Please help me re high-functioning BPD and an interesting twist

[novaguy]

I have read these boards extensively and need help with the specifics of my situation.

I'm no stranger to being with someone with BPD. Previously, I was with someone who was in very bad shape, formally diagnosed with BPD, in and out of hospitals. It was text book and she wasn't that intelligent (more just average) so I didn't get caught up in twisted realities.

Yes, I'm the common denominator but now I find myself with what I believe is a BPD (perhaps with NPD too) but much higher functioning and extremely intelligent. These last few days/weeks/months have been horrible and I'm seeking help from this forum to figure out what to do. Our lives are intertwined in as many and as complex ways as one can possibly imagine - except that we don't have children together. I'm worried about everything falling apart.

She has the classic background - emotionally underdeveloped as a child because she didn't have a safe environment in which to mature. She also was physically abused by parents. As a young teen she turned to sex, alcohol, and rock n' roll as an escape (very extreme, with men 15 years her senior, etc.)

But when I met her she was a smart, fun, successful young woman. Being suicidal wasn't even on her radar screen. But on the other hand she displayed what I think from research are hallmarks of a 'higher functioning' pwBPD. In effect she operates in a world that she believes is out to get her. Everything is a zero-sum game to her. Everyone has disappointed her in her life because of "their issues". The few "good friends" she has are superficial relationships based around drinking. But she even bad mouths those friends. I've never heard someone with such negative views of everyone in their life. It is offensive because my world view is the opposite.

A few weeks of bliss in the beginning - and a few weeks is all it was. Then she had 'chosen' me. But because things were so high-functioning, I was truly sucked in too. The thing that kills me is we really became best friends too, and we really had fun together, and talked deeply, and seemed like we could be a real team. I've been the rescuer before but in this case it didn't seem I had to be. She was responsible, etc. and it seemed it would be an equal partnership.

We started to slip into what I now realize was the clingy phase. Things started upsetting her tremendously and she even would remark how she doesn't understand why she's getting so upset about things, that she never had before. Feelings of jealousy - totally irrational jealousy (as in, laughable if I gave an example) - started developing and she said she had never been the jealous type before. I started getting isolated from everyone.

But I still loved the relationship because it was more high functioning than anything I had been in before. It did feel like we were a team.

Now as she trusted me more, that's when all this about her past started coming up. And that's when the crazy episodes started happening. But she'd always apologize afterwards, crying, and she meant it. Even though I had dealt with someone with BPD before, I still didn't think that was the case here. I considered it, but thought I was being silly to start thinking now my current SO had BPD too. I chalked it up to being emotionally immature, a bit emotionally unstable, troubled from her past (and not having resolved those feelings), and just never having been in a serious/healthy relationship and being 'allowed' to feel things for the first time. I lived for her apologies though because they were the only thing that made me be able to stand it. Things got so bad and crazy, but then she'd come to my arms crying and apologizing and it turned out she knew exactly each 'crazy' thing she was thinking. There was no distortion of reality in those lucid moments. They gave me relief... .and hope.

Things started coming to a head and during a 2-3 period there was total lucidity, not just the brief apology-lucidity that was event-specific, but an overall, sustained period where she realized everything and took accountability. This is the twist. And that period has captivated me. We had long conversations and she wrote long letters explaining that she knows she's being awful and it's ruining us. She vowed to change. At first it might not seem like a twist. But this is not the cyclical stuff one reads so much about. This was just a single moment of time where it seemed everything was going to turn and she realized EVERYTHING. I read this one letter from her over and over again now for comfort.

But then within days of this period, it was a suddent change to the "Hater" phase. And this period has grown worse in intensity every week. It's like she reached that lucid period but just couldn't handle the accountability, and suddenly it went to an all-out rebellion against me. Now the rules constantly change, it's exhausting. The threads about apology requirements describe my situation perfectly. But she's so intelligent, the thing "du jour" that she is upset about always has a hint of truth to it and she has successfully put me in a state where I'm questioning everything. I tremble a bit on the inside every time I see her or she calls because I'm wondering if there's something she might be mad at. I try to stay ahead of everything I can think of that might cause a rage. The thing that makes me realize she's being irrational is that I compare the situation with that of every other relationship I know of and I realize that I'm not so bad. But she seems so convinced and is so adamant and fights so hard, that her reality becomes 'the truth' and I'm forced to operate within it.

Here's the thing though. Does the fact that she's so high functioning make it more possible for things to change? And more importantly, what do i make of that couple of weeks of lucidity? It's easy to dismiss it but it was so powerful and it's the thing that gave me hope that this relationship that once had so much promise might be possible. I've seen people write about BPDs having moments of clarity or regretting things they said/did or even cycling between "loving" and "hating". But I've never seen reference to a single period in time where the person took reasonable accountability , implemented all kinds of structural changes in their life to improve their negative emotions, and said this was the relationship they wanted forever and they were going to stop ruining its chances for survival.

That light came on and just as amazingly as it came on, it was shortly thereafter gone... .and since then consistently it's been like a continuous controlled rage of putting me into a box and beating me down until she has full control. If things truly end, I'll always miss the beginning, the dreams we had together, the beautiful memories, etc. But I could put that in a balanced perspective, knowing that it would almost be easier to just be alone than accept the 'full package' if the full package was truly going to involve the anger, etc. all the time too.

But what I'm afraid of is that period of calm, rational lucidity will forever haunt me, making me think I shouldn't have left, that there was hope, that I should have kept trying.

Please tell me if I'm fooling myself. Or whether it's ridiculous to put up with what might be months or even years of being beaten up only because I am chasing after a realization she once had but maybe never will return to.

[Washisheart]

I think we are all hanging onto realities that don't exist.

Mine showed up where he knew I would be, tears in his eyes. The whole "you're a good woman, you don't deserve what I put you through" only to put me through it again 7 months later. Only next time there was an oversized heaping of humiliation to go with that pain.

Now, as much as I beg God to bring him back, when he is here I don't trust him. The last time he left (almost 2 weeks ago) ,i got a text that said "it's that time of the year again." Like it's a joke! He KNOWS how much this hurts me, he has seen my pain.

I would say if you're still detached enough from the relationship to escape unscathed then RUN.

[artman.1]

novaguy,

     I have been married to my UBPDW for the last 44 years.  Went together 4 years before that.  About3 to 4 years into marriage, she painted me BLACK.  I have been BLACK for the last 40+ years.  About two years ago, I was told by a therapist that I am Codependent, and she is BPD.  She is high functioning.  I never came back from BLACK.  I did stop the rages, but she has denied all Intimacy for the last 37 years, and even refused my advances of hugs etc...   She stopped her part of intimacy when she painted me black.  She has had affairs in the past.  I really do not know for sure about more than only two affairs.  I accept she will not change, and I am working on my Codependence in CODA and with my Therapist.  Hope this helps a little.

Art

[novaguy]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Art, your comment struck a cord with me. Thank you for sharing that. I've often thought about how I could spend the rest of my life sort of "at her mercy" and it's a role I don't want. I always want to 'keep the peace', people tell me I have the longest fuse of anyone they've ever met, that I'm always calm, putting others in front of me, etc. The truth is I don't want to change those characteristics, I want to be with someone who reciprocates. With my current SO, those characteristics would lead to her setting the rules and dominating the rest of our lives. I've thought about how she'll likely have affairs too, like you mention. She already has no problem lying to me and justifies almost any type of moral transgression through a self-created construct under which she's the victim.

I'm sorry to hear about what you have gone through. It's humbling too, I have endured so much less than you have.

Maybe I just don't want to accept that I should leave, but I feel so tempted to think that my situation is different because I still can get her to be happy if I do everything right. And then there's my general optimism about everyone... .I can tell that underneath her BPD craziness (including anger, etc) she's a hurting person who does genuinely want to be happy. If she just could 'realize' the path to happiness can be reached without controlling/anger/hostility and the rages.

It's amazing how it seems generally everyone on this Board is a sensitive, good, caring person (to a fault)... .far more than the average person... .these BPDs are with people who *want* to care for them and love them. They don't even need to expend all this energy manipulating and being angry, they're with the people most likely to give them what they need deep down just by asking or explaining what they need.

[123Phoebe]

Hi novaguy

Sounds like you've got a sturdy grasp of what being in a relationship with a pwBPD can be like.  Pretty intense, which really speaks to us in a bizarre way... .

But what I'm afraid of is that period of calm, rational lucidity will forever haunt me, making me think I shouldn't have left, that there was hope, that I should have kept trying.

Please tell me if I'm fooling myself. Or whether it's ridiculous to put up with what might be months or even years of being beaten up only because I am chasing after a realization she once had but maybe never will return to.

This is the turning point, for you, for us 'nons' who decide whether or not we're going to try and make a go of this, knowing that this will be no ordinary relationship... .

On this site there are lessons, workshops, communication tools, etc... ; proven skills we can learn to incorporate into our lives, that when put into practice can really truly make the relationship more balanced and fulfilling.  Have you delved into any of this yet?

Before You Can Make Things Better, You have To Stop Making Things Worse

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

Do you think your girlfriend would consider specialized therapy - DBT?  

Do you have a strong sense of who you are and what you're willing to put up with, tolerate?  Or have your boundaries been pushed back to accomodate your girlfriend's shape-shifting?  If so, you can learn how to un-do that

Please stick around and continue to post.  As you can already see, you'll get a lot of feedback from other members that are going through similar scenarios who will be more that willing to share their experiences.  You'll gain a lot of perspective... .

I'm glad you're here,

123Phoebe

[Justadude]

I am interested in hearing what she was trying to explain to you in her letters. I understand the rages. I understand the identity mismatch, you thought she was a, but she's really not a, more like b. I feel for you on the walking on egg shells. I get all that. Now I even get your struggle to come to terms with the end of this relationship, which really, you do need specialized counseling on, at least I did. It is so hard on your own and so emotionally and mentally confusing where it leaves you physically drained.

What I really, really want to know is about those little details between the lines. What were these things that triggered her you mentioned ""things" upset her tremendously". What were those things? She didn't feel secure in the relationship. Why? What was it about her past in detail that caused her lack of security in an intimate relationship that she needed to deal with? Can you share that here?

[slop]

She may be smarter and higher-functioning than your previous girlfriend with BPD, but the disability is the same.  It doesn't matter if a paraplegic is smart or dumb, either way, they won't be able to walk.

Just because she can justify her lies better than the dumb one, doesn't mean she's any healthier or able to get over her BPD.  She just does a better job at stringing you along - but she's damaged all the same. The more you realize that it's ALWAYS about her, and NEVER about you, the more you'll be able to see her BS and be able to get away and move on.

[novaguy]

Justadude,

Wanted to reply earlier, but with the Board crash I ended up being away from this for a while.

You asked about the "things" that started to upset her tremendously. Well what I was referring to in that paragraph there were the early more subtle things. Like once she went through old stuff I had in storage (this was just a few months into the relationship) and she found a picture of me and an ex. For background, she knew about this ex so there were no secrets there. Nevermind the fact that she was going through my stuff (didn't even know I still had that picture). Nevermind that she still has entire albums of her ex's. But it drove her crazy. On the basis of that innocent picture she spiraled out of control, saying that I had lied about everything, this picture proved that I really thought that ex was "the one" (not the case at all!). For some time after she said she couldn't stop thinking about it, would cry about it, etc. Finally one day she admitted she did not know why it was upsetting her so much.

The jealousy regarding any interaction with any member of the opposite gender started getting worse. Without being asked I withdrew from all personal friendships with the opposite gender, leaving only workplace interactions. Then she started questioning those - without discrimination towards who it was. She once got jealous over a friendly interaction I told her about with a woman decades older than me - started screaming at me and wouldn't speak to me for hours.

It started upsetting her if I saw my male friends too, despite that she had said in the beginning explicitly that she was not one of those girls that didn't understand a guy's desire to have some "guy time".

The controlling got worse and worse. Around the house, if I forgot to use a coaster, I'd be screamed at and told that I am an "a$$hole" who doesn't care about anything she does. But what was odd, was that sometimes I'd be the one who had last cleaned and she actually would forget that, thinking it was her. And because I'm quite clean and neat myself, it literally was things like failing to use a coaster.

I could plan an extravagant outing, but the most innocent of comments could set her off and literally ruin an entire evening. We talk about them living in the moment, and with her it was almost like she was so captivated by her own negative feelings in any given moment, she was blind. Imagine planning a "pull out all the stops" evening, then suggesting she take a coat because it might get cold, and being accused of being condescending for supposedly implying she doesn't know how to dress and the entire evening spiraling into yelling that I'm an offensive "a$$hole" who is ruining her life.

And you said you're interested in hearing what she was trying to explain in her letters. It was that she was deep down depressed and angry at the world, that she didn't know how to hold those negative feelings at bay. That she knew she was pushing me away with her rages and that she wanted to stop. That she loved me and couldn't ask for a better partner in life but was ruining everything by letting her negativity pour into our relationship. They read almost as a layperson's comprehensive... and accurate... .assessment of how her BPD affects her relationships... .followed by a commitment to make it stop.

People on here say that we have to be careful about the promises, and instead look for the actions. I saw all the actions she took to help herself, I thought that counted as action and I genuinely thought they'd make her be nicer to me. Of course, all those actions were about her. But it didn't change how she treated me.

Things have gotten far worse since my initial posting. I'm just so tired of being treated horribly. Yet I'm both (a) foolishly optimistic that there's a possibility that that clarity in her mind she had could return and (b) terrified that she really attacks me (she's even admitted to being a vengeful person - who says that!).

[SeekerofTruth]

Key Question(s): (a.)  How long have you and her "been together"? - what is the length of your relationship with her?

                         (b.)  How long have you known one another?  (rhetorical but, gets at how soon did the 2ofU hook up?)

[waverider]

Justadude,



And you said you're interested in hearing what she was trying to explain in her letters. It was that she was deep down depressed and angry at the world, that she didn't know how to hold those negative feelings at bay. That she knew she was pushing me away with her rages and that she wanted to stop. That she loved me and couldn't ask for a better partner in life but was ruining everything by letting her negativity pour into our relationship. They read almost as a layperson's comprehensive... and accurate... .assessment of how her BPD affects her relationships... .followed by a commitment to make it stop.

At times total lucidity is possible. BUT that does not mean they are capable of putting a stop to how they feel or act. So continuing to admit to something they cant fix is overwhelming. The only course of action is to quarantine it. They do this by going into denial and projection, effectively pushing the problem away. The truth is just too hard to live with. To stay in that lucid zone is to fall into hopelessness and depression.

When my partner eventually accepted diagnosis, she felt it validated that everything was her screw up, always was, always is, always will be. Follow this by no obvious easy path to fix it, and it has been endless ODs since. There are only 2 ways out of this, put in the hard yards of treatment(I dont think she has the drive for that), or retreat back into denial

It takes total ongoing commitment to treatment to overcome this, but the catch 22 is that it takes that ongoing acknowledgement in the first place to have that commitment

[SeekerofTruth]

Whole-heartedly agree with waverunner.  If you decide to stay and be healthy, you have to know about Projection, otherwise you are likely to loose, loose your sense of self, and loose badly.  And that is a steep price to pay.

[SeekerofTruth]

novaguy

You came here asking, looking for answers.

Things have gotten far worse since my initial posting. I'm just so tired of being treated horribly. Yet I'm both (a) foolishly optimistic that there's a possibility that that clarity in her mind she had could return and (b) terrified that she really attacks me (she's even admitted to being a vengeful person - who says that!).

You may have answered your questions.

If you had a choice, or were given a choice to choose: would you rather live and experience your self and your precious lifetime in a state of mind that finds you:

a.)  foolish and terrified

b.)  true and wise

c.)  far worse, tired-exhausted, treated horribly, foolishly, terrified, under attack, ridiculous, chasing maybe never

d.)  true, wise, free, merciful, tender, kind, responsible, loving, caring, emotionally healthy, happy, courageous

e.)_fill in the blank "________________________________________ "

Please tell me if I'm fooling myself. Or whether it's ridiculous to put up with what might be months or even years of being beaten up only because I am chasing after a realization she once had but maybe never will return to.

Again, you may have answered your own request for feedback.   However, if I may be direct, while I do not personally know of your situation, you may be fooling yourself in that perhaps, rather than chasing after a "realization" you may be chasing after a "fantasy". 

Therefore, if I may be straight forward perhaps bold, but well intended, my suggestion... .Grow up.  On these boards, I've re-learned the importance of "reparenting" or self-talk (aka: "auxilary ego" to our inner selves in our most nurturing protective kind hearted voices as an essential skill in order for us to have more empowered access to a process of being true to ourselves, others, and the world as best we can in order to function as healthy/healthier, happy/less sad adults.   Also, how we mirror back is huge.

Much more to say about high-functioning BPD, and yes she also has a NPD flavor.  A tremendous paradox. I am also very proud, confident, and happy for my wife's career achievement, honestly amazed at how advanced her skill set, integrity, and contribution in the context of her career leadership functionality have become.  It truly warms my heart because i know she is genuine and capable in contributing to transformation of workplace cultures in healthier more functional, orderly, progressive ways.  Guess, i wound up living vicariously thru her in ways. just bizarre. The thing is, inside our close relationship its another story... .and under increased stress, constriction, conflict, or confrontation... .watch out!

8 years in for me... .but only learned of / discovered confirmation of disorder about 8 weeks ago.  But I knew all along perhaps, certainly at least 4-5 years ago was in a love-hate relationship, was thrown by her high functioning, tender loving, vulnerable side... .does that make sense?  But as that Nick Cave song that I am still searching for says where he belts out " I was a fool, babe.  I was bllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnddd".  Round here they call it FOG i believe.

Also, noticed you mentioned this is not your first BPD relationship with a SO.  Hmmm... .  mine either.   What might be the hook?  What's your agenda?  When I met mine, she told she was a manhater… well I can change that is what my ego said.

If i may share, only because i think it might help get at some more underlying stuff of what you might find helpful in terms of what you might more realistically be able to take ownership of if any chords ring true in terms of insight.  I've always known i had an addictive personality. But i did not know how Codependent I was.  That's really come out of the closet in this relationship for me.  Also, am a Healer/Hero/Rescuer typology with a side of romantic/lover, throw in some masochistic and narcissitic traits of my own, heck likely B traits as well, but have ADD... .and next thing ya know I'm finding my self on this site... .seeking truth.  Beginning  individual therapy now to address... .because i want to be in an emotionally healthy relationship and to be an emotionally healthy, loving, happy person and partner.   My stuff goes back to my deceased dad.  He was my emotional abuser.  While he was admired, respected, and well-liked by those he came in contact with professionally and socially outside the home... .inside my house growing up, he was an emotionally abusive tyrant whose scars i thought i had healed... .but covered up.  Similar to wife who has been able to deeply hide her disorder.  Sitting across from my dad at the kitchen table, I learned to look askance.  It was like walking on eggshells almost all the time. As a teenager I already thought it had to do with his amygdala, going through war, and being orphaned... .and so I thought I knew better  , I raised above, worked towards compassion, and yet was very hurt/wounded all the while becoming the overachiever.  It also attracted me to my wife, who overcame an even more dysfunctional and abusive FOO.  Even worse, he would invalidate me and tell me "I was seeing ghosts", when I was concerned about the inappropriate type of affection he displayed towards my sister (BPD-low functioning).  So i guess i grew up in a dysfunctional family system in denial.

With the codependence thing and being a natural caregiver but sucking at caring for myself i learned the hard way about putting my wife and my marriage first, instead of taking care of me... .= not a good thing. Instead it contributes to MY dysfunction.

Don't know how far or deep you’re in... .do you have the courage to walk away?

You may have to do it for your self.  There's the rub.  Can you put yourself first in a nurturing, healthy, fair, adult responsible way?

Most of these  boards suggest the odds are stacked against us.  There are certain compromises we make to stay but even much greater risks... .to our sanity, sense of self, sense of self-worth, self-respect, as the collective experience on these boards remind us of.  It's hard to say, and even harder to see... .but generally with an untreated unrecognized high functioning-acting out BPD- without realizing it... .they may be looking to be as destructive as they can be in your life, wrestling away as much of or all control... .feeding off anxiety (fear, terror, worry, anxiousness) and chaos.  Its a crazy love and in that regard self-defeating.  And yet I love my woman.  I want to be able to love her down to the core.  To see her thru the other side of hell even though I know she can’t do the same for me.  But I love her enough to let her go. 

You don't want to be like this guy... .

song: ":)ifficult Woman" by Paul Kelly

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjFvhr_vbOo

or become a man like me... .a fool like me, obsessed and on fire, up all night digging, analyzing, trying to make sense... .when it’s all so much bigger and out of my control… and the toll its taking... .working thru discovery and realization of what is.


Hope this makes sense and responds to your inquiry in a meaningful and productive way you find useful in arriving at a decision.  Good luck!

Still arriving... .

Namaste

[MaybeSo]

Excellent post by Seeker

Novaguy, time to do some self examination.

My ex is much like your current gf. Very high functioning, can have great insight and want to change very badly.

But, meanwhile, he still has BPD. Insight and even real desire at times to change doesn't fix the disorder. He's been in therapy about 8 years now. He will always be, inbmy opinion, a very complex, very challenging person.

I do believe you are not truly facing the facts, that really, all people find it very difficult to change and that if any of us do change, it takes years and its slow, often agonizing process.

She is who she is.  Accept her as she is presenting, all of it,  all of it as it is.  Including her epiphanies that are followed by the hater phase. My ex does that a lot, too.  That's how it works.  That's what is real.

[maria1]

Yep- great advice from Maybe so and Seeker of Truth. My ex emailed me recently to tell me he was a b****** to me, that he'd used me and that he'd never forgive himself. He said "Only a totally heartless b*****d could forgive himself for what I did to you."

And that sentence of his says it all I think- he has to forgive himself to move on, to survive. If he faces up to being a heartless btch he will sink into depression because he has to take accountability for some pretty awful stuff he has done in his life.

A week later he posted a song on his FB account (he knows I peek occasionally to look for clues he's alive), 32 flavours- Ani de Franco. Song basically says this is who I am and there's nothing I can do about it.

Push/pull, face it/recoil because it's unbearable- similar dynamic

[hithere]

make it more possible for things to change? And more importantly, what do i make of that couple of weeks of lucidity?

NO! and those 2 weeks were her trying to keep hold of you.  High functioning BPD's have a strong ability to read the emotions of their victims and play them just right.

Please tell me if I'm fooling myself. Or whether it's ridiculous to put up with what might be months or even years of being beaten up only because I am chasing after a realization she once had but maybe never will return to.

Yes you are fooling yourself... .  we have all been there.

It's amazing how it seems generally everyone on this Board is a sensitive, good, caring person (to a fault

Of course and people with BPD especially high functioning ones, learn to exploit that to the max!

Your GF sounds a lot like my exBPD, hope you are not her latest victim, LOL.  But I am in Canada, so probably not!

[MaybeSo]

The victim-thing only goes so far. People do what they do; we get to decide what we want in our lives. People show you all the time who they are. It's our choice to live in denial and fantasy, or not. A pwbPD doesn't force denial and fantasy on us; we may or may not choose to participate in a fantasy for our own reasons. Many, like this original poster, have had more than one relationship of this nature... .  so, at some point, the victim has to start asking why he is so willing to play the victim role. Something about this is "working" for him.

[hithere]

the victim has to start asking why he is so willing to play the victim role. Something about this is "working" for him.

I agree!  I wanted to believe the fantasy and stayed way too long because of that.  I still see the next guy as a victim at the beginning, high functioning BPD's are very savvy in manipulating the right type of person though the idealization phase.

[downandin]

The victim-thing only goes so far. People do what they do; we get to decide what we want in our lives. People show you all the time who they are. It's our choice to live in denial and fantasy, or not. A pwbPD doesn't force denial and fantasy on us; we may or may not choose to participate in a fantasy for our own reasons. Many, like this original poster, have had more than one relationship of this nature... .  so, at some point, the victim has to start asking why he is so willing to play the victim role. Something about this is "working" for him.

I really don't agree completely.  I am not in denial or fantasy, but I am a very practical person.  From a practical perspective, I know that things are not going to be better between my wife and I, unless she decides to seek help for herself.  I also know that I love my kids and do not want to lose them.  I also know that I provide stability for them, and I do not want them to lose this.  I stay for a "hope" that she will change not a "fantasy," for a desire to keep my stepchildren in my life, and for a desire that they have me in theirs because they need me. 

[hithere]

I stay for a "hope" that she will change

After reading thousands of posts here and my personal experience I wonder if the above is not virtually the same thing as a fantasy.  I also think you can still provide stability to your kids if you are not together with your wife and you could possibly model a good, healthy relationship for them as well.  I know everyones circumstances are different but staying and hoping she will decide to change sounds like a long-shot to me.

[downandin]

The problem is that they are only my stepchildren, and if we split up, she would do everything in her power to keep me from seeing them, maybe even moving away.  I know she would. 

[hithere]

How old are they?  Maybe you can resume a relationship in the future?

Maybe move over to the staying board and see if they can help you... .  but you will be sacrificing your happiness for a long-time, maybe the rest of your life.

[downandin]

How old are they?  Maybe you can resume a relationship in the future?

Maybe move over to the staying board and see if they can help you... .  but you will be sacrificing your happiness for a long-time, maybe the rest of your life.

That is where I mostly post, but I really can't say that I am one way or the other, so I probably fit here better.  I don't want to stay, but I don't want to lose my kids and my house.  I love my wife, but we cannot communicate.  I guess it is how you define happiness... .  because it is a relative thing.

My kids make me happy.  My home makes me happy.  And my wife makes me happy when we are not fighting.  When we are fighting, or she is causing all other kinds of disarray in our life, I am not happy.  Being practical, I just live with this and let my health suffer from the stress so that I can have the practical happiness of my home and family.  And I will always put my kids before me no matter what.  For now, they need me or they will probably end up messed up too (it seems to run in her family).  

[maria1]

Downand in- the staying board could really help you handle it all better, for you and the kids. Whether or not you've decided there are invaluable tools on there and a huge support network to help you support your kids, yourself AND your wife.

[downandin]

Downand in- the staying board could really help you handle it all better, for you and the kids. Whether or not you've decided there are invaluable tools on there and a huge support network to help you support your kids, yourself AND your wife.

I know.  I just read here mostly.  I just do not believe I am just choosing to be a victim.  I have real reasons that push me toward staying.  I posted there, though, about my health concerns and didn't really get any great advice.  It pretty much comes down to this:  If I leave, I will lose my family and home that I have worked so hard to build.  If I stay, I may lose my physical health, so staying may prove to be completely fruitless.  I really don't know what to do.  I guess nobody can really help.  I just want it to be clear that I do not/did not chose to be a victim because of some fantasy.  Fate... .  maybe, fantasy... .  never!

[MaybeSo]

Down,

My reply was referring / responding to the original posters thread, Nova.

I do not see any comparison right now between Nova and your situation. Nova dated a former pwBPD and is now with another woman like this, just more high functioning. His situation is different, his question is specificly wondering if a HF individual who has epiphanies and is smart, will change, since her epiphanies Indicate a desire to change. He is observing no change, but hater phases after these epiphanies. My reply was geared toward his situation, not yours.

We could spend all day reading responses that don't seem to fit our unique situation  but it would be a time consuming endeavor.

Specific to your situation, I can say this. I co parented my ex's children, too. I have been in a similar situation to yours, and many on this board are married with bio children. Obviously this far into a relationship, things get more complex. It's not like you can easily go NC as you might with someone you were just dating. However, because your situation IS more complex, including your health issues, you really should be working through things on the Staying Board. The message people often don't like to hear on the Staying Board is this: Only one person is truly responsible for your happiness and quality of life and that is you. Not your wife, not your kids, YOU. Waiting for others to make you happy IS a recipe for feeling like a victim.  Inside or outside of any relationship, you choose your quality of life. Learning to take good care of yourself and learning to make yourself happy despite lifes challenges is the best gift you could give your kids.

[downandin]

I'm sorry if I offended you.  It sounds good, what you are saying, and I fight with this myself all the time.  Like I always say 'my wife must make herself happy... .  I can't do it for her.'  That is why I take it so personally.  So, I feel like I must take responsibility for my own situation... .  I just don't know what to do.  I'm sorry I bothered anyone.  It is really bad right now.    

My wife is a very high functioning professional, who also has 'epiphanies' and then goes back to hating, so that is why I read the post in the first place and why it does apply to me.  

[maria1]

Downandin

I don't think you are bothering anybody. I'd like you to find a way of using the advice and tools n the staying board. The tools work.

What's stopping you trying?

I tried moving to the staying board when I was trying to have a friendship with with my exBPD. I couldn't cope because I realised I didn't want to give our relationship that amount of work. I realised it wasn't my job to do that because I (selfishly) wouldn't reap any of the rewards. I didn't want to put any more effort into our relationship. It was too much for me emotionally.

But the communication tools do help in any contact we have. And I know absolutely that, had I stayed in the relationship I would have benefited from the support on there.

Why not try? You seem depressed as if you can't see a way out.

[downandin]

I don't think you are bothering anybody. I'd like you to find a way of using the advice and tools n the staying board. The tools work.

What's stopping you trying?

I think everyone is misunderstanding.  I have used all the tools on the staying board.  Yes, they do help.  It is just that, OK, I'll give the most recent example... .    We had a bad 'blowout' a week before Christmas and I was painted black.  I guess it has now gone to me being 'gray' instead of totally black, because she is not being so mean.  But every time I tell her I love her, she says... .  "No you don't."  That is it.  She won't say she loves me, just "No you don't."  That has been for over two weeks now.  It just seems that as far as "staying" or "leaving," I mean, really it is not all up to me.  Most pwBPDs are the ones who end relationships, not their partners.  Maybe there should be a 'limbo' group... .  because that is how I live each day.  It takes a toll.  I thought some here might understand my situation better than everyone on the "staying" board.  I just need support right now, and understanding, not communication tools.

[maria1]

I'm sorry Downandin-I misunderstood your situation.

I'm not a stayer but I would offer this.

When she says 'no you don't' what is it you want her to say/do? Can you post about your feelings around that on the staying board?

[SeekerofTruth]

Maybe so... .  thanks for being on this board, keeping it straight, and cutting to the chase.

The "lessons", wish i had the link to share- I saw the link to lessons posted on another board.  But, the Lessons here are fairly comprehensive.  These lessons entail hundreds of hours of effort to say the least... .  

whose got that kinda time?  

To maria's point:  It really is a struggle and tough realization to come to terms with, that the amount of time invested in SO And in effort toward the relationship can be too much emotionally... .  the tough decision for me is that is also ringing true.  What i really can't do nothing about is her, what i can really do something about is me.  But it aint happening while I'm obsessesed and neurologically trapped in her.  The tough decision is turning it over... .  and getting on with "it" no matter what.  Somehow along the way, the dream of partnership got compromised and became hurtful.  Nonetheless, the "it" being:  

Only one person is truly responsible for your happiness and quality of life and that is you. Not your wife, not your kids, YOU. Waiting for others to make you happy IS a recipe for feeling like a victim.  Inside or outside of any relationship, you choose your quality of life. Learning to take good care of yourself and learning to make yourself happy despite lifes challenges is the best gift you could give

I hope we have not lost nova.

So nova, best wishes in navigating your process. When the time and opportunity suits, I look forward to checking back on these boards and hearing an update from you.  Thanks for your post and the quality of responses it has inspired!  :)o keep us posted.  Lot's of us going thru similar dynamics, and a few have navigated to the other side of resolution, with lessons learned and wisdom shared.  good stuff.  Later all.  Maybe so... .  thanks for the essential reminder