Being Proactive

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm trying to be proactive in the divorce process.  My BPDw has pretty thoroughly declared that she does not intend to be in a marriage, but she has no intention of leaving.  So it's on me.  I was wishy washy about it as long as I could stand.  Once she recanted her declaration that she didn't want to break up, I was done.  Cried for days over it, then stressed, now I'm starting to act.

I scheduled a legal consult for Friday.  I have two separate therapy sessions today since I have a session scheduled with my old counselor and I can't reach her to cancel.  So I'll go to both.  I could use it.

I read Splitting, a book recommended here.  It has me a little nervous about the whole process, but also has me aiming to be assertive in the process.  I'm trying to be prepared for anything.  One of the recommendations the book put forth (not sure if it said it in so many words, but the message was clear) was to consult an attorney before declaring my intention to divorce to my BPDw.  Not sure how long I can sit on that conversation, but I'll try. 

My wife is high functioning (has job, no arrests) and I intend to share custody.  I'm hoping we can work that out cordially, but I doubt it.  And division of property will be tricky, but I think we can get there.  House/small business assets/furniture will be the biggies.  Most of what we own are things she wanted so she will feel entitled to them.  We have equitable incomes so alimony/child support should be non-issues.

Not sure what else I need to discuss with the lawyer.  I don't anticipate hard core punitive batles.  But then, I didn't anticipate a lot that has happened.

[Fultus]

I'm trying to be proactive in the divorce process.  My BPDw has pretty thoroughly declared that she does not intend to be in a marriage, but she has no intention of leaving.  So it's on me.  I was wishy washy about it as long as I could stand.  Once she recanted her declaration that she didn't want to break up, I was done.  Cried for days over it, then stressed, now I'm starting to act.

I scheduled a legal consult for Friday.  I have two separate therapy sessions today since I have a session scheduled with my old counselor and I can't reach her to cancel.  So I'll go to both.  I could use it.

I read Splitting, a book recommended here.  It has me a little nervous about the whole process, but also has me aiming to be assertive in the process.  I'm trying to be prepared for anything.  One of the recommendations the book put forth (not sure if it said it in so many words, but the message was clear) was to consult an attorney before declaring my intention to divorce to my BPDw.  Not sure how long I can sit on that conversation, but I'll try. 

My wife is high functioning (has job, no arrests) and I intend to share custody.  I'm hoping we can work that out cordially, but I doubt it.  And division of property will be tricky, but I think we can get there.  House/small business assets/furniture will be the biggies.  Most of what we own are things she wanted so she will feel entitled to them.  We have equitable incomes so alimony/child support should be non-issues.

Not sure what else I need to discuss with the lawyer.  I don't anticipate hard core punitive batles.  But then, I didn't anticipate a lot that has happened.

[ForeverDad]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I intend to share custody.  I'm hoping we can work that out cordially, but I doubt it.

While that is certainly a hopeful approach, it's probably not practical.  Beware of being too fair, too nice, too whatever.  For most of us, it wasn't just a custody struggle, War was waged on us.

If you make offers, be sure to ask for a little more than you expect to walk out with.  (Don't worry about having to look super 'fair', she will ask for A LOT more.)  Being fair walking into negotiations would put you at a disadvantage.  Imagine going before a judge and you requesting 50/50 but her asking for 99/1.  The risk is too high for the judge to split the difference from the start and you barely ending up with just alternate weekends.  Yes, maybe you would end up with alternate weekends anyway, but try to find ways for the judge not to make that decision simply because it's an 'easy' shortcut.

Something we've noticed in most case... .Your spouse can misbehave and even make false allegations but face few if any consequences.  On the other hand, you can behave well consistently and yet receive no credit.  Not fair, but that's often how things are.

By the way, even though you both work and have comparable income, if she ends up with majority time, then you'll likely have to pay her child support.

[Fultus]

She will have a hard time winning majority time unless she goes for pure lies.  That would get ugly and she would be pretty severely injured in the process.  I really hope this isn't going to go that direction.  It has been discussed before and 50/50 was the consensus.  Bu yeah, it's hard to say what will happen.

My custody offer will open with (pending lawyer's support): D5 with me on school nights and one weekend a month, with mother 3 weekends a month, even split on 5th weekends when they occur.  During summer, a 2:1 split in favor of mother.  I might start at 1:1 split ad work toward 2:1.  And even share of driving to exchange custody.

There will be issues here, particularly the weekends (W works Saturdays at irregular intervals) but that's the opening offer.  Really my W doesn't see much of our daughter 3-4 nights a week anyway.  I know my lawyer will recommend a simpler split, every other week or something, but it isn't as practical for our current situation.

I'm quite scared as to how she will react and what this will become.  If the word "abuse" comes up, it'll be hell.  I have certainly never abused either daughter or wife, but it seems a favorite BPD thing to say.  Maybe that book has me paranoid.  Or just prepared. 

[ForeverDad]

Many members here were pressured and manipulated to divulge information to the spouse.  Virtual interrogations through demands and guilting.  Now that you are pondering divorce, that has to stop.  Sad but true.  You can't divulge your conversations and strategies with lawyers or else you'd likely be handing over ammunition to be used against you.  Don't sabotage yourself, she'll do enough of that without your help.  So do remember that you have a right to privacy and confidentiality.

[tog]

Fultus, just be prepared, it might get uglier. My SO started out thinking he could get 50/50 and get her to agree (she did at first until she realized that they weren't getting back together) and now, 1.5 years later, we are at her trying to get sole custody, alleging emotional and physical abuse, alienating their son and generally making wild allegations.

My SO's first two lawyers were not fantastic. He went in asking for 50/50, she wanted full custody.  He kept asking for 50/50, it got uglier and uglier (though the judge has kept it at 50/50). Not until the third lawyer, who asked for SO to get full custody and her to get supervised visits, did she start to get nervous and behave herself a bit.

My SO has gone through so much in realizing just how nasty and vindictive she could be. The court system fuels and encourages it.  And his ex is extremely high-functioning. She's just really, really good at convincing everyone that he is the problem.

[Matt]

2 basic things to prepare for the lawyer (plus any questions you may have):

* Be prepared to tell her very clearly what your objectives are.  For example, what you think the best custody outcome will be, and basic $ issues.  Then watch how she responds.  Many attorneys will immediately - without knowing much about your case - begin to try to talk you out of those objectives.  They have found that it's easier to get their client to reduce his expectations, than it is to help him achieve them.  Those attorneys are losers - if she responds like that, don't hire her.

* If the attorney accepts your objectives - she won't give you any guarantees, but if she accepts that these are the goals you are asking her to help you achieve - then ask her for a clear plan to achieve them.  Step by step, what options do you have - what motions might be filed - what will be the path from where you are to where you want to get.  She may ask for a day or two to respond, and that's reasonable.  But if she tells you not to worry, she knows what she's doing - as my first attorney did - then she's a loser, so don't hire her.

What you want is an attorney who will hear your objectives and accept them (unless they are super-unreasonable), and who will give you a plan (not a guarantee) to achieve them.  If you can find someone like that - who also has experience with similar cases, so you can judge that she knows what she's talking about - that's who you are looking for.

[Fultus]

Just talked to my lawyer. We are trying to do this uncontested. If e need to, my wife and I well get a third party mediator, but not mediation per say. I think the terminology in this state might be non-standard. Anyway, I have my legal advice and now I need to talk to her. We need to try top talk things out. We really can't afford to fight, financially.

I'm scared as hell about this talk. She's been pretty decent lately. She's going to say "of course yoru want one now. I was just starting to feel good about you again." She feels good about things because I'm staying our of her way and not expecting anything resembling affection or support or disclosure or even honesty. We watch television together and interact with/talk about D5. We are cohabiting and little more.

It's going to be one hell of a weekend. Pray for me.

Fultus

[Matt]

What is your Plan B, if she doesn't respond positively?

[Fultus]

Plan B?  Umm... .it depends on the reaction.  I'm prepared to pursue a contested divorce if that is where it goes.  I have some financial backing from my parents if need be, but they have a lot more debt than I do so they aren't free to fling money around.

My BPDw's normal means to deal with bad news is to be as unemotional as possible, letting anger seep through sometimes.  I'll get accusations of plotting this all along or something, but there won't be much to do about it other than persevere.  There are places I can stay for a couple nights if it gets too bad.  I want us both to stay in the house through Xmas for our daughter's sake (birthday and Xmas back-to-back. 

I'm as prepared as I can be.  I set up a personal bank account and credit card in case of financial attack.  I warned my lawyer that there could be false accusations if things really get out of hand.  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. 

[Matt]

That sounds good.  I think it's very important, when you hope to settle out of court, to know what your plan is, if that doesn't work.  The other party will probably sense it;  if you seem to need the settlement too much, depriving you of that - or delaying - becomes more likely.  But if you go into it with the best intentions - bargaining in good faith - but also with a solid plan in case the other party doesn't play nice, then she will pick up that you will settle along reasonable lines or move forward toward a contested divorce, and she'll be more likely to work something out.

People with BPD often fight for the sake of fighting.  Your best chance to get a quick, simple settlement is to be very prepared to take another path if needed.

[ForeverDad]

Hopefully it will not be too bad.  But here's a few words of warning just in case.

False allegations... .be proactive in defending yourself.  Don't wait until the metaphorical fur starts flying and then try to think how to handle it.  That's too late to make strategic decisions on the spur of the moment.

If she seems to maneuvering (or surprises you) for an excuse to make an allegation, remember... .

• Don't restrain her if she starts hurting herself.



• If she blocks an exit, don't push past her, that could morph into "I was grabbed and shoved up against the wall and choked." If she's upset then beware of even the slightest touch.  Maybe for your spouse it might help her calm down, I don't know, but for many others it can make things worse.



• Of course, don't slap, grab, whatever.



• Of course, even if you don't do anything she could self-harm to claim you did something to her.



• Of course, even if you don't do anything she could still allege something even if there is no evidence.



• Call the emergency responders such as 911 for help, but be aware that if this is the first 911 call it could trigger her into worse behaviors, though if it is that bad you probably can't avoid it getting worse.  She will do or not do what she will or will not do.  You just do what you have to do, cautiously.

Are some of the above Ridiculous? Yes.  Ever happened? Yes.  Have some members here been arrested? Yes.

Keep in mind that if you leave for self-protection, you don't want to stay gone unless you take the children with you.  If you leave them behind then later on the professionals may be swayed to feel it wasn't that bad since you left the kids with her.  So ponder that, if it's not safe for you, why would it be safe for the kids?

Be aware that courts and others seem to go by a philosophical double standard, postulating that a person can have poor or even potentially abusive adult behaviors while at the same time not negatively affecting the parenting behaviors.  Doesn't make sense, but that's a concept you may encounter in the courts.  In my case, a high-conflict one, I had a temp protection order - TPO - that wasn't dismissed for almost 5 months.  However despite my apparent need for protection in one court from my then-spouse, family court gave her temporary custody of our child even though she was not allowed near me or in our home during those 5 months.

Many devices these days can record such as cell phones, MP3 recorders, voice recorders, etc.  Know how to quietly turn them on without anyone noticing.  (Remember, you would never need to reference a recording if nothing happens.)  Then you have a way to defend yourself in case a seemingly indefensible allegation is made.  If never needed, then years from now you can decide to delete them.  Some have worried about living in a restrictive recording state, they say to give notice if starting to record.  It could go both ways in my view.  Consider the options - do you want (possibly high) risk not having anything to defend yourself if charged with a crime or do you want the (minimal) risk of a judge telling you not to record?

Only you know your situation.  These are some ideas and concepts for you to consider and be forewarned.  She doesn't sound very confrontational or possessive (as my ex was/is) but you never know for sure what will happen when the feathers are ruffled.  One indicator, has your spouse ever threatened to call the police, make allegations, block your parenting, etc?  If so, then your risk heading into a separation period is higher than you think.

[Matt]

I'm assuming that any discussion directly between the parties would be in a public place, like a Starbucks or the food court at a mall, where there are others around.  And/or bring a non-family adult third party.  You absolutely should not be alone with someone who may have BPD and with whom you are in conflict, or negotiating a settlement.  As FD suggests, the risk is too high, that the person with BPD could create an incident or make an accusation.

I'm one of those FD is referring to, who have experienced this - not during a negotiation - actually I was sitting on the bed playing my guitar at the time - and who spent the night in jail as a result.  And now there is a public record - available to anybody online, and which can never be purged - saying I was charged with assault.  The lesson I learned was to never be alone with someone with BPD, without a non-family adult third party present.  Especially if you are discussing things that may be stressful, like a divorce.

[Fultus]

I don't see how i would have this discussion in public since we are never in public together without our daughter. And we sure aren't talking about it in front of her. I did download a one touch recorder app for my phone so i can get the discussion on tape without being too conspicuous.  If i try to arrange a Starbucks string, she is going to feel ambushed and that will get us nowhere.

Very nervous but thinking of talking tonight. Think I'll pack a bag first, just in case.

[Matt]

Why not ask a mutually-trusted friend to join the two of you to discuss it at Starbucks or McDonalds?

"We are never in public together without our daughter" - this is a subject that should not be discussed with someone who you think might have BPD, without a non-family adult third party present, or in a public place.

[Fultus]

I don't see me pulling off a public meet up. Or even a private meet with a third party. Our pastor (also a recently divorced friend) is the best candidate, but she'll feel ambushed for sure, like it's some kind of intervention.  It might jeopardize the smoothness of the process.

I... .I just don't know. I appreciate the advice and see the wisdom in it, but I'd like to hear others sound off. Do I really need a live third party present when I declare my intention to divorce? - When I say it like that, it goes both ways: it's such a private issue but also such a bombshell.   Help!

ETA: I am postponing said discussion until at least tomorrow to consider feedback and sleep on it.

[ForeverDad]

Your intention to divorce.  How far are you along in that?  Does the lawyer have the papers drawn up and ready?  (Or whatever preparations you feel are needed.)  I ask because stating you "intend to divorce" could be heard as ":)eclaration of War".  If she has BPD, perceptions mean far more than reality, especially if this comes out of the blue, so to speak.  Yes, it may not happen but how prepared are you if things go south?

If you have nothing prepared and she overreacts, you may have to scramble to to try to keep up.

You may not need someone there, but can you have someone 'on call' for the next 24-48 hours who you can dial and can hear what's happening if need be, someone who can call 911 for you if it gets really extreme?

In my case, one of us went to jail.  I think I was at high risk when I called the police, they asked me to hand my sobbing preschooler over to his mother and step away.  Scary thought, right?  Well, son screeched and clung to me tighter, so the officer just looked at me for a long moment then said "work it out" and they departed.  I now look back and say, "My son probably saved me that day and he didn't even know it."  Imagine, a child who was scared to go to his mother?  Later when I played my recording of the 911 call plus before and after raging, she was arrested for threat of DV.  Sure, it was dismissed a few months later but if I didn't have that my case would have turned out far different.

[Fultus]

It sure isn't how I'm planning to say it, but it is likely how it will be received.  And it is probably what its is at the message's core.  We've talked about the possibility.  I've told her that I know it's over. 

I don't have papers drawn up, but my lawyer was collecting info to start the paperwork.  I don't see anything she could do that could make me trust her.  Too much pain for too long.  The simple thought of leaving is incredibly painful, rivaled only by the thought of staying and the memory of what our marriage has been like for the past year+. 

This is not new for me, a fear of discussing an issue with my wife.  I'm trying to figure out how to make this happen with support, but I don't know.

[withBPD]

Hi Fultus,

I agree with the advice FD and Matt has given you. Please seriously consider it as they have already gone through their divorce with pwBPD and are here to help guide us with their experiences.

It sure isn't how I'm planning to say it, but it is likely how it will be received.  And it is probably what its is at the message's core.  We've talked about the possibility.  I've told her that I know it's over.

You may have mentioned about the divorce before to your wife but at the time, your tone and body language may have been interpreted differently by your wife. But now that you are really serious about it, your body language and tone will reflect that and she might flip out. 

I wish you the best,

withBPD

[ForeverDad]

Every case is the same but different.  The same in that you're dealing with someone whose subjective perceptions and moods guide their lives, yet different in that there is a wide range of behaviors and responses.  We can't say that you will have an incident but the odds are much higher than with a reasonably normal couple who is separating and going down the divorce path.  So for that reason we want you to be prepared if your conversation does morph into an incident, big or small.

For many of us here, it was a very volatile time, largely because we were/are dealing with a volatile spouse/ex.  Also, consider the fact that we arrived her because the conflict was so intense we needed peer support.  It's entirely possible that less conflictual marriage spouses never find their way here to seek support, we'll never know how many they are or the exact ratio.

I know in my case that my ex fitted all the traits of Paranoid PD, most of Borderline and some of Narcissistic.  Before we separated there were months she seemed to just moan and groan at home part of the time, seemingly low functioning, then demanding and controlling at other times.  But since we separated she's been high functioning as well as super-possessive.  I've weathered every possible child abuse allegation over the years.  She still tries to find fault with my parenting.

Maybe your wife is less conflictual.  No one can predict how your wife will react when facing what she may see as Abandonment at The End.  Be aware.  Be prepared (just in case).

[Fultus]

I have come up with only one viable option for a public setting: church. Yeah, not the best choice and don't really want an audience, but it is the setting I can arrange. Still seems like am ambush. Maybe I'll prep someone to contact in case of emergency as someone suggested.

Wife was just planning a rendezvous with her parents for tomorrow. I'm dragging this or and making things worse. I need to quit winning and treat her like an adult. Yes, I'll need some backup, but I don't need to put her on her heels. I'll let you know how it goes.

[ForeverDad]

Don't overthink things, just be reasonably prepared and reasonably safe as possible.

[Fultus]

BPDw had been extra nice today, but has been trying to make long term plans. Really can't put this off. Not going to be easy. I've been rehearsing so i can hopefully talk for at lest a few minutes without years, since crying really possess her off and I am a crier. 

Pray for us both, but especially for my daughter.

[Fultus]

Well that is over.

Told BPDw that it's over. Nothing exploded. No one yelled. I treated up a bit, but it was pretty controlled for me. She folded up blame and placed it neatly in my lap, but if deciding the divorce is all my doing helps her handle the process, I can live with that. It's not like I expected her to beg me to stay. She still has no idea why I have been

hurrying for the past 9 months - years, really, but acutely for 9 months.

A lot was said, mostly by her, but I don't think any of it matters. Mostly how I was just to hurt and I should have gotten over it. She claims to have been finally starting to get over her most recent hurt (something I said a month ago). And she was being nicer, but I don't believe in it anymore.

I realize I'm not out of the woods here. She could pop at any time for any our no reason, but I think I got the best reaction I could hope for. Honestly, I think this is what she had (consciously or not) been working toward for a lon m time: me divorcing her and the decision being mine. Not a reaction to some stunt, not a fight that ends in lawyers, but me deciding to end it and her telling me it's my fault. Not once did she even ask me to stay, just warned of consequences (though none seemed to be threats).

I'll give it a couple days before I approach her about negotiating the split. I'm going to try to get a mediator without involving lawyers, but my lawyer is standing by if I need him. This is not the first step on this road, but it's a step that changed the pavement.

Keep us in your prayers.

Fultus

[Surnia]

Well that is over.

I was thinking about you.   

Told BPDw that it's over. Nothing exploded. No one yelled.

Strange sometimes, isn't it? My xh could make whole drama about a dust bin, but stayed more or less cool about divorce... .

But I agree with you about not being out of the woods. I will keep you in my thoughts for the negotiating!

How do you feel right now?

Surnia

[Fultus]

I feel like a jerk. I feel like a quitter and a failure. I also feel strong and grown-up. A lot of sadness, a lot of fear. I guess more sadness than anything else.

She treated me from her bedroom saying she wanted me to try. It made me sad because I don't wasn't to try anymore. It was also insulting because it suggests I hadn't been trying every day of the past 12 years.

She blames me for feeling hurt and not getting over it. But she doesn't near any of the blame for causing my pain. That is who I am married to; that is who I am leaving. I have to remember who she is. The nice person, the hurt person is going to emerge. The person who needs my help. But that's not who I am being asked to stay with. I did not reach this decision lightly and I can't let a plea or two change me. My plead all went unanswered and I made a great many. It's time to accept what my marriage was and move toward some healing. Time to get off the rollercoaster.

Thanks to everyone here for their advice and support. I'm sure I'll need a lot more of it.

Fultus

[Matt]

This may be the right time to take a step or two back, away from frequent and intimate conversations with her.  If they are not leading toward a stronger relationship, they may be only making you more confused, and they might also be making her think you're on the fence when you're really not.

At some point, we each have to step away from the relationship altogether, and put it on only a business basis, and concentrate instead on the practical steps needed to move in a different direction.  It is a big loss - we grieve - and it may be harder to get through that if you try to stay close to her.

[Fultus]

This may be the right time to take a step or two back, away from frequent and intimate conversations with her.

Agreed.  We need to discuss the terms of the divorce, and that should probably be with a third party mediator.  Not sure she'll agree to such mediation, but she did agree that we should make this smooth and uncontested, as much for our daughter as anything.

We are both staying in the house through Christmas, again for D5 (who will be D6 in 5 days).  I expect we'll file early in the new year assuming we can make some ground on negotiations between now and then.  I'm starting to look at houses, though it's a bit premature for that since I don't know what we're doing with the one we have.  I'll start to organize my possessions (our house is quite a clutter zone) but I won't pack anything until after Christmas, likely after the new year. 

I have a bag packed with some essentials in case I need to leave in a hurry.  There may be a storm when BPDw realizes that I'm not changing my mind.  I'm pretty convinced that she wants me to stay because she fears change; it has practically nothing to do with me.  I guess most of our relationship has had practically nothing to do with me.  No matter what she tries to tell me, that has not changed. 

She's in angry mode this morning.  She went to church, so maybe she'll find some support there.  Not my role anymore.  I am finally trying to support myself.

[Matt]

Let's talk about the negotiation process.

Do you have an outcome that you think would be best?  Who lives where, who takes care of your daughter when, and basic money issues?

Could you prepare an offer with those basics, so she could consider it, and see how she responds?

That might tell you whether an out-of-court negotiation process, with a mediator, is likely to work, or whether she may not be able to take part in that productively.

If she is not able to negotiate productively, then you will need to learn about the court process and figure out how to get through it without her cooperation.

[Fultus]

So, I talked to uBPDw about divorce on Saturday night.  She blamed me for the problems in the marriage and removed herself from any responsibility in the conclusion of divorce.  She sent me a text from her bedroom (which has not been my bedroom in years) saying "I would really like you to try. I want to."  This after years of tenuous relations at best and a full year of intolerable conflict.

Sunday she ignored me as much as possible.

Today is Monday.  The pleas have begun (resumed, if you count the one from Sunday night).  So has the finger pointing.  All via text message.  "I think you're making the wrong decision... .I can wait for you to stop hurting... .I can't believe you are choosing to do this to D5... .We don't have the money for this... .You can try a little longer... ."  To that last I replied: No, I can't. 

The texts have stopped for the moment.  I probably responded to more than I should have.  I don't intend to respond to any more.  (I guess that doesn't mean I won't.)  I am taking screenshots of the messages so I can keep a record, just in case it becomes an issue later. 

I have to keep reminding myself why I can't keep trying, why this decision is made now.  There is no rebuilding what has been torn down.  I don't believe her anymore.  I'd be stupid to believe her.  I've been on this ride before and it isn't worth the price of admission to have no fun and be sick when it's over. 

No Contact really isn't an option.  I don't have a long term place to go and D5's birthday is Friday, with Xmas right around the corner.  We just need to avoid each other as much as possible.

I'm bracing myself for more dramatic attempts, especially sexual.  A lack of sex has been a serious point of contention throughout our marriage and I have always been very attracted to her.  I won't be surprised if she tries to convince me/herself that more sex is the solution to our problems.  I don't think she would put herself out there so much as to wait for me in a neglige or anything -- she's not willing to face that level of rejection.  Anyway, my mind is set against this tactic and my heart, while still feeling for her, does not trust her.  I just need to be sure I let those two organs do all the decision making.  She has manipulated me this way before, but always when it was something I wanted anyway.  I believe I am stronger than my libido.  [repeats this mantra to himself over and over]

I have to remember that I don't need to convince her of anything.  It will be impossible.  Just that I want a divorce.  Her fear of abandonment is what is fighting it.  And a fear of change.  There is no great love for me.  And loving her doesn't feel good anymore. 

[ForeverDad]

Make very, very sure you are in firm control of birth control (if there is any risk of a creating another child).  While children are wonderful blessings, another child just adds more complications to an already dysfunctional relationship.  Many a divorce has been sabotaged by "Oops, I forgot. We have another on the way. Now you can't leave me. (smirk)"