Standing out from other ex's/getting help

[dangler321]

I was wondering if there is ever times in pwuBPD lives when they get to a stage of their life or reach certain maturity when they perhaps ever look back and think to themselves that may be that one partner they were with actually did stand out from the crowd of all the other ex’s and see that their time spent with that ex stood out as being the one relationship that they had that provided the true happiness in life they craved and that from all the other partners they have had was the one person who had ever showed enough understanding of them and their problems and determination to help them, to somehow inspire them to do something positive about their illness and finally seek help & treatment in order for them to reconcile and work towards maintaining a more stable relationship with that ex at some stage?  Even if it might mean having to experience further bad relationships in future to realise what they have lost.

From what I know about my ex fiancé with uBPD all her previous partners and relationships have been with partners that never understood her problems, had fewer things in common and less compatibility and shared dreams or generally treated her badly.

My ex-says (and I have mentioned in previous posts) that I have been the one person she has ever been with that has treated her as well, truly understood her, been as compatible and happy with and felt a different special, deep loving feeling for, most intelligent & the most physically attractive (not being big headed, from the pics I know I have!) & general the best person she has ever met in her life. That was after we broke up 7 weeks ago.

She said I have made more positive and lasting changes in her life regarding dealing with problems, increasing her self-esteem and confidence and helped her mature more than anyone else she has been with before. Though I suppose this progress could digress.

She’s nearly 26 and had four reasonably long term relationships since 16 and a handful of shorter flings. She starting to see she does have a problem, but would appear to fearful & lacks family support at present. She lives in the family home now.

I believe her families ignorance, lack of encouragement & positive problem solving, negativity, poor understanding, reliance on alcohol to try and help blot out their troubles and excessive control & manipulation over my ex are the main causes for her not seeking help and us not being together at the moment.

Would leaving the family home help her? Her symptoms did improve somewhat whilst living with me. Though at the time I had no knowledge of BPD.

Is there an average age of maturity when pwBPD generally tend to become more settled in relationships & seek help or is it a life long problem until treated?

[StillInShock]

I don't think they stop for one second to reflect the positive influence that we might have left on them... .this is associated with  a humanitarian feeling that can be mixed with shame and guilt over how they treated us.

They have corrupted emotions... .like my ex-fiance who told me and told his family that he has never ever loved anyone in his entire life as much as he loved me

But when he disposed me he said the problem is not that he doesn't love me... .the problem that we are not compatible, he lost interest, and he doesn't want to waste his time on loving me... .these were his exact words

And he turned into a vindictive, heartless monster that I no longer was able to recognize... he refused to let me retrieve a precious gift from my mom... .that I was planning to display on our future house

They have nothing but an empty hole in their chests... .they don't waste their time on memories from the past... .the urge and the excitation to drain the life from a new victim is blinding them from seeing the trail of disasters they left behind

[MaybeSo]

I think what you are describing is a common fantasy. This fantasy, or something similar, of being the one who somehow stands out or makes the difference compared to any other, is just that. A fantasy. I have been told many wonderful things by my ex about the way I stand out and made all the difference on his life... .and then during the devaluation stage I always got treated just like everyone else, including ex wife, children, friends etc. I now see these proclamations as hugely inflated and grandiose, which by the way, is indicative of distorted thinking. The word "grandiose" can be found on any mental health status exam, and it's not a good sign when a clinician checks it off. The flip side of their unhealthy grandiosity when putting us on a pedestal (temporarily) is our own need to be put there, which is likewise, grandiose. And likewise, unhealthy. Many people love my ex. His disorder gets in the way of seeing that love realistically, and it gets in the way of him appreciating all the flawed people in his life who possess both good and bad traits, but love him anyway,

just like I do. He rejects anyone who really gets close and tries to love him. It's a disorder.

As for improvement, some get better with treatment. Most studies show improvement with

acting out behaviors that send them to the hospital if in treatment. I've not seen a study

that shows improvement in maintaing a stable romantic r/s. I have seen studies suggesting

some of the more dramatic acting out may calm down with age, but again, I've not seen

anything to show that they end up making good (read 'stable' r/s partners.

[beyondbelief]

My X is considerably older than yours and I will stand out in her mind forever.

Without a doubt I did far far more for my X than anyone else even considered doing.  In her mind I am the embodiment of evil and never did a single good thing for her and she is not shy about telling anyone and everyone that.  Since we split years ago she has tried everything she could think of to destroy my life.  Including making  numerous false allegations attempting to get me a jumpsuit and a surely roommate for decades.  As recently as last week she told me she will never give up.

So yes I will always stand out in her mind.

[2010]

may be that one partner they were with actually did stand out from the crowd of all the other ex’s and see that their time spent with that ex stood out as being the one relationship that they had that provided the true happiness in life they craved and that from all the other partners they have had was the one person who had ever showed enough understanding of them and their problems and determination to help them, to somehow inspire them to do something positive about their illness and finally seek help & treatment in order for them to reconcile and work towards maintaining a more stable relationship with that ex at some stage?

I'm sorry, but the answer is No. Borderlines blame in order to cast off shame- they have a better chance in therapy when they can make their own decisions.

Borderlines hope for the one partner (who believes or is led to believe that they are the "one" who can save the adult Borderline.)  They say attractive things to mirror the good in people for one reason and one reason only- for safety.

Borderlines gravitate to people with strong opinions about how the Borderline should act, what they should think and how they should (or shouldn't) live- which is exactly why they act out to keep themself sanctioned and corralled when they perceive this bondage to be withdrawing.  They jump from partner to partner to symbolize their successive failures to launch successfully and become persons of free will- and they use the former attachment as a persecution. They look for fixers, rescuers, "White Knights," Saviors and fantasy based personalities who have magical thinking who then compare themselves to the previous attachments and believe that they are better suited based upon the mirroring of good of the Borderline.

She said I have made more positive and lasting changes in her life regarding dealing with problems, increasing her self-esteem and confidence and helped her mature more than anyone else she has been with before.

Only she can do that for herself. You are not a magic missing piece of the puzzle.

Borderlines choose people who project their ideas of reference onto the deficient Borderline self.  The Borderline then mirrors the grandiosity of that projected self for safety reasons, (to attach)and issues statements of reassurance to the partner that they "have been the one person she has ever been with that has treated her as well, truly understood her, been as compatible and happy with and felt a different special, deep loving feeling for, most intelligent & the most physically attractive & general the best person she has ever met in her life."

Yes, that's fantasy.

Fixers, rescuers, "White Knights," or if women: "Florence Nightingales" (a syndrome of emotional attachment to a vulnerable person) Saviors, vulnerable narcissists and *fantasy based personalities who have magical thinking* -all issue opinions to the Borderline on how to live life properly.

This puts the Borderline into a "one-down" position that they are already quite comfortable with. These opinions also appear like commands to the Borderline whose distorted perceptions are already about scapegoating from childhood and defectiveness and failure to "become" outside of the family unit. Borderlines move from their family unit to a new controlling partner and back again so they can cast off blame rather than feel shame about their lack of autonomy.

These "tyrannical shoulds" that rescuers bring forth- fit neatly into the Borderlines concept of persecution, of bondage and of slavery. "Should, should, should, everybody thinks I should... .do you think I should?  Yes, I knew you would have the right answer!"  One week later: "You forced me to do something I didn't want to do."

Since the disorder is about the lack of free will and the giving away of power to others, the partner that seeks to provide the power (the shoulds) means the other has the "shouldn'ts" that need correction and deep inside the Borderline feels they are "kept" hostage.  

These two archetypes go together in spectacular dysfunction and continue the disorder as a locked trauma bond. ("Here, you're broken- I can fix you." wait- If you fix me- you won't need me- so I will continue to remain broken... .just to stay safe and secure. P.s. You are the best one yet that has tried to fix me!" Again, it's fantasy based thinking for both parties and victim/rescuer archetypes.

The only way for a Borderline to get well is to leave them to their own devices- this is called "reality testing." Let them figure out their own path and make their own decisions as well as mistakes.  That also includes understanding when you are being too gullible for believing that the fawning attention that is provided to you as "savior" in fantasy, is actually harming the chances of a Borderline surviving on their own.

The Borderline wants you to think that they cannot exist without you- that you are "the one" who can save them.  When it is said in order to keep you interested and in one up position and you believe it- you are playing right along with the disorder.  The reality is that you are no different than anyone else that has tried to help this person- for the real Knight in shining armor is inside their head and you just fit the part for your own need to be needed.  The choice for personal growth remains personal for both people- and no one can accomplish this for a Borderline except the Borderline themselves.

[traveller]

Brilliant 2010. I am definitely one of those *fantasy based personalities who have magical thinking*. I never, ever wanted to be a caretaker to a grown @ss man. It disgusts me, quite frankly. I was a struggling single parent when I met him and continued to be a struggling single parent, with more responsibilities, throughout my relationship. My friends accuse me of 'skipping through a field of lilies' quite often. I want to see the good in everyone. Hell, Disneyland is still magical for me. Something more to ponder, I suppose. Thank you.

*sorry for the thread hijack*

[2010]

   

Hell, Disneyland is still magical for me.

Disneyland *is* magical- it IS the happiest place on Earth- but, although I want to move into the family Disney Apt. on main Street (and I've asked,) I can't live there. Even in Fantasyland, I see several themes that apply to Borderline yearning: King Arthur and the Knights of the round table, Sleeping Beauty and her castle, -very romantic and beautiful stories but Borderline takes those-and turns them into Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

The beauty of these fantasized relationships are in their ability to bring out a child-like innocence for both parties.  Fantasy and yearning- which is really a reflection of the wants and desires (needs) of both people from childhood's hour and their need to belong to someone who gives life special meaning.

Unfortunately things go awry with Borderline because their blame thinking is almost delusional as a protective measure against becoming a mature Adult.  A person with Borderline has a distorted belief that the partner is now a punitive, cruel parent, who persecutes them for their inner child-like innocence and their inability to consider themselves equal to the "parent." Even when presented with evidence that no such persecution exists, the Borderline thinking makes it so. This is the saddest part of BPD- the distorted belief system and their memory of cruelty that serves them so badly.  They just cannot escape the persecution in order to go through the abandonment depression. 

It's almost as though the magic (part time good) in the relationship gets poisoned (part time bad) like the story of Snow White and the apple.  In fact, Snow White really does have much of the Borderline belief system in its storyline: the magic mirroring- who's the fairest of them all? You are.  Snow White is in hiding- so that a punitive witch/Queen won't persecute.  When the punitive witch/Queen finds out that Snow White exists- she tries to poison Snow White who flees, the safety she finds with the dwarves who allow her refuge only if "you will keep house for us, and cook, make beds, wash, sew, and knit, and keep everything clean and orderly, then you can stay" -is just a hostage situation.

Borderlines find safety in these hostage situations- and then flee from them- all the while thinking they are going to be poisoned by the parent Queen who exists intrapsychically in their mind.  It's really not a pleasant way to live, but the thinking can be confronted with a really good therapist- one who doesn't allow for manipulation.

That leaves the rest of us to pick up the pieces of the mirror- and figure out what was needed from the relationship. Usually this takes awhile and feelings swirl about in stages. Let yourself feel the pain- but remember, this really was all about you and where you come from. The love of fantasy isn't a bad thing- but we must know when to test it with reality. A necessary lesson to learn- and one that you should be proud of. 

[dangler321]

Thanks for the replies everyone it has helped me understand the situation a great deal better and the things she has said to me about previous ex bf's seem to be making more sense.

Certainly when we first met she wouldn't have a good word to say about them at all, Though as our relationship went on she would at times sort of flip back and say they perhaps weren't always as bad as she had on occasions made them out to be, except for may be the ex she had before me. Saying that even her hatred of him has seemed to have slightly got less since we split up and now she says she doesn't hate him like she said before, rather doesn't like the way he treats women.

Does the intensity of the r/s fantasies vary from person to person who suffer from BPD? And for instance if a sufferer had milder symptoms would they ever begin realising that fantasy is quite different to reality. Is that the 'reality testing' you refer to?

I just feel sorry & pity for her as I know deep she is a lovely person & deserves true happiness in her life & if she had therapy there could be some chance of that. I can't think from the time spent with her she could really come up with anything to make me out to sound like a bad person like she has with 1 or 2 other ex's, I treated her with a very great deal of dignity & respect.

Most of her reasons for splitting up, which seem to vary everytime we speak, dont even directly involve me i.e. she said she didn't always see eye to eye with my mother or it was down to external pressures i.e. money or problems with our flat. The one small habit she did start blaming that did directly involve me is something she knows I have totally given up now immediately since break up and she continually and just the other day says she is very proud of me for that.

Any reason she has said that directly involved me actually sound more like they have been borne in her head by her family, more often than not says her mum said this & sister said that about me, which are all inaccurate or lies which I swiftly disprove to her & she seems to listen to me & proves to me they are manipulating her thinking & I tell her that too. She does appear to trust what I say. Rarely does her reasons for breaking up come directly from what she says she thinks.

I really do get the impression she is at a stage in her head were she is starting to see the reality side of things from the fantasy & is torn between the two. Says she feels her heart is telling her I'm the right person but her head is saying otherwise.

Dont know if it says anything but she has re-occuring dreams she is being strangled of late, I don't know if all that dream meaning stuff is true or not. Apparently it means that true feelings and expressions are being restricted or suppressed or a decision that has been made is not what the person deep down truly wants. I told her this the other day and she said 'that makes a lot of sense' i.e. she's not really doing what she wants.

[MaybeSo]

Read through your last post. The theme is everyone telling her what to think, including you. Would a healthy grown up be looking to all these people to tell her what is real? At her age, family can so easily msnipulate her perceptions? Then you provide her with an alternate, opposite perception? Where is she in all this? There is no person there. This is the rescuing and tryannical shoulds 2010 just posted on. You are also getting triangulated.  Pitying her is the one-down position 2010 just wrote about. In the dream, she is being strangled by the hands of family who do not allow her to be her... .but the fantasy is that your hands are only there to rescue her. Believe me, your hands will be viewed as "strangling" if you continue in this role. Leave her to figure things out for herself. Let her find a way to become a person. This is a gift to her, playing out an imagined rescue role will make both of you unhealthy and very unhappy.

[rollercoasterrider]

Excellent thread that seemed to divert from its original intent, but excellent none the less.

The standing out from other ex’s concept is very intriguing.  I think most of us on this board would like to think that.  It is part of our belief system.  We came to them, and them to us,   with us as the rescuer.  We were the knight in shining armor, etc.  And we were thought of as perfect, idolized.  They filled a need in us, we filled a need in them.  With their dysfunctional ways, their needs and wants grew.  We filled it.  They needed more, we filled it.  They wanted it differently.  We did that.  We came here, we started to treat them.  We learned how to communicate with them.  We allowed them to walk on us when they were dysfunctional.  Why?  Because they were fulfilling a need of ours too.  A need to be loved, a need to be needed, a need for sex, a need for……... .(You fill in the blank).  They were masters at seeing what it was, and filling it.  We allowed ourselves to be abused and manipulated by them to get what we needed.  We thought all their needs were being met too.

I believe in the end, once the r/s is over.  We will be as black as all their other ex’s unless they are attempting to recycle or use us in their triangle.  Why?  They will think exactly like we do.  They will think about all the things they did for us.  They idolized us, they loved us, they gave us the sex we wanted and how we wanted it, they were there for us all the time, they gave us……….(fill in the blank again).  They will negatively think about all the changes they made for us just to be with us.  But in the end, not being with us, means there was something that didn’t work.  And with their protective minds, it has to be externally based problems.  It was always their ex’s fault.  We are now part of that list.

So as a real treatment for ourselves.  We must learn to have our own sense of self.  Of recognizing that we are ok with who we are and who we want to be.  That our life choices are our choices.  That everything we did in the past, including our r/s with them was just us doing the best we can with who we were.  We didn’t choose to be codependent, or a savior.  It’s who we became because of our backgrounds.  If that isn’t working for you in life, then its up to us to change ourselves.  Be proud of your time with them.  Recognize it was both a wonderful experience, followed by a tremendous learning experience.  Recognize that you did make a difference in their lives, even if they only knew that for a moment.  Even if they cannot remember it later.  Even if they must destroy that memory in order to move on.  

You are the healthy one if you can keep the positive memories as positive memories, and you can remember the bad times as the point in time in your life, where you recognized it was time to change.  I will always love my xBPDgf.  I will always remember those wonderful times.  I will always give thanks that the bad times allowed me to learn, to grow, to change, and become more of who I want to be.  I think that may be the most significant difference between me and her.  I remember the good times, I recognize my role in the r/s dysfunction, I have chosen to pursue “me” by learning and growing.

[LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel]

Read through your last post. The theme is everyone telling her what to think, including you. Would a healthy grown up be looking to all these people to tell her what is real? At her age, family can so easily msnipulate her perceptions? Then you provide her with an alternate, opposite perception? Where is she in all this? There is no person there. This is the rescuing and tryannical shoulds 2010 just posted on. You are also getting triangulated.  Pitying her is the one-down position 2010 just wrote about. In the dream, she is being strangled by the hands of family who do not allow her to be her... .but the fantasy is that your hands are only there to rescue her. Believe me, your hands will be viewed as "strangling" if you continue in this role. Leave her to figure things out for herself. Let her find a way to become a person. This is a gift to her, playing out an imagined rescue role will make both of you unhealthy and very unhappy.

I needed to read this today MaybeSo   

Oh and 2010 does it again... .im gonna track him down... .like Batman... . 

[dangler321]

Yeah I see what your all saying.

I guess the best & only thing I can do now then is hope she can find the strength to stand up for herself & her future happiness and make that choice to find that help for herself now.

Unfortunately completely cutting off right now is not totally possible as we have a few finances that have to be sorted that could take a few months.

Though hope is fading now I'm still sort of at that phase if she did get help I might consider trying to reconcile the r/s & work at it if she did. I've worked on and already started to improve in the areas I see myself where I went wrong & got a far better understand of her now. And surely not every pwBPD who has broken up has never been able to return and stay with an ex partner and had a life-long r/s after getting treatment, surely?

One thing I did say to her a week back when the contact started dropping off between us is that I will only ever look back at the happy and positive memories, not hold any grudges or dwell on any bad memories because I know from my past I have done that and allowed negativety to eat me up inside.

I have learned more in the last 7 weeks since splitting up, researching the true reasons for our break up, learned more about myself and life in general than I probably have done in the last 10 years prior to this r/s. Plus kicked a 14 year habit with unbelievable ease & got a lot mentally stronger.

I was never happy in myself or r/s in those 10 years and thought for the last 2 years this r/s has lasted for, I had found my true happiness and purpose in life, I'm fast coming to realise that even if this r/s isn't to be it has been the biggest and most positive turning point in my life and feel I'm starting to get to that stage when I can move on into the future and truley be happy in myself now.

[MaybeSo]

And surely not every pwBPD who has broken up has never been able to return and stay with an ex partner and had a life-long r/s after getting treatment, surely?

When you say stay together... .I assume you mean stay together in a happy and healthy r/s?  If we are talking about just staying together regardless of the misery, you will see plenty of evidence of that on this board.

I'm sure there are anecdotal success stories in terms of happiness in r/s post treatment,   I just have not seen any research where treatment measures this kind of thing, as this would be a hard thing to measure in terms of it being a longitudinal study (takes years of tracking) and what you are measuring is highly subjective (r/s satisfaction).  I would imagine we will see some studies eventually, as this is an important area for treatment.  

Currently, treatment and research has focused on stopping  self harming and suicidal behaviors etc., for obvious  reasons.  We need to keep these folks alive and stable before we worry too greatly about whether or not they make fantastic romantic partners, right?

There is one story on the Staying Board that I know of that is a r/s success story.  Her name is 'Steph', you may want to read some of her posts.  Hint:  She had to do nearly as much work on her own codep traits as her partner had to do on his BPD traits.    

[diotima]

Dangler: Yes, Steph's story is very unusual. Her husband stayed in T the whole time--even when they split up for two years. He did this for himself and he was not a cheater or a drug user. I know of only one other long-term r/s and that is a (former) BPD woman friend of mine--about 20 years of T. She was not an acting out BPD: more benign. She had quite a few r/s's, a divorce, and has been with her current husband for almost 20 years. Extremely rare. She was committed to her own therapy for many, many years and became more reflective than one would expect given the BPD. She is now a therapist.

I get the feeling that you are in the bargaining stage, and I understand it: "If only s/he would see the light"! I had those thoughts for so long in my r/s. It was me who wasn't seeing the light, and I don't think my ex ever will but that is his problem. This is not something to spin hopes around. It tears us up to detach from that dream. It is very hard for me to allow myself to spend much time even thinking about the good things with my ex at this point because it brings me right back to: "why doesn't he see?" I have enough trouble trying to avoid triggers (holidays, all the things we shared, etc.). He isn't going to see, even though I was the "one he had been waiting for all his life" and wished he had met me when he was young, etc., etc. Had I married him, it would probably have killed me to live with the abuse, the gaslighting, the lies, criticisms, controlling behavior, cheating--you name it. The T friend mentioned above keeps telling me I dodged a bullet big time by now allowing another recycle. This is what most BPDs are like, although some don't cheat. Why do you want that in your life?

Diotima

[traveller]

   

Hell, Disneyland is still magical for me.

Disneyland *is* magical- it IS the happiest place on Earth- but, although I want to move into the family Disney Apt. on main Street (and I've asked,) I can't live there. Even in Fantasyland, I see several themes that apply to Borderline yearning: King Arthur and the Knights of the round table, Sleeping Beauty and her castle, -very romantic and beautiful stories but Borderline takes those-and turns them into Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.


It's almost as though the magic (part time good) in the relationship gets poisoned (part time bad) like the story of Snow White and the apple.  In fact, Snow White really does have much of the Borderline belief system in its storyline: the magic mirroring- who's the fairest of them all? You are.  Snow White is in hiding- so that a punitive witch/Queen won't persecute.  When the punitive witch/Queen finds out that Snow White exists- she tries to poison Snow White who flees, the safety she finds with the dwarves who allow her refuge only if "you will keep house for us, and cook, make beds, wash, sew, and knit, and keep everything clean and orderly, then you can stay" -is just a hostage situation.

LOL! I love this! So very true... .

[bluesclues]

Thank you 2010, this perfectly explains a whole lot.