Sharing what helped me to detach - normal vs disordered healing

[careman]

Hi all !

Thought I'd share what made a difference to me in detaching from the bond with my uBPDxgf. This came about in sessions with my T, a 25 years experienced specialist in BPD.

Normal vs disordered healing



During our r/s I had no conception of BPD or PD or being hurt in a toxic r/s. That knowledge came after the final breakup. T said to me

T : 'it seems your have been viewing her (xuBPDgf) as a normal person in process. Ie that she would go through her process and come out more stable on a new platform'

ME: yeah, right. And I was supported in this view from friends saying 'give her time'... .etc... .

T: 'well... .she's disordered and it will just continue'

ME: so there is no self-healing taking place?

T: No. For self healing to take place, an enough developed loving adult needs to be in place, but it's not in her. You have it, but not her. Normally the loving adult grows with it's task to care for the inner child. You can do that but not her. It'll just continue

ME: Can my love and care for her 'heal'

T: No unfortunately not. It can fill her temporarily, but it evaporates quickly. She primarily needs to learn to live with her handicap, to acquire coping skills in specialized therapy.

ME: What about going into the pain, meet it and heal that way. As I have done with my stuff.

T: Risk for a BPD is that it gets much too strong and a psychosis breaks out, and risk for suicide. No. Coping skills teaching, not doing the psycho-diving.

I got really sad hearing that 'trap' of hers depicted. Felt for her despite all the sht.

/Careman

[diotima]

Sounds like a good T to me. She said it straight out. You can't fix her; only she can fix herself and it is hard. Nothing wrong with having compassion for her.

Diotima

[myself]

Reminds me of how sharks just swim and swim and never stop, devouring what's in front of them. In these cases, also devouring themselves. Without much looking back, except to acknowledge how dark the waters are that keep them swimming.

[heartandwhole]

Amazing stuff.  So helpful.  Especially the part about diving too deep potentially causing psychosis in pwBPD.  That really rang a bell for me.

Thanks so much for sharing Careman! 

[careman]

Amazing stuff.  So helpful.  Especially the part about diving too deep potentially causing psychosis in pwBPD.  That really rang a bell for me.

Thanks so much for sharing Careman! 

Thanks for appreciation. I'll forward to T 

[ksport]

My T told me my H does not live in the real world, nor do rules apply to him.  Careman, you explained this very well to me.  Thank you.

[careman]

Reminds me of how sharks just swim and swim and never stop, devouring what's in front of them. In these cases, also devouring themselves. Without much looking back, except to acknowledge how dark the waters are that keep them swimming.

Myself ! I like the shark metaphor, and yet so sad:

Escaping/running away from the black void that surrounds it, preying on its way, searching, searching, searching for the light, maybe there, the next fish might contain the light... .lost in darkness fantasizing about finding the rescuing light.

It is so sad to see the 'BPD trap'

/Careman

[Tausk]

thanks so much.  I've heard and read this in other posts and my T told, me as well, but it was reading you post on Monday morning that helped me breakthrough.  I cried for three straight days.  Mourning mostly for my ex and letting go of the anger and resentment.  I always thought that she choose to be unempathetic and sociopathic.  In fact, she doesn't have a choice because she has no other tools other than survival response.

It's like being and taking it personal that a starving child tried to steal food from you.  And it's asking a child with down's syndrome who's getting beat with a belt, if she understand how much the beating is hurting your hand? 

She just didn't have the capacity.

So I've been grieving for her, and the loss of what should have been a magnificent human, who is reduced to survival.  Next, grief for my and my lost dreams.

[forgottenarm]

Reminds me of how sharks just swim and swim and never stop, devouring what's in front of them. In these cases, also devouring themselves. Without much looking back, except to acknowledge how dark the waters are that keep them swimming.

Best analogy I've seen in a long time, myself.  So apt.

Careman, this thread really hit home as I've been thinking a lot about my ex's chances at improving through therapy recently.  His ex-wife is seeking a court-ordered psych eval and I've been hoping hoping hoping that it will lead to help for him, but also worrying that the pressure of the trial will drive him deeper under instead.  Reading your post helped, even though it seems to suggest the latter.  So very sad . . .

[daze]

Thank you for posting. 

[Take2]

It is.a great way to think about it... .

But makes me want to be there even more when I think about him like this... .

[careman]

thanks so much.  I've heard and read this in other posts and my T told, me as well, but it was reading you post on Monday morning that helped me breakthrough.  I cried for three straight days.  Mourning mostly for my ex and letting go of the anger and resentment.  I always thought that she choose to be unempathetic and sociopathic.  In fact, she doesn't have a choice because she has no other tools other than survival response.

It's like being and taking it personal that a starving child tried to steal food from you.  And it's asking a child with down's syndrome who's getting beat with a belt, if she understand how much the beating is hurting your hand? 

She just didn't have the capacity.

So I've been grieving for her, and the loss of what should have been a magnificent human, who is reduced to survival.  Next, grief for my and my lost dreams.

S's Piano !

I understan how you are feeling. Three days. It's hard. Sorry about that. We've all gone through tough times. And yet happy for your break-away.

So saddening to see the entrapment - just trying to survive. And then one's own's dreams, and the discontinuation of the good times, that sublime feeling.

But there is also hope in the dark pit. I realized during posting elsewhere that... .

... .it is all in myself:

That 'sublime feeling' was my feeling felt by me in my body, so obviously I'm capable of feeling that, and hence I can feel it again. She triggered it and made me discover it, but there must be other ways to get it. Projecting a dependence for evoking that feeling onto her creates pain since she left. Separating her from my feeling creates hope, and almost a kind of explorative adventure.

Realizing that that feeling is mine to explore, uncover and unleash frees me from the hook to her, and instead I can see I'm carrying in me a since long hidden treasure for me to find and set free.

/Careman

[careman]

Reminds me of how sharks just swim and swim and never stop, devouring what's in front of them. In these cases, also devouring themselves. Without much looking back, except to acknowledge how dark the waters are that keep them swimming.

Best analogy I've seen in a long time, myself.  So apt.

Careman, this thread really hit home as I've been thinking a lot about my ex's chances at improving through therapy recently.  His ex-wife is seeking a court-ordered psych eval and I've been hoping hoping hoping that it will lead to help for him, but also worrying that the pressure of the trial will drive him deeper under instead.  Reading your post helped, even though it seems to suggest the latter.  So very sad . . .

Saddening indeed. And at the same time for me (I understand you're in another place pursuing the r/s), it helps to detach, by seing the real her, as opposed to my fantasy about her. Realizing I was in love with my own fantasy, projected onto her, I see my part of the craze, and therefore start to take ownership of my part of the party.

/Careman

[careman]

Thank you for posting. 

It is.a great way to think about it... .

But makes me want to be there even more when I think about him like this... .

Our pwBPD are different from us in several ways. Their maladaptive/dysfunctional behaviors and feelings is run by the illness/disorder - BPD script.

And we feel strongly about them and act lovingly and caring, because we are run by a functional personality script.

/Careman

PS Ur welcome to browse my other 'sharing' threads elaborating on the above.

[careman]

 .

[afterdeath]

Back to the shark metaphor. I believe a shark dies if it stops swimming. Just as the BPD would if it stopped defending itself. Interesting comparison indeed.

[Let it Be]

What a great post.  I loved the shark metaphor.   My son was married to a BPD.  She became unhappy with the marriage and started cheating.  The end of the marriage went fairly quickly but while they were married they started and coached a softball team that both of their daughters were on.  His by a former marriage and hers by a former marriage.  My s (probably naively) thought that he would continue to coach this team.  This week she sent him a text and said that he was no longer a coach and that his daughter (my gd) would no longer be on the team.  She sent a note to all player's parents that she had two new wonderful experienced coaches and that my s would no longer be a coach.   That she would be so mean to hurt a 14 yo girl in this manner is so typical BPD.  I do at this moment feel like my son and my gd were devoured by this woman.   She used my s to get out of her ex husband's house but now she has moved on and how much hurt she left in the wake is of no consequence to her.  

In many ways I am relieved that this last contact with her has been excised as well as she is truly a very ill person and to have her out of my granddaughters life has to be a positive, but in the mean time we deal with the hurt of a 14 year old being cut from a team just because of a divorce and my s losing something that he poured a great deal of the last 3 years into which was coaching and managing this softball team.  

[Tausk]

What a great post.  I loved the shark metaphor.   My son was married to a BPD.  She became unhappy with the marriage and started cheating.  The end of the marriage went fairly quickly but while they were married they started and coached a softball team that both of their daughters were on.  His by a former marriage and hers by a former marriage.  My s (probably naively) thought that he would continue to coach this team.  This week she sent him a text and said that he was no longer a coach and that his daughter (my gd) would no longer be on the team.  She sent a note to all player's parents that she had two new wonderful experienced coaches and that my s would no longer be a coach.   That she would be so mean to hurt a 14 yo girl in this manner is so typical BPD.  I do at this moment feel like my son and my gd were devoured by this woman.   She used my s to get out of her ex husband's house but now she has moved on and how much hurt she left in the wake is of no consequence to her. 

In many ways I am relieved that this last contact with her has been excised as well as she is truly a very ill person and to have her out of my granddaughters life has to be a positive, but in the mean time we deal with the hurt of a 14 year old being cut from a team just because of a divorce and my s losing something that he poured a great deal of the last 3 years into which was coaching and managing this softball team.   

Let it Be: 

I’m so sorry. It's so very hard to see our loved ones in pain.  We want to protect them and guide them.

It has helped me to explain to my friends and family that my ex has a disorder.  It's not as simple as moral defects or selfishness.  Her behavior is survival responses.  Your xDiLwBPD is just acting on her limited capacity.  If she sees your S or gD it would be too much pain for her and too much confusion as to why things did not work.  She can't process the dynamics of the relationships in her life.

It's not that she won't but that she can't.  She doesn’t have the capacity.

And as Careman’s thread and discussion with his T says, pwBPD are disordered and will not get better.  We can only hope they learn coping tools to be less destructive or at least to survive.

I've learned that teaching others to have compassion for pwBPD is the best method to heal.  Your gD is old enough to understand compassion, and to begin to grasp who her ex Stepmom is and why she acts the way she does. That way your gD can depersonalize the actions, and not be resentful, bitter, or shameful b/c of the actions of her ex stepmom. 

Because, although pwBPD behavior can be destructive and without compassion or empathy, it's because they have no free will in their actions.   They have only survival responses of a terrified three year old living in her very real nightmare.

So vilifying your ex DIL to your gD may cause your gD more damage by leading her down the path of resentment, anger, and fear.

And the real issue is not the actions of your ex DiLwBPD, but why your son choose her as a partner and how he's coping now.  For men there are usually issues of vulnerable narcissism, along with long-term personal shortcomings such as self-esteem and validations issues.  I hope he’s on the site learning about the disorder and learning about himself.

[afterdeath]

What a great post.  I loved the shark metaphor.   My son was married to a BPD.  She became unhappy with the marriage and started cheating.  The end of the marriage went fairly quickly but while they were married they started and coached a softball team that both of their daughters were on.  His by a former marriage and hers by a former marriage.  My s (probably naively) thought that he would continue to coach this team.  This week she sent him a text and said that he was MP longer a coach and that his daughter (my gd) would no longer be on the team.  She sent a note to all player's parents that she had two new wonderful experienced coaches and that my s would no longer be a coach.   That she would be so mean to hurt a 14 yo girl in this manner is so typical BPD.  I do at this moment feel like my son and my gd were devoured by this woman.   She used my s to get out of her ex husband's house but now she has moved on and how much hurt she left in the wake is of no consequence to her. 

In many ways I am relieved that this last contact with her has been excised as well as she is truly a very ill person and to have her out of my granddaughters life has to be a positive, but in the mean time we deal with the hurt of a 14 year old being cut from a team just because of a divorce and my s losing something that he poured a great deal of the last 3 years into which was coaching and managing this softball team.   

Let it Be: 

I’m so sorry. It's so very hard to see our loved ones in pain.  We want to protect them and guide them.

It has helped me to explain to my friends and family that my ex has a disorder.  It's not as simple as moral defects or selfishness.  Her behavior is survival responses.  Your xDiLwBPD is just acting on her limited capacity.  If she sees your S or gD it would be too much pain for her and too much confusion as to why things did not work.  She can't process the dynamics of the relationships in her life.

It's not that she won't but that she can't.  She doesn’t have the capacity.

And as Careman’s thread and discussion with his T says, pwBPD are disordered and will not get better.  We can only hope they learn coping tools to be less destructive or at least to survive.

I've learned that teaching others to have compassion for pwBPD is the best method to heal.  Your gD is old enough to understand compassion, and to begin to grasp who her ex Stepmom is and why she acts the way she does. That way your gD can depersonalize the actions, and not be resentful, bitter, or shameful b/c of the actions of her ex stepmom. 

Because, although pwBPD behavior can be destructive and without compassion or empathy, it's because they have no free will in their actions.   They have only survival responses of a terrified three year old living in her very real nightmare.

So vilifying your ex DIL to your gD may cause your gD more damage by leading her down the path of resentment, anger, and fear.

And the real issue is not the actions of your ex DiLwBPD, but why your son choose her as a partner and how he's coping now.  For men there are usually issues of vulnerable narcissism, along with long-term personal shortcomings such as self-esteem and validations issues.  I hope he’s on the site learning about the disorder and learning about himself.

Schroeder, can you elaborate on vulnerable narcissism as well as the validation and self esteem for males? I have been trying to figure out my core issues and where they stem from and I know self esteem is a big one as I can't say I had a bad family life at all.these three issues you just mentioned may be the keys to open my doors to improvement and freedom so I can finally detach from my ex.

[Tausk]

These are my thoughts, but  I'd also suggest that you perhaps post a new thread of your questions and get feedback from the group.  That way you can find a wide variety of ideas and weed through the ones that seem to resonate with you.  And for me, it's a continuously dynamic process, so I've had to continuously try and keep mindful of my plan and feelings.

IMO, Vulnerable Narcissism refers to a person needing to have attachment and sacrifice to another person in order to feel self-worth.  I know that in the past, all my exes have been kinda of waifs who needed to be cared for and didn’t really care for me. Although my behavior was somewhat sincere and noble, for me it also partly stems from the fact that I didn’t feel deserving enough to be cared for, and I need the validation of being needed in order to feel good about myself.  And I've always been shy women who really are secure and beautiful, because I don't think that I compare.

So my sacrifices were in many ways a method of not looking at issues of shame and lacking self-worth. And sometimes, it was due to my destructive perfectionistic self-standards and self-judgement.  

But my above personality describes one type of men who women wBPD seek out like a guided missile.   The other type they attach to are abusive NPD’s, but NPD's don’t suffer our pain and write on this board.  

And, it’s not necessarily that we had terrible childhoods, because we at least were raised to be people of character.  People that other people can trust.  People with sincerity and loyalty.  People of deep compassion and empathy... .   All good qualities.   But as 2010 says, perhaps we didn’t receive childhood validation at times for our actions and behaviors.  Or it just might be a shortcoming. Jeffery Young in his Schema therapy has some models that are pretty obvious, but he also give some guidance on how to grow past the personality traits that we no longer wish to keep.

But pwBPD see us and mentally mark us down as potential objects of attachment.  They file us away and when the opportunity and timing is correct, mirror us and lure us into the disorder.  What we see in our mirrored exes are the good parts of who we believe we should be.  What they project on us is their shame.

Both are inaccurate. Since we can’t be perfect and our exes can’t be perfect.  And we aren’t all bad either.  So we are equally responsible in the interaction.  But sadly, we’re the only ones that can actually self-actualize, modify behaviors and grow.  They just continue the “Ground-hog day” repetition of the insanity of the disorder.  

So sad and pathetic.  

[Lost_husband]

WOW!  I just basicly had the exact same conversation with my T.  She called me "Normal".  I was shocked and told her that was the last thing I wanted to hear.  But she said basiclly the same thing.  We are able to change and adjust.  She will not be able to. 

Thank you!

[Lost_husband]

My T told me my H does not live in the real world, nor do rules apply to him.  Careman, you explained this very well to me.  Thank you.

Same here about my W.   

[afterdeath]

These are my thoughts, but  I'd also suggest that you perhaps post a new thread of your questions and get feedback from the group.  That way you can find a wide variety of ideas and weed through the ones that seem to resonate with you.  And for me, it's a continuously dynamic process, so I've had to continuously try and keep mindful of my plan and feelings.

IMO, Vulnerable Narcissism refers to a person needing to have attachment and sacrifice to another person in order to feel self-worth.  I know that in the past, all my exes have been kinda of waifs who needed to be cared for and didn’t really care for me. Although my behavior was somewhat sincere and noble, for me it also partly stems from the fact that I didn’t feel deserving enough to be cared for, and I need the validation of being needed in order to feel good about myself.  And I've always been shy women who really are secure and beautiful, because I don't think that I compare.

So my sacrifices were in many ways a method of not looking at issues of shame and lacking self-worth. And sometimes, it was due to my destructive perfectionistic self-standards and self-judgement.  

But my above personality describes one type of men who women wBPD seek out like a guided missile.   The other type they attach to are abusive NPD’s, but NPD's don’t suffer our pain and write on this board.  

And, it’s not necessarily that we had terrible childhoods, because we at least were raised to be people of character.  People that other people can trust.  People with sincerity and loyalty.  People of deep compassion and empathy... .   All good qualities.   But as 2010 says, perhaps we didn’t receive childhood validation at times for our actions and behaviors.  Or it just might be a shortcoming. Jeffery Young in his Schema therapy has some models that are pretty obvious, but he also give some guidance on how to grow past the personality traits that we no longer wish to keep.

But pwBPD see us and mentally mark us down as potential objects of attachment.  They file us away and when the opportunity and timing is correct, mirror us and lure us into the disorder.  What we see in our mirrored exes are the good parts of who we believe we should be.  What they project on us is their shame.

Both are inaccurate. Since we can’t be perfect and our exes can’t be perfect.  And we aren’t all bad either.  So we are equally responsible in the interaction.  But sadly, we’re the only ones that can actually self-actualize, modify behaviors and grow.  They just continue the “Ground-hog day” repetition of the insanity of the disorder.  

So sad and pathetic.  

Thank you. your opinion on vulnerable narcissism is one that I have to agree applies to me perfectly 100%. I made her my purpose in life, my heaven, my hell, my rapture. I knew this was not healthy as I would've did anything for her, and I did and it ultimately cost me everything including myself.

I can relate to you perfectly. No self esteem, no self worth, no purpose in life. When I'm around beautiful girls I am also intimidated. I was constantly intimidated by my ex beauty and I'd tell her I was scared and nervous around her even after being with her two years.

It's like they can smell fear. I'm not sure why I'm this way. Many girls tell me I'm very attractive and sweet and some call me a player. I've always had better girl friends than guy friends but yet a rare beauty still paralyzes me, but I'm also not interested in anything but the rare gem that seems to have it all.

Only my last diamond was cubic zirconia set up in a trap sprung on me just as I was about to take it from the temple of BPD

Honestly, I must figure out my self esteem issues... I did used to be chubby when I was a round kid, teased quite a bit. Definetly not chubby now though.

Sorry for hijacking btw

[Let it Be]

And the real issue is not the actions of your ex DiLwBPD, but why your son choose her as a partner and how he's coping now.  For men there are usually issues of vulnerable narcissism, along with long-term personal shortcomings such as self-esteem and validations issues.  I hope he’s on the site learning about the disorder and learning about himself.

Yes, that is the real question.  My husband and I have both mentioned this site to him but he has been unwilling to share any of her behaviors with us in depth.  We only learned of this last episode through our other son.  Many times that has been the case as he shares with his brother more than us.  I know this last episode with the softball team was really the thing that hurt him most, as of course, the BPD was hurting both him and his daughter.   He does work really long hours and being a good provider and even doing and providing for her children from her other marriage was rewarding to him.  So the vulnerable narcissism would fit,  Interesting to note though both his grandfather and an uncle are married to women with BPD tendencies.  Their marriages remained intact but by lots of sacrifice of family and personal life for both of them.   Self esteem issues are relevant as he was the youngest in his classes and so always the smallest.  It was not until college days that he caught up physically.  Sports are very important to him. 

[findingmyselfagain]

Careman,

Thanks for posting! I'm over 2 years out and sometimes the r/s is like a buzz in my ear I can't get rid of. I grieve and have grieved a lot over the fact of just how NOT NORMAL she is. It helps to hear that it isn't me and there's nothing I can do. It is kind of sad, and that's one of my hooks, but I also need to learn to accept that there are some things that just are. I'll be better off (and she will, too) if I pursue healthier r/s's. There was a time when I couldn't have imagined complete NC, but now I accept it as something that's very necessary for my health.