Working on positive habits.

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

So, I'm still in a relationship with my BPDSO. But the last month or so I've been feeling disconnected from it. I probably won't have the balls to leave, but I am doing something about how I feel.

I have taken to working out. I enjoy it. Lifting weights feels good, it makes me feel stronger, and when I do it, I feel better about myself. But I'm realistic. I don't have a six-pack... .  at least not yet. So I ain't gonna attract a lot of attention. I used to say to myself "I don't need for those ab muscles to show" but now I'm thinking... .  yes I do. I want to have a perfect body. So I lift weights, pack on muscle. Right now I'm going about three times a week but I wanna get it up to 6 days.

I can finally see why those dudes in prison are so ripped. Besides for the fact that there's not much else to do in prison. Every aspect of their life is controlled by the system. The only thing they have left is their bodies, so they work out. Also having muscles means people are less likely to pick on you.

I feel like all I can control is how strong I can get, how ripped I can be. I decide whether I go to the gym on a given day, and I decide what I eat in the end. I'm turning twenty-five this week. That leaves me with five more years to enjoy the prime of my youth. That's no time at all. After that, it's done. My dating prospects will dwindle, my appearance will start to go, I'll have even more responsibilities. Life is gonna start coming down harder on me. But hopefully by then, I'll at least have my body. I'll at least have a physique worth looking at. I'll at least be physically strong enough to deal with the changes. Hopefully by then, I'll have SOMETHING to show for my years.

I don't feel like I have any dignity or command any respect. Why doesn't my SO respect me? Because she knows she can do better. People are as selfish as they can get away with. She can get away with her behavior, because she's got options. I got diddly-squat. So I have no choice but to be the b*tch. But if I work out enough, get buff enough, I'll have options. Then we'll see how bold she's gonna be. Let's see how much of an "I can do what I want" attitude she'll adopt. See how brave she'll act. This isn't just this relationship. It's any relationship. People are only as faithful as their options. Just how it works. Instead of whining about it, I'm deciding the BE the best option. Who knows, I might be one of those lucky guys who two-times a string of women. I never got to experience that as a teen, or in my early 20's. I want to know what it's like to be able to do whatever I feel like doing-and not have to worry about hurting someone because... .  who cares? Another idiot will come around.

But I have to GET THERE first.

[Vatz]

So, I'm still in a relationship with my BPDSO. But the last month or so I've been feeling disconnected from it. I probably won't have the balls to leave, but I am doing something about how I feel.

I have taken to working out. I enjoy it. Lifting weights feels good, it makes me feel stronger, and when I do it, I feel better about myself. But I'm realistic. I don't have a six-pack... .  at least not yet. So I ain't gonna attract a lot of attention. I used to say to myself "I don't need for those ab muscles to show" but now I'm thinking... .  yes I do. I want to have a perfect body. So I lift weights, pack on muscle. Right now I'm going about three times a week but I wanna get it up to 6 days.

I can finally see why those dudes in prison are so ripped. Besides for the fact that there's not much else to do in prison. Every aspect of their life is controlled by the system. The only thing they have left is their bodies, so they work out. Also having muscles means people are less likely to pick on you.

I feel like all I can control is how strong I can get, how ripped I can be. I decide whether I go to the gym on a given day, and I decide what I eat in the end. I'm turning twenty-five this week. That leaves me with five more years to enjoy the prime of my youth. That's no time at all. After that, it's done. My dating prospects will dwindle, my appearance will start to go, I'll have even more responsibilities. Life is gonna start coming down harder on me. But hopefully by then, I'll at least have my body. I'll at least have a physique worth looking at. I'll at least be physically strong enough to deal with the changes. Hopefully by then, I'll have SOMETHING to show for my years.

I don't feel like I have any dignity or command any respect. Why doesn't my SO respect me? Because she knows she can do better. People are as selfish as they can get away with. She can get away with her behavior, because she's got options. I got diddly-squat. So I have no choice but to be the b*tch. But if I work out enough, get buff enough, I'll have options. Then we'll see how bold she's gonna be. Let's see how much of an "I can do what I want" attitude she'll adopt. See how brave she'll act. This isn't just this relationship. It's any relationship. People are only as faithful as their options. Just how it works. Instead of whining about it, I'm deciding the BE the best option. Who knows, I might be one of those lucky guys who two-times a string of women. I never got to experience that as a teen, or in my early 20's. I want to know what it's like to be able to do whatever I feel like doing-and not have to worry about hurting someone because... .  who cares? Another idiot will come around.

But I have to GET THERE first.

[DreamGirl]

I dated a hockey player in my twenties who had the world going for him - looks, talent, money - but when you stripped away all those things and in the quiet moments, he was the most timid and unsure person I'd ever met. Always worried if he was "good enough". 

I also think that one of the most attractive men on the planet is my husband.

He's balding and has a slight beer belly.

But man... .  that wicked smile... .  those devilish eyes that smile at me from across a room... .  and that sense of humor that causes me to have big belly laughs... .  

I sit here with a cheese grin just thinking about it.

Vatz, I appreciate your thoughts. In America, we're conditioned to believe that part of our value is based on our looks.

I've also found in my old age - well old compared to you  - is that it really isn't such a huge factor. I mean, yes, I need to be attracted to my partner but... .  

Confidence is what gets my heart a pounding. Vulnerability and the willingness to connect. Hubba hubba.

I also think that when we focus too much on our outer-workings (guilty!), it may be a compensation for that confidence that we lack within.

So I ask you the hard question - Are you building confidence or compensating for not having it? I pick up on a certain sense of uncertainity in your post - a sense of "I don't think I deserve [insert "be in a good relationship", to "be valued", to "not worry about being traded up"]. 

I don't know that becoming hyperfocused on this one aspect of your whole sense of self is the answer?

Perhaps strengthening the inner part of yourself that fears that maybe you're not good enough to deserve love and devotion(right now!) might be part of it too?

 DreamGirl

[P.F.Change]

Nothing wrong with goals. It feels great to get in shape and have regular exercise. I agree that seeing your muscle tone improve can be encouraging.

That said, I am concerned that exercise might not actually be helping you improve your stuation, but rather is serving as a distraction from the real underlying issues. A great body is not a magic bullet that is going to guarantee you a happy and successful life. An average body does not doom you to a lifetime of loneliness and despair. I think if you were to put the same amount of time and energy into strengthening your inner life that you are currently investing in your outer life, you might achieve true happiness much more quickly than you would by doubling your workout time.

Do you currently have a Therapist? If not, would you be willing to meet with a personal trainer to learn ways to improve your emotional self as well?

Also, it isn't realistic to think you can control someone else. Changing your body is not going to change your SO.

For what it's worth, life begins after 30. "The prime of youth" isn't half as awesome as you might think.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Vatz]

Of course I'm "compensating for not having it." But, if I accomplish nothing, then I am just not really all that great a person. It has nothing to do with any of this self-esteem, self-love stuff. They tell us to love ourselves but what if there is genuinely nothing TO love about oneself?

Sorry this post is taking so long to write. But everything I type is so full of anger that after reading it over I don't feel right posting it.

To summarize what I INTENDED to write. Despite how much I love this person. I want revenge. I feel like just leaving her isn't enough. But all the while I hope there is something I can do to improve the current situation and maybe work on the relationship. But the more I think about it, it isn't just me. If the other person isn't willing, then whatever she is doing is more important than her respect for me. It's like... .  

Emotional Me: Maybe if I lay down boundaries, and let her know that I'll enforce them, then she might just get it.

Logical Me: But you already told her you don't feel comfortable with several things and she ALWAYS has an excuse or a reason for it. Then tells you that it all makes sense in her mind. You can't convert her, she will think this way even if you put her in a cage and never let her leave your sight.

Emotional Me: Yeah but-

Logical Me: No, dude. She isn't you. If her friends are that important to her, and if she makes you uncomfortable with what she does with them, then those friends are more important to her than making you feel comfortable, safe and trusting in this relationship. She wants your trust, but wants it unconditionally.

Emotional Me: So just walk out?

Logical Me: Who cares what you do. You walk she'll just find another guy. You stay she'll just keep texting her friend in front of you (even after having hung out with him a few days that week,) she'll still probably text that other guy too, just won't tell you about it.

Emotional Me: But what if I send a stronger message?

Logical Me: Saying "I'm uncomfortable with this" isn't strong enough? How do you respond when SHE says something like that?

Emotional Me: There's gotta be something I can do.

Logical Me: Alright, go ahead. I'll just stand back over *here.* Do what you want, dude.

Primitive Me: Let's just      her brains out any chance we get, scam her for cash, get buff, and cheat on her! C'mon guys! It'll be FUN! While she's out having a blast, you two are sitting there playing with yourselves like losers! Go get some action, get even and have a good time!

Logical Me: Now this guy... .  I like this guy's spirit. *HIS* heart's in the right place. At least he understands that we have a right to party too.

Emotional Me: It sure would feel good.

Logical Me: You can't argue with that logic.

Emotional Me: But what if-

Logical Me+Primitive Me: AW COME ON! THERE'S NO REASONING WITH THIS GUY!

[yeeter]

Hi Vatz,

One observation from an old guy.

Dating in my late 30's rocked!  I was much moRe confident (as dram girl stated).  Knew who I was and what I was about.

Lots of choices, and some very interesting women who had done/seen/experienced a lot.

I'm with PF.  Sort yourself out at the core.  It seems what is driving you has a lot to do with leveling the playing field with you gf.  It won't. No matter how ripped you get.  You don't control someone else's behavior ( which is, in effect what you are trying to do... .  if I was more ripped, she would blah blah blah)

[beinggentle]

But, if I accomplish nothing, then I am just not really all that great a person.  It has nothing to do with any of this self-esteem, self-love stuff. They tell us to love ourselves but what if there is genuinely nothing TO love about oneself?

BTW... .  You're really brave to outline those kinds of arguments between our emotional selves, and our logical selves that I believe we all have! But I actually don't think it has to do with boundaries with your BPDso for you right now. I may be wrong of course. I don't know you. But what really caught at me was what you wrote above... .  If I may, may I change direction of the convo flow with you for a moment... .  

Tell me, how would you feel if someone told you that all these three statements you've made about yourself are beliefs. Not facts. I remember a few years back asking my therapist if self-worth was really more like buying a house. If it were more like I was only worth what someone was willing to 'pay' for me. My T responded by saying, 'NO, I'm sorry BG, but that's just not what I choose to believe' And, that it wasn't part of her 'belief system' to think that way. Hearing that was a life-changing moment for me. It struck at me so deeply because she was able to let me realize that we can choose how we feel about ourselves. Our worth is not an intangible 'thing' that exists outside of our own perceptions; something that is assigned or determined by forces outside of our own choices. The level of our self-esteem and self-worth is determined by what we choose to believe it is. You can choose that you are a great person, regardless of what you accomplish. And you can even choose to believe in your own self-worth, even if right now you fear that there is nothing to love about yourself.

Some times the beliefs we've come to have embedded in our thoughts and hearts are so entrenched that they feel like fact. And similarly, our fears have nothing to do with facts. They are born out of our worst beliefs about ourselves. (which again, aren't facts). Vatz, I believe that regardless of what you do or do not accomplish in life, you are a great person. I believe there is genuinely everything you can love about yourself.

Why do you think and feel you have to make all these great accomplishments to be a great person? And, tell me, even if you think there might be nothing to genuinely to love about yourself, just humor me  for a minute... .  if there were... .  how would that make you feel? How would you treat yourself differently? And maybe even, if you want to get really crazy , what kinds of things do you think those might be... .  

I believe that underneath great anger lies great pain. Hugs. BG.

[P.F.Change]

(Cross-posted)

Of course I'm "compensating for not having it." But, if I accomplish nothing, then I am just not really all that great a person. It has nothing to do with any of this self-esteem, self-love stuff. They tell us to love ourselves but what if there is genuinely nothing TO love about oneself?

Are you saying that you are not a good person right now? That you are not lovable?

Anger is normal. But "revenge" will not help you. What is keeping you in a relationship where you are this miserable? Why not end it first, take some time to work on your issues, and *then* think about looking for another partner? It sounds like you are feeling kind of desperate to find anthing that will make you feel good for a change... .  that is actually understandable. But do take some time to realistically sort out the pros and cons of your choices. Like I said before, working out feels good and so does achieving a goal. Nothing wrong there. But it is not the long-term solution to your rs problems. If you want to transform yourself into someone who feels powerful and in control of his own life, that is going to take some serious work on an emotional level. It can be done, though. Are you willing to talk with a therapist?

I was looking back at your original post. You said "people are only as faithful as their options." I wholeheartedly disagree. People who value fidelity are faithful. Their boundaries reflect their value and they avoid even very attractive opportunities to cheat. People who don't really value fidelity don't have to worry about being faithful. They don't need boundaries and are often willing to cheat even with extremely unattractive people. Taking it a step further, people who value fidelity are not likely to tolerate infidelity from their partners. Their boundaries tell their partner, "I will not be in a rs with a cheating partner." People who do not value fidelity are more likely to stay in a rs with a cheater. Their [lack of] boundaries tells their partner, ":)o what you want, I will still be here." Now, sometimes we can feel distress when our boundaries do not match our values. So I will ask you: What are *your* values? Do your boundaries match your values? What about your SO--does she share your values about fidelity?



PF

[P.F.Change]

BG makes some good points. There is room for boundaries but she is right--your beliefs are the driving force behind them. Values are part of this discussion. If you value yourself, your boundaries fall in place accordingly too. You do have some negative beliefs about yourself, and those are keeping you stuck. You can learn to choose differently if you are willing to do the emotional workout.

[livednlearned]

Hi vatz,

I think you're being wonderfully honest. Thanks for writing this -- I'm older too, so some of my thoughts and reactions are based on hindsight. I can identify with what you're writing about your body since I felt much the same way in my 20s. I'm in my early 40s now and just starting dating again after divorcing my N/BPDx of 10 years. I can honestly say that love, sex, and attraction get better as you get older. It's a well-kept secret! By all means, get that healthy body. But do it because it makes you feel good, not because it will change how others feel about you.

My new guy is not someone I would've been particularly attracted to, but as I get to know him, I *see* him in a completely different way. He is 50, his hair is receding, he is short, and wears glasses. I think about him so often I sometimes feel like this must be what it's like to be a 14-year-old boy. He's hot! What attracts me is how he feels about himself (he can laugh at himself, and likes who he is), and how he makes me feel.

The honesty you are sharing here, the ability to be vulnerable -- that's what feels good in a healthy r/s.

[Vatz]

My new guy is not someone I would've been particularly attracted to, but as I get to know him, I *see* him in a completely different way. He is 50, his hair is receding, he is short, and wears glasses.

And THAT'S where you lost me. See, in your 20's you wouldn't have given him the time of day. But now you do. In HIS 20's he probably went through a lot of rejection and pain because of how he looked. While you were out having fun with good looking guys, dudes like him were getting stiffed. Tell me, do you think he actually loves you? Do you think he REALLY believes you're attracted to him? Or does he know, somewhere in the back of his mind that you're only there because you've run out of more attractive options? hmm?

They tell us to look at other people's actions. Words are just noises we make. We're honest if being so doesn't harm us. We lie if we know we'll get a better deal. But what you are DOING seems much more honest about what you're telling me about how "it gets better after 40." For who? You? Really?

I doubt it's better for him. You ever think that maybe the reason he isn't as shallow is because he never got the chance to be? Tell me, if tomorrow you both woke up and were both back in your twenties, but now your man was tall, handsome and had a full head of hair. But you looked like the equivelant of him at HIS age. Tell me, what do you think he'll do with all that female attention? You think he'll "look at your soul?"

THIS is where I can't stand people telling me it gets better. After all the examples I'm presented with, it doesn't actually get better. You just drop your standards because you can no longer afford to keep them so high. There is REALITY, there is an objective reality that exists. 2+2=4. You can argue about "Well who made the numbers?" but at the end of the day, the numbers exist because everyone agrees on it. There ARE objective measures to beauty and it ISN'T in the eye of the beholder. Numbers, statistics and and BEHAVIOR do not lie. We just like to make stuff up to make us feel better about our place in the world, and why we make choices we otherwise wouldn't.

[DreamGirl]

Oh, Vatz.

Are we dropping our standards?

Or are we simply getting wiser?

I'm a mother and I have a very handsome son who at first glance might not look so handsome to another 16 year old. He's got pimples and a big nose like his Mama.

He has a heart of gold though. He's kind and would do anything to help out a friend.

He recently got a girlfriend (who I absolutely adore to pieces) but before that, he thought that he was destined to being in what he calls "the friend zone" - where all the girls he talks to think of him as just a friend.

You're ten years older then him.

By your theory, he'll have dropped his standards in order to find someone.

Or will he realize that there is a great big planet with lots and lots of women on it? Not just the couple hundred that go to his highschool?

I didn't drop my standards when I chose to marry my husband. Quite the contrary, he was actually the result of raising them. My favorite type of man before him was an egotistical, good looking man (slash jerk) who didn't treat me very well.

My husband is really handsome because of his whole self. I'm completely attracted to him even though he probably wouldn't make the cut for any GQ magazine photo shoot.

It's not a coping skill for me to feel better about myself or him.

It's simply the perception of someone who learned to value herself more and be more picky about who she allowed in her life. It's about intimacy and knowing that the scar above his right eye was from a fishing trip his dad took him on and where his big brother casted his line right into his eyebrow. My husband absolutely loved his father and that scar is a precious reminder of his memory. It is hardly a flaw. It's just part of him. 

~ DreamGirl

[yeeter]

Well Vatz, I hear your points.

For me, it DID get better.  I was a geek (still am I guess).  And a nice guy (self proclaimed of course).  Yes, the hot girls looked over me when younger.

Then over time the female population evolved a little bit.  It became more cool to be a geek (bill gates helped, The computer revolution (turns out rich is sexy... .  ), and shows like revenge of the nerds).  Plus as I age I became more of a 'man' in how I looked (it even got to a point where I could grow a beard!  Although by then it came in grey).  But by then girls were interested in more than whether I had six pack abs.  And it turned out I was successful, fun, confident, and older women appreciate these things.

So your rant lost me.  For me, it DID get better with age.  And no I didn't hold it against the women who finally grew up and started seeing more than just a body.  In fact, I appreciated the interest and enjoyed it (at that age, we all have history... .  So what?  I'm living in the hear and now)

It sounds like what is really bugging you is that people in their 20's DO put a lot of emphasis based on looks.  That's true.  It's ill founded, but true.  And it sounds like you are upset because the 'object' of your desire, is better looking and has more choices than you.  It's very possible this is true.  But if you start trying to change who you are... .  In order to satisfy someone else... .  It's a bad precedence that will serve you poorly for the rest of your life.  

It's better to like and appreciate your own self, than it is to fake it just to get someone else to like you.  Ad the reality is... .  She may very well only care about how hot you are.  Just like a lot of guys that age only care about how hot the girl is.  It gets people in a lot of poor relationships.  Heck, some even get married only to later get divorced because their spouse is shallow, selfish, and uncaring.  Some of these even end up with the geek boy they knew when younger.  It's called growing up, and losing some of the immaturity

[gina louise]

Vatz,

Just an observation here, but in your posts you assume a lot. That youth and physical beauty equal some higher value... .  for instance.

Those things youth and beauty, simply don't last. that's a fact! Enjoy them with that in mind.

Lovers ultimately value the other deeper qualities because physical beauty and youth do fade and change.

And  rejection/revenge only lasts so long.

My standards didn't drop as I aged. They IMPROVED. They got tougher, as I got wiser.

I realized that the full hairline might be concealing an empty head. So I listened to the words and their tone. Over and over.

The toned pecs might be covering a grinchy heart... .  that will not grow. So I observed the actions-ordinary day to day coping skills.

The muscled arms that could pick me up were apt to drop me just as fast-if someone hotter came along and smiled.

So I look for arms attached to a whole PERSON who would take my hand... .  and hold on to it, no matter who walked by and smiled.

BTW it's brave of you to assess your reasons... .  and I hope you keep an open mind here.



GL

[beinggentle]

THIS is where I can't stand people telling me it gets better. After all the examples I'm presented with, it doesn't actually get better. You just drop your standards because you can no longer afford to keep them so high.

Ok Vatz. So let's say it doesn't get better. Let's say you're 'right'. How does choosing to believe that this is right,  make you feel? Obviously it makes you feel like crap because you sound supremely angry.

So my last question to you is... .  do you want to be angry or do you want to explore the possibility that there might be a way to become more peaceful. If you want to change, you must look at your own beliefs, values, and perceptions. That is the only way to change - there's no other way. Nothing you do to change your outsides will ever change your insides. If you want to continue to be angry, then I guess you're choosing to believe the right things. I know your mindset will not allow you believe this but I'm saying this out of concern and compassion for you.

And BTW. I'm 44 and I'm way hotter now than I ever was in my 20s. My standards haven't dropped. They've increased. Hugs and wishes for peace to you. BG.

[P.F.Change]

Vatz,

Are you interested in our advice?

You are posting on the Personal Inventory board, which will require some willingness to look hard at your own attitudes and beliefs in order to grow. A lot of people have given you some very good things to think about if you are willing. However, right now I get the feeling that you are not interested in listening. It looks like you are more interested in arguing with people about attractiveness. I think you are distracting yourself with that issue and that you are also projecting your own beliefs onto others. You have a right to feel how you feel. But what if those feelings are the result of false beliefs? In that case, challenging those beliefs by listening to alternatives can be helpful. We get to choose our attitudes, and that affects how we feel.


What is it you are hoping to achieve in this thread? Are you interested in challenging your beliefs about yourself and others?



PF

[Vatz]

@PF

I see your point. I don't know if it's a distraction but stepping back I can see why you would say I'm projecting. As for my beliefs, I'm not sure I'm ready to change them. HOWEVER, I can see the merit in going to see a therapist, figure out what is truly best for ME, and do it. Unpleasant as it may seem right now. But who knows, right? Also, I just got your name. Made me smile a bit.

@BG

Yeah. I am angry. I'm angry because I just feel like I am getting cheated out of life. Not by god, not by other people, but my own physical attributes (specifically my genes, something I can NEVER change.) You only get one life, and often it really looks like other people's lives are objectively better. I'm angry because there is NOTHING I can do about it. I can work out, I can go to therapy, but in the end I will always fall short. You can put diamonds and gems on a turd, but it still is what it is.

So yes, there's a lot of anger, but it also comes with feeling impotent. 

[seeking balance]

kudos to you for having the courage to post over here - it is awesome that you are looking at yourself.

Self worth - well, we all suffer to one degree or the other or we likely wouldn't be on this forum.  What I can say is this - when I feel physically HEALTHY, I feel better about myself.  When I feel better about myself, I tend to make better decisions for my emotional, spiritual, family, work - every major aspect really.

IF your first step is improving physical health and working towards emotional, spiritual, etc - that sounds like a fantastic plan.

As a human being - we all have equal value, don't you think?

[Vatz]

As a human being - we all have equal value, don't you think?

I don't.

[seeking balance]

As a human being - we all have equal value, don't you think?

I don't.

tell me more - what qualifies as more value to you?

[Vatz]

As a human being - we all have equal value, don't you think?

I don't.

tell me more - what qualifies as more value to you?

Appearance, youth, good genes, success (this one usually comes with the others,) etc. Yes these are superficial things, but you can SEE them. They are concrete and objective measures of worth. To ME. 

I am not ready to give up on those beliefs. They make perfect sense to me. But as I mentioned earlier, I think therapy is a good idea because regardless of my beliefs, my responses to perceived disrespect is something that needs tweaking. I can sit around just TAKE ___ all the time. Right? At least THAT can be worked on.

[livednlearned]

My new guy is not someone I would've been particularly attracted to, but as I get to know him, I *see* him in a completely different way. He is 50, his hair is receding, he is short, and wears glasses.

And THAT'S where you lost me. See, in your 20's you wouldn't have given him the time of day. But now you do. In HIS 20's he probably went through a lot of rejection and pain because of how he looked. While you were out having fun with good looking guys, dudes like him were getting stiffed.

Wow. You're angry.

Just a tip: if you get ripped and go around telling people (women) what they think, that six pack is going to mean jack squat.

Ask me if I would have given him the time of day in my 20s. Ask if he went through rejection and pain because of how he looked. Ask if he was actually getting stiffed. You're making false statements.

Tell me, do you think he actually loves you? Do you think he REALLY believes you're attracted to him? Or does he know, somewhere in the back of his mind that you're only there because you've run out of more attractive options? hmm?

You're talking about yourself.

They tell us to look at other people's actions. Words are just noises we make. We're honest if being so doesn't harm us. We lie if we know we'll get a better deal. But what you are DOING seems much more honest about what you're telling me about how "it gets better after 40." For who? You? Really?

O god yes. The sex is better, the guys are less ego driven, I have an awesome job, I have a kid I love, I'm seasoned and have earned respect through my work. I'm dating a guy who loves his kids (major attractive quality), who loves his work and is good at it, who feels good about who he is, who is funny, kind, sweet, has good boundaries, is intelligent, and most important, he is not angry, mean, or narcissistic.

I doubt it's better for him. You ever think that maybe the reason he isn't as shallow is because he never got the chance to be?

Because that's the goal?

Tell me, if tomorrow you both woke up and were both back in your twenties, but now your man was tall, handsome and had a full head of hair. But you looked like the equivelant of him at HIS age. Tell me, what do you think he'll do with all that female attention? You think he'll "look at your soul?"

You're a trip.

THIS is where I can't stand people telling me it gets better. After all the examples I'm presented with, it doesn't actually get better. You just drop your standards because you can no longer afford to keep them so high. There is REALITY, there is an objective reality that exists. 2+2=4. You can argue about "Well who made the numbers?" but at the end of the day, the numbers exist because everyone agrees on it. There ARE objective measures to beauty and it ISN'T in the eye of the beholder. Numbers, statistics and and BEHAVIOR do not lie. We just like to make stuff up to make us feel better about our place in the world, and why we make choices we otherwise wouldn't.

Have you ever thought that the reason you don't get lots of female attention is because you're angry?

[yeeter]

Appearance, youth, good genes, success (this one usually comes with the others,) etc. Yes these are superficial things, but you can SEE them. They are concrete and objective measures of worth. To ME. 

I am not ready to give up on those beliefs. They make perfect sense to me.

Hi Vatz,

Everyone is free to determine their own values and beliefs.  For me however, these items have nothing to do with worth.  I'm surprised there isn't anything on your list regarding how to treat others.  Humanity.  Kindness.  Caring.  Even the really spectacularly good looking people I have known in my life, have some of these other attributes.  Most will tell you they are frustrated by only being judged for how they look (a little ironic).

But given your list of what you value, it's no surprise then, assuming that you don't have these things, that you would be extremely dissatisfied.  Especially since none on the list are ones you can control.

I haven't read your whole story - did your girlfriend leave you for someone that is extremely good looking?

[P.F.Change]

Therapy can be very helpful when there is something you are ready to work on. I hope that is something you will keep looking into. 

I am glad you got a chuckle from my username. I always get hungry when I log in here. 

PF

[Vatz]

Appearance, youth, good genes, success (this one usually comes with the others,) etc. Yes these are superficial things, but you can SEE them. They are concrete and objective measures of worth. To ME. 

I am not ready to give up on those beliefs. They make perfect sense to me.

Hi Vatz,

Everyone is free to determine their own values and beliefs.  For me however, these items have nothing to do with worth.  I'm surprised there isn't anything on your list regarding how to treat others.  Humanity.  Kindness.  Caring.  Even the really spectacularly good looking people I have known in my life, have some of these other attributes.  Most will tell you they are frustrated by only being judged for how they look (a little ironic).

But given your list of what you value, it's no surprise then, assuming that you don't have these things, that you would be extremely dissatisfied.  Especially since none on the list are ones you can control.

I haven't read your whole story - did your girlfriend leave you for someone that is extremely good looking?

Actually, no. No she didn't leave me for someone extremely good looking. Hasn't left me, actually. It's this feeling of being easily replaced.

[yeeter]

Actually, no. No she didn't leave me for someone extremely good looking. Hasn't left me, actually.

It's this feeling of being easily replaced.

Easily replaced?  I'm not sure I understand.  Do you think she only cares about your looks?  (I understand these are your values, but what does she feel is important?)

[Vatz]

Easily replaced?  I'm not sure I understand.  Do you think she only cares about your looks?  (I understand these are your values, but what does she feel is important?)

Well, she finds humor, compassion and patience to be important, at least that's what she says. Yes, looks too. But from what she says it isn't the biggest priority. I've been called handsome (not just by my own family members) even though I really don't see myself that way. She says I have all those other qualities too but after her emotional affair, I just assumed everyone was just trying to be polite when they compliment me on my appearance. That they were all BSing me. I mean, why else would someone cheat?

[P.F.Change]

I mean, why else would someone cheat?

This is an area where you seem determined to be "right." You have already decided you know the answer to the question and do not want to entertain other perspectives. You say you don't want to change these beliefs. That is your right--just be aware that they are keeping you trapped in a hate spiral. If you want to get out, you are going to have to find a way to entertain the possibility that those beliefs aren't helping you grow.

Affairs are almost always psychological/emotional in origin. Even with someone who is very physically attractive, the *reason* someone cheats has little to do with that. As I said before, someone with a solid psychological and emotional constitution who values fidelity and has boundaries hat reflect that would not ever cheat. People who are not taking care of their psychological and emotional needs--such as someone with BPD, or someone who allows anger and self-hatred to rule their thoughts--those people are more likely to use others to make themselves feel wanted. They find lots of reasons to justify their cheating behavior: They claim they're not really cheating, or that their cheating partner deserves to know how it feels, or that anyone else would do the same thing in their shoes. They need their denial so they don't have to change what they're doing. Affairs happen when people aren't willing to do the work it takes to resolve their own personal issues.

You say this is about a feeling of being "easily replaced." That feeling is coming from within you and has nothing to do with your SO and even less to do with your outward appearance. People with BPD who cheat are doing it because they are trying to use others to fill their unmet psychological needs.  It has nothing to do with the desirablity of their partner. If your SO has BPD, she has skewed judgement. It doesn't make sense to decide that how she sees you is how you are. You feel easily replaced because you do not value yourself. That is something to work on in T.

[Vatz]

Okay, but what about people who are perfectly sane that do cheat?

No seriously, no mental health problems, no self-esteem issues, no baggage. They cheat on their spouse because the other person is simply better looking?

Can you be totally sure that such a scenario doesn't exist?

I mean, if anyone where to judge peoples behavior by craigslist, women aren't looking for uglier lovers, or guys who are roughly the same as their husbands. They almost always want someone better looking. You look at the ads and it paints a picture of what women are ACTUALLY looking for in a lover.

Look, I won't accuse anyone on here of this kind of thinking, but this has been my observation of people's behavior.

I'm just saying, over the years I have seen a few things. Not saying other people's experiences aren't different.

As for going into therapy, I've already been looking for places that take my insurance. But chances are I'm going back to the practice I went to up until about six months ago.

[P.F.Change]

Okay, but what about people who are perfectly sane that do cheat?

No seriously, no mental health problems, no self-esteem issues, no baggage. They cheat on their spouse because the other person is simply better looking?

Sanity has nothing to do with it. As I've said before, it is about values and boundaries. Someone who cheats does not value fidelity enough to have protective boundaries in place. Someone who does value fidelity will not cheat no matter how attractive or seductive the other person is. It's really not about looks, even if people want to use that as an excuse.

I'm glad you are still looking into T. You will have to let us know how that goes. I hope you are able to get to the root of your unhappiness.

PF