Memory distortion or calculated?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi Oneneatguy,

I dont remember exactly. I copied and pasted it to a personal file of mine some time ago. I too thought it was helpful. Like Mitti, I like to know some of the reasoning behind why they split us for no reason. It brings clarity and calmness to me to know. Also, I too like to know some specifics on how to cope and i found i had been doing at least 2 of the what not to do's on this list.   

Your welcome aNd glad i could share... .  

[almost789]

Hi Oneneatguy,

I dont remember exactly. I copied and pasted it to a personal file of mine some time ago. I too thought it was helpful. Like Mitti, I like to know some of the reasoning behind why they split us for no reason. It brings clarity and calmness to me to know. Also, I too like to know some specifics on how to cope and i found i had been doing at least 2 of the what not to do's on this list.   

Your welcome aNd glad i could share... .  

[maria1]

I agree it is one of the most helpful things to try and understand the disorder and how it works.  Understanding what splitting and projection are can only be helpful.

It's just there are points where I have to accept that disordered thinking is almost impossible to rationalise in my own mind. Because it has no rational basis at times. Similarly I can understand the pathology of schizophrenia but I cannot truly understand what it feels like to hear voices.

For me it is easier to accept that I cannot get into a pwBPD's mind, however close we may have got. We shared so much but really so much of his thoughts and the life he lead when apart from me are pretty alien to me really. Accepting that has helped me to get to a point of clarity about what I can and can't have in my life and where my boundaries need to be.

[gottafixit]

Yes my screen name is indicative of where I have put myself, and how I got there.  I still feel that in some ways but am working out of it.  By the way, when we ended couples therapy, she hated me for the individual counseling I pursued.  Alwasy wanted to know what was said, etc. 

She is alone now having alienated our daughter, myself, most of her family, and many friends, who have become "distant."  I fear what will happen in the near future.  She has an ailing older mother, and we have a 14 1/2 yr old dog.  Neither will be around forever.  I feel the pain she will go through as I have been there myself, but somehow I dread her reactions more than the actions themselves?

[mitti]

Its part of splitting. This is a natural reaction in BPD. As they begin to get close to you... .  their past is recreated and u become the bad person/feelings from the past in their subconcious. All u can do is not take it personal. Dont over react. (easier said than done, i know) he will come in and out of these splitting episodes. If your staying... .  your job is not to lose it and dont threaten abandonment.

Thank you so much PartofMe for the description on splitting. Like everybody else here on these boards I have had to deal with that throughout our r/s and in the beginning I had no clue as to what was going on. And as is described I isolated myself from all my friends because he would split them for no apparent reason except for them being my friends and therefore "demanding" some of my attention. I am with the help of my T trying to change all of that now. On the other I am hardly ever allowed to criticize any of his friends without causing a conflict although a lot of them have treated him and me both really badly. And they still use him but he will not tolerate any criticism of them. This is what has been going on this fall. Now we seem to be in this in between state where I am not completely split black but neither white. I think he is trying hard to keep his emotions anD behavior in check, and I guess that is improvment.

The DOs and DONTs are not that easy to follow. To a great extent I do understand what's going on with him most of the time but it still hurts and often it is not until afterwards that I can see clearly and judge the situation. And sometimes I have just lost it with him, obviously with consequences. And I still wonder, how would a T tackle it? How do they start working on these behaviors if the pwBPDs are never challenged to do so? I am not suggesting that I be function as his T but I am just thinking how would pwBPDs ever start suspecting there's a "flaw" in their reasoning…?

Thanks again PartofMe, I think I am going to print that list of what to do and not to do and keep it with me to remind myself.

[Newton]

mitti ... .  a T is dealing with multiple clients... .  with a myriad of disorders... .  ... .  they should (if they are good at what they do)... .  have their own T to deflect the emotional crap they are dealing with day to day.

I think we have a more challenging role as partners of pwBPD... .  therapists are paid, they have support and are interacting weekly with our SO's.  For an hour at most... .  it's their choice as a commercial enterprise... .  

I'm not attempting to diminish their part in the dynamic... .  it's essential.

Our role is whether we choose/or not to deal with this hour by hour, day by day.  Trying to evaluate what emotional reward we are actually getting from this rs... .  balanced against our partners behaviour... .  and how we feel about that.


In my opinion people with BPD will POSSIBLY seek/accept help when they have little to no alternative left... .  until then the defence mechanisms that have worked before will prevail again, and again... .   

[almost789]

Hi Mitti,

The therapist has the same difficulty we have and has to work very skillfully to not lose it too! It takes someone who is very skilled with BPD. Not just any old therapist will do. They do challenge them, but very gently and slowly and they know more than we do on how to approach. They also dont just jump right to the deep issues right off the bat. They focus on forming a bond with the patient first and if the bond is not formed, if the client doesntntrust or respect the therapist it doesnt work. Remember not to take it personal its not about you even when he makes it about you. When i think of this brain disorder and the way it does people it makes me sad.

Im glad the article shed some light for you. It did for me too.

[mitti]

Hi Mitti

It seems to me what you're asking for is an answer to the question 'Why can't he face his disorder?' And the answer is because he's disordered. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to work out the thinking behind it.

His reasons in sending these texts come from disordered thinking. My ex did similar things and to me the basis was deep shame and hatred of himself. If he could face the shame he wouldn't have BPD. Because BPD is a personality built out of defense mechanisms because of unbearable shame about who they are.

Many psychiatrists refuse to work with borderlines here in the UK. Some health authorities are currently working to ban them from the psych wards as they used to be. Because the perception is people with BPD use up resources and try to use therapists to their own ends. Whenever my BPDex got close to anything in therapy I know he would have pushed it away again and deflected. Because if he had to own the pain he caused to other people he could not cope with it.

For what its worth I'm sure it's not calculated. He wants you close but at the same time knows he can't deal with it- don't forget that part too.

Hi maria1 and thank you so much for your response,

Yes, I do wonder why he won't face his disorder, not because I cannot accept the reality that there's is a disorder behind a lot of his reasoning and bizarre behavior, but because he is (usually) aware of it. Sometimes he claims all is my fault, but that is not for long periods, other times he wants it to be a question of the two of us not functioning together although he has had the same problems in every single r/s. In a way he may be right it is worse with us, but he has never been with anybody as long as he has with me and he says he has never felt as close to, or as dependent on, anybody else before. And I know that is a huge trigger in itself. Still I believe blaming it on me or our r/s is a kind of denial (not denying I have a part in our problems of course). He knows he has serious issues and has a lot of insight into his own behavioral problems. It just gets too painful for him to deal with these issues. He told me a long time ago, before I had any idea of the extent of his problems, that he believed he had BPD and that some ex told him this a few years back. We have discussed BPD before and at the time he seemed to be relieved there was some explanation for why he felt and reacted the way he does.

Yes, he has a lot of self-loathing. He keeps asking me if there is anything I like about him even though I tell him all the time that he has so may wonderful sides, as if he doesn't hear me, or heard the opposite or doesn't believe me. He wants to be loved just the way he is but he can't see I love him despite what he has put me through. Nothing I say or do seems to convince him.

I believe you are right that probably he meant no harm with his text and has no understanding he had just reduced me to distant acquaintance level, let alone how much it hurt me.

[mitti]

It's just there are points where I have to accept that disordered thinking is almost impossible to rationalise in my own mind. Because it has no rational basis at times. Similarly I can understand the pathology of schizophrenia but I cannot truly understand what it feels like to hear voices.

For me it is easier to accept that I cannot get into a pwBPD's mind, however close we may have got.

I know exactly what you mean. I understand BPD and how it affects a person in theory but I still can't get my head around what is actually going on in his mind. Lately I had become very aware of how it is almost impossible for me to comprehend what it does to him. I still try to reason with him although I know it won't "work". He and I share so many ideas and values and we usually completely agree on the very same dilemmas we struggle with if it's to do with somebody else. He just can't process it the same way when it's about him. He tells me how he feels, but I have no idea what that must be like. All I can accept is that it must be extremely painful to be where he is.

[mitti]

mitti ... .  a T is dealing with multiple clients... .  with a myriad of disorders... .  ... .  they should (if they are good at what they do)... .  have their own T to deflect the emotional crap they are dealing with day to day.

I think we have a more challenging role as partners of pwBPD... .  therapists are paid, they have support and are interacting weekly with our SO's.  For an hour at most... .  it's their choice as a commercial enterprise... .  

I'm not attempting to diminish their part in the dynamic... .  it's essential.

Our role is whether we choose/or not to deal with this hour by hour, day by day.  Trying to evaluate what emotional reward we are actually getting from this rs... .  balanced against our partners behaviour... .  and how we feel about that.

In my opinion people with BPD will POSSIBLY seek/accept help when they have little to no alternative left... .  until then the defence mechanisms that have worked before will prevail again, and again... .   

Hi Newton,

Thanks for your response and your input. I agree with you that we have a more difficult role as partners, having to deal with this on a daily basis. A T also will work with a pwBPD from a position of authority and I am his equal, therefore what I say carries no more weight to him then what he himself says.

This is basically where my ex is, and has been for a while. After a really traumatic breakup two years ago he made up his mind that he wanted to make things work with me and it was his suggestion to go for CT. I knew there'd be setbacks but I just wasn't prepared for how bad that would feel. I now feel that I might be willing to try again if only I have some tools at my disposal, not to just cope with the status quo of the r/s, but to make changes for the both of us. I want to learn not to only accept his projection and splitting but find a way where we can stop that from happening, if that makes sense. Sorry at loss for how to express myself.

[mitti]

The therapist has the same difficulty we have and has to work very skillfully to not lose it too! It takes someone who is very skilled with BPD. Not just any old therapist will do. They do challenge them, but very gently and slowly and they know more than we do on how to approach. They also dont just jump right to the deep issues right off the bat. They focus on forming a bond with the patient first and if the bond is not formed, if the client doesntntrust or respect the therapist it doesnt work. Remember not to take it personal its not about you even when he makes it about you. When i think of this brain disorder and the way it does people it makes me sad.

You are so right and I have noticed that our T has moved ahead very carefully with him. She has had to maneuver back and forth between his willingness to look at himself, to being triggered by his own admissions when she has repeated them to him. It can't have been easy. But we were making progress. She told me privately that she would probably seem to side a little more with him to make him feel less challenged and I found that hard. But she was doing exactly what you describe, forming a bond with him, before attempting to have him look at some of his issues. She has been amazing though and he did trust her. It was kind of my fault that he stopped going. I demanded a change he wasn't ready to make. The T tried to talk me out of it but at the time I felt I couldn't continue the way things were. It was too painful and humiliating. I needed my self respect back. I am sure that faced with the same situation I would do the same thing again, so I do not regret my decision to push for this change. When he had declared he wouldn't attend the sessions anymore, the T said she felt certain he would want to come back but she also felt it might be good for me that he didn't come for a while as it would allow me to work on myself and be better prepared for when he comes back. Of course, we have since split up and it's all up in the air at the moment.

[Newton]

You have power to accept his splitting and projection... .  (or not)

You have little, to no power to stop that from happening... .  (that's his stuff to deal with)

Are you ok with that sort of relationship dynamic?... .  at least for now?... .  

[mitti]

You have power to accept his splitting and projection... .  (or not)

That's difficult. I do some times but it takes a lot of work to keep my own feelings under control and not take it personally.

You have little, to no power to stop that from happening... .  (that's his stuff to deal with)

I need to understand and find whatever little power I do have, so that he will deal with it because…

Are you ok with that sort of relationship dynamic?... .  at least for now?... .  

… I am not ok with this r/s dynamic longterm. I was ok with it for now for a long time but then felt certain things needed to change for me to still be ok. He kept saying for me give him time. I gave him time but as there was no motivation for him to work on his issues I altered my position and said I needed to do things a little differently to protect myself from being emotionally hurt. That's when we had a crisis.

Since then I have tried to understand whether we had a setback or whether we just couldn't get any further. I still don't know the answer to that, and hence I am on this fence. I just need progress, however slow. I can accept setbacks but I have no idea if that's what it was/is.

So currently I am trying to detach but I am still hoping for a change. I have been away on holidays, planning another trip, reconnecting with old friends. He has rung me a couple of times after Xmas and we have met up, argued and talked some. He asked me the other day if I thought medication might be a good idea for him. He also finally revealed that he wasn't able to get T on his insurance and he cannot afford to pay privately. Idk if he is reaching out. I was the one to break up with him so he isn't going to ask me back. And I need to hear he will commit to getting better, and acceptance that he has serious issues that need dealing with.

[almost789]

Wow Mitti,

You are right in the trenches of this. I totally agree with your stance with him on these issues. I too would not be able to accept the splitting and other things long term, but would accept for a while if there was a willingness to go to therapy, with measurable improvements... .  however slow they may be. Obviously, he knows he has issues and is trying to deal with them and it sounds very much like he doesn't want to lose you. It sure sounds as if he wants you back. But you say he won't ask. They are terrified of rejection, this may play in here. So are you saying "his" insurance won't pay for it, but "yours" will? I feel like I missed something there. Also, do you mind sharing the thing that you say the therapist thought you demanded of him too soon. I'm just curious, no worries if you can't share that. I totally understand your need for privacy too. Some of these things they do are so embarrasing to tell others of.

[Newton]

Perhaps what you want from a relationship... .  and what he can provide at this moment in time are on a very different timescale?... .  

[mitti]

Wow Mitti,

You are right in the trenches of this. I totally agree with your stance with him on these issues. I too would not be able to accept the splitting and other things long term, but would accept for a while if there was a willingness to go to therapy, with measurable improvements... .  however slow they may be. Obviously, he knows he has issues and is trying to deal with them and it sounds very much like he doesn't want to lose you. It sure sounds as if he wants you back. But you say he won't ask. They are terrified of rejection, this may play in here. So are you saying "his" insurance won't pay for it, but "yours" will? I feel like I missed something there. Also, do you mind sharing the thing that you say the therapist thought you demanded of him too soon. I'm just curious, no worries if you can't share that. I totally understand your need for privacy too. Some of these things they do are so embarrasing to tell others of.

Thanks PartofMe,

I will try to share and have it make sense. It's not embarrassing but I feel it is always a little daunting to reveal personal stuff on a public forum. I am worried I'll give out too much info and there's a part of me who also feels it is not totally fair to him.

Yes, he does know he has issues and occasionally also a lot of insight into exactly what is going on. He told me early on in our r/s that he was scared of emotional intimacy. At the time I had no idea what he was talking about, nor was I worried as he was showing me the opposite. Since we got back together about a year ago he has been trying very hard to make changes and to be honest about what he can and cannot do. I have been extremely proud of him because I appreciate this is hard and scary for him.

He is a very proud man and asking me back when I have dumped him is just not something he can bring himself to do, especially since he must feel he has tried very hard to stay in the r/s and not run off as he used to after I told him I would no longer accept that, when we got back together a year ago. He will make himself, sort of, available and then try to make me do the work. It was hard enough for him to come back when he was the one to have broken up. When he is sure he doesn't want to see me he has never had any problems staying NC.

He has serious problems with boundaries, not only violating mine but also enforcing his own. He has extremely low self esteem as pwBPDs usually seem to have and he has few friends. A few years ago this new narcissistic and domineering friend of his was able to gain a lot of control over him. My ex soon idealized this person and triangulated me with him. It's a long story but suffice to say that this friend exercised his control by eating away at my ex's self-esteem by extreme forms of criticism and abuse on the one hand and wanting close and frequent contact on the other. He made it plain obvious he didn't accept me and was the most manipulative whenever my ex was going through a panicky push phase in our r/s. He was definitely instrumental in our breakup almost two years ago. My ex would never side with me, he couldn't see that I was doing my best not only to avoid this man driving a wedge between us but also protect him against his dominance. We were apart for 7 months, the worst time in my life ever. After we got back together my ex still kept this person in his life although he had even found out that he had talked about him in derogatory terms to other people. Sometimes he will agree with me, and admit that he has problems asserting himself. He acknowledges that he has some need of acceptance from controlling people like this friend although they are not good for him. This has been discussed in T at length. But whenever our T would try to challenge him and nudge him towards letting this person go, my ex would get all defensive and sometimes even rage. For me this has all been extremely painful and humiliating. This person who was allowed to do so much harm to us is still in a way in control. My ex is not standing up for himself, nor for me or us. He acknowledges that this person has nothing to offer him, that he has been out of line, that he has been controlling, manipulative, abusive, demeaning and that he hasn't been respectful of either the two of us nor our r/s but not only does he still keep him in his life but he is still subservient to him.

Our T has said that she can understand where I am coming from and that I have every reason to not want this person in my life or want to stay in the r/s if my partner insists he wants this person in his life. I felt more and more humiliated to the point where I felt I was losing all my self respect. I let my then bf know I needed some time out while he decided what he wanted as I could no longer accept status quo. For him it was difficult that I was learning to deal with my codependency and all of a sudden able to voice my needs in a new way. I am sure he felt cornered on all sides. He had been working very hard and his push pull had lessened significantly as had his passive aggressiveness. One thing I understood from our CT was that he felt manipulated despite the fact that he was basically still refusing to make any sacrifices for our r/s and try to make up for some of the damage done by this friendship.

[mitti]

Perhaps what you want from a relationship... .  and what he can provide at this moment in time are on a very different timescale?... .  

You may be right. I feel I am in a place where I just can't compromise anymore than I already have. I am getting ready to move on but I am still in my heart hoping for reconciliation.

[Newton]

I know where you are coming from... .  I had a real disconnect between setting boundaries which I knew were essential for my sanity and well being.  I was sure that my ex wasn't able to respect those boundaries... .  so I resisted enforcing them through fear of our relationship falling apart... .  (FOG).

It can take time for our feelings to catch up with our thoughts... .  

[almost789]

Well, I understand that. I too had a boundary which my pwBPD could not manage to do. He said he could, said he could do better. But, he apparently just couldn't or got triggered and didn't want to. They tend to get really stubborn later in the relationship don't they? Mine, in the begining, for the first 6 months would have done anything I asked. Later, I think he saw it as controlling and would not accept. Even though my boundary was so completely reasonable. Anyone would expect it from a bf. It seemed like he would intentionally break it to push my buttons.

[mitti]

Hi PartofMe,

Yes, it was the same with us. My partner would have done anything for me in the beginning. He has come back to that in intervals but never lasting and all in all it seems he, like yours, has become more stubborn and more inclined to overstep my boundaries, as you say almost intentionally sometimes, the longer we have been together. I sometimes think it's because we now have so much past trauma to work through. I am really struggling with a lot of things that have happened.

Through our CT we have come to understand that it actually brings on a lot of shame for him to make a sacrifice for me. The oddest thing to most people, especially since he has been adamant all was his fault. He has also said he feels that he did too much for me in the beginning to the point where he felt it wasn't healthy for us. He never did anymore than I did for him, but ok that is how he feels. My T told me that she thought he would eventually let go of this friend and also be able to combat his behavioral problems but before he will be able to do that he needs to know why he feels the way he does. She tried to prepare me for what a lengthy process it would be but for me to be able to cope. She was doing her best to prevent the two of us breaking up. The acute problem I had was the increasing feeling I was losing my self respect if I continued to accept status quo with this friend. All other things I would have put up with, but not that.

How long were the two of you together? And, if it's ok, what was your boundary?

[mitti]

I know exactly where you are coming from Newton. I allowed my ex increasingly more control over me and like you I resisted enforcing my boundaries because I was convinced he would not respect them and I didn't want to lose him. About a year ago I started changing the way I reacted and although scary it made such a huge difference both to how he responded and to how I saw myself. But every time I had to fight myself to do it because I had to get to that point where I was ready to lose him. Who can live like that for any length of time in a r/s and in the end there is a boundary he won't respect and I have to walk away anyway.

Thank you so much for your support 

[almost789]

I had a couple boundries Mitti. No silent treatment was one. That really was the only one i couldnt overlook. If he didnt like something hed just cut off all communication completely for days/weeks. Then come back and never apologise or anything and just expect me to be nice and act like nothing happened. I even could do that if he could have apologized but he never did and i always felt resentful. Its very hurtflul to go through silent treatment i was losing my self respect too. Ive never accepted such treatment before but made concessions for him knowing his problem. We were together for 2 years total. 8mo was good. I broke up with him at around 1 year in and then we did the push pull, silent treatment dance for a year! Far too long. What kind of relationship is that? He did use it as punishment. The first time he did it, I freaked cryied begged him to come back and speak... .  after that he if I would speak out about anything call him on anything hed say... .  you want me to go away, I will, I'll go away... blahh... blahh blahh. I'm not the kind of girl to not speak up.

[mitti]

So sorry to hear you have had to go through that. Silent treatment is just so excruciatingly painful and the worst kind of emotional abuse. It really is damaging, to your very soul. My ex used to give me the silent treatment as well, and use it as a form of punishment just like yours, when he realized it was so efficient. I also used to cry and beg him to come back in the beginning. The longest time lasted 7 months and it was just pure torture. When we got back together I told him I would never accept that again and the next time he pulled that on me I left. I let him know I would move on and when he called me I wasn't even in the country, and definitely not waiting for him. It shocked him I believe, he broke down completely. I can't know that is what it was, or whether it was understanding through our CT just how deeply he had hurt me or whether he will ever do it again. All I know is that I have been able to enforce my boundaries more and more without any silent treatment from him anymore. He has taken time out and we have spent time apart but he has never gone NC again after that.