Professionals passing the buck again... sleepovers

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am now facing yet another quandary again, professional inaction.

Background:  Upon separation, my ex was custodial parent in our temporary orders.  I filed for divorce and she continued doing everything she could to block my parental contact including obstruction and repeated false allegations.  Parenting investigation and custody evaluation reports weren't favorable for her but court did nothing but move on to the next item on the checklist.  On Trial Morning she could delay no longer and was at last ready to settle.  My condition to avoid starting the trial was that I would be Residential Parent in the Shared Parenting.  (Both lawyers insisted RP meant nothing but I knew better, I would be the school's primary contact.)  Shared Parenting of course failed and ended about 3 years later.  A new report and the GAL said custody would go to me but GAL left parenting time equal saying son was okay with the current time (ex's prompting worked) and ex would be more stable if she got CS.

In effect, every few years I got more, not due to her parenting  but due to her continuing obstruction and refusal to share and cooperate.

Son has had some sleepovers, but always with me since ex interrogates son and she is paranoid about abusers and hyper-vigilant.  Well, he's older now and had a sleepover with his best school friend.  She raged about it after the weekend when he went back to her.  In her view, she is The Mother and has to be informed to get her approval or else.

Problem is, she then called the parent and raged she would come with the police to get Her child and take them to court.  The parent was so shocked that when I was called, the parent was on the verge of tears.

GAL:  Nothing to do, I can't stop her from acting out.  Maybe his therapist would decide to it was bad enough to take it to court and ask for supervised visitation until she behaves better.

Me:  Yeah, like that would ever happen.   She made innumerable unsubstantiated allegations during the years and the therapy agency never took any thing to court.  Now that he's not a preschooler or under 10 yo, why would they now of all times decide to do something?  However, that gave me an idea, I'd check with a different T who has been known to appear in court when necessary.

Other T:  Nothing to do, let her act out.  Just "inform" the sleepover parents - and police - in advance concerning what might happen.  No reason to reduce mother's equal time with Her child.  (Yes, I said I couldn't imagine me a father having equal time if I had continued doing all the things she a mother kept doing!  No impact.)  Otherwise, consult your lawyer.

Me:  Full circle, what would a lawyer do that hasn't been done before during the prior 6 years?

[ForeverDad]

I am now facing yet another quandary again, professional inaction.

Background:  Upon separation, my ex was custodial parent in our temporary orders.  I filed for divorce and she continued doing everything she could to block my parental contact including obstruction and repeated false allegations.  Parenting investigation and custody evaluation reports weren't favorable for her but court did nothing but move on to the next item on the checklist.  On Trial Morning she could delay no longer and was at last ready to settle.  My condition to avoid starting the trial was that I would be Residential Parent in the Shared Parenting.  (Both lawyers insisted RP meant nothing but I knew better, I would be the school's primary contact.)  Shared Parenting of course failed and ended about 3 years later.  A new report and the GAL said custody would go to me but GAL left parenting time equal saying son was okay with the current time (ex's prompting worked) and ex would be more stable if she got CS.

In effect, every few years I got more, not due to her parenting  but due to her continuing obstruction and refusal to share and cooperate.

Son has had some sleepovers, but always with me since ex interrogates son and she is paranoid about abusers and hyper-vigilant.  Well, he's older now and had a sleepover with his best school friend.  She raged about it after the weekend when he went back to her.  In her view, she is The Mother and has to be informed to get her approval or else.

Problem is, she then called the parent and raged she would come with the police to get Her child and take them to court.  The parent was so shocked that when I was called, the parent was on the verge of tears.

GAL:  Nothing to do, I can't stop her from acting out.  Maybe his therapist would decide to it was bad enough to take it to court and ask for supervised visitation until she behaves better.

Me:  Yeah, like that would ever happen.   She made innumerable unsubstantiated allegations during the years and the therapy agency never took any thing to court.  Now that he's not a preschooler or under 10 yo, why would they now of all times decide to do something?  However, that gave me an idea, I'd check with a different T who has been known to appear in court when necessary.

Other T:  Nothing to do, let her act out.  Just "inform" the sleepover parents - and police - in advance concerning what might happen.  No reason to reduce mother's equal time with Her child.  (Yes, I said I couldn't imagine me a father having equal time if I had continued doing all the things she a mother kept doing!  No impact.)  Otherwise, consult your lawyer.

Me:  Full circle, what would a lawyer do that hasn't been done before during the prior 6 years?

[JustSaying]

You say inaction, they say due caution.

Frustrating, to be sure. I think it's universal. The risk to a professional for overreaching or acting in haste probably far exceeds the risk for inaction or excess caution. I'm pushing the same hurdles for X's willful non-involvement in reunification therapy meant to help her with D!

Our custody agreement, for what it's worth, has specific rules regarding sleepovers being allowed. If the wording would ever help, give a shout... .

[Rose1]

This is part of what is so difficult with these situations - they have no real concept of what is appropriate and if something will suit their needs then so be it. There are a couple of good possibilities:

Your son is growing up and is now being directly impacted (made to look bad in front of his friend) which should help him understand even more that his mother is the problem. Always providing of course she doesn't convince him that her behaviour was justified. I guess careful discussion on your part re the appropriateness of anger to solve a situation that could easily be resolved otherwise, etc may help - ie Why do people get so angry? What lies behind that behaviour and is it acceptable?

As kids hit their teens they really do not like their parents acting out like this and he may withdraw from her more. He is also getting to the age where finally maybe others will take notice. Does he have a school counselor?

On the downside - so you inform the potential sleepover parent that having your son there is likely to trigger a raging police event. What an incentive! Some might be prepared to put up with that, most will see it as an unwelcome intrusion on their family life. So your son is isolated by his mother from his friends - likely the whole point of the exercise.

I guess one can hope that another parent eventually calls the police on her 

My ex continued to threaten right up to my D26's wedding - but then he threatened a lot and didn't often deliver. I once had to deal with someone he had just made a death threat to - very difficult since I was still somewhat in the fog. Suggested police but they wouldn't do it. Most people probably wouldn't, just withdraw from the potential.

Sorry you are continuing to deal with that but I suspect the next few years will slowly get better. The big issue of course is enmeshment and his acceptance of her behaviour as he grows up. We unfortunately are also dealing with some of that, depending on whether the kid was abused, white or black.

Take care

Rose

[beyondbelief]

My X has threatened to call the police several times.  My response is to call them if that is what she wants to do and whatever happens happens.  So far that has been enough to prevent her from making calls.  I realize this is a bit different than your situation.

About the only thing that comes to my mind is to go to court and seek a change in orders to prevent both parents from contacting anyone except the other parent, law enforcement or a mandatory reporter when they had concerns about a child's safety.  If your kid's friend's parent would be willing to testify and you could show it was impacting his life then it might happen.

[david]

So if I understand correctly, mom is alienating kid from his friends. I would expect several parents to distance themselves and their child once they get a sample of mom's insanity.

Maybe you can talk to the police before the next sleepover and explain that it is your custody time and she is a psycho. If she does make an issue of the sleepover you can then use the police as witnesses. Don't know if that would help but just thinking out loud.

[catnap]

How did your son react to all of this?

[Matt]

Just brainstorming - never been through this exactly... .

Why not direct your attorney to file a motion to change the schedule?

The argument could be:

* Mother has a long history of inappropriate behavior - possessive of Son and aggressive toward Father.

* Mother lost primary for good reasons (and cite those).

* Equal parenting time has been unsuccessful - Mother's behavior continues to be a problem - cite extreme examples such as the sleepover fit.

* It is in Son's interest to continue to see Mother regularly.

* It is in Son's interest to have friends, sleepovers, and other normal activities without Mother's interference and chaos.

* Son should be full-time with Father;  supervised visits every weekend with Mother but no overnights til she proves she can behave.

* All CS should go to Son's college fund.  (So ForeverDad won't be helped financially, but the money will go to Son not Mother.)

* When Mother believes she has discovered the underlying causes of her destructive behaviors, and obtained appropriate treatment, and shown that she can act right over a long period of time, she can ask the court to end supervision and resume more parenting time.

I say, "direct" your attorney to do this, or if necessary, find an attorney who will follow that direction.  I know you have worked through this attorney because he is (to put it bluntly) cheap, and that has worked pretty well.  But if he is not willing or able to do what you decide to do - if he is passive and doesn't offer a path forward - he just wants you and your son to continue to be subject to this abuse - then he is like a mechanic who won't fix your car but tells you to live with it - you go to the next mechanic, tell him the problem, and he fixes it (or at least does what he can do).

You've been here a long time, FD, and helped many others through many situations, and surely learned a lot doing that - not everything an attorney knows, but I'm sure your judgment on this matter is better than most attorneys.  If you decide this behavior is unacceptable, then don't accept it - that is, your ex's behavior, and your attorney's behavior too... .

(If you don't change anything, then nothing ever changes.)

[Exonerated]

Hello ForeverDad,

I would like to second Matt. You would need to expand Matt's sequence to include a timeline of all the things that needed to change due to your ex's behavior, then with this history as your backup, I think the case could be successfully built.

Minimum results could be, just a caution to her about future rages and threats. Better results could include, your child support going to a college or trust for your son. At this point, you are in a position to sit in the driver's seat. Up until now, she has been driving (you crazy).

Cheers,

Exonerated

[Matt]

At this point, you are in a position to sit in the driver's seat. Up until now, she has been driving (you crazy).

Super-good point!

How many times have we encouraged other members not to be passive and not to stay on the defensive, but to decide what they believe will be best for the child - consistent with the local guidelines - and make their best case, knowing they might lose, but at least then they'll know they didn't defeat themselves?

Passive is usually not effective!

Always reacting to the other party's aggressive behavior - always being on the defensive - you've seen that it takes a long time for things to get better, and you pay a heavy price (and so has your son).

Going on the offensive - not aggressive in the sense of unfairly attacking the other party, but assertive - putting forward a solid, practical plan that will work better for your son, with supporting arguments and information as Exonerated suggests - and directing your attorney - giving him the plan and asking him to implement it based on his knowledge of the law and how things work where you live - is much more likely to give good results than waiting for your ex to straighten up and fly right!  (Or, apparently, waiting for the GAL or T to step up... .)

[ForeverDad]

It's "par for the course" for son.  She periodically rages, has done so for as long as he can remember.  Of course, generally not at him, he's the golden child to be protected, so officialdom doesn't see anything actionable to do about her parenting.

A couple times earlier this year I picked him up from daycare after time with his mother when she had raged at me on the phone and he was there in her apartment, and the first thing he said in the car was, "My mom's insane."  Again, not actionable.

Next is to update my attorney, likely even consult with another to determine whether I should change.

[david]

Our S13 says mom is insane too. He used to be the golden child until he started to grow up and think for himself. She punishes him for all kinds of things now but nothing that a court wants to hear. All she is doing is pushing him further away.

[ForeverDad]

Well, things have been happening.  I went for a session with a T, previously described as "other T", and then my son went.  I remember T didn't mind at all that my son fiddled with various knickknacks.  I was concerned T would wonder why he didn't sit still, but T said it was okay.  At the end when I mentioned maybe his mother like to bring him, I got a definite No.

Last week when I went to pick up my son from his mother's summer camp, she told me to stay out or she'd call the police.  So she was in a 'mood' again.

If it didn't happen so often I'd wonder whether maybe she sensed I was meeting with my L?  Papers would have been filed and served earlier but court said I had to pay my half of court fees still unpaid.

2005 separated, temp order as alternate weekend dad

2006 filed, temp order as alternate weekend dad

2008 final decree, I'm residential parent, equal time in shared parenting

2009 still conflict so file for Change of Circumstance process seeking custody

2011 alimony ends, I get custody, GAL wants equal time kept so ex gets CS = more stable

2012 (now) file for more parenting time in schedule modification and end or reduction of CS

Prepare for fireworks later this week... .

[Matt]

So have the papers now been filed?  Do they have to be served?

[Her Mama]

Go get her FD!  I can't believe she hasn't gotten the hang of this thing yet.  Then again... .

I'm glad you're standing your ground here FD.  She cannot continue to try to run your life through your son.  I hope the court sees this clearly and does what is right by you and your son.

[ForeverDad]

Well the fireworks were somewhat muted a month ago.  When I went to pick my son up a few days before starting vacation, I was juggling multiple appointments and so I called my ex to say I was picking him up from her daycare a half hour early and she retorted, "The exchange is at 6 pm! Follow the order!"  So I grumbled to myself and coped with the situation.  Surprise, surprise, after we got back from vacation she picked our son up from my daycare an hour early!  Typical... ."You live by the rules but they don't apply to me!"

So this week we were to appear in court for a pre-trial.  Naturally, lawyer's secretary told me this afternoon that they just received a fax request for continuance for ex's lawyer.  Sigh.  They had over a month to ask for a continuance but waited until less than 24 hours beforehand.

Of course, as always a continuance can only benefit my ex.  Among the things I'm asking for is a recalculation of child support.  Delay for the case in court means any $$$ reduction is delayed.

[Matt]

Will you oppose the delay - call her out on it?

[ForeverDad]

Delay avoided.  The court decided they'd have a telephone conference instead, what a simple solution.  Of course, ex's reported health situation in the motion for continuance wasn't the real issue, probably her attorney couldn't come to the county or he didn't want to admit to not being prepared, so the conference call should suffice.

[ForeverDad]

Next hearing... .December.

[ForeverDad]

Ah, if there's one thing I can depend on in life, it's a disordered person's sense of overwhelming entitlement.

Background:  This is 7 years after we separated, 5 years after the divorce was final and 1.5 years after I got custody.

This week our son has an overnight field trip at a regional children's camp.  This is his last year in elementary school and his first school-sponsored overnight class field trip.  They'll even have an after-dark hike re-enacting the Underground Railroad which was active in my state 150 years ago.  I paid the costs, even bought a sleeping bag for him, sent him with a camera, etc.

The field trip starts on my time but at sunset her scheduled time starts.  Predictably, ex is against it.  I did inform the principal, secretary and teacher, but they weren't concerned.  I just got a call from the school secretary that she plans to go and remove him from the camp.  Whether and when she will do that, I don't know, but that's what she told the school.

Lawyer knows and isn't concerned at all that I sent him off on the field trip when ex opposed it.  I'm guessing we'll let it play out, we already have a hearing scheduled in mid-December.

[Matt]

I just got a call from the school secretary that she plans to go and remove him from the camp.  Whether and when she will do that, I don't know, but that's what she told the school.

Who plans to remove him from the camp - Ex or the secretary?

Have you talked with your son about the possibility that his mom might come get him?  So he won't be blind-sided if that happens?

Does Ex still have an attorney who could intervene to moderate her behavior?  "Ms. ForeverDad, I think our case for December will be weakened if you pull this."

[motherof1yearold]

Oh holy cow.

First of all, it bothers me so much that she called the Mother/Parent of your child's best friend. If this continues he is at the age where he will be embarrassed by his Mother's "antics" like that one! Also, I think it will look horrible for her if she removes him from his school field trip! I'm sure he has been looking forward to it and WANTS to be there,but because Mommy isn't in control she is going to go tear him away. Is the school not tired of this crap?

What is her problem with him going on a field trip? Besides the fact she isn't in control. - And on what grounds would the police actually work with her and remove him? Actually any 10/11yo would be embarrassed if that happened to him,and probably angry and resentful at HER.

I hope she hasn't burned bridges between your child's best friend and parent, after that phone call that left her in tears. Clearly the parent must have realized something is OFF with her. The worst part is this is only hurting the child and,like others said, alienating him from his friends and normal socialization.

How does your child feel?

[ForeverDad]

Update: My son's back.  I had dropped him off at school before school began, sleeping bag, extra coat, extra shoes, double everything and a camera.  The kids were gathering in the gym and things were going well when I left.

Oh holy cow... .  If this continues he is at the age where he will be embarrassed by his Mother's "antics" like that one! Also, I think it will look horrible for her if she removes him from his school field trip! I'm sure he has been looking forward to it and WANTS to be there,but because Mommy isn't in control she is going to go tear him away.

That's almost exactly what the school secretary told me a few hours later after mother had contacted the school, "I asked her not to embarrass him by bringing the police with her when she went to fetch him from camp."  She added, "I bit my tongue because I knew saying anything more wouldn't have been heard."

What is her problem with him going on a field trip?

Although she has many traits of BPD and NPD, I believe enough to qualify for that description, she fits all the criteria of Paranoid Personality Disorder.  She doesn't trust anyone except herself.  She only accepts me as father because the court has ordered her to.  (Before we separated she more than once told me she'd disappear and I'd never see him again.)  But in her mind accepting that I have parenting time is as far as she will go.  Everyone else is seen as "probably abusers".  Even before we separated she told me virtually not to blink with son outside or else abductors lurking in the trees and bushes would snatch him.  And don't take him to the stores because abusers are there.  And don't let him go to daycare because abusers are there too.  And she was going to home school him (isolation) because of the abusers at the schools.  Her justification for her extreme perceptions was the occasional news report.

That's why my post-divorce order specifically stated, at my insightful insistence, that daycare is equivalent to school.  Otherwise she would have succeeded in commandeering my parenting time while I worked.

Is the school not tired of this crap?

Yes but what can they do?

Something similar happened 4.5 years ago when he was within weeks of graduating from kindergarten.  I had recently used my leverage (she wanted to avoid trial) to become the Residential Parent for School Purposes in the final decree.  He had been in her school until then.  So as not to disrupt his first year in school, I applied for him to stay there until the school year had ended. But she kept creating scenes at school when I was having daycare pick him up, she felt entitled that if I wasn't there then she had the right to take him for a couple hours until I could personally get him from her.  Order said otherwise.  So after one incident the school principal told me the school board

had denied my application for Open Enrollment which I had filed 1.5 months before.  I was given one day to enroll him in my own school district.  They let him come back one more day so he could say goodbye to his classmates.

Why did they do that?  Because they had the ability to say, "Go take your problems somewhere else."  If I hadn't been RP living in a different district then they wouldn't have been able to do anything except suffer with her posturing and conflict.

So since he's already in my school now and I'm RP, they can't avoid having contact with her.  I think they'll be relieved when next year he goes to middle school.

Back to my story... .

The next day I called the school and found out the principal was there at the camp Monday evening.  Whether she was scheduled to be there, I don't know, but I feel my ex's threatened arrival was a factor.  My son said someone talked mean to his mother.  Hmm, I wonder who?   Anyway, she waited until our son finished the night walk (a la Underground Railroad) and she took him home.

By the way, previously Sunday night I had offered to trade away one of my nights and take her Monday night so he could stay at camp, but she flatly refused.

School and son both concur that he didn't go to school the next day.  He went with her to her work.  My understanding was that any children not on the field trip were still expected to go to school.

My lawyer said while her time is technically hers, it won't look good for her in court that she put her parenting time rights ahead of his school related activities with his peers.

[theodore]

she wanted to avoid trial

Why?  Is there something in your story that I can use to have the same outcome in mine?

[ForeverDad]

Most divorces end in settlements.  Courts like that for several reasons.

• Ex-spouses may be less likely to feel they "won" or "lost".



• Generally cheaper.



• Reduces the court's backlog.



• Can't be appealed.

However, for us in high conflict cases, settlements are not all roses and lilac blooms.  A settlement usually means "until the next time we meet in court".  Sometimes it happens when we weigh various factors and determine which choices are best for us.

Typically the high-conflict spouses or parents will settle only if they feel they've "won" or if they feel they have no choice and they can't delay or obstruct any more.  In my case, she delayed the case for two years (a typical length is one to two years) because the temporary order was in her favor, an early resolution would have reduced her parenting time and custodial power.  Meanwhile, the court and lawyers explored every option and resource - mediation attempt, parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference attempt, etc.  Then on Trial Morning, a few minutes before trial was to begin, she decided to say she was ready to settle.  Though she did look as the least likely parent to walk out with custody, it was not a slam dunk, so I settled.  But after three Contempts (one mine and the others hers) I filed for and eventually got custody.

The disordered spouse's leverage is blocking, obstruction, chaos, blaming and false allegations.  Your leverage is increasing insight and long term perspective.  If you have any material leverage such as home ownership, etc then be very careful not to "gift" it away without you using it to your best advantage.  Disordered people may be disordered but they're generally not dumb when it comes to your money.

It's a marathion, not a sprint.  Bill Eddy's Splitting (high conflict divorce survival handbook) is invaluable.  So is the peer support here.  Read, share, ask, learn - and you'll find you can make more informed and more confident decisions.

[motherof1yearold]

Ohhh dear. I didn't think she would actually remove him,but she did! That is severe impairment. I  don't know why we all get surprised at the actions/behaviors of pwBPD (or paranoid personality) but oh my. Wonder why she didn't take him to school the next day... ?  Anyway the whole thing I think would look really bad for her in December. 6 years and she ain't stoppin'!

[ForeverDad]

There was a raging call Xmas eve.  My time was to end at 9 pm and hers begin, but my daycare closed a few hours early, so a relative picked our son up and I caught up with them a couple hours later.  We all had dinner together and the kids were playing computer games too.  It was a smooth exchange at 9 pm but within an hour I got a raging phone call:

"… He has a mother, you knew I was off and it’s a holiday!  Why didn’t you f**king send him with me?  I’m going to take you to court and I’m going to tell the judge how you prefer somebody else taking care of him rather than his own mother!  He has a mother!  He needs to be with me!  If you cannot take care of him you send him with me!  You btch!"

No, I didn't know she was off.  No, there is no ROFR.  No, she can't take me to court, we're already waiting for our scheduled court hearing.

To be fair, I have to report that yesterday's exchange went smoothly, she made extra effort to be nice.  Kind of late IMO.

[GaGrl]

Oh, she just needed a "reason for the season."

[Matt]

Would it be a good discipline to work toward, that when it's clear she is upset and raging - even mildly - and not having a conversation with you - I'd estimate right about the moment she used the f-word - <Click!>.

That's what I did.  It was hard and took time to get into the habit, but it worked.

You are still, after all these years, putting up with stuff you shouldn't.

[theodore]

but it worked.

Boundaries.  It seems to be the one thing that pwBPD respond to fairly consistently.  The key is to enforce them consistently.

[ForeverDad]

Well, my supposedly simple motion to modify parenting time nearly 7 months ago is still dragging along.  Why am I not surprised?   We were to have a hearing in late January.

A week before the hearing the GAL filed the report, then two days later ex's lawyer sought a continuance.  My lawyer didn't see any reason to oppose it, though I didn't like it and told my lawyer so saying it didn't bode well, not just for the delay but that I worried there must be some strategy behind it, more than just trying to prolong her child support a little longer.

Well, 'someone' filed a motion for an in camera interview.  I doubt this is for me or my ex, it must be for our 11yo son.

Typically, it's a little young to be interviewed by the court, it is too easy be seen by the child that saying anything would in some way be choosing one parent over the other.  And my son doesn't want to be put in a position to choose.

Two years ago when I sought custody the GAL was originally assigned.  Within a week, son had changed from wanting to be with me as much as possible to "equal time" and the GAL was swayed by that and so though I got custody, parenting time stayed equal so ex could get her child support.  Now I'm seeking majority time due to incidents since then, her periodic emotional outbursts and entitled actions haven't changed since we separated 7 years ago, but I get more than a feeling she's trying to sabotage again.