Does travelling trigger "BPD episode"

[Depression = 72% of members]

I travel infrequently for my job.  In 4-1/2 years I have been away a total of 10 nights away from home.

This last one, however, was a week-long trip overseas.  UBPDw absolutely flipped out.  We fought for days about me going.  It was for work an not optional.  Finding another job which pays as much, with the flexible schedule, and absolutely no travel in my field without uprooting the family is basically impossible.  Besides, for the first time in my career, I really enjoy my job and fairly successful at it, I have no interest in changing jobs for this alone.  Besides, if it were not the travel, it would just be something else.

We fought a week before I left, and I thought I had gotten through to her (actually the stress and bewilderment of this situation caused me to research and find this site).  She goes silent about it for the week, and things seemed to improve.  Literally hours before I left, at midnight she wakes me up, she starts in yelling about the same things.  One last attempt to prevent me from going.  It was basically an ultimatum if I left I would have divorce papers waiting when I returned and she wouldn't let my daughter talk to me while away.

The other odd thing is she demanded I not tell anyone I was going away.  Although she did tell her birth mother, who I presume she assumed would be sympathetic to her position, although BM attempted to set her straight and told her I had no choice to go and to let it go.

As we all know, thing are never "let go", they just "go dormant".

I will have to go again this summer, we will see if I am still married in the fall.  I try to be compassionate and sympathetic to her problems, but I cannot control what she does when I do what I have to do.

So anyway, do other spouses who travel have to contend with baseless ultimatums, irrational guilt trips, and other attempts at control whenever they get "the call" to go?

[tundraphile]

I travel infrequently for my job.  In 4-1/2 years I have been away a total of 10 nights away from home.

This last one, however, was a week-long trip overseas.  UBPDw absolutely flipped out.  We fought for days about me going.  It was for work an not optional.  Finding another job which pays as much, with the flexible schedule, and absolutely no travel in my field without uprooting the family is basically impossible.  Besides, for the first time in my career, I really enjoy my job and fairly successful at it, I have no interest in changing jobs for this alone.  Besides, if it were not the travel, it would just be something else.

We fought a week before I left, and I thought I had gotten through to her (actually the stress and bewilderment of this situation caused me to research and find this site).  She goes silent about it for the week, and things seemed to improve.  Literally hours before I left, at midnight she wakes me up, she starts in yelling about the same things.  One last attempt to prevent me from going.  It was basically an ultimatum if I left I would have divorce papers waiting when I returned and she wouldn't let my daughter talk to me while away.

The other odd thing is she demanded I not tell anyone I was going away.  Although she did tell her birth mother, who I presume she assumed would be sympathetic to her position, although BM attempted to set her straight and told her I had no choice to go and to let it go.

As we all know, thing are never "let go", they just "go dormant".

I will have to go again this summer, we will see if I am still married in the fall.  I try to be compassionate and sympathetic to her problems, but I cannot control what she does when I do what I have to do.

So anyway, do other spouses who travel have to contend with baseless ultimatums, irrational guilt trips, and other attempts at control whenever they get "the call" to go?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[G.J.]

I travel for a living. I'm gone between 12 - 16 days a month. I've been in this profession for a decade prior to meeting my BPD-bf, so he knew what he was getting in to. Honestly, I've found that some guys -- just in general -- have a tough time getting used to my lifestyle. My BPD-bf takes the cake.

He doesn't threaten to break up with me (he knows my career will be around a lot longer than him) but for the first year, he made it downright miserable. He'd get edgy as the day I had to leave approached. He'd be downright sullen and depressed and whiny the night before. He'd try to convince me to call in sick. He'd make wild accusations of me cheating on him while I was gone. Would call and text 100 times a day. And would interrogate me about my whereabouts, who was with me and every detail thereof.

His Psychologist SOMEHOW got him to realize that there was a 100% chance that he'd lose me if he kept this up, and LESS of a chance if he knocked it off. Things gradually improved, and in the last few months I've been traveling less, so that's obviously helped too.

I recently read on here someone else going thru the same thing. So no, you're not alone. All the rationalizing, bending, accommodating, sympathizing and reassuring in the world didn't make an ounce of difference. It's an irrational purely emotion driven fear and I found no way to convince him out of it. It took someone he respected and trusted, telling him like it is, and somehow, that worked... .Still baffles me.

[megocean]

I travel for work only rarely---but a while ago I considered going on a trip with family that my BPD bf did not want to go on---and didn't want me to go either. He was so nasty, cold and depressed when I was planning the trip that I cancelled it. This was several years ago now, and I don't think I would handle it the same way now. I would definitely inform him and prepare him differently---as I can now see how abandoned he felt---but I think there is also a better chance I would go.

[G.J.]

Megocean -- I'm curious... .Why do you think there's a better chance you'd go now? Because he might react differently if you prepared him differently? Or because you wouldn't let his reactions stop you this time?

How would you handle it differently?

Just trying to learn from others' wisdom. I've wanted to set up a girls-only trip with some friends from college, but I've been too afraid to pursue the subject seriously. The other girls have tried to plan stuff, and he always seems dejected and very nervous (but somewhat understanding) and it's always fallen thru, so I haven't had the chance to see what would happen. But the topic is going to come up again in the next few months and I don't know how to handle it. Having the "excuse" of "I have to go, it's how I pay my mortgage" probably plays better than "I'm going out of town for an all-girls-weekend with a bunch of girls you don't know."

Thanks for any insight. 

[Validation78]

Hi All!

   I too have an uBPDh who frequently acts out before, during and after my trips. I thought it would help to discuss is behavior before I went, and to address his feelings and his needs while I'm gone, but that didn't work. Now I just prepare to go, and leave without talking about it at all. He knows it's going to happen no matter what. What I have done though, is to make him feel involved while I'm away. I call at various times, send a text now and then, just to let him know that I am thinking about him. Last time, I even brought something back for him, and that made him feel good, so he says. It let him know that even though I am away, I still think about him. I'm not totally comfortable with having to "baby" him this way, because I want to get away and not think about him too much from time to time. It's my respite, but it has helped, so it seems a small compromise to achieve some peace. Hope that helps some!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[tzwong]

Kind of extreme, but I havebeen away twice over the course of a 5 year relationship. She broke up with me, and found a new BF, and started living with him (different bfs each time) both times.

I found the most telling factor to be that she has not gone to bed alone since 2008. I wonder if that is connected?

[Wrongturn1]

Welcome Tundraphile!  You and I may have something in common if your screen name refers to your pickup truck instead of a frozen geographic area.   

Regarding dysregulation surrounding business trips, yes, I can relate to that.  I typically only travel one overnight trip per month or less, but it still is somewhat of an issue.  Many times I have heard the “don’t leave me!” line on my way out the door to the airport.  My usual response has been “I’ll never leave you and I’ll always love you – be back in a couple of days”, which seems to provide some soothing.  It also seems to help if I call and text her frequently while I’m gone, although it adds further stress to my already-stressful business trips. 

She has told me that she does not believe that I do the right things while I am away from her, and this raises my anxiety level while traveling, knowing that she is sitting at home in a state of misery and imagining and ruminating on all the dastardly deeds that I must be surely committing while on the road.  Ugh! 

But after reading the “Eggshells” book, the “lessons” on this site, and several other resources, I’m really starting to feel better, realizing that 1) I have the power to stop making things worse, 2) I can walk away from abuse, 3) her feelings and emotional state are not my responsibility, 4) I have the ability to make a life for myself that’s worth living.  So hang in there, Tundraphile.  Learn all you can here and elsewhere, and your situation is likely to improve.

[megocean]

Hi G.J.

Yes to both. I think I had a bit of a defiant attitude, not very empathic, when I presented the idea---because the thought of his reaction made me distressed---and a bit angry too, I guess. Also it was ALMOST at the fait accompli level because I avoided letting him know about it for a while, as I knew I would get a bad reaction.

What I would do differently now is talk to him WAY in advance and give him lots of validation re: his anxiety---and reassurance, as needed (such as that we would be in touch while I was away). Then I would go and tolerate his coldness and distancing (which was not abusive, just upsetting to me. And this is a big recent change in ME. I am giving him lots of room to regulate his emotions when he needs that, and not insisting that he act as if everything is OK to make ME feel better. He doesn't have to like everything I do.)

I think I would be happier if I went... .and I would not be trying to rescue him from his feelings or have him rescue me from my feelings about his feelings. Hope that makes sense.

[G.J.]

Megocean -- yeah it all makes a lot of sense and is really good insight. I've become pretty good at managing the situation when it's in a business context (making sure I'm in touch a lot, lots of validation and reassuring, etc) but I still hit some pitfalls occasionally when I have to have a meal with one of my coworkers, but that's been getting better too. But a voluntary social trip still scares me. He's getting better about acknowledging my need for friends, but it's usually better in theory than when it comes to the actual event.

But I was missing the whole component that you spoke to: Not needing him to feel ok for me to feel ok and allowing him to just have his bad feelings, knowing that I'm not truly "causing" them (no matter what he says to the contrary) and that I can still be ok even if he's not ok... .And now having my new "out" of gettin out of the situation if/when it becomes abusive. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

[megocean]

Sure! This is all recent development for me also. Good luck!

[tundraphile]

It looks like another trip will be in a couple of months.  Tomorrow I will know for sure, and will tell her as soon as it is finalized.

Very frustrating and impossible situation.

Weird thing about last time is she was very angry at me that I told anyone (one of my best friends) that she was unhappy with me leaving.  She insisted I not even tell my parents that I had gone.

A couple of weeks later I found out she had called her mother.  I suppose she was expecting a sympathetic ear, although her mother took my side and said that basically I had to go.  Keep in mind my UBPDw certainly never bothered to tell me of this conversation, it was her stepfather that had to tell me.  So we will see how she handles this time, if I had to guess she will insist I not tell anyone, including her mother.

I have a feeling I am going to get some practice in expressing patience and validation... .

[tundraphile]

One more side note.

This trip would be overseas and last roughly 5 days.  Just a couple of days after I return I supposed to go to antoher work-related destination for a week.

But this time it is stateside and at a resort.  I invited her to come and she was very receptive to it.  We were even leaving a day early for one more day as a family before I had to work for the four days.

But something in the back of my mind said to hold off buying the plane tickets.  Now I think I know why, but we have to do it soon.  We will see how she reacts to trip #1.  Hopefully trip#2 makes it more palatable, but I am not holding my breath.

The worst case scenario is that we make the arrangements to all go on trip#2, then she blows up from trip #1 and I have to eat two extra plane tickets and I still have to go on trip#2.  So basically two weeks away and with a UBPDw doubly hurt and angry, and none of the negative feeling reasonable or rational.

[tundraphile]

Overseas trip was now delayed until August.  Told w about it tonight.  From her reaction it may as well have been tomorrow.

[Wrongturn1]

Tundraphile,

So are you still planning to take her on the trip to the resort?

[tundraphile]

We leave this weekend for the business trip.

I am stressed about the week but not the work.  That is the easy part although one of the salesmen I will have to interact with is extremely difficult.  Luckily for me I have experience dealing with difficult people.

What stresses me is how she will act.  I am predicitng completely self-absorbed and demanding.  it is difficult to be validating when all they do is work themselves into a lather right before you have to be somewhere. 

"Why do you have to be there until 5?"

"No way am I going to dinner with those people!"

"I wish I would have never came here!"

"I thought this was supposed to be fun?"

This will be a week to be endured not enjoyed.  I would much rather have a routine week at the office.

[JimNelson89]

tundraphile

Sorry, I thought this was a new thread, but I looked on the date when you first posted was Jaunuary!  I just wanted to answer your first question.  The one in the title of this thread.

It is the first item in the DSM.

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

This is not a trigger per say, but an ongoing issue with pwBPD.

I hope you were not too stressed out on that trip.

[Wrongturn1]

"Why do you have to be there until 5?"

"No way am I going to dinner with those people!"

"I wish I would have never came here!"

"I thought this was supposed to be fun?"

Tundraphile,

Sounds like you know pretty well what to expect... .it's a bummer that she will do her "best" to make the worst of what could otherwise be a nice week.  My advice would be to take advantage of every opportunity to enjoy yourself in spite of her antics.

Did you do the overseas trip, and if so, did that result in any drama?

[spark2]

My exBPD would tell me that any time I got back from a trip I would need to get an HIV test because I was likely having sex with hookers when I travel.

(as I sat there in horror that a person who trusts me enough to live with me just accused me of having sex with hookers - and on top of it, she was okay with it and expected that what guys do - I just need to get tested)

[tundraphile]

Did you do the overseas trip, and if so, did that result in any drama?

The overseas trip will likely be in September.  When I found out the approximate timeframe in April I told her it was coming.  Her complaint she kept repeating on the first overseas trip was "I didn't talk to her about  it".  What she really meant was "I didn't ask her permission".  But if my employer is not going to ask my permission, I cannot ask her permission.  Her answer would always be no anyway.  She demanded to talk to my boss last time and that wouldn't have ended well.

It really isn't up to me if I want to remain employed in my current job.  There are many, many good things about my current job.  But everything comes at a price.  One of those is when you are told you need to meet with a customer that represents 40% of the company's business... .you do it.  It is only once every six months or so.  This is what I mentioned in another thread about conflict being like playing chicken, but on this one I cannot turn the wheel.  With this much lead time I requested a week late in September that would remove as many complaints from her as I could, but feedback is that they will schedule it when they want and it is my job to be there when they want.

None of this matters to her, becuase it is all about her.  In her mind my travel has to be when it is convenient for her, which of course will never be the case.  There will always be something more important in HER life than me actually performing in my job.  It could be a ridiculous as her having a hair or nail appointment that week.  I'm not exaggerating.  It is all a power trip to see how far she can push me.  And if she knows I will be going regardless of her threats, then her goal would be to make me as miserable as possible before, during, and after the trip.

After 14 years of bewilderment trying to understand why she acts the way she does, I "discovered" BPD this winter after my first overseas trip.  Everything fits and she displays many of the dysfunctional traits to varying degrees.  Her background also is perfectly suited to develop a person with BPD characteristics.  She refuses to acknowledge even the possibility there are things she can improve upon.

Frankly, it is exhausting and for the first time since adopting our D7 I am thinking about... .no, wanting... .there to be a radical change even if it is divorce.  It will either be to her or to our marital status.  I am out of patience (one telling thing is our friends always say how patient I am w/ repsect to her).  So perhaps I am no longer L4, but L2.  I find myself shutting down emotionally, and just going through the motions.  The problem is I cannot turn it off and on like a switch as she does.  I try to be close to my D7 in the evenings and weekends, but sometimes if I am completely stressed out and distant from W, D7 must sense this as well.

As many on here know, it is the classic "no-win" scenario they create for you.  

No travel --> no job --> miserable.

Travel ---> BPD spouse even more hateful --> miserable.

So at the moment the plan is to tell her when I find out the overseas travel plans, and that short of one of us in the hospital that morning, I will be on the plane.  I understand that she feels abandoned and hurt and mad, but I will be on that plane.  In this case, I need to protect my career and have a boundary set that I cannot allow her to cross.  Frankly, at this point I don't see the relationship lasting regardless, it is up to me whether I have a job or not at the end of it.

[tundraphile]

Greeting everyone.  An update may be in order.  So grab a cup of coffee and scroll through this.

Summer business trip update

Business trip this summer where I took her went exactly as I expected.  In other words, she blows up 1000 miles from home and I have a choice to either try to keep the peace for another 36 hours until we get back home, or face the wrath of her temper which knows no bounds.  My crime?  I was late getting back to the room on the last day of work by eight minutes.  8 minutes  I had texted her I would be done at 5:30.  5:38 my phone rings with her screaming "WHERE ARE YOU?  GET OVER HERE!"   I excuse myself from finishing up cleaning up our area (remaining work was a one-person job anyway).  Walking back to the resort room she is in the parking lot, in the car I rented so she could do whatever she wanted all week (never went anywhere of course) and she starts screaming again in front of everyone "LET'S GO! I'M HUNGRY!".   I paid for them to fly out with me and lots of shopping to be treated this way?  It basically undid any kind of good will I might have had for her.  I watched my co-workers and their spouses all week.  Their spouses helped them, they realized they were there hanging out a beautiful place to support their working spouses.  It was that moment in the parking lot I realized I would never have that.  In years to come as I look back this might have been the final straw.  As we drove away (to get her something to eat, she was HUNGRY after all), with her screaming at me in the car, in front of D7, not even letting me finish a sentence... .that may have been the moment my mindset shifted from trying everything to make it work to finding a way to extricate myself from a horrible abusive relationship.

But then two weeks later was our "vacation".

Ah yes, what a better way to spend 15 hours than with a mentally ill woman stressed out about seeing her birth father (and his wife whom she despises)?  More than halfway into the road trip, we are in her car, we change places so I can drive after filling up.  She sees a spot of mud on the floormats from my shoes.  She goes absolutely ballistic.  Screaming at how stupid I was for messing up her car (which was new 18 months ago and cost more than her gross in a year).  There was no calming her down, she was in a complete meltdown as she swiped at the dirt like it was radioactive waste.  I made a mistake in that moment.  Actually I made two.

First mistake: I responded to her anger with an angry ultimatum of my own that she needed to apologize or I was turning around and going home.  But this was a bluff, in the instant after that I realized D7 was in the back seat and only a few hours now from the beach.  It would be 500 long miles back home.  I didn't intend to bluff, but knew I wouldn't follow through.

Second mistake: of course this challenged her, and any challenge is a game of chicken (I have another thread this spring on playing chicken in conflict).  She wanted to spend the week in Florida too.  She wanted to go shopping in all the new malls that have the same stuff as in ours.  But no way was she apologizing for anything.  She told me "fine, I don't care if we go home".  My second mistake was not following through, as we left the gas station I silently turned south instead of north.  

An hour later a tearful D7 asked if we were going home.  She didn't know I had turned south to Florida, and we had just driven in silence.  It was at this moment that I admitted to myself that despite trying to protect her from her mother's rages, I couldn't do it 100%.  I'm fallible, and partly responsible for any psychological damage she incurs.  I thought about the business trip a couple of weeks earlier.  I thought when would be the right time to lay out absolute boundaries which my wife will of course ignore.  And I thought about my impending overseas trip and what might happen.  It pains me to think about her little voice coming from the back seat even today weeks later.

The impending blowup, August 2012 edition:

Received confirmation today that the second overseas trip will be in early December instead of next month.  So the first question is if I should just tell her now or wait until it gets closer and the exact dates are known?  I am leaning on telling her tonight rather than waiting.

If I wait, then my "sin" is keeping it from her when I knew.  If I tell her now, my "sin" is going to be ruining her weekend and entire fall and the rest of her life by telling it to her on Friday evening (only partial sarcasm here)

The relationship has deteriorated throughout this year since the last trip.  Partly because as I have educated myself on the joys of BPD, emotional blackmail, and boundaries... .uBPDw senses I know things she has been desperately trying to hide.  Basically that I now have a copy of her manipulative playbook and can try to counter any unhealthy stuff she tries to fling at me.  In theory at least, knowing what to do and actually doing it are not the same thing.

Last time I travelled I expended a tremendous amount of emotional energy trying to get through to her the necessity of my travel.  Of course this was not absorbed and so I was left exhausted and bewildered, she was left furious and resentful, and our D7 only knew that we were not on speaking terms when I left.  Soothing words do not work with her.  She rolls her eyes at any sort of validation.  She has no respect for me or the career that lets her live the lifestyle she otherwise couldn't begin to afford.  She lives in her own world where others needs are opposition that must be stamped out permanently and maliciously.  I owe her all of this stuff, including all my free time and now apparently my career.  FOG is her M.O.

I don't party or gamble.  I don't have any real hobbies or friends anymore.  I've never hit or threatened her with physical violence.  All I do is pay for nearly everything around her so she can spend her income on herself.  And yet, I am the devil, a weakling, a "psycho" to quote her.

This time around if I handle it the same way as before I basically haven't learned anything this year.  So a different approach is needed.  But I have to know exactly where my limits are.

I know where her limits are: she has none.  She will stop at nothing to get what she wants.  And what she wants is total obedience and someone to make the pain in her soul to go away.  But it is impossible for me to do either of those things.

So we will see how tonight goes.  This may be my last one on L4.

1) When the travel dates are confirmed in December.  I will go.  Period.  There is no threat, no manipulation, no sweet talk that will change that fact.  I won't waste another whole day arguing with her either.

2) I can call my daughter on Skype overseas and I will be allowed access to her.  Period.

3) We will disagree in the future, but she wil not be allowed to scream and yell and curse and throw tantrums.  When this happens in the future I will take D7 and leave until she calms down.

After those boundaries are set, I expect WWIII.  I might record it just for my own protection (legal in my state).

I'm assuming hostile threats and lots of name calling and screaming.  That will lead to #4 & #5.

4) She has been demanding a pool (as proof of my committment I assume, but I had agreed because I thought they were $25k, not $60k all quotes are coming in).  Pool is off the table indefinitely.  Ironically it would be better for her if we do split up to have the $$$ in the bank to split up rather than in a hole in the back yard.

5) Her newest demand is that in leiu of a pool, she wants a new house with a community pool.  Only problem is she can't find one she likes as well as the one I pay for unless it costs another $100-150k (isn't it funny how a compromise to her entails getting something even nicer?).  Any talk of a house is also off the table indefinitely.  No way am I going to be under an even bigger house payment.  I already know that I can maintain our current household if she were gone, even if I have to pay child support.  This is because I already do these things plus pay for most of her stuff too, and cover her checkbook when she goes over nearly every month.  But adding another $600/month or more would be tough.  I am as "all in" as I am willing to be.  I've done the numbers, and it is a rare case of me being better off financially divorced rather than single.

So once #4 & #5 are given I would fully expect the talk to be "I'm going to a lawyer Tuesday! And you'll lose everything! And you'll never see D7!" (she will be wrong on two of those, assuming she actually follows through and calls an attorney)

How do I respond to that?  What I want to do is call her bluff, or if it isn't a bluff get this over with.  What I know is that the status quo is miserable and I can't change her, only my reaction to her.

And one last one, if the conversation goes how I expect?

6) If she actually files for divorce, it will happen.  I will make sure it is completed once it is started.  She doesn't get a chance to change her mind in two months when she realizes this fantasy land post-divorce where she still has the lifestyle and D7 all the time is just that... .a fantasy.

[tundraphile]

double post

[mreid2005]

I've been dealing with the knowledge of BPD only a few weeks, but the effects of it for four years.

I've just read every word of what has been written over the past few months on this thread.

And it sounds like from what I've learned you are actually finally at the point of fully enacting the tools.

However some things in the last couple posts brought to mind BPD with a solid bit of NPD mixed in.  May look to see if there are other tools that need to be brought into play when that is the case, or if it is the same set of tools.  I'm to new to know all the subtleties.

When you tell her about the trip, keep it just the facts, the why the company needs you to do it is irrelevant.  

Where, What, When, don't bother with why, because she already knows why.

You may attempt to validate her feelings nothing else

... .I understand YOU feel very upset/anxious at me leaving town... .

If you start to say any buts in your validation then your justifying.

Do your darndest to not JADE at all!

only set boundaries you are absolutely sure you aren't bluffing on.

try not to presume she will do or say anything, and head it off before its said, that will just become a challenge for her to do exactly that to test you.


Then I think the more knowledgeable posters will encourage you to disengage if or when she starts to rage, or dysregulate(hope this is the right term).

If I understand right, when done properly it may seem worse before it gets better, you know where you stand now, and intend to be firm, you will probably get a stronger response than ever before.  This is why I suggest not laying down the law on on how she reacts, if I understand the process at all, handling this properly could get you on the path to an extinction outburst, however, the storm will probably be chaotic so try and disengage, and remind yourself over and over that your wife is sick, and this is just another sympton.  And when the fever is done spiking something different may be on the other side.

best of luck! and we are praying for you!

[yeeter]

Hey Tundra!

Good to see you again, and thanks for the update on the situation.   

A couple thoughts pulling from my experience:

First - your boundaries and limits are very reasonable.  Getting into deeper financial obligation will only make things harder, and in the long run will not resolve anything to do with the relationship (there will be other rounds of bigger better houses after that one)

Second (actually first - and top priority) - Take care of your Daughter!  Dont subject her to the chaos and arguments.  DO take her and leave at the first sign of conflict.  Just do not allow your daughter to be subjected to a hostile, high conflict environment - by just not participating in it.  Refuse to engage, and take time outs as needed to prevent it.  (its hard, and you are going to have to swallow the urge to respond)

For me - I did start the divorce process.  In hindsight, it did a couple things.  First I worked through the outcome scenarios of divorce.  This was very useful (I even had a second home purchase in process, and full detailed budgeting, and a coparenting plan prepared).  But working through it gave me some information to make decisions by. 

Then, as far as the relationship, it made it completely obvious that it was no longer a bluff.  In the past my wife would take every argument to the extreme (to win it), and take the whole thing to a level that I just wasnt willing to go.  I used to say she would lock into winning an argument and drive it right off a cliff.  She knew I wouldnt take it there, so by default she knew she would win by doing it.

But filing for divorce changed that dynamic.  And it flipped it even.  Now it was her that wanted to stay in the marriage and it was me saying 'we arent compatible and its unhealthy for us and our children'.  The balance changed - which gave a basis for a restart.

Resetting the relationship dynamics is pretty traumatic for both sides.  You are learning about boundaries and what you will or will not do - and are not allowing her tantrums to change your mind into doing something that you dont want to.   

Stick to it.  Do come back and validate her feelings and her right to feel how she does.  But dont try to own those feelings, and dont change your boundaries just to appease them.  Give it a little time to see how she responds.  Im still married, 15 months after having filed for divorce.

 

[yeeter]

So once #4 & #5 are given I would fully expect the talk to be "I'm going to a lawyer Tuesday! And you'll lose everything! And you'll never see D7!" (she will be wrong on two of those, assuming she actually follows through and calls an attorney)

How do I respond to that?  What I want to do is call her bluff, or if it isn't a bluff get this over with.  What I know is that the status quo is miserable and I can't change her, only my reaction to her.

btw - you respond to that one with SET.  Of course you have a right to your own actions.  And I can see how upset you are, we arent getting along and of course its upsetting.  But I love you, and together would like to figure out a way to make this relationship work.

She might not hear it in the moment.  But its speaking your truth.  (its important to speak your truth here - for her to hear it)  She may very well go see a lawyer - but as you said, the status quo is miserable and you will accept that direction if she takes it there (although it is not your first choice - you can no longer FEAR it)

[Wrongturn1]

Tundraphile - thanks for the update.  Would like to hear how things went when you let her know about he December date for the overseas trip.  Sounds like an awful environment for your D7 to be subjected to.  If your W ends up filing for divorce, it might not be that bad of a deal for you (I mean I'm sure it would be an ugly and expensive legal battle for a few years, but after that you and D7 would likely be in a much healthier overall situation).

[tundraphile]

Here is the update: there isn't one.

It pains and shames me to say this, but I have chickened out of telling her.  That in the end is the reason.  When I wrote my last post on 8/31 I rationalized not telling her that day because:

1) It was Labor Day weekend and we had both sides of our family in town (although thankfully not staying with us).

2) My parents were staying at their vacation house through 9/10, so it would be better after they leave.

3) I didn't have the exact travel dates yet and considering they have moved twice now, certainly could again.

4) I was still working through my feelings and wanted to go into the conversation completely resolved.

5) If possibly our D7 wouldn't be anywhere near to witness the likely meltdown on the part of uBPDw.

So I had it in my mind to tell her on a convenient date to remember, 9/11.  Obviously it has came and past, had the perfect opportunity late last night.  :)7 was asleep.  And yet I didn't tell her.

All of these reasons above are of course convenient ways of putting off the inevitable.  I have to do it sometime, and it should be sooner rather than later.  Being completely honest, I am scared of what she will do and her temper.  I am scared of her attempting to destroy my relationship with D7.  I am disgusted with her and her behavior.  I dread the nasty comments, dagger eyes, "convenient emergencies" she will throw out to control me over the next days after telling her.

That is the truth, and today I'm really struggling with accepting my personal boundaries have been eroded so far.  I am having a moment of realization that I am becoming or have become one of those henpecked people beaten down by an abusive loved one.  I know one way out (divorce), but cannot bring myself to do it.  I still have hope for her, although now I realize that is probably baseless.    

Validation simply doesn't work for her.  She sees it as patronizing and turns it around that since I can understand that she is feeling a certain way, I should do what she wants.  Sensitivity to her feelings is seen as weakness and an open door for her to dictate everything.  

In a way I want this stupid trip to be here now, not three months from now.  I know telling her it is coming without dates only means another fight when I get the confirmed dates of travel.  I also worry this gives her three months to plan some diabolical crisis for that time period.  I actually see these business trips as good things though, as they force me to do something about this situation.  They are a catalyst for change in my life and our relationship.

[tundraphile]

Yesterday, as I attempted to psyche myself up for the impending tantrum, I spoke to a friend whom I trust and who went through something similar a few years ago.  This person today is happily remarried and is able to relate their experiences.

They told me something I never had considered before.  Most of us will never get their Ah-Ha moment from our dysfunctional spouses.  We are never going to be there when they suddenly have an epiphany that they have been so wrong and we have been trying to help them.  And in the unlikely event that they do eventually come to understand this, chances are they would never disclose that to us anyway, as we will likely be far away by that time.

This itself is a powerful realization for me.  I can say "I can't control her, I can't change her" and so on.  But did I actually believe what I said?  I'm not sure now.  Perhaps I was just lying to myself, and deep down wanted to create a scenario in which my uBPDw suddenly "gets it".  Even though I know there are no magic words to break through four decades of denial and dysfunctional thought processes in her brain, I still searched for the right incantation and POOF, she sees the path she is on only leads to heartache and misery.

It is profoundly naive to believe that I could precipitate this reaction with a few words.  Not to mention manipulative in its own right.  Again this is something I am struggling with today and trying not to beat myself up about, but rather integrate this newfound knowledge into my thoughts as it relates to her.

Ironically maybe I was the one with an Ah-Ha moment yesterday... .

[yeeter]

It pains and shames me to say this, but I have chickened out of telling her.  That in the end is the reason.  

Hi Tundra.    

This is significant to understand about yourself.  And as you know, FOG begins with the letter F - for FEAR.

I have been in exactly these shoes many times, and still am to some degree.  

All I can say that is once you overcome these fears, other things start falling in place.  For me - it took detaching and filing for a divorce and going through the complete picture of life after marriage.  This allowed me to see that my life would go on, and paint a picture of exactly what it would be like.  

Then you mix in your fear of what it will do to your relationship with your children.  Oh boy can I relate.  An ultimately, in a strange way, this is what kept me in the marriage.  

You ARE going to need to figure out what it will take for you to stand up to her.  To be able to speak your truth - and let the fallout occur in whatever way it does (it will escalate, and then in the long run will get better).  A part of this for me was to challenge myself to live my life (not hers).  Become a rock of steady behavior revolving around your value system.  Your wife may not like that - and ultimately she may leave or try to destroy it even.  But your Daughter will see it and take notice.

Courage is being afraid, but doing it anyway.  And its a learned trait - practice does help so if there are some little things you can practice with first it will give you confidence to tackle the more significant items.

 

[yeeter]

Most of us will never get their Ah-Ha moment from our dysfunctional spouses.  We are never going to be there when they suddenly have an epiphany that they have been so wrong and we have been trying to help them.  

This itself is a powerful realization for me.  I can say "I can't control her, I can't change her" and so on.  

But did I actually believe what I said?  I'm not sure now.  Perhaps I was just lying to myself, and deep down wanted to create a scenario in which my uBPDw suddenly "gets it".  

A really significant step towards 'radical acceptance'   

[tundraphile]

Last week my travel plans were confirmed second week of December.

Waited until Friday night to tell her of the impending trip.  Originally it was going to be September, and when I told her that in April she went ballistic.

A couple of hours before I told her she had received scores from a recent competition our D7 finished second out of over 80 kids.  Looking at the scores she said "So that's where she screwed up" at one of the scores (D7 was not within earshot)

I am observing this growing fungus of expectations of perfection for D7.  It appears if D7 is perfect, then uBPDw is perfect too.  I am doing my best to manage the situation while minimize damage to D7's emotional well-being.  Her comment about the scores was said in such a way that I knew within minutes heaps of guilt would be placed on D7 about her performance, even though it was a subjective score.

The fight was on with my first calmly said comment, without a hint of sarcasm or intended malice (I feel like an actor, only not acting instead remaining calm)

"I wouldn't put more pressure on her."

"I CAN HANDLE IT!"  (instantly furious I would dare question her)

"Are you sure?"

"YES JACKASS!"

And with that she threw the remaining mail at me and stomped into the house.  Immediately left to go an appointment with D7, returning a couple of hours later.

Then the predictable Silent Treatment started.  In the past I would try to get her to talk to me about issues.  Since learning about BPD, or at least trying a new approach to her, ST was fine.  She was home just long enough to change for a walk, and of course to show me that she wasn't going to speak to me.  She NEVER wants D7 to go on a walk with her, but that night she was mother of the year and taking D7 with her.  Obviously another attempt at hurting my feelings and probably some version of "letting him think about what he's done".  Not surprisingly she ate dinner with her afterwards with no mention of eating to me.  While this is undeniably rude, it was not unexpected and in the grand scheme of things rather meaningless.

But those few minutes where she was home and making sure I knew she was mad and not speaking to me was as good an opportunity as any to tell her.  As she stomped around I calmly said.

"I have to go to <country> the second week of December."

"WHAT?"

"I have to go to <country> the second week of December."

She left.  No other reaction, although she obviously knows now.  

The rest of the evening was more ST.  

In the morning it was more of the same.  In the past I would have tried to get her to talk to me, got frustrated at her childishness, and eventually been mad.

Learning more this year however, I just let her be mad, and didn't even acknowledge her immature behavior.  If I had something to say to her, I said it.  While I didn't try to make lengthy conversation with her, ignoring her behavior seemed to confuse her.  The game is changing and she is used to making the rules.  I was not timid or subtly cowering as I approached her.  If I had something to say ("I took the dog out... .the bathrooms are clean upstairs... .isn't D7's dancing really improving) I just said it.  Sometimes I got a "yep", sometimes just a look, but thos efew times we had to communciate over the course of the evening I did even if she wouldn't.

More of the same Saturday morning, but I could tell my refusal to play her games was wearing her down.  As if cracks were starting to form in her icewoman persona.

So then all at once, Saturday afternoon, it is like a switch is flipped and she is Chatty Cathy all of the sudden.  Going on as if nothing had happened and she hadn't been an incredibly rude, hateful, abusive harpy for the past 24 hours or so.

Very strange.  We are back to our distant and superficial existence rather than downright hostility.  I don't think I am in a "Pull" phase.  I'm not sure she is capable of Pulling anymore.  For her lack of Push is her Pull.

Either way, now she knows and cannot claim that she never knew.  I will have to bring this up again in a couple of months (obviously before I leave).  I still anticipate a meltdown with plenty of threats, but this time the difference is me.