is this response rational?

[anna58]

Hi,

The background: former housemate/friend/acting like significant other in many ways. Issues of abandonment and using me to live with when he had no place to live. Has trouble staying in one place due to his illness. currently homeless and looking for place he can afford in LA but any minute feels he has to give up and go back to canada.

We had a visit planned for him to come here for 10 days on jan 1 (we made the plans on dec 1).  On dec 21 i said i couldn't do the visit. i needed for my own health and work reasons (i have chronic illness). i didn't know any earlier that this would be the case.  Worried also that he'd ask too much of me--already trying to get me to pick him up at airport almost 2 hours away--pawing at me about that a few times. can't take no for an answer, though eventually does.

The apt he had almost lined up after the 10 days he planned to be here, fell through. he is blaming me. if he'd come here, that place wouldn't have fallen through he says. he asked owner if he could move in earlier, owner asked for more financial things that my friend felt were unreasonable, and it fell through. i've seen this happen with him a few times.  i am being blamed. he believes that if original plans had stayed in place, he'd be in that apt and be ok. my change of plans felt like abandonment and upset everything in terms of his housing and ability to stay in LA.

in response to my change in plans, he drove to las vegas and stayed in expensive hotel and was in terrible shape, thrown into a whirlwind of upheaval. found a place to rent a few days, still looking for something just for a month or two since he is unemployed and won't stay in LA if work doesn't happen soon.

today, in email he mentioned that he t10 days he was not here cost him $1200. i said that i could have communicated more with him about why i cancelled our visit, but i thought he had a place to live after those 10 days and that he would find a friend or hotel for 10 days. not great, but not a disaster. and i had to take care of myself.   

he says that i did not give him enough notice about cancelling. that i was inconsiderate, unfair, and he  is paying for it.

i feel badly--did i ignore the fact that he was homeless and would pay for hotel ( he has enough money) and that is more important than my needing time to work and recover my strength after the holidays? i have a small apt, he sleeps in living room and the stress might have lost me work, clients, and again, i have illness.  but i'm not clear on whether i may have been unfeeling, inconsiderate. also, he stayed with me two months when he was invited for a week. i asked him to leave twice, and he didn't. the next option would have been to call police. i didn't want to do that.

i know that my cancelling our visit also had to do with that--he  makes unilateral decisions or manipulates with "feel good" stuff like holding my hand and us going out for a good meal and being close, talking. it was a pretend relationship or pretend living together. all the elements but none of the reality. 

i drew the line when i knew the visit was not a good time for me. i never said that it was leftover anger and concern about his previously overstaying his welcome. should i have said that? maybe i should have been more aware of that?

and, is it simply ok for me to need to change the plan, even though i'm sorry i have to do so?

i emailed that i wasn't responsible for what happened with the apt he almost moved into. he asked why i brought it up.  i said because he mentioned how much it cost him during those 10 days and even now. his response "i'm not asking you to reimburse me, am i?"  apparently, that occurred to him. he has 2 lawsuits going now with companies, not friends/individuals.

here is today's email from him:


"I deserved more notice than you gave me. I had no control over how much notice you did give me but it wasn't much.  It ended up costing me a lot in terms of stress and financially and I'm still dealing with the consequences and don't know where I'll end up as a result. I don't know why you want to go over this again. I believe what I stated is an accurate and succinct account of what happened. I'm not asking you for anything. All you can do at this point is admit you gave me very little notice for whatever reason and acknowledge I have to deal with the consequences which I'm doing. The only decent thing you should doing  is apologizing. The only responsible thing I can do is deal with the consequences of what happened and protect myself better next time. "

I need a reality check. Was I inconsiderate? And, what do you hear/see in this email? What is going on?

Thank you so much for bearing with me in this long email.

Anna

[Sofie]

i feel badly--did i ignore the fact that he was homeless and would pay for hotel ( he has enough money) and that is more important than my needing time to work and recover my strength after the holidays? i have a small apt, he sleeps in living room and the stress might have lost me work, clients, and again, i have illness.  but i'm not clear on whether i may have been unfeeling, inconsiderate. also, he stayed with me two months when he was invited for a week. i asked him to leave twice, and he didn't. the next option would have been to call police. i didn't want to do that.


i drew the line when i knew the visit was not a good time for me. i never said that it was leftover anger and concern about his previously overstaying his welcome. should i have said that? maybe i should have been more aware of that?

and, is it simply ok for me to need to change the plan, even though i'm sorry i have to do so?

Anna,

 

Reading the above paragraphs post made me think of an experience I had regarding my exBPD - I was sitting on a plane that was about to take off trying to soothe my ex over the phone and make her understand that I'd be back soon. An elderly woman sitting next to me had overheard my conversation, and when I hung up she smiled at me and said, "It's always difficult to leave little kids." She seriously thought that I had been speaking with my little son/daughter - now what does THAT say?   

Your friend is a grown man, not a child, although the above paragraphs could make the reader think so, if they were taken out of this context. Your friend is responsible for his own life, the situation he is in and for his own feelings - you are "only" responsible for your life and your feelings. Being in a relationship with a pwBPD tends to make us confuse our needs with those of our disordered partners. Focus on what YOU feel.

[Mouser]

The tone and wording of his e-mail is right out of the queenBPD textbook example.

My advice: Run for the hills - go total NC, forever.

[whatarideout]

I need a reality check.

we teach people how to treat us.

this loser will continue to pull on your strings of guilt and treat you like a doormat until you decide it's not ok. he is manipulative, selfish and disordered. you have done more than enough for a grown man who should be on his knees thanking you for the support you have given him.

he will continue this abuse unless you throw up boundaries left and right. that may be hard for you because you are here trying to figure out whether or not you were "inconsiderate" for putting your foot down.

anna, deep down we allow people to teat us in a certain way because we believe we deserve such treatment, or else we wouldn't put up with it for a second. the more you come to believe you don't deserve such manipulation, the more you'll put your foot down without feeling so badly about doing so.

[diotima]

Sigh. Anna, I can't tell you how many emails I received from my ex that sound like what you have quoted here. Trust yourself. Your ex is a master at playing this game for all it is worth. He sounds almost "reasonable," just like my ex. He's smart and he can get you to start accepting blame and start doubting yourself. So good that you asked for a reality check. You are sane and he is nuts.

Diotima

[anna58]

Thanks for the really helpful responses. I looked up Queen BPD. I'm kinda a newbie so that was new to me. Fits him like a glove.  His next email was this:

"Going to look at four places tomorrow. Hopefully one of them will be viable. Maybe get a visit in up there between Friday and when I can move into whatever I come up with. I guess I could stay at a hotel again, Friday and Saturday. Will let you know how it goes. Hope you both sleep better tonight. "

"you both" means me and my dog who he is very attached to and always puts first, before me and says he has a spiritual connection with the dog, because he , too, is like a wild animal, due to his abusive upbringing (easily frightened, intuitive, etc)

so this email defies his earlier anger. still wants to visit so must trust me i guess. but he didn't ask me if this was a good time for me. in fact, he knows this weekend i have a friend visiting, which is why he said he'd stay in a hotel. he clearly wants the safety and security he feels by staying with me which has felt like home to him because i provide a warm welcoming home and enjoy his company. however, he doesn't leave because he doesn't have a home of his own. he has boxes of books here, and at two other friends' homes across the country, too.

so, i'm in the position of having to say no to him again. he has to be out of his place on friday and doesn't know where to go. so he wants to come here.

i'm angry he is putting me in this position. it's good for me to keep my boundaries. i'm not going to answer that email. i will respond to what he says about the available apts he sees tomorrow.

it's going to come down to him wanting to come here next week, too, i imagine. and i'll have to decide whether to shut him out. or not.

the original agreement was that he can visit me once he has an apt of his own to go back to. i could reiterate that. i feel like i'm being the tough love parent trying to launch her child into independence. oy vey.

i want to email one of his friends, who visited me once, a nice woman, and we correspond occasionally. she is level-headed, not terribly psychological. it's probably not a good boundary to cross. i'm curious what she thinks about what is happening. i imagine she thinks of him as a struggling, kind, genius. i don't think she has ever done anything to raise his ire.    ii won't contact her. just feeling like i want to say to her that he is out of control and really needs help. he  has a brother who is a wonderful psych nurse.  my friend needs to go on his own journey, i realize.

appreciate any feedback on his most recent email above. is he playing me, or what? he's desperate? afraid? wanting a free ride? i know he cares for me as much as he is capable of, and we have a good time a lot of the time. but as i read about BPD--it's all about him and he occupies the whole environment with his ideas, his life, his interests. there is no room for me, except the ways he likes that i care for him or seem successful. he can be very sensitive and insightful. i'm sure that's not rare with BPD.

i'm wavering on whether to let him come visit soon. or not until he is settled somewhere. this is hard. i want to stick to my guns and not let him visit until he has a place to live.

thank you all!

anna

[anna58]

one more comment... .i realize that the important part is that i don't want him to visit. maybe another time. but not now. i need to stick to that.

instead, i am asking what his reasons are for wanting to come here, and whether i should give in or not. when i do that, i am putting the focus on him. and the point here is for me to take care of me. let him struggle with being an independent adult.

i would feel very sad if he went back to canada, because then this whole fake relationship would be over. how messed up does THAT sound? it filled a void for me. and it would be a loss. we spent almost 2 years together. i want to "save" him from going to canada and help him find a place in portland oregon, for example. not let him fall through the cracks.

but he is manipulating with this bit about how he'll have to go back to canada, which is his last resort and he is unhappy there. i believe he truly fears he will be unable to find a place to live. he is frightened, a child, and desperate, and trying to find a way to be taken care of since he feels he can't take care of himself somehow--he fears he won't be able to.

enough said.

anna

[catnap]

the original agreement was that he can visit me once he has an apt of his own to go back to.

Since you have already set the boundary of him not visiting until he has his own place to return to, stick to your guns.  He is testing your boundaries. 

While what he is suggesting is very reasonable, his intentions, I fear are not.  What happens when the weekend is up. . .oops, some reason and could he please just stay a few days.  Not to mention he claims to have limited funds, yet round trip airfare, plus hotel expenses?

You cannot control his happiness, only your own.  That is a HUGE burden to place on another human being.  He is using Canada as the "monster" that is going to get him, if you don't do as he wishes.  If he really does not want to return to Canada, he will find a way not to do that on his own.

[MarshaDole]

Anna, you said someone else referred to him as a struggling genius. What kind of work does

he do (when he's actually working, I mean, because it sounds like he isn't doing that very much).

Also, if he's a Canadian citizen, he's not supposed to be working in the United States unless he has

a Green Card. Am I missing something here? Why is he looking for work in this country when he's from Canada?  Just curious to know the answers to these questions, but this guy sounds like all around bad news to me.  Hugs, Marsha

[anna58]

He is originally from canada but has lived and worked in the US for many years. He is a resident alien, and can apply for dual citizenship. He is a screenwriter. He used to be a journalist for years but isn't interested in that anymore. He doesn't seem interested in finding smaller jobs to bring in some money. He is "resourceful" as he says, and trying to put deals together for selling another film script, or working with some guy to put together a musical, that sort of thing--these are long term, long shots. He is very creative and brilliant, but also ill.  He has money from the film script he sold about 5 years ago, but fears it running out, fears he will never find work in the U.S, and how will he afford healthcare and a car, etc. etc. No confidence in himself to take care of himself in these ways.

catnap--what do you mean by "what he is suggesting is very reasonable" but his intentions are not? 

yes, he is using canada as the monster.

he is frugal with money ("treated" me to dinner but wanted me to chip in 8 bucks for something either tip or because he paid that much for something earlier in the day), but then will spend a lot on himself to get away somewhere in lovely hotel and get a media rate or free room since he was a journalist and says he will write a review of the hotel. but i'm not sure he ever does.  and yes, airfare here--couldn't he get a hotel in LA for that amount? why does he want to come here again?  because of the "oops, i need to stay a few extra days"--right? security in case he doesn't find a place or it's not ready to move in to. he let's many places fall through after almost agreeing to move him. he has serious anxiety, or whatever.

[catnap]

catnap--what do you mean by "what he is suggesting is very reasonable" but his intentions are not? 

I can see what you are saying. . .confusing.  His request may seem reasonable, but it is a manipulative move. 







 

[hijodeganas]

I never got into a situation like that per se, but the whole "All you can do is apologize for your bad behavior and all I can do is protect myself from your bad behavior" (i.e. it's all your fault and I take no responsibility) rationalization definitely rings bells.

[MaybeSo]

If he tends to sue people don't discuss any of these things in writing. Verbally acknowledging that this was a frustrating experience makes sense (validating his feelings). Don't do anything in writing though!

Your anxiety over when and how to say NO is co mingling with his high anxiety and this only increases the likelihood of of him feeling like he's getting mixed messages and sudden changes in plans or miscommunication. And you then feel manipulated.  You do appear to have a lot of mixed feelings about him and what you want.

Get very clear. Write down your boundary and repeat it with no further explanation. No JADE; justifying, defending, explaining.

You sre very wise to NOT involve a third party and discuss this with his friend. This would temporarily relieve some of your angst by sharing it with another but it triangulates and that always goes South and further complicates things.  You don't need her; just stick to your boundary. Be a broken record.

Finally, this is the leaving board. It sounds like you plan to maintain a r/s with him and need advice on how to best do that. The Staying Board is where you will find the most expertise on maintaining contact in as healthy a manner as possible, lots of good help with boundaries. Assertiveness, communication skills.

This Leaving Board has expertise on staying out of a R/s that has ended.

Where do you think you are at at this point?

Take deep breaths!

[Free One]

i'm wavering on whether to let him come visit soon. or not until he is settled somewhere. this is hard. i want to stick to my guns and not let him visit until he has a place to live.

Sounds to me like you instinct is telling you that you need that boundary. I've learned the hard way I should've listened to my gut many times and not buy into my ex's reality. It's ok to say no to him. You don't owe him anything.

[anna58]

Very good insights. Thank you all. Yes, I am confused about how I feel and I probably am giving mixed messages. I am not happy with myself about that. This is definitely MY problem. Does anyone have some understanding of why I might be doing it--where it comes from?

My guess is that I don't want to lose the good things. And my natural response to people is to first be accepting and happy and to jump into connecting with them. It's second nature to me.  Then, if I have negative feelings or they have hurt me somehow--I still try to maintain a connection. Don't always state what is wrong and stick to my limits/boundaries. I imagine this comes from having a father who needed me emotionally, and one doesn't leave their father or leave the house at age 10. I was loved for taking care of his emotional needs to connect. Ok, we know that's not good!  So, I repeat it. Sigh.

Assertiveness and sticking to my boundaries--not my strong suit at all. Really hard for me. I'm learning not to argue with this guy. To state clearly my position. And leave it at that.

Yes, I might need to change to the other board. I'm straddling the fence here.

Thank you so much. This is helping me.

[MaybeSo]

My background is very similar, I took care of the feelings of adults in my family... .mom, and dad especially. So... .saying NO is incredibly uncomfortable.  It's not a muscle I learned to use much at all... .but guess what... .it's has to be learned and these r/s are the prefect, and I mean PERFECT place to start excercising that muscle.  :)on't beat yourself up, be kind with yourself... .you didn't get to learn this earlier. So you get to learn it now! 

When there are 'parts' of the r/s we enjoy and want to hang onto... .it makes it much harder... .that's the hook.  So, start practicing radical acceptance... .that he a complex and difficult artist-type and he can be taxing and high maintence... .that is who he is and will always be.  He provides certain benefits but he comes as the whole package, the whole enchalada.  If the whole enchalada is worth it to you... .that's fine, just don't fool yourself that he is something different that what he is.  And start saying no.

No.

No thank you.

No, that doesn't work for me.

No, you can't stay here.

No, I can't do that.

No, I won't talk about it anymore.  

I am going to hang up now, bye.

No.

[Mouser]

Anna, save yourself A LOT of grief and shelve this relationship. Then take a look at yourself, as I am trying to do with myself 6½ weeks out, and ask yourself Why am I even considering re-engaging with such a flat out manipulative and narcissistic person?

Heal, soul search, and then look for a nice man.

NC.

The (emotional) life you save may be your own.

Peace

[anna58]

really appreciate the support i'm getting here. it's helping me through this. i'm learning!

i have not given in to his obvious appeal to come visit me or stay with me. here is the latest email tonight. bear in mind he has to be out of his current place on friday morning and has no place to go after that.

i offered to talk to him, in other words offer support via a phone call. but keeping my boundary of him not coming to stay with me. he knows i won't let him visit until he has his own apt to go back to. his response:

"I dont' know what there is to talk about. I'm not getting any offers to stay with anyone here in LA or in Oregon until I find a place so that leaves Toronto. I was afraid I wouldn't recover in time from the change of plans and that seems to be what has happened."

notice i'm still being blamed for telling him on dec 21 that he couldn't come visit here.

I can't think of any response to his email. i could be a supportive friend if he weren't guilt-tripping me. but he is. why should i ask him to visit when he is blaming me like this? i feel badly about his situation, and would be very sad to see him go to toronto. it would be the end of a relationship and that's tough as you all know. so you can see that staying strong, not inviting him here very likely means i am cutting him out of my life. which i know i should. that doesn't mean it's easy. he is playing me. i'm not happy. a grown up would just find a place to live. since he has the funds to get a place.

i know a couple of you suggested i move to the undecided board here. but since i started this thread, i want to continue this thread here. unless that is somehow violating rules.

[anna58]

oh. i guess i didn't ask my question.

is there any reasonable and decent response to his email?

after almost 2 years of being close, i don't want to be cold-hearted or unfair. it's very hard to be silent and NC when someone i've been close to is suffering. but he is also blaming and playing me,  i know.

is there something decent i can say to him and still hold my ground? or is there just nothing to say right now?

on friday something will happen--he'll make a decision under pressure, to stay in a hotel or to go to toronto. i could just hold tight. he will do what he has to do. sigh. urggh.  this is hard.

[catnap]

I dont' know what there is to talk about. I'm not getting any offers to stay with anyone here in LA or in Oregon until I find a place so that leaves Toronto. I was afraid I wouldn't recover in time from the change of plans and that seems to be what has happened.

I find it interesting that apparently you may not be the only one he is asking to stay with, and has set the condition that he have a place of his own to return to.  Notice also he is using the word "stay" not "visit". 

Reply:

"I can understand that you are frustrated in not having a place to stay, and I hope that one of the four apartments you have lined up to look at today will work out for you." 

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

You are validating his feelings and you are not defending your decision. 

[MaybeSo]

Anna, he said there is nothing more to talk about. Why do you feel you HAVE to respond at all? Let him hold this himself. Let go of it. He is an adult, let him figure it out on his own and have whatever feelings he wants. It's not manipulation unless you pick up the rope. Let it lie. crickets... .quiet... .ssshhhh

[2010]

We had a visit planned for him to come here for 10 days on jan 1 (we made the plans on dec 1).  On dec 21 i said i couldn't do the visit.

--he  makes unilateral decisions or manipulates with "feel good" stuff like holding my hand and us going out for a good meal and being close, talking. it was a pretend relationship or pretend living together. all the elements but none of the reality.  Acting like significant other in many ways.

i needed for my own health and work reasons (i have chronic illness). Worried also that he'd ask too much of me--already trying to get me to pick him up at airport almost 2 hours away--pawing at me about that a few times. can't take no for an answer, though eventually does. also, he stayed with me two months when he was invited for a week. i asked him to leave twice, and he didn't. the next option would have been to call police. i didn't want to do that.

"i know that my cancelling our visit also had to do with that"

This is an insight of yours that you had from past history. Why allow for the possibility of a repeat performance?

i drew the line when i knew the visit was not a good time for me.

You knew the visit was not good the last time. The cancellation of the new visit after three weeks was something that was out of his control. It would have been better (for the both of you) if you had not invited him at all.

i never said that it was leftover anger and concern about his previously overstaying his welcome. should i have said that? maybe i should have been more aware of that?

Yes. You should require consequences. So should he. Then you should determine whether or not you both can trust each other. It doesn’t appear that either of you can trust the other to communicate.

If this was a simple misunderstanding, you must communicate to determine. If you had an agreement that he could stay, and you trusted in him- you would not have to break the agreement.

Trust is necessary or else the friendship is over- you would have a boundary. You gave notice that the testing of the boundary was not to happen.  That makes things clear, doesn’t it? There’s no need to question yourself further. You have determined that he cannot be trusted. Your life is now open to new friendships and finding people that you can trust rather than re-hashing previous failures.

and, is it simply ok for me to need to change the plan, even though i'm sorry i have to do so?

Change happens- however, this idea of reference you have toward him is about pity and projection. You wish to support his change, not your own. How does that solve things when you feel badly about your own change?

i emailed that i wasn't responsible for what happened with the apt he almost moved into. he asked why i brought it up.  i said because he mentioned how much it cost him during those 10 days and even now. his response "i'm not asking you to reimburse me, am i?"  apparently, that occurred to him.

No, apparently it *didn’t* occur to him and he’s flummoxed you’ve brought it up. He’s only upset about your participation i.e; the cancellation at a late time, three weeks after the agreement. This is your word we are discussing- not his.

Think of it this way: If you had made plans with a friend who cancelled due to “stress” you caused, wouldn’t that cause you stress?  Wouldn’t it upset you that someone wasn’t being honest and upfront with you, and instead they chose to passive aggressively deny that they felt this way while leading you on for three weeks only to cancel? I’m sure that you would hope for an apology too.

And if that person failed to apologize- you’d surely decide that maybe the friendship needs no further contact.  You’d only be hurting each other.

here is today's email from him:


"I deserved more notice than you gave me. I had no control over how much notice you did give me but it wasn't much.  It ended up costing me a lot in terms of stress and financially and I'm still dealing with the consequences and don't know where I'll end up as a result. I don't know why you want to go over this again. I believe what I stated is an accurate and succinct account of what happened. I'm not asking you for anything. All you can do at this point is admit you gave me very little notice for whatever reason and acknowledge I have to deal with the consequences which I'm doing. The only decent thing you should doing  is apologizing. The only responsible thing I can do is deal with the consequences of what happened and protect myself better next time. "

He is communicating his hurt and he is absolutely right.

i said that i could have communicated more with him about why i cancelled our visit, i had to take care of myself.  

Yes, why not apologize in this manner? Take accountability for what is your responsibility and he will take accountability for what is his. That doesn't mean that he does not have the right to be hurt by your actions. If you want to end the friendship, leave on good terms the best way you know how. But both of you need to recognize a toxic mistrust and put boundaries in place. If the mistrust means ending the friendship for either of you, then end it before it becomes even more stress.  It appears as though you've already made this decision and rather than put it into play are questioning it.

[anna58]

sigh. the update is this. i feel very sad. this is the ending. and it is so so so bumming me out.

he emailed that he's hurt i haven't invited him to stay here, especially after i cancelled our visit earlier this month.  i replied that i understand he's hurt and that he is in a tough position needing a place to live. and that we may not see eye-to-eye on this.

he has two hotels lined up for the next 3 nights. luxury hotels of course. hoping he'll find an apt in the meantime.

here's the part that is hurtful to me... .he went to talk with a woman looking for housemate. he had said the place didn't seem promising, but went to talk to her anyway. they talked 3 hours about spirituality and other things. he enjoyed that. he will see the place tomorrow.

ok, i feel some jealousy. he is finding someone to take my place. this is his pattern. and he will weasel his way into her life with a lot of charm.

i guess i made it clear that i'm not his "go to" person who can be his mother or his close female person. so he is finding another.

i feel angry. i feel upset with self--hard to swallow this reality, to see what i really did. i got close to someone who can't give me what i need and who is emotionally manipulative, not treating me like a friend at this point, and twists his words.  depressing.

meanwhile, i sit in my modest apartment, behind in my work (self-employed and have chronic illness), dog has fleas and I am going nuts trying to take care of that. and he is in a four-star hotel. urgh.

whatever.

thanks for listening and for the support.   holding my ground--not letting him come stay here: i am proud of myself for that. it hasn't been easy. but i am holding steady. and his true colors are showing.

[hijodeganas]

Don't know if it's much consolation, but you have a massive, solid support group here. He doesn't.

[catnap]

Steady on you are doing a great job.   

[anna58]

Thank you both for your support. Yes, it makes me feel better to know you are here, many of you. And we are all here to be healthier, and our strength is challenged, but we are taking on that challenge.

I notice my self-esteem dropping. I believe this is necessary, oddly enough, for me to peel away a lot of false notions that have propped me up. For example, the attention from this man boosted my self-esteem and felt like it gave me a feeling of belonging.

Nine months ago, I moved across the country. A life-changing event. Everything has changed. And I am in a smaller town with less stress, so there is psychic and physical space for me to listen to what is inside me, to let it rise up from inside. This has been missing in me for many years, or maybe always. There was a time I was on a better path, when I was younger and less affected by my chronic illness.

All of the grief and loss from my declining health and economic situation --I needed something that felt good. And I chose to let this man into my life instead of finding a healthy relationship. It felt good for a while. But I was co-dependent. I wanted something for myself in my life, and this guy was there to provide something, at least.

Now, I need to look inside and build on what is there. Build a life that is mine, even if it is modest, it will be mine. I am starting from the bottom, and feel quite sad.

[hijodeganas]

Wow. Brilliant insights there, seriously. I think you'll look back at posts like this and realize you're a lot further along than you're giving yourself credit for.

I also agree about the self-esteem thing. I think we often have to hit bottom before we can climb back up. Often we have to "break" our emotional fiber in order to allow it to heal and grow back even stronger.

[captainkirkz]

I also agree about the self-esteem thing. I think we often have to hit bottom before we can climb back up. Often we have to "break" our emotional fiber in order to allow it to heal and grow back even stronger.

That's a spot on analysis for me!

Especially when we are involved in what, compared to some is a relatively short BPD encounter. One where we enforce our boundaries pretty quickly and makes it virtually impossible to stay in a longer term r/s. They overstep the boundaries, we reinforce them and it ends up driving us mad because for us, either consciously or subconsciously they are violating our template as to what a 'normal' healthy r/s should be.

This is where the conflict occurs within us. We love them so much but know deep down that it is wrong for us and for them.

A question springs to mind on the back of that.

When it comes to the breaking of our emotional fibre ... .do you think that it maybe be that unconsciously we may sense that we have emotional weaknesses at various points, maybe to the point that is worn down so much it is becoming detrimental to our health and therefore that unconscious sense leads us to seek a way to 'bottom out' our emotions in order to build them back up again but better and much stronger?

[hijodeganas]

Captainkirkz, that's a great question that I wanna answer but I'm on my phone right now, so hold on please!

[anna58]

i don't think we unconsciously bottom out. i think that it's a natural course. whatever my issues are, if they aren't resolved, they stay there. many things won't need to be resolved because they don't eff up my work or family or other major things in my life. but those big issues keep coming around and hitting us. until we resolve them.  and even with the big issues, some of them we never resolve. some become so painful that we decide to make big changes.   that's my theory anyway.

i'm not saint. oy vey.  i think this guy likes that i've set up the boundary now. either that or he is still hoping to weasel his way in to visit. emailing about wishing i were there. or that he were at pet store with me and the dog. he loves my dog. sigh.  he'd like to visit after he finds a place to live in LA, if he does.

so next big decision is whether to let him visit if he does land an apt.

i would be going back on my word if i didn't. that was the best boundary i could keep at the time. the least painful for me. now i may be faced with another decision. i think a visit will be ok since i am much less disillusioned, and the relationship was not a physical one or a "real" one.  but i have to be clear about how long he is allowed to visit for.

ok. thanks to you all.  would like to hear more about your stories... .

captainkirkz?