she's BPD... .her feelings will change fast, so, you know... .it's what they do... .I acutally like that she is concerned about you being there for her son for his sake and not based on what is happening between you and her... .I understand you took it as an accusation or insult that she expressed her hope for this... .but, it's acutually good she is thinking about this... .I would be, too... .if it were my son.

[2010]

GMS11, this isn't going well, especially for her 13 year old Son. Am I to understand that you are calling his Mother "Hades" now as some surreptitious joke? If anything she represents Persephone, the wandering girl who was kidnapped by Hades and taken to the underworld. In fact, Persephone represents most Borderline women who do not have an identity and "wander" through the fields until they are carried away by the strengths of others (who represent Hades.)  In real life it's up to Persephone to get herself out and that means setting up boundaries and applying self determination to be free from those whom she tries to control or who try to control her.

It doesn't matter if you deserve this withdrawal from her- what matters most is acknowledging it and not trying to control it- thereby making things worse.  If she is BPD, she will swing back and forth toward you and away from you- expect this and let go of the outcome. Trying to control the pendulum swing only makes it swing further away from you. Thinking that you can control the withdrawal is incorrect- and you certainly dont want to involve her Son as an anchor point that she must return to as he is considered in your care during those times that he is with you.

One person is wishing for no contact and the other is wishing against it. Whomever wishes for no contact, must be respected.

I'm going to call you on your BS though - for you to imply that you don't love me or have feelings for me 'in that way' is ludicrous.

 Then this:

I don't think there is any tension between us... .especially with a difference in feelings - that is something that you are perceiving and hasn't come from me.

These two statements are clearly confusing- as the first statement is very tense and disallows her feelings and the second disallows her perceptions of the tension. How is there *not* tension when you call her changed feelings ludicrous?

Let her make her own decision and respect that decision. Accept that it is her decision. It may not be yours, but that is O.K.   The unfortunate part of this is that neither one of you are able to protect the Son from this back and forth exchange which has triangulated him.  He is now in an adult drama where he shouldn't be involved, that he didn't cause and he cannot control.  In spite of not having a Father figure around, it might be in his best interest if you detached from him to protect him from the hurt you feel, otherwise you may say something about his Mother that he may not want to hear.  Time to let go now.  

[lashout]

Both of your comments sounded healthy. It would be easier to detect her BPD if there is a switch or difference in what/how she writes.

I see compassion and empathy on both sides ... .and respect.

It hurts to let go and it hurts to be unexpectedly released. Are you sorry you left her?

Careful not to let the little guy be the vehicle that serves either of your emotional needs. Otherwise its great that everyone loves him and its awesome.

Take care... .

If shes BPD you'll have no regret, If she's not... .she's probably going to let go as she stated ... .

Either way I think you're safe with todays e-mail.

Maybe just  very sad to lose someone you love; both of you. Be well.

[MaybeSo]

In spite of not having a Father figure around, it might be in his best interest if you detached from him to protect him from the hurt you feel, otherwise you may say something about his Mother that he may not want to hear.

not to mention... .even if nothing is verbally said to him or in front of him... .this kind of angry hurt... .is an energy... .and it can be picked up and felt... .by her boy... .no matter how skilled you think you are at hiding it.    

[GiveMeStrength11]

Hmmm - when I wrote the email back to her, I wasn't angry or upset with her.  I am not angry with her at all... .I'm past that.  I forgave her and myself.  I wasn't arguing my point either.  The conversation we had a few weeks back was about the things that she had been saying and doing.  I honestly don't care if she has feelings for me or not - but her little game she was/is playing is getting old.  I had to speak my mind and what I thought.  I wasn't trying to convince her that she feels differently than she does... .whatever she is saying now is different than she was saying before. If she doesn't have feelings for me... .GREAT.  That is what I want. But some weird behavior on her part has been going on for months.  Maybe I slipped back into the fog for a little bit when she was playing her games.  I am not sorry I left the r/s and NO I don't want it back.  She was the one who asked to be friends a few months back and I thought I could handle that because I am out of it.  I haven't done or said anything - other than that one conversation - to lead her to believe I would like to get back together or be with her.  I think I was confused because of the way she was behaving around me. 

Did it bother me that she inferred that I might be hanging out with her son to reconnect with her... .no.  But I was speechless to think that anyone would think that... .only a person who is capable of that, could accuse someone else of doing it. IMHO

Anyway - I appreciate the input, but don't think everyone here sees the whole picture

thanks - GMS

[jhan6120]

Her email sounds like a bunch of manipulation. Ditch her for good. Forever.

You sound like you're still hurting. The good thing is that you can learn from your hurt. The bad thing is that she will NEVER learn from hers. EVER.

You deserve better.

[GiveMeStrength11]

Jhan,

Thank you!  I was wondering why I was the only one who saw this as manipulation or some kind of game.  I'm not still hurting, but I did get confused for a little while when she was coming at me trying to get things back again. 

I appreciate your insight and you are right - I do deserve better!  We all do!


GMS

[Ace]

My wife does this all the time when she breaks up with me.  She will send hints and be really nice and loving and act like we are a couple, and then when I would respond to those hints, act like she didn't need me, that she couldn't live with me, etc... ., blaming me and requiring change on my part for it to work.    It is a game they play to create drama, as well as get the upper hand.  It could also be a test, sort of a feeler to see where you and she stand.   

Also, I am thinking the reason she likes the arrangement with you and her son is because it keeps you in her life, where she thinks she can get you back in case she needs you.  I know a "normal" mom would be thinking about the son and what is best for him, but it has been my experience that kids are used like pawns in the BPD's chess game.  Everything goes back to numero uno, that being the BPD partner.  Their needs/wants/desires come before anything else.   

Trust your gut.  You know the situation better than anyone. 

[OTH]

Jhan,

Thank you!  I was wondering why I was the only one who saw this as manipulation or some kind of game.  I'm not still hurting, but I did get confused for a little while when she was coming at me trying to get things back again. 

I appreciate your insight and you are right - I do deserve better!  We all do!


GMS

I am wondering why you are surprised there is manipulation and game playing. This is typical behavior of someone suffering from borderline personality disorder.

People with BPD often experience a love-hate relationship with others. They may idealize someone one moment and then abruptly and dramatically shift to fury and hate over perceived slights or even misunderstandings. This is because people with the disorder have difficulty accepting gray areas — things are either black or white. For instance, in the eyes of a person with BPD, someone is either good or evil. And that same person may be good one day and evil the next.

I think maybeso and 2010s advice is spot on. Your reactions to her seem to show there is still hurt and misunderstanding. Have you read the staying board material? You need to if you are going to have a relationship with a borderline. You have to accept she is borderline. You have to establish strong boundaries because she is borderline. You have to be the adult. This means detaching from the push/pull cycle as 2010 tried to point out to you. You have to recognize that you are in a relationship with a disordered individual. Why do you expect her to not act disordered?

[GiveMeStrength11]

Ace,

I agree with your assessment whole heartedly.  I know it's a game or a test.  I also know that is why she likes me to have the relationship with her son.  After she had asked me to be friends again, it was her suggestion that I keep the close r/s with her son that I had before things ended with us.  And I also know she has used him to get info about and from me over the course of the last year that we haven't been together. It is very sad and that is one of the reasons I am in his life... .so hopefully he doesn't get sucked up in her crap and has some normalcy.  There is nothing normal about her behavior and I don't expect there to be.   I do not talk to him about his mom or how things are between us.  I just spend time with a great kid, in the hopes he'll have an easier life than he has had.

OTH - That's a great question that you brought up to me.  I am not surprised... .I know the push/pull is there and that's what she is/was trying again.  I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion though about my hurt and misunderstanding.  I have read material on the staying board... .but I am not IN this r/s, nor do I have plans to go back to it.  I walked away, I healed and I forgave.  I also accept that she is BPD.  I have, over the course of the last few months that we have been friends been the adult and I don't let her or the things she does get to me.  The conversation we had a few weeks ago was about me setting boundaries and I think that most of what I said yesterday in that email was me reinforcing those boundaries... .at least that was my intention.  I was honest with her in my how I feel and what I believe.  One of my boundaries though, is that I will not let her tell me things are black, when they are white.  I dealt with that for almost 3 years and she honestly had me believing that I didn't know what was going on most of the time.  Questioning myself and what I remembered.  My intent with this boundary is to not let her confuse me anymore... to validate myslef by telling her that I remember things differently and will not be told I am wrong.  It's not an arguement, but my version of what I know.  As for your last question... .I have no idea why I expect her to not act disordered. 

Thanks both of you!

GMS

[Owly]

I am a little perplexed by your story.  You told her you still loved her and she responded that she didn't feel the same way and she wrote (in my opinion) a very succinct e-mail stating her feelings and exactly what relationship she wants to have with you.  It seems to me (and again, it's just my opinion) that you are baiting her... .if she truly is BPD, she will, of course, take the bait and you two can go around and around and around ad nauseum.  My thoughts are, she is offering you an opportunity for limited contact - I'd take it and be thankful.

[Ace]

In my experience the BPD's actions and words are two completely different animals.  Reading the words, yes, she "seems" together and succinct.  But taking GMS at his word, if she is throwing hints that she still wants him back, those words don't agree to her actions.  Also, my wife will appear very together... .albeit controlling, but together in what she says, when she is not yelling, criticizing, name calling, swearing, etc... .    This is an illusion to all but those that live with her.  But she does the exact same thing.  She will throw hints, staring at me, smiling, frowning, turning her head to the side a little, laughing with me, joking, more smiling, touching my hand, etc... .  I have become an almost expert at picking up on these non-verbal queues.  It has happened so often that I have gotten good at it.  I have gotten a few since my wife said she wanted a divorce.  It is a game, and they are good at it.  Unfortunately the game is them playing with our emotions for their own sick entertainment.   

[OTH]

but I am not IN this r/s

Just because it is not a romantic relationship doesn't mean you are not in a r/s with her. You are! You are still communicating and still seeing her son. This is your current relationship with her. Because of your past you will trigger her. Expect it. If you can't deal with it break all contact. Honestly. It might be best. It is quite possible the son could be used to keep you in the game. Give it some thought. I  know you are trying to do the right thing. It is admirable you have feelings for the boy and want to help. The best help might be to just let go. Make sure you really understand what you are taking on here. It won't be easy.

Best Regards,

OTH

[GiveMeStrength11]

Thanks OTH - very valid points and good food for thought


GMS

[MaybeSo]

I know it's a game or a test

There's a really excellent couple of threads right now about Black/White Splitting behavior.  This is what you are expereincing, and it's like the Holy Grail of BPD.  It's not a game, I think we personalize  it and at the same time minimize what we are dealing with.  This is not a person with poor dating skills.  She is disordered.  She is not thinking "I want to play games" ... .this is just what she does, this is how her brain works... .it screws everything up in her life so there's a lot of frantic lying and gamey behavior and manipulation to damage control it for herself, but if she is BPD, her brain will go back and forth and think in this 'split' kind of way... .it is what her brain does, it is all she knows... .because her brain operates this way.  Getting after her about it... .is like if I confronted you about breathing. Arguing about it, would be like me arguing with you about breathing.  Boundaries are great, but they are not about controlling her, but protecting yourself.   

One of my boundaries though, is that I will not let her tell me things are black, when they are white

.  This will work if the boundary is about what you will do to take care of yourself if she is doing something you find painful or unacceptable.  But you cannot control her, what she does, say's, behaves, thinks... .you cannot control her disordered brain... .at all.  The boundary is for you, not her.  If she is hurting you, bothering you, irritating you... .the boundary is self care.  "i leave, I walk, I hang up, I delete, I go N/C, I take a time out... .the boundary is for you... .not her.

[Ace]

Agreed, it is not a game to them.  They do what they do to "protect" themselves.  I agree, I think we do simplify the process.  I think on the staying board and even the non decided board I was far more clinical than I am here.  I would give all types of technical reasons and explanations for their behavior. 

I find it easier to detach when I view her as just being crazy and playing games, than to think of my wife as someone who has a mental disorder and is sick.  The latter makes me want to help her and feel sorry for her.  I don't want to, I want to detach.   

[jhan6120]

Agreed, it is not a game to them.  They do what they do to "protect" themselves.  I agree, I think we do simplify the process.  I think on the staying board and even the non decided board I was far more clinical than I am here.  I would give all types of technical reasons and explanations for their behavior. 

I find it easier to detach when I view her as just being crazy and playing games, than to think of my wife as someone who has a mental disorder and is sick.  The latter makes me want to help her and feel sorry for her.  I don't want to, I want to detach.   

I hear you on that. Much easier for me to accept it when I think of my ex in terms of "You can't cure crazy."

[MaybeSo]

I think on the staying board and even the non decided board I was far more clinical than I am here.  I would give all types of technical reasons and explanations for their behavior

this is very understandable, I vacilate on this too, for the same reasons.

on the other hand... .the clincial reality of this disorder helps me on some levels to really "get it"... .that it's serious, it's not going to change,... .and it's not something to mess around with or waste my time with, in terms of  trying to get this person to understand my feelings, trying to get them to act normal, or sparring with them over what is  'reality'... . 

[Owly]

My thoughts (and you asked) are this... .you are on the "detaching" board and yet you are continuing to bait her.  What is the purpose of this?  Disengage.  So what if you still have feelings for her?  Share those with other friends, not her.  If she truly is BPD (and you listed her as undiagnosed - was this your diagnosis?) - then you are the one egging her on.  Stop.  Again, just my thoughts... .