recycle?

[Depression = 72% of members]

My HUSBAND just attempted his first "fishing" expedition with me. Last night.

He was trying to insinuate that if I straightened up and acted right I could "come back" (to him? to the marriage?) and we'd work on it.

BUT before that I would have to agree that I was at FAULT for all of it:

Him raging at me heaping threats, insults and abuse at me until I fled the home we shared.

Him listing and selling his house. (I was never on the title)

Him visiting a divorce lawyer before I had left the home then signing the retainer and pursuing the divorce-3 days after I left the house!

and now his subsequent failure to find an acceptable rental, for himself.

mind boggling.

He had stated over and over that it's over, he's done.

UNTIL last night. Last night-something changed, for him, at least.

I believe he mistook my willingness to OWN up to my part in the dysfunction as equal to me accepting BLAME.

For me, it was ALL too clear. It made me SAD, mostly. I want to believe he means well, but it will NOT work out. EVER. He cannot change-or I should say he changes TOO much! He has no stable sense of WHO he is and WHAT he wants. He will keep recycling the places, people and events in his life to make them new... .over and over.

And really... .Who would want to go BACK?

Back for more erratic behavior? More empty promises, more emotional/verbal abuse? More isolation?

I want to move Forwards. Not Backwards.

It's truly ONLY a mental illness that can convince him he was blameless and that I wronged HIM.

That he Had Nothing to do with ANY of this tragic ending he created.

It's just sad.

GL

[gina louise]

My HUSBAND just attempted his first "fishing" expedition with me. Last night.

He was trying to insinuate that if I straightened up and acted right I could "come back" (to him? to the marriage?) and we'd work on it.

BUT before that I would have to agree that I was at FAULT for all of it:

Him raging at me heaping threats, insults and abuse at me until I fled the home we shared.

Him listing and selling his house. (I was never on the title)

Him visiting a divorce lawyer before I had left the home then signing the retainer and pursuing the divorce-3 days after I left the house!

and now his subsequent failure to find an acceptable rental, for himself.

mind boggling.

He had stated over and over that it's over, he's done.

UNTIL last night. Last night-something changed, for him, at least.

I believe he mistook my willingness to OWN up to my part in the dysfunction as equal to me accepting BLAME.

For me, it was ALL too clear. It made me SAD, mostly. I want to believe he means well, but it will NOT work out. EVER. He cannot change-or I should say he changes TOO much! He has no stable sense of WHO he is and WHAT he wants. He will keep recycling the places, people and events in his life to make them new... .over and over.

And really... .Who would want to go BACK?

Back for more erratic behavior? More empty promises, more emotional/verbal abuse? More isolation?

I want to move Forwards. Not Backwards.

It's truly ONLY a mental illness that can convince him he was blameless and that I wronged HIM.

That he Had Nothing to do with ANY of this tragic ending he created.

It's just sad.

GL

[Newton]

GL... .You are right... .it is truly sad... .

I experienced this same set of demands from my ex before I decided to grovel and apologise and buy into the next recycle... .

I ended up not even quite knowing what I had apologised for!  It took a year of this before I realised I was allowing myself to be painted into a suffocating corner... .all because of my FOG... .

It's great to hear you have the knowledge now to appreciate what this interaction was about... .and the dysfunctional dynamic behind it... .

Good for you! 

[gina louise]

newton, thanks.

He caught me on a day when I hadn't slept well... and I was feeling down.

I almost wanted to say... try again? sure! (ever the optimist) Almost.

but try WHAT?

So I said nothing. Offered nothing. Agreed to nothing. Asked him to ship me a book I had left.

told him I was sorry he wasn't finding a great place to rent. (NOT!)

His concept of what we had, who we are and what the r/s ought to be like is NOT like mine.

I wanted a partner, he wanted a clone. He wanted/expected a wife who always put him first, never questioned him, never voiced an opinion, never had a critical word... .

Sadly, I had a brain, a mouth, a questioning mind, emotions of my own, opinions, dreams, plans, hopes, fears... .I had a history that included work, friends, children, elderly parents and extended family.

In my original version I was completely Unacceptable to him. So he wants me Re-Done.

He's hoping (and plotting) that the GL2.0 is WAY better, that all the glitches and bugs are GONE.

Nope. I like the Original GL. A bit dented and worn on the edges-but still going strong.

I am just fine, thank you.   

GL

[Rose Tiger]

I tried to imagine my Ex saying those things and what would be my response?  First thing that came to mind was hysterical laughing.  Probably not the best choice.

Sorry you got hit with that.  Rough stuff.  When part of us is missing them so much.     I get wambly and then I remember how he didn't care how I felt.  Sad, depressed, needing affection, NOPE.  He did not care.  I think that's the part that hurts me the most.  :'(

Are you doing ok?  Have you got some good self soothers in the toolbox?

[Newton]

"GL2.0"... .made me      ... .I must have got to "Newton5.8" before I stopped! 

Working out why we were attempting to shape ourselves to people who were trying so little to alter their own condition is the key to our detachment and the path to our contentment with ourselves 

[gina louise]

Rose Tiger, Newton,

yes it was rough. It came from left field... and I hadn't expected to hear from him.

but that one line... "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT" stopped me cold.

I thought OMG, truly? ALL on me? He really went there? In his MIND, I made him do all those things he did-on his own. Is that even possible?   

Had he NOT said that, I might have been sorely tempted. To try again just for the sake of a fairly new r/s and marriage. It's been less than 4 years.

we did not had those breakup and makeup cycles in our r/s-mostly because I wouldn't leave. Stubborn stupid me.

we only split once prior to marriage... .and now, this time.

If I had taken him seriously every time he raged and was DONE it would have been many more breakups.

But no. it's hard some days, yet I feel better and better as time passes.

It also looks crazier and crazier from the outside looking in.

GL

[Newton]

It categorically MUST be your fault... .or else he would have to accept the glimmer of a possibility some of it might have to do with him... .that would mean facing up to core wounds... .thats too much to bear so you are the scapegoat called "denial"... . ... .it's crazy indeed.

[Rose Tiger]

I remembered this from the Leaving article (that I've read a kajillion times  )

"- When "The Borderline" tells you how difficult the break-up has been, share with him some general thoughts about breaking-up and how finding the right person is difficult. While "The Borderline" wants to focus on your relationship, talk in terms of Ann Landers - "Well, breaking up is hard on anyone. Dating is tough in these times. I'm sure we'll eventually find someone that's right for both of us." Remember - nothing personal!

- Keep all contact short and sweet - the shorter the better. As far as "The Borderline" is concerned, you're always on your way somewhere, there's something in the microwave, or your mother is walking up the steps to your home. Wish "The Borderline" well but always with the same tone of voice that you might offer to someone you have just talked to at the grocery store. For phone conversations, electronic companies make a handy gadget that produces about twenty sounds - a doorbell, an oven or microwave alarm, a knock on the door, etc. That little device is handy to use on the phone - the microwave dinner just came out or someone is at the door. Do whatever you have to do to keep the conversation short - and not personal."

Here's the link:

Leaving a Partner with Borderline Personality Disorder

[myself]

I just went through some more contact, too, where it was all blaming me, she's still angry, I'm the crazy one who needs help, etc. 1/4th of it was I'm still the greatest love to her ever but the rest was a mix of projections, pain, and who-knows-what-that-is ('disordered thoughts', I know). I stayed calm, didn't give up personal details, didn't express feelings, validated what I could and walked away when it got to be too much. I can't deny I love her, and feel to be compassionate with her, but I don't have to stand there being hurt again even when it's just by text. Sad that things have come to this, but it was another 'keep those eyes open' kind of interactions and I was thinking of things I've learned here, remembering other people talking of how they got through these kinds of moments, and I made it through. Each time I see there's more distance between us now, and each time those tuggings on my heart don't seem as strong or hurtful. Untwisting what was into something growing better today. I feel bad for her. She lost someone good. Me.

[Newton]

myself... ."she lost someone good. Me."... .  ... .nicely put!

[gina louise]

myself,

I am So sorry we are in the same boat. Just keep rowing!

I got that part tossed in there too. the "you need therapy and Al Anon" and "too bad you did this to us." and even "I thought you were The One"... .trying to tug me off course, and back for more abuse.

(Hey! Gimme BACK my Oar!)

I stayed in MY boat, was polite, and kept rowing-I didn't need to tell him it was Away from him.

when he started telling... .uh, Blaming me... .I kept it very short.

I don't want to be a scapegoat or a whipping post. Both unsavory options.

too bad he's my HUSBAND and we have to divorce. it would have been easier NOT married.

GL

[myself]

GL, sorry for your stuff, too. I used to do anything I could to help she and I stay together, even when it meant more pain for me. This time, the recycle could still be there (she didn't say it was that, but was pretty much saying if I was the one to get my act together, she's still there for me) (   ), but I just didn't play along. More of me than not was glad to be out of that kind of drama, and I made sure to not take steps back in. Finding out she's been telling people I did negative stuff that I never did isn't helping her case any, either. She said it's over, and it's over. I agree. I wished her well, and focused elsewhere.

[gina louise]

myself,

I did the same. 

I am amazed at the mental yoga stuff I twisted my mind into just to improve the situation for both of us.

Finally I sat there weathering yet another storm, walking out on another rage and asking myself why-IF I did those things-HAD they NOT worked? I was told, I was lectured, I was molded, I was even threatened and scared.

Why had none of MY many efforts to answer, to improve-prevailed?

then it hit me.

Nothing really would ever work. the other person would simply up the ante, raise the bar just as I relaxed enough to let my defenses down. I would never jump quite high enough, never achieve  the mark they arbitrarily set for me... .over and over. and over.

So I simply stopped. the game stopped. the payoff to the Other person stopped.

I don't think I could have managed any other way and kept my balance.

Peace and Relief on a good day. And sanity, even on a bad day.   

GL

[myself]

Why had none of MY many efforts to answer, to improve-prevailed?

then it hit me.

Nothing really would ever work. the other person would simply up the ante, raise the bar just as I relaxed enough to let my defenses down. I would never jump quite high enough, never achieve  the mark they arbitrarily set for me... .over and over. and over.

I was just thinking about this, how it's one reason recycles don't work out. Because if one of the people involved doesn't work on improving themselves, it won't matter how much the other person does. Especially when, as you said, the rules and lines keep changing. If the person who kept changing things was changing them for the better, ok, let's do it. If they were, they would also be helping their partner through the rougher times, not creating them or adding to them. There would be way less troubled times!

I know that when she and I were together, I worked on myself to be a better person. Within the relationship and otherwise. I did a lot of bending over backwards trying to keep it all going, too, taking on a lot of her negative projections. There were a few times she said something right on the money, though, and it illuminated certain things for myself. So I worked on stuff and made improvements. It took some doing to see most of it was her projections, though. One sure difference between us was, she could say something about me, and I could take it in, and I could change myself for the better from it. She couldn't take any form of reflecting back to her, she'd attack the mirror and do everything she could to smash it. Not improving herself in the process.

Now we can say, "Back when we used to be recyclers... ." (Feels healthier, doesn't it?)

[talithacumi]

Good for you for staying strong & true to yourself/your needs, GL.

It made me laugh, though, when you said this recycle attempt came out of the blue - cuz you'd just mentioned how he hasn't been able to find himself a place to live! Not surprising, under the circumstances, to tap you to take care of this problem for him, make him feel better about it, and/or simply take all the blame for how the whole thing makes him feel. Just like you always did in the past.

So exasperating to find yourself in this position given everything that's happened over the last couple of months - but soo glad you stepped outside your own sadness/doubts and didn't take the bait this time!   

Big hug. Stay strong. You're getting there and you're not alone!

[gina louise]

talithacumi,

Ohhhhhh of course!

I meant I hadn't been expecting to hear from him-but yeah now that I consider the context it DOES make sense. He was texting me while waiting to see a rental, late, after work. and it was a crappy place, too.

Of course that translates into "ALL my fault." LOL

It was hurtful for him to dangle the carrot of uncertainty... ."maybe this could work"... .and then smack me with it.

It was never ALL my fault. except that I stayed and tried and tried.

thanks guys.

GL

[karhues]

Good for you for not being recycled - that was a smart smart choice.  I was married to my ex for 20 years went thru pure hell during the divorce process.   Well anyway two years after the divorce my mom dies and leaves me her home - Well who should come along but my ex trying to ask me out through my eldest daughter (who has the same disorders as him) she tells me how dad has changed and wants another change - I told her and him absolutely not.  Two years of therapy and I was finally not crying everyday.  Well the month went on and I needed help moving so I accepted his offer of help - big mistake.  He was in yet another relationship so I thought he won't really bother with me - was I wrong - he telling me it over with her - she was selfish etc.

I entered a relationship with him against my better judgment - he was amazing - helpful and attentive and even disciplined our oldest when she went off on me - I was so happy.  I also have a younger daughter who is mentally stable and who was not at all happy about her parents reunion - she told me "He will hurt you again"  Happy did not last within a year he wanted to move in with us - he said he was so happy to be home with his family.  I said no to his repeated requests - I had lost my last home due to the divorce and his sick twisted behaviors - I was not going to the lose the home my mom's money helped me buy - no way!  I did let him stay over a lot and gave him a key to my new home about 6 months into the new relationship. I explained moving in and giving up his apartment was not a good idea because of what had happened in our past I was happy with him having his own place plus that way if it didn't work out he'd have somewhere to go.

So now that I look back I would say after he realized I wasn't letting him move in - the behaviors started emerging - he was taking off for days with no contact - being distant - sleeping on the couch - etc.  He also stopped helping me with our eldest - she go off and he would sit there - that's when it really hit me - the cycle was starting again and I needed him the hell out of my house.  It was slow - first I got the keys - I kept telling him something wasn't right with our relationship - the more I said that the more he stayed at his place.  He'd call or text til one day we didn't hear from him for 2 weeks.  He said he was in funk etc - I later found out he had been in a serious relationship with my replacement (an older women this time - this is new  - usually they are younger anyway she's newly divorced and has a lot of money)   for several months.  I also found out that he never did break up with that girl he was with when he recycled me - she did dump him 2months after we started seeing each other.  I also found out that he was constantly texting several women at a time during our 2 year relationship - some old girlfriends and some new - he always has several going at once - he is never ever alone.  Count your blessings that you listened to that voice - god knows I wish I had.  I'm back in therapy and I'll be ok - but even though I know I am far better off alone - the pain of the lost a second time is incredible.

[Rose Tiger]

Thanks for sharing your experience Karhues.  They are masters of deception.  Without intense commitment to working on their stuff, they do not change.  My ex started to see a DBT specialist a couple years ago and after a few months I spoke to his counselor.  Ex had signed a release.  The counselor told me that ex was fine and that Rose Tiger was the one causing all the problems in the marriage.  That was a real bad day.  That was the first time I ever called my T outside of office hours and she told me, no way, one person is not 100% at fault and it was not professional of him to tell me that.  Ex is that good at deception, his false self tricked a licensed professional.  Blech.  Ex stopped seeing the counselor since he now had confirmation that he was fine and I was the problem.  No, more like, his false act fooled someone because ex did not allow the counselor to see the REAL ex.  So that just added another roadblock to the marriage having any chance.

Ex recently passed on that he is having trouble with his perfectionism and how hard it is to let anyone down.  He said it like this was some huge revelation and improvement.  I call it baloney.  It's the same old, same old self absorbtion with no insight into how he affects others with his behavior.  Enough.  Done.

Stay strong Karhues and Gina! 

[karhues]

Rose - you're right on the money - we went to marriage counseling before the divorce - I was so desperate to save our marriage and he agreed to go.  What a nightmare - he was the one that was verbally abusive and having the affairs.  By the end of the 2nd session the therapist was saying that he was right I needed to get a better paying job.  I didn't even know that was a big issue but it did deflect the therapist away from the cheating and abuse.  He played her like I couldn't believe.  We never made a third session - he did something so awful - I left and never went back and filed for divorce.  So when he ever came back into our lives I was very weary to say the least - but he's good - he made me feel great that is until recently - cheating again and gone with the newest replacement - like I never existed.  It is the worse feeling I have ever experienced and what a fool was I to give him a second change.  The crazy thing is I still miss him - for goodness sake I will be in therapy trying to understand this for a long time to come.  The good thing about this message board is that it educates us and helps us to understand the depth of the illness.  It also makes me feel not so alone - the people in my life are sick of hearing it - I mean the first time was bad enough but a second time just makes me look like a fool.  What love can do to a human being - what destruction!