Custody update.

[sfbayjed]

So I had a court date a couple of weeks ago, and I got the court mediators report the night before.  The report was lenthy and the mediator spoke to the kids therapist, CPS and our old custody evaluator.  The results were basically that things are to remain the same for now, with both of us parents moving in and out of the house and the kids staying there full time, and we are to get an updated custody evaluation with the same person as last time.

The report also stated that if a custody evaluation was not feasible that the kids should stay with me most of the time and be with their mom every other weekend and one dinner visit a week. It stated several concerns with the ex'x parenting .  The ex also has to do 16 weeks of anger management classes starting next month. 

So the lawyers talked and we came to an agreement and didnt go to court that day. both Restraining orders got dropped.  the ex is fronting the money for the custody eval and a good chunk of my lawyer fees, she is also paying the rent and utilities on the house and I am not asking for any support as long as I live in the house and I agreed to a seek work order. I was already looking for work anyway.

It is a good step, it seems people are finaly starting to see through her facade but nothing has changed.  i am a little concerned about the custody evaluation because last time he seemed to really minimize her bevavior to make her look less bad and recomended 50/50.  I dont know what it is like with for the kids when they are with their mom but they seem really stressed when I get them and when I saw the ex, she seemed like she was ready to explode at any second. I am not sure she is going to ba able to hold it together for long.

My D9 was diagnosed with PTSD due to "domestic violence between the parents and threats from her mother".   I feel so bad that the kids have to deal with all this. 

So my problem is still finding some decent employment, something that is going to allow me to be there for the kids when I need to because things could end up going my way it seems.  I am trying not to get my hopes up.  I really do think it is best for the kids to have frequent yet limited time with their mom.

[ForeverDad]

With the stated default that you become majority time parent, D diagnosed with mother attributed as part of the casue, and she is ordered to take a series of Anger Management classes, it's hard to imagine a custody evaluation recommending equal time.  I'm thinking they may be doing this to see if a CE recommends even less contact or stricter rules for her proper behavior.  Of course, will the evaluator get the message or decide the classes will 'fix' everything?  Time will tell, but don't let down your guard.

They may still be very circumspect in recommendations or evaluations, especially since her employment or license could be at risk, so expect them to do some fancy dancing around some topics.

In my state only a custody evaluator or maybe GAL can recommend custody, not a therapist or social worker.  I was stunned for years why the court's social worker and son's therapists never commented about custody nor sought action.  Then after, some 5 years of counseling his T told me she could risk her license if she made recomendations, only observations were okay.  Duh, thanks everyone for telling me that crucial piece of information, as counseling was winding down.

[sfbayjed]

"They may still be very circumspect in recommendations or evaluations, especially since her employment or license could be at risk, so expect them to do some fancy dancing around some topics."

I kind of do get the feeling that there is alot more going on behind the scenes than what is comming out on paper.  It could just be my imagination, however.

[sfbayjed]

I had co=parenting with her yesterday with the same therapist that use to be our marriage therapist.  She was very angry and not happy with the living situation, very aggresive and seems very volitile.  I am pretty worried about what she might do.   She was posting things on facebook asking for help in getting me out of the house. She has deleted it.   She also said in our session "My whole family is angry with you"  which knowing  her family and they way they handle things seems like a threat.  She also really was talking down to me and being herself basically.    

I am not too happy with the therapist because it just seems like he is not calling her out on her bevavior and seems to tkae her side on alot of things that it does not make sense to do so.  

I am wondering if I should ask for a different therapist, he has been seeing us for over 2 years so he knows us, but he doesnt seem to understand the need for boundries on her bevavior and on the way she talks to me in session.    

[Matt]

First, congratulations on what sounds like a positive step for now.  It's pretty unusual that a mom gets less than half the time, even temporarily, so this pretty clearly establishes that a neutral professional sees you as the better parent.

Second, the part about "My whole family is angry with you"... .  

One of the things that indicates parental alienation is when it's not just one parent being mad at the other parent, it's a whole family or "tribe" - the angry parent plus all her supporters - ganging up on the other parent or "tribe".  This comment suggests that your wife is probably already - consciously or unconsciously - alienating your kids.  Since you'll have more time with them, her efforts may not be effective, but they will be stressful on the kids.  You might want to read ":)ivorce Poison", which describes how this works and what you can do about it.  (The author is Richard Warshak.)

Tread carefully.  Some lawyers, judges and therapists don't like the term "parental alienation" - they see it is an exaggerated thing - many parents and lawyers have claimed alienation was happening and it really wasn't.  Don't get into a philosophy discussion on whether PA is very common or not - that's not the issue.  The issue is whether your wife and others are saying negative and false things about you to the kids, or using other techniques like asking them if they are afraid of you - one way to make kids afraid - ":)oes Daddy ever hurt you?  Are you afraid he might hurt you?" etc.

Talk with your lawyer about this.  Look for ways to document it if you can.  Express concern to the neutral professionals but careful not to make accusations you can't back up.  "In our session she said 'My whole family is angry with you.' which makes me concerned about how the kids might be affected by that anger."

About the dynamics of the therapy sessions... .  

It is reasonable for you to discuss boundaries with the therapist and the other party, and for you to state your own boundaries and maintain them.  Let me give you an example... .  

We went to four marriage counselors over the years, all chosen by my wife.  By the third one, I had learned a few things.  When my wife began to make false accusations, I waited for her to finish, and then said to the therapist, "Ms. Matt just now accused me of X.  That is false and there is no evidence to support it;  in fact if you want, I can bring proof to our next session that it is false.  I will not take part in these sessions if there will be false accusations.  The next one that I hear, I will leave the session."  He saw what I was doing - stating a boundary in terms of what I will not tolerate and what I will do if it happens - and he gently backed me up.  "I hear that you are not willing to hear more accusations and I think that is a boundary we need to respect, Mr. Matt.  Mrs. Matt, do you hear that boundary and are you going to respect it?"  My wife had to back down - she didn't admit that she had lied, but she agreed not to make more accusations like that.

For you, the boundary might be different.  You don't want to be too controlling or to try to dictate the other party's behavior, but if there is a reasonable limit to her behavior, maybe you can put that forward as a boundary, and then, depending how the therapist deals with that, decide if this therapy is productive.

What's the purpose of these sessions - to fix the marriage or to negotiate the divorce?  Or something else?

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if I should ask for a different therapist

Hell yes.

[livednlearned]

Be very careful about coparenting therapy. The T can be subpoenaed, and if you feel that the T has a bias, or does not understand the severity of her condition, you are at risk. Nothing you discuss in those T sessions is confidential.

During mediation, my L advised me to agree to coparenting. I went once ($250 consultation) and N/BPDx went once ($250 consultation). I had a hard time with the waiver we were supposed to sign and questioned the T about it. She said there was no confidentiality and that yes, if she was subpoenaed, she would disclose her professional opinion.

We never went back, partly because of my concerns, (I was also afraid because I wanted to sit in a separate chair, and the room only had a short couch, so N/BPDx and I would have to sit next to each other). N/BPDx never insisted on it, most likely because of the cost and because he was only doing it at his L's counsel.

In my opinion, if there has been DV, then coparenting is not possible. If this is not court-ordered, stop going. If it is court-ordered, then find a T you trust and be very careful about how you conduct yourself. Treat it like a stage play in front of 20 jurors and a judge.

[sfbayjed]

I do need to set some boundries next time. I am going to prep what I am going to say before I go in there next time.  This are court ordered c0-parenting sessions. They are not productive at all. At this point it is nothing more than a venue for my ex to engage me in drama. I am as close to no contact as possible having kids with her so this is her only oppurtunity to engage me, put me down, and drop hints about her love life.  I hate that I have to go be in the same room from her.

I am also going to ask my lawyer about the possibility of changing therapist or delaying co-parenting until my ex does her anger management classes.

Just to clarify, I do not have majority time with the kids at this point. It is still 50/50 (almost). What the court said is that is a custody eval does not happen then I will get majority time. The ex is fronting the money for the CE so until that happens things will remain the way they are.  The kids stay in the house and us parents move in ant out of the house.

It is still a step in the right dirrection.

The ex lost the dog over new years, she left him alone  in the yard from 2pm until 4pm the next day and he got out.  The poor dog had no shelter in the yard and it was cold that night.  She tried to use this to engage me "Can you come help look for the dog, he is both of ours afterall"   I am not falling for it though. I am going to contact the shelter and look for him on my own but I am not engaging her.

I really understand why no-contact or minimal contact is so important.  The co-parenting thing was really bad for me emotionaly.  I do not want to be around this woman.  She is nothing short of toxic for me.  

[Matt]

So she wins by stalling - if she doesn't pay for the CE, things stay like they are.

What is your plan to deal with that - break that almost-certain logjam?

About boundaries... .  here's how I presented it.  Your issues are somewhat different but this general approach worked well.

"Before we get started, there's an issue I'd like to raise with you both.  These sessions are required by the court, so it's in all our interest for them to be productive, but I think we can all agree they haven't been productive up til now.  So I thought of some simple ground rules that maybe we can agree to that will move things forward.

"First, and this is one I feel very strongly about, I think it's important that there be no false accusations made in these sessions.  If there are false accusations, I will leave the session and inform my attorney of why.

"Second, let's identify the issues we're going to work on at the start of each session, and then let's focus on those issues.  Going far off the track makes the session unproductive.  I'll look to you (counselor) to manage that and bring us back on course when we wander away - is that fair?

"Finally, let's agree that we should keep our voices moderate, and keep a calm tone all the time.  We're here to solve problems together so there's no need for us to get too upset.

"Are those good ground rules we can all commit to?"

If you can phrase everything so that no reasonable person would disagree, both your ex and the counselor will have to agree.  Then when the other party violates one of the ground rules, you can turn from her to the counselor - end eye-contact with the ex and only make eye-contact with the counselor - til the counselor gets the hint and does job.  She will surely do it gently - "We're a little off track - let's get back to our issue for today... .  ".

If that still doesn't work, you might have to wait for a pause in the action - til you have the floor - and then read back from your notes - I assume you bring a notebook to these sessions? - read back exactly what was said, word-for-word if possible.  "Just now, Ms. Ex said, 'Jed is a kitten-hating Nazi.'  This is a false accusation.  At the start of this session, we agreed that there would be no false accusations, and I said that if there were any, I would end the session.  Now should I leave, or can we back up a few minutes and do it a different way - re-state your point without any false accusations?"

If that still doesn't work, be prepared to literally walk out, go to your car and drive home.  Then send an e-mail to your attorney recounting exactly what happened, and copy the counselor.  Tell your attorney you intend to continue with court-mandating sessions but you will continue to end any session which contains false accusations (or whatever very serious boundaries you decide on).  It's critical that your attorney back you up on this, so you might want to let him know what you're doing.

[GaGrl]

I think it's entirely reasonable to postpone the court-ordered co-parenting classes until your stbx has completed her court-ordered anger management counseling?  It is counterproductive to do the first before the second has been given a chance to be "successful."

Does the co-parently T know that stbx is court-ordered to anger management counseling?  If so, why is he/she even attempting to conduct the sessions?

[ForeverDad]

And don't count on the court-ordered Anger Management sessions to make a dent in her behaviors.  Yes, it's the standard order, yes it *might* help, but don't count on it.  Your key advantage here is that at least it's "on the record" somewhere so you can reference it as needed whenever the counselors or judges are flummoxed and wonder which of you is the problem parent and which of you to believe.

I don't think my ex was ever ordered to get any sessions for anything.  Some 7 years after separation, she still has the same issues and thus far no one wants to come right out and bluntly set her straight.

[Matt]

I think it's entirely reasonable to postpone the court-ordered co-parenting classes until your stbx has completed her court-ordered anger management counseling?  It is counterproductive to do the first before the second has been given a chance to be "successful."

Does the co-parently T know that stbx is court-ordered to anger management counseling?  If so, why is he/she even attempting to conduct the sessions?

Very interesting thought!

What if... .  next session... .  Ex becomes agitated, and rather than responding to what she is saying, you ask, "Have you completed the court-ordered anger management class?"

If she says "Yes", you have your lawyer check on that, and bring the information to the next session.  "Last time, I asked if Ms. Ex had completed the anger management class, and she said yes.  The reason I asked was that she seemed angry in the session.  My lawyer checked and sent me this document, which seems to show that she has not actually completed that class.  I see this as a problem, first because we can't solve problems together if we don't tell the truth about simple factual matters, and second because I think these sessions will be more productive once those classes have been completed.  So let's cut this one short and come back together at that time - OK?"

To LnL's point, what goes on at that session is potentially part of the court record.  So the counselor can be subpoenaed, and she'll have to testify accordingly:  "Ms. Ex said she had completed the anger management class when she had not.  So I agreed to suspend the co-parenting meetings til she had done that."

Or she may tell the truth - "No, I haven't completed that class."  "OK - thanks.  I see you becoming upset, and I think that's making it harder for these sessions to be productive.  Let's suspend them til you've completed that class - when will that be?"

Again, best to keep your lawyer informed, but don't let him bully you into sitting still for stuff you shouldn't have to put up with.

[livednlearned]

Great idea to talk to your L about post-poning the coparenting sessions. For high-conflict cases, they are useless, and like you mentioned, emotionally draining. I did a lot of reading about coparenting T, and it is never recommended for DV cases.

[Matt]

Great idea to talk to your L about post-poning the coparenting sessions. For high-conflict cases, they are useless, and like you mentioned, emotionally draining. I did a lot of reading about coparenting T, and it is never recommended for DV cases.

If you addressed this issue - putting these sessions on hold til both parties are better able to make good use of them - with the co-parenting T, how do you think that would play out?

Would she even be willing to discuss it with you?  Would it be a big legal mess?  Or would she maybe say, "Yeah, I was wondering when you were going to get to that point.  If you want to put them on hold I'll support that."?

I think if you looked like somebody just taking their ball and going home, that might work against you.  But if you find a fair, "professional" way to communicate the issue, that might elevate you from "one of two kids fighting" to "mature, strategic, problem-solver".

[sfbayjed]

I talked to my lawyer briefly today and she said I should keep going to coparenting because it is a court order. The original mediators report called for coparenting after her anger management classes but the lawyers said that since that were had already been going per the agreement with CPS that we should keep going. It ended up being apart of the deal.  My lawyer actualy seemed happy that she was acting out in the session and thinks its a good idea to keep going

I have been thinking about what you-all have said and I am thinkiing I need to put the ball in this co-parenting therapist court.  I should call and express my concerns with him and ask him why he thought it was a good idea to continue given the circumstances, the DV, her anger, ect.  I will tell him how I dont feel exactly safe sitting next to her on a couch, which is  true.  Last time at the end of session she started saying aggressively "do you want your sposal SUPPORT, it's in my car, I have your check for $200, meet me at the car"   It was so aggresive, and I said I didnt not feel save meeting her outside and that she could mail it too me.   Then at the end of the session I went and hid in the bathroom until she and her mom (her mom is as scary as she is) left the building, then i sat in the waiting room for a few minutes just to make sure they were gone before I went outside.

I also brought up, with my lawyer,  the part about her paying for the CE and what is to prevent her from delaying. it was one of my biggest concerns after reading through everything the lawyers did.   My lawyer said "She will gain no advantage by delaying" I am not so sure this is true. I do not no how long it's going to take but the CE is not going to start until at least feb. At that point there is going to be several months of status quo 50/50.  I am going to ask my lawyer to keep on top of this.   I am not sure what else I can do about this at this point. It is the way things are now.  I am suprised considering the narrative of the mediators report that I wasnt given temp majority custody pending the outcome of the CE, but that is not what happened.  I suppose if she refuses to pay I can go back to court and say a CE is not feasible because she hasn't paid for it.  

I came and took over with the kids today and the ex left. She found the dog 15 minutes after she left and brought it back.  weird.

I am under no illusion that anger management is going to do anything for her. I also told my lawyer this. I am almost certain it is not going to do her anygood. Her eyes change when she goes into rages. How the heck are classes going to fix that?

[Matt]

Careful.  You may be treading a fine line.

On the one hand, I'm sure your last post (and others) tells exactly how you feel around her, and you have every right to those feelings.  If you were a woman or a child, everyone would give you the benefit of the doubt.

But if you are bigger and stronger, and male, it may not work that way.  Many people simply do not believe that a woman is a threat to a man, or that a man's fear of a woman could be reasonable.

Women commit DV about as often as men, and it's a myth that women are hurt more than men;  women are more likely to pick up an object, so they cause about as many injuries to men as men do to women.  All these basic assumptions that most people walk around with - in one state they literally changed the legal term for "domestic violence" to "male pattern abuse" - none of them are based on reality.

But... .  people aren't even conscious that they hold these baseless assumptions - ":)V means a man hurting a woman" - "Very few men are attacked by women" - "A woman may hit a man but she can't hurt him" - etc.  The words of the law in most states are neutral, but the reality isn't.

So... .  you may have to find a way to tell your truth without it being dismissed out of hand.

One way I've done this - but my truth may be different than yours - is to acknowledge that in two DV incidents, both initiated by my ex, I was not harmed, and I never feared for my safety.  (She threw an iron at me, and damaged the wall, and ruined the iron.  But I told the officer "She throws like a girl." and he laughed.)  I never claimed that I was injured or that I was afraid of being injured.

What I said was:

* She was out of control and the kids were in the house.  If she continued to act like that, something bad could happen.

* She initiated the incident and then accused me of a serious crime.  (If the officers had believed what she said - they found evidence proving it was false - they could have charged me with attempted murder and held me without bail for many months.)  So my main fear was (and is) that if there is another such incident she will be shrewder and more convincing, and it might take a long time to prove she's lying.  (I didn't enjoy my 16 hours of hard time.)

I'm not suggesting that you put your truth back in the box.  I think it's important that you talk openly about it, and if you tell your truth there is less risk that your story might seem to vary.

I'm only suggesting that you consider how every word you say about this is likely to be perceived by those (like my first attorney!) who have never experienced woman-on-man DV.  Your credibility could be lost very quickly, even though every word you say is true.

[livednlearned]

Yeah, maybe describing feeling "unsafe" won't work in your favor.

It's unfair. Until I came to bpdfamily.com, I had the same bias about men and DV. When I talk to friends about what I've learned here about BPD mothers and the abuse they inflict on men, few of them buy it, much less have any sympathy. When Robert Kennedy Jr.'s ex-wife (Mary) killed herself, the mainstream response was that she was the victim, not him (she was a trained boxer). But when you read the affadavit that Kennedy wrote, he describes textbook BPD behavior, and she was diagnosed by a psychologist. It only makes sense if you understand BPD, and PDs aren't well understood, if at all, by most people.

www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/robert-kennedy-jr-wifes-family-nasty-feud/story?id=16542795#.UOTxA3PjlK4

You might be better off being specific about what your ex is doing, as opposed to how you are feeling. "BPDex makes repeated false accusations that have no basis in fact or reality. She uses threats and intimidation. Her anger and rage makes the sessions unproductive."

Your L sounds like mine. When I hesitated about the PC in our case (who is a psychologist), my L said it would work in my favor. It has. N/BPDx has acted out in spectacular ways. The difference is that the PC has some power in my situation, and is not trying to pretend that the arrangement is therapeutic. Don't lose heart if you can't get out of coparenting, just be aware that it's part of the chess game of family court and is about building evidence, not learning how to coparent.

[DivDad]

Married and Divorced a BPD. Children involved.  Been to court 3 times. Won all stipulations and contempt motions.

Very important... .  You need to document all emails, text messages (photo the texts to a camera that shows date and times) and keep a log of events and summary of phone converstaions.  It is very important to log things in a sequence of event.  Blines get tripped up with their stories when you have documentation on when things happened and what was said, etc. in a sequence of events. Even hours in a day... is important.   It's very revealing to the court when you present your issues... .  and outline the "she said, he said" sequence of events to the court.

Also, obtain (hire) a GAL (Guardian ad Litem).  Get the Bline to pay half.  Make sure the GAL is an attorney... .  and not a social worker. Very important.   That is, you have an attorney... .  your Bline has an attorney... .  and the GAL is the attorney for the kids.  GALs have broad powers to investiage the minors home, documents, teachers,  neighbors, etc.    The GAL have as much weight in a courtroom as the parent attornies... .  if not more.  The GAL report to the court is important. Your documented journal and sequence of event, and interviews with surrounding people... .  weights heavy in a courtroom.  I went thur therapists, and all that.   Sometimes they help, sometimes they are intimated in a courtroom.   A GAL attorney... .  knows what the court and can be a great ally to you.

As most know, therapists sometimes have a hard time IDing a Borderline because they are so convincing with their lies.   A GAL attorney is schooled in fact finding and court proceedings.

[sfbayjed]

It is complicated. It is not like I am afraid of her beating me up. I am just afriad of what she could do if I were to meet her outside, she is unpredictable and angry.   It is a fine line. I do not want to seem like I am being difficult but I need to be careful .Prehaps i should attend and simply be reasonable and ignore her comments. That is kind of what I did last time too.   

i was thinking earlier about just asking the therapist to establish boundries is session.  I see your point. If I called and say i am afraid of a woman they might think i am not being honest. My credability being better than hers is one of the major things I have going for me now.   Between us though, I seriously am afraid of her and I am not ashamed to admit it either.     

 

[BentNotBroken]

And you should be afraid of her. If I remember correctly, she had you falsely arrested before. You took a plea, and it has caused you all sorts of problems. Her family is "angry with you"--most likely due to the lies stbex has told them, probably for years.

Why is her mother showing up at these sessions anyway? It is none of her concern, and the presence of a relative that is hostile to you is likely an attempt by you ex to intimidate you. Her mother may even be a patsy in this, only showing up because stbex is falsely claiming to be "deathly afraid of you."

Please be careful, and don't give her the benefit of the doubt. I made that mistake too many times.

[Matt]

A couple more thoughts... .  

One is, you hint in your last post at a strategy which might be a very good one - being pretty passive and silent in the sessions.  Let the other party talk as much as possible.  The therapist will try to draw you out, and you'll want to cooperate with that, but maybe you can give relatively short, true answers, and mostly just listen to the other party.

That way, you'll be complying with the court order, and cooperating with the therapist, but mostly you'll be letting the other party show her colors.

Along these lines, I would strongly suggest that you bring a notebook, and take notes.  :)ate the page, and when the other party is talking, make bullet points about things you want to address.  That helps me not to interrupt.  And if there are any false statements or accusations, write them down right at the moment, word-for-word if possible.  Then when it's your turn, read it back:  "A minute ago, Ms. Jed said 'Jed did such-and-such.'  I wrote it down here because I wanted to be fair and accurate, and make sure I remembered exactly what was said.  This statement is false.  I have never done such-and-such, and Ms. Jed cannot produce any evidence that I have.  This is the kind of false accusation which I think is keeping these sessions unproductive."

Then stop, and look at the therapist, not the other party.  The point being, it's the therapist's job to manage the sessions so they will be productive.  By looking her right in the face, you will be challenging her to do that, and she'll probably get that, and rise to the challenge.

If you continue to do that, session after session, they'll both get the point, and you'll be gathering evidence.  If you can later call the therapist as a witness, you can refer back to those notes - "Ms. T, on January 2 of this year, in your session with Mr. Jed and Ms. Jed, did Ms. Jed say, 'Jed did such-and-such.'?"  Since you highlighted the accusation at the time, and showed the T that you are taking notes so you know exactly what was said, she'll probably remember and confirm what she heard.  You can then show that the accusations are false - or at least that they are not backed up by any evidence - and your ex's credibility will fall even further.

It's sad that these sessions are more useful as ways to prepare for trial than as ways to be better parents, but that may be the case, until your ex gets diagnosed and treated.

One final point... .  You're going to be careful about how and when you state your truth - that you are in fear of her - but there may be another way to communicate it that is better than saying it in so many words.  And that is, acting very consistently like someone who is both afraid and wise.

As an example, when we settled, one of the last things I asked for, was to do all the driving;  when it's time for the kids to go to Mom's house, I take them there, and then pick them up on the agreed day and time.  100% of the time, at first - I had that written into the settlement, though I'm not perfectly disciplined about it now - sometimes I let their mom drop them off and pick them up at my house.

The reason I did that was so there would be no reason for my ex to ever be in my neighborhood.  When I moved, I even considered not telling her where I lived, but that wouldn't have been practical - the kids were already 12 and 14 so they would tell her the address, and I would look weird.  But I have made it clear she is not welcome to come into my house for any reason.  (She violated that a few years ago and I consulted my lawyer and followed his advice to make sure she wouldn't do it again.)

If she is in my home, and melts down, I have a huge problem.  She could attack my physically, as she has done in the past, or throw things at me, or break my stuff.  I would have no way to get her out of the house;  if I touched her she would be sure to call the police and accuse me of DV.  Getting her out of the house once she is disregulated might be impossible, so it's better to never let her in the house in the first place.

I'm giving this as an example of a discipline that you can adopt, and practice 100% consistently, so others will see that you are acting like someone who has reason to be concerned.  For you, it might be best to never be alone with her, anywhere, without a non-family adult third party present.  Arrive to therapy, court etc. well in advance and remain in the waiting area where there are people around, and then wait til she is gone to leave.  Etc. - show by your actions that you have this very valid concern, based on what has happened, and that you are wise enough and disciplined enough to take steps to minimize the risk going forward.

I'm not saying you should never call it by its right name - "In Month/year Ms. Jed did such-and-such, and I am concerned that could happen again, so I minimize the contact between us, and do my best to avoid being alone with her." - when and how you think best.

Only that actions will speak louder than words.

[livednlearned]

Great point by matt -- bring a notebook with you. Even symbolically, writing things down in the session while your T and stbx watch is powerful.

Does it make sense in your sessions to ask the T to set some ground rules? Ask the T how you should handle false allegations. Ask her what you should do when your stbx cannot control her anger and rage. What should you do when she threatens you? Maybe show your T that you are the reasonable party who wants to problem-solve. And when T tells you what to do, and it doesn't work (because your ex is BPD), then your T will have 1) your interest in solving problems; 2) her clear guidelines for how to respond; and then 3) your ex's demonstrated inability to follow those guidelines.

What you want is to feel protected during your CP sessions and that probably isn't going to happen, especially while you're flooded with PTSD. But you can use these sessions strategically to protect yourself legally. That process might kickstart the deep healing that happens for many of us when we start to get some control back in our lives.

[DivDad]

Commenting on your statement, "I am just afriad of what she could do if I were to meet her outside, she is unpredictable and angry."

When going thru a divorce... .  and one has moved out of the house... .  always meet a Borderline in a neutral place where there are lots of people.  Coffee shop, etc.   Make no exceptions. Again, make no exceptions.

Borderlines have no problem throwing themselves down on the ground and filing a police report that you hit them.  Rememer, they are great actors... .  and very convincing with their lies. They love chaos.  There are scores of stories. I am one of them.  Never get in a one-on-one situation or place... .  where it's your word against a Borderline as to what physically happened.  Be in a neutral place where unrelated witnesses can vouch for what happened.     

[sfbayjed]

I had another session with her this morning, it is once a week now.  I brought a notebook with me but never got to take many notes because very little got done.  She simply used it to blindside  me with a copy of the 30 days notice she gave the landlord.   We had court last month and it was ordered that pending the outcome of the custody eval that the kids would remain in the family home and us parents move in and out. Her and her lawyer also agreed that she would pay the rent and the utilities on the house that we share with the kids as part of the comprimise.    Now 2 1/2 weeks later she gives 30 day notice to the landlord.   Dirty pool,  it is an attempt to use her economic advantage.    

I am not going anywhere though, not unless the sherriff comes and tells me I have to leave, I could pay the rent for a few months. I need to talk to the lawyer about this.   They are out of the office until monday.

Some background:  We both leased the place together 1 1/2 years ago but when she renewed the lease last June she did not put my name on it.

 This therapist doesnt seem to get it either. I am seriously thinking about requesting a different one.  

I also learned that she is not doing on of her jobs anymore because "they didnt offer it to me this semester"   Yeah right.   So she is just working part time.  

I swear the only thing these sessions are is an oppurtinity for her to engage me in drama.  

[livednlearned]

I swear the only thing these sessions are is an oppurtinity for her to engage me in drama.  

That's awful. I feel for you, sfbayjed. I came close to having to do the same thing, and can imagine how much dread you must feel about going.

Is she paying for the coparenting therapy? Can you revisit this with your L and suggest changing the T, or telling him that stbx is now pt, and given how ineffective this all is, and the fact she has not started anger management, that you postpone the coparenting therapy?

[ForeverDad]

So... .  where will the "family home" be, besides on paper? That's the question for the lawyer IMO.

[peace]

I am under no illusion that anger management is going to do anything for her. I also told my lawyer this. I am almost certain it is not going to do her anygood. Her eyes change when she goes into rages. How the heck are classes going to fix that?

I agree with you - classes are not going to fix this. The problem is that too many people in the court-system and child service know nothing about how living with a BPD (w/NPD traits) actually is like. Therapists have read about it - but the truth is - unless you've experienced it, you don't really understand. Unfortunately, a few of us have though, that is why this page is so valuable and important. Finally, we find somebody that gets it! Realizing that the 'system' that should protect you and your kids is not working is truely a traumatic experience and is in my view the reason why so many of us become depressed.

I wish you and the kids all the best! Hang in there - I sure do!  

[Matt]

Realizing that the 'system' that should protect you and your kids is not working is truely a traumatic experience and is in my view the reason why so many of us become depressed.

Very true.

I think one way to look at it is that we can't assume the system will get to the right answer, but if we understand enough about how the system works - which is different in different places - and if we find the right attorney, then we can work through the system to get a good outcome.  Much more difficult than it should be - my observation when I was going through it was that the system favors those who make the most extreme accusations and those who refuse to bargain in good faith - but in the end if we do everything we can the results will probably be OK.

Looking back, if I had done everything then that I know now, I think my results would have been very good.

[sfbayjed]

I am going through it now, so I appreciate any advice.  I feel like I need to go for as much custody as I can get regardless of what the odds seem like. Only because I really think it is the best thing for the kids.   Otherwise I would be looking to cut a deal at this point.  It would be easier for me. She has to come up with the custody evaluation money, 8K according to her, this week (or so she says).   So she may be open to a deal at this point.  She said something today about doing 50/50 and giving 4K to find a place.   I dont believe it.  I have no idea what will happen in a CE. I might have to pay back 1/2 of it and it may end up 50/50 anyway, like last time.  

But I screwed up my life by taking a deal one time, do I want to screw up my kids lives by taking a deal now?  Or do I just go for it and do what I think is right regardless.  I am not perfect, for sure, my life is a mess, no job(for now), had trouble with the law, I leave dishes in the sink, sometimes I let the kids have orange soda and  I let them watch too much TV on a friday night.  I connect with those kids though on a level that my ex just never will, I can see and feel that and I know it's true. I have no dought that she knows it too on some level.  It's evident in all her compensations.  I just wish others involved could see it too.    

She is being very persistant in keeping her time and dr. appts and everything.  To her it is a competition at this point. She will bring her A game, Mrs. parent of the year.  "What rages?, I don't go into rages."    

[ForeverDad]

I am under no illusion that anger management is going to do anything for her. I also told my lawyer this. I am almost certain it is not going to do her any good. Her eyes change when she goes into rages. How the heck are classes going to fix that?

I agree with you - classes are not going to fix this. The problem is that too many people in the court-system and child service know nothing about how living with a BPD (w/NPD traits) actually is like.

Be aware that they could will simply assume that completing the AM classes will resolve her issues.  You know and we all know that a band-aid like that won't fix her, at least not for long.  She would need years of therapy and even that might not help.  How do you have court avoid having the issues considered 'resolved' and legally 'ignored' for future court decisions?

I faced a similar dilemma in divorce.  My ex did some things worthy of Contempt of Court decisions.  But my lawyer warned me that if a decision was made at that time, then the issues would have been considered "resolved" if we went to trial.  It was a catch 22... .  if she got contempt decisions and we went to trial then they they were legally resolved... .  if we let the judge hold the contempt decisions and then didn't go to trial, they she would never have faced her deserved consequences.  As it turned out, we settled on Trial Day and she skated on her consequences.

Side point, my lawyer told me that Contempt cases post-divorce were considered much more seriously.

So if at all possible try to find a way where her taking AM classes doesn't legally undo or 'fix' the findings of the mediator.  Somehow you need slight preference or a watchful eye looking out for the kids in the future.  Do your best to ensure you don't give up being Residential Parent.  Yes, the court could decide otherwise, court could prefer the mother over you, very unlikely with the actions thus far, but I wouldn't 'deal' it away, no way!  (Lots of mothers with questionable income options are RPs and have majority time!  So her claiming your financial situation is weak should not be something to hinder you!)