Wondering about my Mom

[isshebpd]

I think of my uBPDmom as unfeminine because of her emotional coldness. Validating emotions is something women seem to do a lot, way more than men. Also sociability. In the past she destroyed her social networks more than created them, especially with other women.

She lacks a lot of feminine traits. But doesn't really have obvious masculine traits. The bullying and raging is more childlike than male or female.

[isshebpd]

Why won't she admit it? My uBPDmom doesn't communicate directly, never has. She hints like a mischievous child.

I didn't even know about BPD until my Mom dropped it out of nowhere when she was talking about her sister. I've tried to get her to talk more about BPD, and uBPDmom seems to admit it without say it directly. When I was leaving, she said "don't abandon me" like it was a semi-joke or semi-admission.

Both uBPDmom and enablerdad are becoming more frank about how they weren't the best parents. I think they watch how awesome my sister is with her kids and realize they sucked. But they always skate around it, never fully admitting to anything. I'm just glad to see any progress so I don't see any point in getting into a fight about it.

Yes, I'm not all sunshine and ponies. Both uBPDmom and enablerdad were negative and abusive to me growing up. It sunk in, and they now admit it wasn't really my fault... .  sort of.

I'm going to try to get a low dose of anti-depressants. Ten years ago, I quit smoking tobacco with an anti-depressant. It was the best time of my life, I felt like I could do anything. But once I quit smoking, I stopped taking the anti-depressant, and still wasn't smoking  but slipped into a depressive state again. :'(

I still smoke though, just marijuana. But I know I have to stop it. I self-medicate for what may be PTSD. I also self-poison with alcohol once or twice a week (I mean I drink to get drunk). Maybe if I take a small dose of anti-depressants, I can stop all that, and pull my life together. I'm going to ask the clinic... .  

[isshebpd]

"self-medicate"

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any kind of unconventional treatment. Its a term I'm just applying to myself, and I realize it may be denial.

[isshebpd]

College is where many people go to really grow as individuals and branch out; to be in class with your mother would have robbed you of that experience.

I've been thinking a lot about what my uBPDmom did in University. She was undermining me whether she realized it or not.

I'm realizing I have some avoidant characteristics: Shyness, fear of rejection/criticism, lack of self-confidence, lack of trust, not seeking close friendships. I mean its not to the extreme of those suffering from avpd who can't leave the house, get a job or have any relationships, but I'm not too far off.

At that time, I wasn't just trying to grow and branch out. I was first trying to come out of my shell. I will never be able to confront her on this. I know I have to let it go. But I'm going to have to go very LC with her for a long time, so I can finally come to terms with it. I don't care if she is acting a bit better now, the damage is done.

[Cordelia]

I've been thinking a lot about what my uBPDmom did in University. She was undermining me whether she realized it or not.

My enDad has done some of that stuff with my older brother - buying the same car as him, trying to use the same strategies at work, etc., and he does stuff like that with me to a lesser extent.  For example if I say something about a conflict I'm facing he will try to apply it to his own situation, even when it really doesn't make sense.  I think he does just have a weak sense of identity.  The only solution I have found is distance, distance, distance.  Geographical, emotional, intellectual.  It's hard to do because often there's a part of me that still has something to prove to my parents.  I want to show my mom, and have her accept, that I am a good daughter, a loving, caring person, someone who has integrity and will do the right thing.  I want to show my dad that I'm an impressive person with impressive accomplishments, that I've made a real difference in the world and I'm responsible and pull my own weight in life.  In the last few years of therapy I've come to realize that these are pointless tasks, because these doubts that my parents had about me (whether I am responsible or loving) really are projections of doubts they had about themselves.  I can never prove to my mom that I'm caring, or my dad that I'm responsible, because in these moments they are doubting that, they are thinking about themselves.  And I have no influence over how they think about themselves.  That's really their battle to fight.  And in truth both of them identify real problems in themselves, that they dealt with by projecting on me rather than being honest about and addressing in their own lives.  My mom is NOT particularly kind, to herself or anyone else, and my dad is NOT particularly responsible, he has let down and disappointed so many people.  But these are THEIR problems, not mine, to solve.  I am trying to let go of these fruitless quests to prove something to my parents, and in doing so, I find our relationship becoming more distant, but also more calm for me.  I no longer care as much what they think, of me or anything else, actually.  I still care about them (at least I care about my dad, unfortunately I never got a chance to have a loving relationship with my mom because of her mental illness), I just don't care what they think about me, or how far they're able to evolve as individuals, that much.  They came into this life with a lot of challenges, and they may never solve them.  That's sad for them, but doesn't really affect my life at this point.  Every time I let go of my desire to solve their problems for them, I free up a bit more energy to think about what I want out of life and try to pursue it.  Happiness is not that hard.  It's right in front of us every day.  It just takes a little time and attention, and when I stop trying to solve other people's problems, I find I have more than enough.   

[isshebpd]

My enDad has done some of that stuff with my older brother - buying the same car as him, trying to use the same strategies at work, etc., and he does stuff like that with me to a lesser extent.  For example if I say something about a conflict I'm facing he will try to apply it to his own situation, even when it really doesn't make sense.  I think he does just have a weak sense of identity.

My uNPDbro did the same thing with the car. My normal sister bought a car and few months later uNPDbro had one that was almost identical. Also, my normal sister and her husband ride motorcycles, so uNPDbro now has a motorcycle too. I took up cycling for the first time in years, and uNPDbro is suddenly into cycling and borrowing my bicycle. uNPDbro is chronic for mirroring, even worse than uBPDmom. He has mirrored me in other ways too.

For about seven years, I was far away from uBPDmom and uNPDbro. I regret being in the same city as them again, and wish circumstances made it easier to go away again. I'm older and the economy is less forgiving. But my DW is from another city across the country. Her loving mom is aging, and she is the only living child. We may have a good reason to leave again at some point in the future. Only problem is she doesn't want to be around her abusive father again.

The great thing about having been so far away is I fell off my uBPDmom's radar screen. Months could go by and I'd hardly hear from her. Sometimes being the forgotten child works out well.

Its nice to see you care about your Dad. I have mixed emotions about mine. He's made digging hurtful comments at me in the past, but I feel he regrets it now. He could have done so much more to help me cope with uBPDmom growing up, so I have some issues with him still.

I'm going to work on caring less about uBPDmom. But I can't reflect on my own condition without thinking about her and Dad. I only woke up to the reality of BPD a few months ago.

[isshebpd]

Hmmm my uBPDmom just admitted to child neglect.

We were talking on the phone about my niece and nephew (her grandkids), and then she started talking about how responsible I was when I was when my brother was born. I was eight when he was born. She talked about how I sat watching TV with my baby brother sleeping beside me while she was in the next room. Then she went on further, admitting that she left the house and went down the lane to visit a friend (more than once, I don't know how many times) leaving me in charge of the house and my baby brother.

Her reasoning was I was big enough to carry him outside if the house caught fire. She didn't say anything about my sister, who would have been about five at the time.

Why is she telling me this? I don't even remember this happening.

I guess its something else to discuss with my new therapist.

[susiecue]

I think every person who has BPD diagnosed or not is different.  My mother has not been officially diagnosed and carries a lot of the same traits your mom does. I was never validated by any family members directly.  I was usually the one in the family that was being talked about behind my back, especially by my mom.

My mother sat back while my deceased father made passes at me, of which later in years he apologized for tearfully and was forgiven.  She always called me a liar.  No one in my family ever witnessed any fury of my mom face to face because she was such "a great friend and sweet as pie". 

As you said, they hide what they do to look civilized and its only by God's pure grace if they are caught in the act but either way each case is different. 

Some BPD sufferers are EXTREME abusers and some lessor so.  I think each of us has a different threshold of what we can bear then our psychological minds save ourselves and put us into our "other" world that is more tolerable so that we can block things out to survive.

I wish you the best and by the way, mine doesn't abuse alcohol, hurt herself, or try suicide but she constantly shows the classic symptoms of BPD and I still believe she has it no matter.

Good luck on your journey of this HUGE learning experience and hang in there with this website! It sure has helped me over some huge mountains as well as lead me to books I could learn about this disorder.

[isshebpd]

Sorry to hear what happened to you too.

Someone doesn't have to self-harm to have BPD. There are those who mainly direct their crazy inwards (cutting etc.) and those who mainly direct it outwards (tantrums etc.). So our Moms fall in the second group.

From what I'm reading, the oldest child faces the greatest chance to be the target of abuse. When my brother was born, my life took a turn for the worse. I got to watch my Mom have a meltdown, threatening to flee the home. I must have felt a burden of keeping the peace. What a thing for an eight year-old.

From eight on, I was increasingly on my own a lot of the time. In the morning, I put my lunch together and walked a few blocks to school, alone or with friends (no adults). By todays standard, an eight year old wouldn't do that. Mind you, it was the late-70s and people were less protective of children back then. Problem was I took my time getting to school, always arriving late, and my parents never really dealt with it.

By the time I was nine or ten, I started going to friends houses after school, usually latchkey kids. It was nicer to have no parent around, then be around my uBPDmom. My Dad used to come find me for supper, when he came home from work. I didn't always bother to tell uBPDmom what I was doing and where I was going. Dad has already admitted I was neglected as a kid.

Dad did get me involved in soccer and youth groups, but he seemed to do it more to make himself look like a good parent than for my benefit. He was the biggest loudmouth on the sidelines when I played soccer :P But at least he tried... .  sort of.

I shudder to think what else I've blocked out from my childhood. I'm not sure if therapists bring that out or if I have to wait for my uBPDmom to randomly recall more examples of neglect/abuse.

[ScarletOlive]

Hiya issheBPD, I very much relate to your story. I had to shoulder a lot of the responsibility running my household at the age of 8 too, and I know it's a lot to bear.   Remembering abuse is a tough process. The Survivors Guide on the side panel of this board is really helpful. Journaling and posting here really helped me get through the remembering stage. Hang onto the fact that you survived the actual events and you'll get through this too. This too shall pass, as they say. It hurts in the process, but we're here with you as you go through it.

[isshebpd]

I have to wonder how much my sister was running the house by the time she was 8. I was 11 and not around much by then. I seem to vaguely remember my sister and her friends taking care of my toddler brother a lot.

Considering my uBPDmom was supposedly a stay-at-home-mom, she wasn't really involved with her children's play. She did some of the basic housekeeping but provided no emotional mothering, none at all. She was more likely to rage at us than say something nice. Too bad she didn't just go to work and hire a nanny.

[XL]

I think this is a thing that conflicts me too. My mom was way over-protective when we were in front of her. However, she would get in hours long raging fights and tell us to "go play," which meant wandering off into rural land in preschool, wandering into unknown neighbor houses with other kids, hanging out with latchkeys kids with no parents, etc.

There was a ridiculously inconsistent double standard (being allowed to go hiking alone in the desert in preschool vs. not being allowed to leave campus for lunch in high school). I think that was far more damaging than the minor neglect.

I never got into any real danger, but the infuriating thing is that she flatly denies this. She'll say stuff like "I never let you walk to school by yourselves!" when I clearly remember the opposite. She denies letting me wander around park land, when I have clearly been able to find my little hiking trail on google earth, and definitely got about 3 miles away from the house when I was 6. Which... .  awesome when you're six, pretty jaw dropping when you're an adult and know better.

[XL]

Considering my uBPDmom was supposedly a stay-at-home-mom, she wasn't really involved with her children's play. She did some of the basic housekeeping but provided no emotional mothering, none at all. She was more likely to rage at us than say something nice. Too bad she didn't just go to work and hire a nanny.

Ditto. Mine was always like "I've sacrificed so much of my own life to be a stay at home mom and you don't appreciate me". In reality, she enjoyed feeling defeated and was looking for someone to blame. Unfortunately, it was her grade school aged kids. I would have preferred a work/nanny arrangement as well.

I get really uneasy every time she mentions what a great stay at home mom she was, and how other moms were far inferior for being selfish and working. There were a few stretches of months where she was a good stay at home mom, but there were whole years where she was just yelling, crying, or in bed.

[ScarletOlive]

I'm sorry, issheBPD and XL. I hear you both, and really do understand. It does seem counterintuitive to take pride in a status and then blame kids for that status that one has chosen.  Step four of the Survivor's Guide with all the new memories and realizations really is one of the hardest steps. Take good care of yourself. I'm reading and listening. You're taking good steps toward healing. Keep reading, journaling and taking good care of yourselves.

[isshebpd]

I had a good conversation with my sister recently. Its hard to do, as she is extremely busy. She is the only other member of my FOO who is not enmeshed.

She used the term "walking on eggshells" in reference to our uNPDbro and I also learned his mental health was worse than I realized. He's been suicidal in the past and has been on medication for many years now. Its good to know my uNPDbro's problems are understood because we all need to be wary of them.

My sister and I are very much on the outside of the toxic triad: uBPDmom, enablerDad, and uNPDbro.

Easter Dinner featured mores bizarre displays of my parents providing "narcissistic supply" to my uNPDbro. He usually shows up very late to meals making him the centre of attention. Then he constantly leaves the table to play with his laptop or PDA (which I would like to smash).

Upon his grand entrance (which usually occurs as everyone else is finishing) he demands something like wine with his meal, and enablerDad runs to get it like a servant. Its totally puke-worthy, but at least I'm not the only one in my FOO who feels this way.

I have to say one thing, my uBPDmom was very easy to be around this time. She's very religious lately, going to Church many times during Lent. Maybe her faith is giving her some insight into her condition. I suspect her conscience is bothering her.

[Santa Clara]

mistake post 

[Santa Clara]

Mistake again... .  

[isshebpd]

Whether I wanted it or not, my uBPDmom threw me a birthday party (mostly family). I never wanted it but I think she feels guilty about the past. I can't think of a way to not attend my own birthday party    

I told her I didn't care if my uNPDbro showed up or not... .   but said it in a way that showed my disdain. She invited him anyhow, since she can't take a hint. I guess I better be more clear, but at the same time people might hold it against me.

He showed up... .   no card (never mind a present which I didn't want anyhow)... .   not even wishing me a happy birthday. He just came for the food and was the big loudmouth he always is. If I'm correct, and he is a NPD and he is the "golden child" (and I'm the forgotten child... .   or at least have been) than I need to have nothing whatsoever to do with him. I guess this is something I can figure out with SET.

So after the party I decided to ask my uBPDmom about when I was born. I wanted to hear something good, something uplifting. First she talked about the labor, which I respect as I can only imagine how hard it is. But what I wanted to hear next, once the pain was over, was something about how wonderful it was to hold her first child... .   or something like that... .   you know something, anything just a bit positive.

All she could say about my birth was her disappointment when she was told the nurses wouldn't let her drink chocolate milk. Chocolate milk? That was her only concern? Maybe I'm taking this wrong, but it seems like it was all about her from the moment I entered this world  

Then I told my parents I'm on anti-depressants (low dose) and I'm now going to see a T. uBPDmom immediately got defensive, assuming I'm going to talk about how bad my childhood was etc. I definitely get the impression they went through this already with my uNPDbro, based on that and previous conversations. Oh well, they can deal with it.

Afterwards, my wife commented on how I couldn't hide the fact I hated being there. Except when I was talking to my sister, BIL and their kids. They are the only ones in my family I want to be around, as sad as it sounds.

Now I feel petty and bitter  

edit: "not" changed to "now"

[XL]

Happy birthday!   Sorry it sucked (I find mine triggering as well). Maybe you can wait a week and have a better dinner with the happier family members again.

My family becomes defensive if I mention drugs or therapy too. (Or discussing any family life with my partner). I've learned it's best to keep that under silence to protect the process from intrusion and wrecking.

You don't need to feel petty. It's hard dealing with these things, and holidays make it worse.

[isshebpd]

Thanks for the birthday wishes.

I couldn't help telling my parents. I wanted to see how both of them would react. There's so much buzzing around just below the surface, its driving me crazy. What have I not been told all these years? I'd rather just be out in the open with everything.

I don't see how she can interfere with my therapy. uBPDmom has no idea who the T is, and uBPDmom isn't part of my daily life.

One of my stresses about therapy is I may have self-educated too much, and may be going in with too  many assumptions. I have "know it all" tendencies sometimes.

[isshebpd]

So yes, my T believes my uBPDmom probably has BPD. That was from the first visit, and just me describing my uBPDmom's behaviour. There may be more too it, I'm guessing. As others here have mentioned, there is often co-morbidity.

One thing coming out of the first visit that I hadn't thought about before is disassociation. My enablerDad and teachers often got mad at me for being in a daze. This was before I started taking drugs. I even remember other kids commenting on it.

Even as an adult I still disassociate. Sometimes it can be confused with the effects of cannabis, if I happen to be using it. But it happens even when I'm not using. At work, I have to watch myself so I don't slip out of reality.

I remember very much going into my own world more than other kids. My paternal grandmother commented on it once, how I sometimes ignored everything and everyone around me when I was playing. I could play well with other kids too, but I was quite happy being left totally alone.

Overall though, so far my T thinks I'm fairly sane for what I went through.

[isshebpd]

I told uBPDmom and enablerdad to consider me and my uNPDbro in NC status. I know this makes family events difficult, but I need to protect my sanity right now. They aren't taking it well, but are more sad than anything. They've dealt with his mental issues in the past, so they can't claim all is well with the family dynamic.

[isshebpd]

When I told my uBPDmom I wanted NC with my uNPDbro, she told me a bizarre story. This was the second time I heard the story, as she told it years before shortly after it happened.

B = uNPDbro

K = girl he wanted

C = uNPDbro's best friend, probably co-dependent.

B knew K from high school and always had a crush on her. I guess he was too shy to do anything about it back then. I can sympathize as I was girl-shy in high school too (probably from having a fire-breathing uBPDmom). So K is back in town after being away for a long time. They were both 30ish.

Even though he hadn't seen her for so long, he felt the need to impress her. When she arrived back in town he put on an nice suit and rented an expensive car (even though he owned a perfectly fine car) when he went to greet her. As she didn't have a place stay yet, he let her crash at his apartment (that was it, I gather, no r/s).

That's when C shows up and discovers he has a common interest with K: heroin. So they end up doing drugs and whatnot. Even though K had never lead B on, B was very upset about it.

For some insane reason, B went crying to uBPDmom. You see, the mothers of B and C were friends. Somehow, an angry exchange of emails happens between the mothers, which ends their friendship.

Not long after this, K left town again, who knows if she ever returns. I wonder if she knows the ripple effect of the scenario, how she indirectly (and inadvertently) ended the friendship of two women she may not even know :P

After uBPDmom finished the story, I said "But K is a junkie".

To which uBPDmom replied: "The point is they were deceptive." Somehow she also seemed to think C's mother was in on it too (I doubt it).

uBPDmom didn't want to get past her emotions to realize:

1) K apparently wasn't interested in B, especially after his desperate display.

2) K is a junkie and B isn't. If K had actually fallen for B, it could have had disastrous consequences for B.

3) Its unhealthy to meddle in the love lives of your children. It made absolutely no sense for B to involve uBPDmom in the first place. No boundaries.

4) There is no point in retelling this story years later. I found it amusing, nonetheless, in a sick way.

BTW C is still a junkie, but I have no idea what's happened to K :P

What I'm amazed at is how the story hasn't changed over the years. My uBPDmom must be going over this in her head all the time.

[isshebpd]

I recently met with a victim of one of uBPDmom's smear campaigns. Rather than hearing an opposing viewpoint, this person was just confused by it all. They tried to guess what it was all about and guessed wrong. I told the person it wasn't about them; others have gone through the same.

I also had another weird conversation with my uBPDmom. When I was about 18 and my sister was about 15, I knew she and her girlfriends used to sneak out to see late night movies (this was the 80s). When my sister asked me not tell, I didn't. Even if I wanted to tell, it wasn't in my interest because I never knew how uBPDmom would react to anything.

Anyhow, we were joking about this at a holiday dinner recently. A few days ago, uBPDmom brought it up again and seemed to be blaming me for not telling her. And exonerating herself. A little parentification after the fact. At 18, I was in no condition to take care of my self, never mind others :P Yep, it was all my fault.

I learned from a relative that uBPDmom fell on her head when she was a kid. It was quite serious. I wonder how that might have contributed to her mental problems.

I also learned she was taking a lot of drugs in the late 60s. Including before and after my birth. I'm not impressed. By the way, this adds another BPD trait. She has 7 or 8 out of 9.

[ScarletOlive]

What I'm amazed at is how the story hasn't changed over the years. My uBPDmom must be going over this in her head all the time.

This makes sense. People suffering from BPD often have looping thoughts and ruminations. Your mom probably felt betrayed and may still ruminate over it.

A few days ago, uBPDmom brought it up again and seemed to be blaming me for not telling her. And exonerating herself. A little parentification after the fact. At 18, I was in no condition to take care of my self, never mind others :P Yep, it was all my fault.

You're right, you were a kid and not the parent of your sister. Siblings are close in age and it's like a code to look out for each other and not tattle or get each other in trouble with parents.

I learned from a relative that uBPDmom fell on her head when she was a kid. It was quite serious. I wonder how that might have contributed to her mental problems.

I also learned she was taking a lot of drugs in the late 60s. Including before and after my birth. I'm not impressed. By the way, this adds another BPD trait. She has 7 or 8 out of 9.

It sounds like more and more factors are point towards your mom having BPD. Does this make things easier for you?

[isshebpd]

I believe she is trying to project her bad parenting onto me. Once again, I'm the scapegoat.

It is a bit reassuring that I have a term to refer to. My T has already said she is apparently BPD, after just two sessions. The T diagnosed me PTSD (not complex).

The new information I'm digging up is starting to wear on me. My uBPDmom also knows people are rebuilding connections and feels a bit threatened. I don't know how she'll react to some things.

I've already had a very frank talk with my uBPDmom about my uNPDbro. Some things are out in the open now.

[isshebpd]

Early in this thread, I wrote:

Wanting to keep my Mom in a good mood, I didn't press further. But I did remember, in my own mind, something peculiar my Mom has sometimes done while raging at me over the years. She compared me to older sister. I'm a guy, so I always found it odd.   Though I'm also the eldest of three kids, I'm nothing like her older sister. But if she is one of her messed up moods, I might get compared to her older sister. what the heck?  ? I'm not the only one, though, as I recall she's made the comparison between her older sister and other family members. Maybe I just notice it most when she talked about me.

Do I want to ask my Mom why she did that? Why she compared me to her hated older sister? Do I go there now, when she seems to be trying to heal? Did she give me extra abuse because she somehow made me older sister in her mind? "You're just like (sister's name)" she would say. Totally messed up.

Well, I finally asked her why she compared me to her older sister. And she doesn't even remember doing it. She did it multiple time through the years, as long as I can remember, even in the recent past. Thankfully, other people heard her so I know I'm not going insane.

So What the heck, how can she say something so many times and not remember it?   

She seemed puzzled by my question, and wasn't angrily denying it or anything. So I believe her when she says she doesn't remember saying it.