POLL: Would you say you became codependent?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My deal is I'm addicted to addictions so it is hard to not 'live and let live' and give him a call.  My brain can think up all sorts of ways to reconnect.  It doesn't like being denied, it doesn't like hard things.  This is difficult.  I have to fight against what will make me temporarily feel good but is so bad for me in the long run. I'm really trying to put my well being first, which is a change for me.  I kind of like it but a part of me is really mad that I wasn't taught this growing up, to not get in so deep in the first place.

[Rose Tiger]

My deal is I'm addicted to addictions so it is hard to not 'live and let live' and give him a call.  My brain can think up all sorts of ways to reconnect.  It doesn't like being denied, it doesn't like hard things.  This is difficult.  I have to fight against what will make me temporarily feel good but is so bad for me in the long run. I'm really trying to put my well being first, which is a change for me.  I kind of like it but a part of me is really mad that I wasn't taught this growing up, to not get in so deep in the first place.

[Faded]

I believe im not codependent but ive certainly had a taste of it.

Before i met my ex, i wasnt looking for a r/s, wasnt bothered about a r/s, wasnt seeking anyone for one night stands. Was very comfortable in my surroundings, happy with the social circle i was in. Early 20s travelled some of europe and also spent 4 months in asia. Considered myself culturally sound, a good person with morals, happy with life in general.

After my ex i consider myself to be just that same person once again but with a few more lessons under my belt in terms of relationships, emotions, feelings not only for myself but for others.

I was a fairly wise and sound character before my ex, im now even more educated and wiser after my ex. Im happy and comfortable being single but also open if i bump into anyone should they take my fancy and vice versa.


It wasnt a comfortable ride or a pleasant journey coming out of that r/s where i became some-what codependent and accepting of abuse upon myself. The positives though are the lessons learnt, the knowledge that i take forward, the healthiness that is mine mentally, physically and emotionally. Sadly, others will continue their destructive ways as they havnt got the capability to be able to recognise 'what is healthy' or are unable to process that maturely if they do recognise their own destruction.

[GreenMango]

Here is what it means for me. Your healing is your healing. It is what it is and it takes as long as it takes. In the end you have to do it yourself, in your way, in your time.

Thanks, Complex. That's sort of what I was getting at. I find the definitions, labels, DSM, cluster B, Axis this and that to be a rabbit hole for me. I wish it was helpful, but it brings out my perfectionism, I think.  

When I first came here I had spent the previous year immersing myself in that "rabbit hole" of BPD... .it was ridiculous.  A phD in BPD... .not great unless you are getting paid for it.  First trying to fix the relationship, then trying to figure out what the heck happened.  Gain some understanding. Time would have been better spent learning about my problems more.

I totally understand the need to understand what the happened.  It's natural we are looking for answers to what seems like riddle.  I would hear the advisors and mods pushing looking at us.  While knowing the facts of BPD is important there is a "rabbit hole" in it.  

Simple reason... .we can only control our own healing and the answer doesn't lie in BPD.  The minute we turn that focus back onto us is the minute the healing begins.  Our actions, our feelings, our intent, our plans, our hopes, our values, our boundaries, our issues this is where things get better.

You are doing alright... .take as much time as you need.  

[ComplexOpus]

Thankfully when I found out the name of the rabbit hole / abyss that was keeping me from coming up with an effective strategy to deal with the rapid and illogical cycles it only took me a week to learn all I needed to know and put it all together.

For me it was a lynchpin. The thing to crystallize the issue. No need to chase down the rabbit hole to figure out how to stay or how to fix my dstbxBPDw.

It was enough to know what was happening and why. Understanding her was never the point and if you think about all the posts on here. It is a futile exercise.  All I needed was information to modulate my reactions properly.  It is all about how I react. Not what she does.

Hmmmm that all about me thing again. Why go down the rabbit hole "Alice"?  Wonderland?

[truly amazed]

Hi

Labels ... .Just love them.

After reading this thread I went no I was not codependent on the ex, but then I went and sought out the actual definition of it ... .

Codependency (or codependence, interdependency ) is defined as a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as in an addiction to alcohol or heroin); and in broader terms, it refers to the dependence on the needs of or control of another


If you have been in a relationship with someone with BPD, simply put, I am  sure you were controlled or manipulated so the  question is somewhat mute. I am sure my ex has BPD as are the DOC and Psychiatrist with 30 years in the field. I am very sure she at times manipulated me like putty and at times controlled my actions and responses via various means from attack to push pull to abuse to what ever.

By the above I am not sure there can be any Non's who actually had a BPD partner who at some point were not Codependent.

Maybe I am reading this wrong ?

These rabbit holes as GM put it make my head hurt. If in some interaction you have with say a salesman who has some PD he gets you to buy something using what borders on some form of abuse or gas lighting, but is phrased a selling technique, does that make one co dependant ?

If I looked at this from another perspective and what was troubling me during the relationship, the issue of being controlled or manipulated, I wasn't even really aware of it whilst I was in the relationship. It happened and I am now well aware I was being controlled and manipulated and I suppose on some levels I was aware of the control being told at times what I was wearing was not good or who my friends should be ect ect, but this was not the overriding problem of my own relationship or why I stayed. Maybe it was ? Makes my head spin ... .I was manipulated to staying despite the abuse because I was codependent ? Maybe, but end result same thing.

Same ownership of my own role in the RS. Admitting I was being manipulated or controlled in some way is a no brainier when your in a BPD relationship. Push pull, love you hate you, idolize and then demean. Did I stay in part because I was being manipulated or controlled ? Yep, but lack of boundaries on my own part far more important, lack of knowing what the hell BPD was more important. Lack of maturity and thinking if I gave love and patience and kindness the abuse would stop or change more crucial.

Have my head down that rabbit hole and if I think about this issue too much I might get back on that treadmill or the spinning circle with the mouse in the cage and go round and round and round and round.

Maybe someone can shed some light on this and help ?

Is it possible to have been in a BPD RS without being codependent ? even for a short while as some have been ?

[Bandita]

I would say that it takes a codependent to want those incredible highs of BPD idealization.  I would think emotionally healthy people would not be attracted to it since the self esteem is intact.  It's people that are hurting that appreciate this kind of attention.  And that will put up with the devalue, in hopes of a return of the idealization.  I remember stbx telling me that he dated many women prior to me but hadn't made a connection like we did.  I visualize women running screaming into the night after a date with him while I was thinking, oh yeah, I like that guy.  

LOL!

I've been thinking about this A LOT, too funny! I had an identical conversation with my ex, and have seen where he's been and just recently where he is now. His friends always seemed surprised when they found out I was with him. I was the 'best he'd done'. I know now there's a real reason for that--anyone with sense would've run immediately.

I also realized through this that I always like them a little 'off' and I'm not sure why. I want to learn to be a discerning girl too.

[bb12]

Great question

I would definitely say that co-dependents are the worst affected by these break-ups

Our self-esteem is already very poor and these BPDs confirm the long held fear that we are damaged, worthless etc.

My exBPD had a few r/s after me but they all sacked him. I know now that these new partners probably had healthier self-esteem and would have spotted the red flags

I believe the extremity of our reaction is in direct proportion to our own poor mental health as much as anything else

I look back on my life and can spot a few mini-crisis that were perhaps indicators of the massive fall I had coming

I have had ruminations and obsessions about a few other people in my life as they pulled away or expressed a reduced interest in me. But I hadn't dug in as far with those people. This time I was in it for longer and genuinely thought they needed me so much that they could never leave me. It was toxic and weird, but it was a strong bond. Or so I thought.

Knowing that there were precursors to this devastation makes me more resolved to work on co-dependency and schema more than examining BPD any longer.

I have learned what I needed to about NPD/BPD and further information will not help me now. At some stage, we need to look at our own psychological short-comings and work to change what we can. I must admit, this is very hard and often quite scary for how close it can bring us to the edge of sanity. But it's work we need to perform.

BB12

[Bandita]

I look back on my life and can spot a few mini-crisis that were perhaps indicators of the massive fall I had coming

I have had ruminations and obsessions about a few other people in my life as they pulled away or expressed a reduced interest in me. But I hadn't dug in as far with those people. This time I was in it for longer and genuinely thought they needed me so much that they could never leave me. It was toxic and weird, but it was a strong bond. Or so I thought.

Knowing that there were precursors to this devastation makes me more resolved to work on co-dependency and schema more than examining BPD any longer.

I have learned what I needed to about NPD/BPD and further information will not help me now. At some stage, we need to look at our own psychological short-comings and work to change what we can. I must admit, this is very hard and often quite scary for how close it can bring us to the edge of sanity. But it's work we need to perform.

BB12

I feel you completely. I knew I was in a bad place that prefaced this ugly r/s I found myself in. I in fact see where my own BPD traits contributed to my downward spiral into an abusive situation--I knew it was 'off', I knew I was initially reaching to make it what it was not (and conveniently forgot that fact along the way, convincing myself I was overthinking details and blaming my own shortcomings for producing the red flags). Ironically, I have been able to pick myself up by the bootstraps in certain avenues due to this experience in a way I was not able to on my own for some time prior. I think I needed out of a rut--the shock of it all woke me up in a way a healthy loving r/s might not have, unfortunately. It was a blessing and a curse.

I also don't want to continue to ruminate on my ex's dysfunction. I hate, HATE leaning into this pain I keep living in, knowing what I know now. My clinging immaturity wants an out, to be innocently reckless again and find a quick fix. But I've reached an impasse: grow or stay stuck. I don't thank him for this. But I guess I should be thankful I've busted out of what was bringing me down when I met him.

[bb12]

spot on Bandita: a strange gratitude emerges after a few major realisations about our part in the dance.

It almost feels that knowing what I now know, I can't make the mistakes I have been repeating in some sort of loop for a long time.

It is a kind of wake up, as you say.

For me now though, the change in myself cant come fast enough. I want to take this lesson as far as it goes, you know?

I want to be sure I learn as much as I can so as to guarantee myself a smoother ride from here on in



bb12

[BlushAndBashful]

I'd have to say IMHO that's not a 100% blanket statement that covers everybody. There certainly does seem to be a ginormous group here that agrees that they had codependency issues. And I can see a link between the needy, clingy pwBPD's and the serious rescuer nons.

I honestly don't think I had codep traits in the 30+ years of my life before my pwBPD. Once I met him, I did slowly change because the 99% good outweighed the 1% hiccups. And then the hiccups got worse. And then I did the whole frog-in-boiling-water thing. And it got to the point where I can say I was/looked like/was acting like a total codep. Hell, I was. Everything I did was about him and his recovery and keeping him stable. I didn't know all the BS was really who he was- I thought it was an easily fixable little glitch.

Maybe if he were low-functioning, I would have seen some different red flags that would have made me run for the hills. But there was no cutting, no instability, no rages, no clinginess.   I often wonder if our level of codependency corresponds to our pwBPD's level of functioning.

I will, however, take ownership of a lot of "wishful thinking" or just plain old bad choices.

[careman]

I have learned what I needed to about NPD/BPD and further information will not help me now. At some stage, we need to look at our own psychological short-comings and work to change what we can. I must admit, this is very hard and often quite scary for how close it can bring us to the edge of sanity. But it's work we need to perform.

BB12

My T says 'enough' of BPD and her. Throw away journals, books and web. Look inside and FEEL. Go in, meet and be with yourself and whatever moves in you. FEEL what's there and answers will come.

I say easier said than done. T smiles... .

As the 'understanding junkie' I am, I seem not get enough of it, so I hang around in books, here, a new dumpee-friend... .

This thread is good for me though. It twists my nose a bit but maybe not the 180 degrees needed.

[andywho]

1.  Would you say you are codependent?

2.  And I am just curious as to this:

How long did it take you to get out? 

Just wondering if the non-codependents have a lower threshold for bull pucky then a codependent like me.

1. I must say i have become insanly codependent. I ended up living a life where everything was about her. Spent every day thinking about how i could make her feel good so that i could feel good (keep her from blaming me for what she is not happy with).

Everything i did or was gonna do i asked for her approval.

I dont know if i was codependent before her, hard to tell.


2. Im working on becoming independent now... .but its real hard. Especially since im doing it alone. She is resisting and is not comfortable with the newer me.


Andy

[once removed]

hi sheepdog,

i dont consider myself a codependent. to be sure, i have traits, but it just doesnt check out to me. i dont know if it really works this way, but i think that if anything, i was 'more codependent' earlier in my life. i say that because i believe ive been with a few girls with BPD, and over time i adjusted to it, i guess. in other words, the idealization had a more powerful effect. the affection was addictive. i would believe and internally the garbage one of my particular exes told me, and id believe it was me, and id do everything in my power to change it, with no effect but further losing myself.

someone put it to me really well on this board a while back, suggesting that i kind of look for... .not necessarily "project relationships", but someone i could "teach or impart some reason upon." thats accurate, and its a codependent tendency, id say.

the difference is, though largely buried, i feel more or less intact, self esteem wise. with the ex that led me here, i WAS uncomfortable, i WAS turned off, and i even, for the first time in my life, at least managed to try to break up with her, probably a thousand times in the relationship, which was one of my mistakes. but as far as self esteem, one of my best friends is codependent. the kind of childhood background that is usually present with a codependent just isnt there with me, and frankly, im not really sure where i developed the tendencies i have. i think it was, as suggested to me, a "confluence of events". you date a crazy person, odds go up youll date another.

its also kind of difficult to sort out what i rationally know and believe, and what my body interprets. i dont think im the answer for anyone. ... .but i act like i am. i can give you a great picture of a healthy, happy, normal relationship, but its clear to me that until now, my mind has equated how much garbage im willing to tolerate, with how appreciable i am. and ill be damned if a pwBPD isnt great at stoking that, telling you how great and patient you are, how sorry and remorseful they are, how much better they want to treat you, etc. i also really like to promote schwings theory that, essentially, the whole blow out fight followed with a really touching make up is a very addictive dynamic, you feel each time as if your relationship has matured and made progress. and for YOU it has. but for your BPD counterpart, such things are impossible.

one of my major errors was also that it doesnt seem like my straw will ever snap. i kept waiting for it to, and knew someday it would, but id move the goal post back every time she crossed a line.

so no, i dont think 100% of "nons" are codependent by any means, however im willing to bet every last person who has been with a pwBPD for a significant amount of time certainly has some traits, perhaps some stronger than others. but probably EVERYONE has "some traits". and truthfully, so many of us stayed for noble, albeit misguided reasons. i could list off about a hundred verses in the bible that i still have trouble reconciling, in the sense of "would i have done anything differently?"

[bb12]

My T says 'enough' of BPD and her. Throw away journals, books and web. Look inside and FEEL. Go in, meet and be with yourself and whatever moves in you. FEEL what's there and answers will come.

I say easier said than done. T smiles... .

As the 'understanding junkie' I am, I seem not get enough of it, so I hang around in books, here, a new dumpee-friend... .

This thread is good for me though. It twists my nose a bit but maybe not the 180 degrees needed.

OMG careman. We might have the same therapist! LOL

I am doing schema therapy now: finding the thought behind the feeling and then challenging the thought

so weird to admit it is hard to FEEL. I really have no clue to do as he says.

The reading indicates we blocked feelings as part of our own childhood trauma. i know the key to all of this is in address that, but I'm really bad at it.

And I keep going back to understanding as well

BB12

[Robhart]

Codependency is not always a constant.After my wife died  I met & subconsciously thought I could fix my BPD(not knowing she was a BPD) because I couldn't fix my wife's illness.

I notice as I get older,have learned about BPD,have got used to living alone, I'm not as, or maybe not even codependent at all.

It is shaped by a lot of factors from birth on.

We can learn from  our  experiences and lessen codependency & maybe even eliminate it with our knowledge of ourself. (This site  has been a huge factor in this)

[sm15000]

There was a poster on Leaving board last year, I cannot remember the name. Had a r/s that was about 1 year or less, with all the signs we all talk about re; BPD and the dance we do with them. That poster sounded just exactly like all posters, and she was grieving the loss of the r/s just like us. She was questioning herself, like us, but she moved through the process pretty quickly. It was like she was revisiting what she knew was healthy and true already, rather than visiting new concepts for the first time. Her own self care was important to her already. So her process seemed easier and shorter. I don't see her here anymore, she took what she needed, supported herself and gave some good support to others, and moved on.

Yeah, sometimes I do think I should have moved on more by now. . .I feel a bit stuck sometimes.  But my r/s was for 13 years (been out just over a year, NC 4 months) and my ex was also a HF person who didn't rage, sulk, do the silent treatment etc etc. . .it was far more covert but when it came out in the end hit me like a ton of bricks and I have been left with countless questions and no answers. . .and that takes some processing   I agree with Mauser, I 'felt' codependent with him at the end. . .helpless, fearful of losing him, didn't think I could cope alone but I dug deep.

I think it's more personal issues that has made this even more difficult.  I'm 48 and personally have found it difficult to now find myslef single.  I am also unemployed at the moment and have far too much thinking time, and other worries that all contribute.

[Finished]

I am not what I call a "traditional co-dependent".

I don't have a pattern/history of co-dependent relationships. Prior to this relationship, I didn't have problems walking away from unhealthy situations. However, due to circumstances that occurred in my private life during the relationship I became overly dependent on my ex for everything which lead to co-dependent behaviors on my part. The longer the relationship progressed, the worse my co-dependence became.

It's now a year out. The situations that lead to the co-dependence have passed. The relationship has passed. What is left is a stronger, updated version of myself from prior to those four years. Someone who can and does walk away from unhealthy when he sees it.

I wonder if there is such a thing as "Situational Co-Dependence" as opposed to "Ingrained Co-Dependence"?

I'm fairly certain that mine was more situational than anything else. Doesn't mean that lots of self work and therapy haven't been needed. I still did the co-dependence thing. I still had to heal myself from it.

[scooby]

I am codependent in some ways and not in others, just due to experiences and growing out of some of it through therapy.

I think it also tends to depend on how I am feeling and other things that are going on.

(Most of the time I am strong, able to keep it together, and completely content being alone or being in a casual relationship with boundaries.  If things are stressful at work or with my children or with my BPD mom, I tend to get clingy with my relationship because I feel wimpy at the core when other things are falling apart around me).

I think feeling vulnerable resorts me back to a child around a BPD mother, I start feeling lots of difficult negative things that I don't like to feel or revisit.  Sometimes I with I could just forget my entire childhood and start all over from scratch to erase all the bad learned memories and behavior.

[careman]

My stbx and I dated  for 5 years before we  really committed.   We reycled a lot. After we broke up the last time before we committed, I dated a LOT. Lots of first dates. Few second dates. I just could not meet or find a gal that would  give me the connection that I had with my  BPD girl.

I just wanted that connection again, I dont know it it was codependency or not. My stbx wanted, demanded, committment. I finally gave it to her but she could not handle  it. Now, 1.5 years later  and facing a divorce, I  feel like a fool in going back to her.  I should have continued dating and found someone  more normal.

nobody

We all should of done that.     Maybe we were seaching for a dysfunctional connection and normal just didn't do it for us.  I think that was/is my biggest issue.

Reading about courtship and relationship models stemming from attachment patterns, I have come to understand that I (ambivalent attachment & codependent traits) want to reach the 'final destination' of interdependence in a relationship really fast.

Healthy people with healthy boundaries let people in step-by-step, and let themselves take their time. And the ultimate proof of acceptance and letting someone in all the way, is opening up to have sex. It can be perceived by a guy like me, as her being uninterested.

A BPD with their lack of boundaries, is 'open' for a deep connection right away, and have a short pathway to engage in sex. This fits perfect with my 'courtship fast-track wants and needs'.

I believe now that fast-tracks and strong passion is a if a long-term healthy parthership is sought for.

/Careman

[Suspicious1]

1.  Would you say you are codependent?

- Hmm, not especially. I have some traits, but my T doesn't think I am and I don't fulfil many of the criteria. I'd say I can be in some circumstances, but I wouldn't categorise myself either as codependent or a caretaker.

2.  How long did it take you to get out?

- The relationship lasted 18 months from start to finish, but things seemed perfectly normal and reasonable to me until nine months in (I'd been split black around 4-5 months in but I had put it down to a disagreement and misunderstanding - it was only with hindsight I realised what it was). So the first time I knew something was BADLY wrong was 9 months before I left him. After that incident, which was splitting black and jealous rage, I decided that the previous 9 months had been ok so I'd keep an eye on it and leave if it happened again. I didn't click that he had BPD until 3 months after that (i.e. 6 months before I left) when he discarded me again, and at that time I myself was having an emotional breakdown due to being abused by my ex husband and learning my mother was terminally ill. I just didn't feel able to resist the recycle, and I felt I badly needed the support even though I knew it was unstable support. Everything just coincided for me at a time I didn't feel strong enough to resist the enormous charm attempt. When I regained my strength I walked away.

So in short, from realising something was badly wrong with our relationship, it took me 9 months to leave it. If it hadn't been for my own circumstances, I'd have left 3 months after things went wrong, during the second discard.

I think this is just down to my character - I attach very strongly to people, and find it very traumatic to detach, so in order to get through the aftermath I need to *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was treated badly, that it would never have got better, and that it was the right decision. If there's any doubt I torture myself about the fact that I didn't give it enough of a chance, and I'm likely to keep going back.

[Suspicious1]

Oh, also I've always found that in the past, it's taken me between a third and a half the length of time a relationship has lasted for me to get over it. I've found this relationship *by far* the most painful to move on from, but again I think that's to do with my current circumstances. For some reason I seem to be moving quite slowly through the process this time, but I'm still only just over three months out, so guess I should give myself a break. I think the difficulty is that I'm trauma bonded, so it's not like a straight-forward breakup. I do feel I'm making good progress though, and if things carry on this way with NC I expect to be completely over it by the end of the year.

[livednlearned]

The title of this thread could've been "do all nons struggle with bad boundaries?" Because if you're a little bit codependent or a lot codependent, what does that really mean? I found it more helpful to think about the way I manage boundaries (or don't), and to focus on those trouble spots.

The following is from a book called "How to be an adult." There's a section called "Maintaining Personal Boundaries" that includes this checklist on boundaries in relationships.

When your boundaries are intact in a relationship, you:

1. Have clear preferences and act on them

2. Recognize when you are happy/unhappy

3. Acknowledge moods and circumstances around you while remaining centered (live actively)

4. Do more when that gets results

5. Trust your own intuition while being open to others' opinions

6. Live optimistically while co-working on change

7. Are only satisfied if you are thriving

8. Are encouraged by sincere ongoing change for the better

9. Have excited interest in self-enhancing hobbies and projects

10. Have a personal standard that, albeit flexible, applies to everyone and ask for accountability

11. Appreciate feedback and can distinguish it from attempts to manipulate

12. Relate only to partners with whom mutual love is possible

13. Are strongly affected by your partner's behavior and take it as information

14. Integrate sex so that you can enjoy it but never at the cost of your integrity

15. See your partner as stimulating your excitement

16. Let yourself feel anger, say "ouch!" and embark on a program of change

17. Act out of agreement and negotiation

18. Only do favors you choose to do (can say no)

19. Honor intuitions and distinguish them from wishes

20. Insist others' boundaries be as safe as your own

21. Mostly feel secure and clear

22. Are always aware of choices

23. Are living a life that mostly approximates what you always wanted for yourself

24. Decide how, to what extent, and how long you will be committed

25. Protect your private matters without having to lie or be surreptitious

(the above 25 points define "self-parenting"

When you give up your boundaries in a relationship, you:

1. Are unclear about your preferences

2. Do not notice unhappiness since enduring is your concern

3. Alter your behavior, plans, or opinions to fit the current moods or circumstances of another (live reactively)

4. Do more and more for less and less

5. Take as truth the most recent opinion you have heard

6. Live hopefully while wishing and waiting

7. Are satisfied if you are coping and surviving

8. Let the other's minimal improvements maintain your stalemate

9. Have few hobbies because you have no attention span for self-directed activity

10. Make exceptions for this person for things you would not tolerate in anyone else and accept alibis

11. Are manipulated by flattery so that you lose objectivity

12. Keep trying to create intimacy with a narcissist

13. Are so strongly affected by another that obsession results

14. Will forsake every personal limit to get sex or the promise of it

15. See your partner as causing your excitement

16. Feel hurt and victimized but not angry

17. Act out of compliance and compromise

18. Do favors that you inwardly resist (cannot say no)

19. Disregard intuition in favor of wishes

20. Allow your partner to abuse your children or friends

21. Mostly feel afraid and confused

22. Are enmeshed in a drama that unfolds beyond your control

23. Are living a life that is not yours, and that seems unalterable

24. Commit yourself for as long as the other needs you to be committed that way (no bottom line)

25. Believe you have no right to secrets

(the above 25 points define "co-dependency)