Maybe I Spoke too Soon

[kl315]

Oy vey... .  he is being such a pill tonight. After the happy surprise of my dBPDbf shaving his head in sympathy for my lost hair (chemo), and the kindness and support he's shown very recently, I discovered that he was in a bad mood tonight. Apparently, he is having some sort of issue with his mom over some family business and was quite grouchy. I can relate (it isn't just pwBPD that experience periodic grouchiness) so I asked if he needed to talk. He said no. I then told him I was sorry he was having a bad night, was here if he decided he wanted to vent and I would catch up with him tomorrow.

He responded with a snarky comment about me trying to stop talking because he was in a bad mood. I told him that I was sorry if it came off that way and reiterated that he could talk about the problem, or anything else, if he wanted. Again, he said "no" so I just said "ok" and left it at that. I said I had to help my daughter with homework and we ended the conversation.

I then get a text telling me that he's done all these things trying to make me happy, and nothing is good enough, just like when he was married. I say, "You've done some wonderful things for me lately, I'm very grateful and I'd be happy to talk to you, any time, about anything you want. What movie are you going to watch tonight?" (guessing he didn't want to discuss his mom and just trying to start a neutral conversation). He said, "Never mind, now you're just being silly."

At this point I've had about enough. My teenager is having an emotional breakdown over a school project, my dog is barking incessantly at the imaginary squirrels outside the back door, one of my clients is calling me at 9:30 PM with something that could have totally waited until 9:30 AM and I'm feeling the beginnings of a monster headache. I should have simply stopped responding... .  but oh no... .  why take the high road when we can do something to add fuel to the fire?

So I said, "I'm getting that you're not happy tonight and I'm still willing to have any conversation you'd like to have, but I'm not going to argue any more tonight. It's not good for either one of us. If you'd like me to help you get your mind off of things, feel free to call. But I will not keep responding to texts that are designed to lead to an argument. I love you... .  goodnight."

He says, "Thanks SO much for validating my feelings" (yes, that was sarcasm).

Hmmm.

Then, "Next time YOU need to talk, you should find someone else."

So I said, "Goodnight J. Sleep well. Talk to you tomorrow." He said, "Goodnight".

I absolutely know he was pissed at his mom and was taking it out on me. He wanted to argue with her and couldn't, so he tried to argue with me instead. When I didn't give him the knock down drag out he wanted, it somehow made it worse. But I'm not going to fight for the sake of fighting. Maybe I could have told him he could pretend I was his mom and say to me whatever it was he wanted to say to her. Their relationship causes him a great deal of stress and I feel bad, but I'm not her! Anyway, I'm not terribly upset about this little fiasco because I understand where it came from, but I am annoyed. I thought I was validating for the most part. Is there anything else I could have said?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[elemental]

Let him self soothe.

You did fine. 

[patientandclear]

Totally agree with Elemental.  Don't think you could have done better.  Bravo.  (And you know what? I'm sure he agrees & will tell you so in a week or so!  If not tomorrow!)

I don't think  you added fuel to the fire, and I don't think it would have better to stop responding.  Honestly, I really hate the "just stop responding to texts" route.  I think it's better to show up, lovingly explain you are disengaging but available if he wants to talk on other terms, and affirm that you care.

A+

[Seahorse1]

I think you handled it fine ... .  

The trouble is when they create these situations it is exhausting to manage them... .  Or at least it is for me as I'm new at using the communication tools... .  

Next step is finding a way for it to not affect you and drain your energy!

[kl315]

Thanks for the encouragement. Looking back on the texts, I think I did all right.

The good thing is, I've grown used to these outbursts and they don't bother me so much anymore. The bad thing is, I've grown used to these outbursts and they don't bother me so much anymore.

How many of us here have grown numb to our pwBPD's erratic behavior and accept what we would have never tolerated from anyone else?

[elemental]

I think part of the radical acceptance and detachment process IS accepting these things will happen. You aren't saying it's ok, or that you agree with them.

Your expectations are re-set as a result.

So are mine.

[CodependentHusband]

wow... .  as I was reading your original post, I thought a full-blown rage was going to be how it ended... .  I sense that you think that you should have cut the communication even shorter. You know, I agree... .  it might have made things better; however, I agree with others. You did VERY well with how you ended the conversation. It's good that you are reflecting on it, and thinking of ways to make things better, even with communication exchanges that are "good" when compared some some of the high-drama situations we sometimes find ourselves in.

So, don't beat yourself up over it... .  you did great! I went through the EXACT same process, and your post reminds me of it. I may be over-compensating, or taking this to an extreme, but as soon as I detect that my dBPDw is in an irritable mood, I make myself scarce, usually in another room of the house for the bulk of a day or evening, depending on the day of the week. With the very first indication that she is stressed, I can usually tell if she wants to vent to me or ask for some advice. If she does, I'm there for her, for at least a few minutes. If she wants to have a discussion with me, I'll listen and offer advice (only if she asks). If she starts talking in circles or shows irritation towards me, I politely excuse myself to do something else. I've long since lost count of how many times I do this, so, there is no telling how many times I've avoided being a target of her dysregulation... .  means I spend far less time communicating with her than I would prefer, but at least it keeps our interactions more positive.

... .  It's almost like walking up to a snack vending machine... .  What's in the machine is going to vary from day to day... .  some days all there is in the machine is Resentment^TM, Irritation^TM, Rage^TM... .  If there is no Sharing^TM, Affection^TM, or, heck... .  just plain Doritos^TM, I usually just walk away and try again the next day.  

[Cardinals in Flight]

You did real good  

He was at his "emotional supportive good self limit"! When he had an issue with dear old mom? He had nothing, his tank was empty!  He used all his gas on you! Lol

I so get it with the, "I'm used to it", it's reality within our pwBPD

CiF

[kl315]

I like the snack machine reference. I think that analogy can be applied to most relationships... .  except the BPD snack machine contains items from some sort of specialty store on the planet Eggshell.

The past few "episodes" we've had, he hasn't raged. I attribute some of that to how I handle the problem on my end, but I also see him recognizing what's happening and reigning himself in a bit.

His mom is a continual trigger. I'm not sure she has BPD... .  it doesn't quite fit but there is definitely something going on there. Of course, five years ago she had to pick her 35 year old son up off the ground, support him for a couple of years and be his sole support through the time between the crash and his eventual diagnosis. Regardless of what occured in their past that might have contributed to his disorder, I know for a fact that she has been there for him in a big way. She might just be exhausted!

I have to wonder how the people who have been in relationships with pwBPD for years, or decades, manage.

[CodependentHusband]

The past few "episodes" we've had, he hasn't raged. I attribute some of that to how I handle the problem on my end, but I also see him recognizing what's happening and reigning himself in a bit.

Maybe... .  I have seen a change in how my dBPDw behaves, but, honestly, I think for me it's more my protecting my own boundaries that makes my r/s with my wife better. It really does seem that the number of times I see my wife struggle is about the same as it always has been... .  the difference is that a much lower ratio of those episodes involve me. Setting up a wall and not taking any personal ownership on MY part for HER struggles has helped me directly by giving me a lot more peace. She has benfitted because I'm not getting involved and raising her emotions to an even higher intensity, despite my best efforts in the past to help her.

I have to wonder how the people who have been in relationships with pwBPD for years, or decades, manage.

I don't know... .  I certainly can't speak from the staNPDoint of years, and certainly not decades, but in the course of 2 and a half years of marriage (3 years with my pwBPD total), I can say that being where I was in November 2011 was a very bad place indeed. I suspect that some have found their way to a better r/s on their own, others have found it through the help of others (through therapy and support groups like this one), and others continue to struggle. One thing I am convinced of though is that living in chaos like that is pure hell, and I wonder more about the WHY than the HOW when I think about someone living in chaos for so many years.

[patientandclear]

The good thing is, I've grown used to these outbursts and they don't bother me so much anymore. The bad thing is, I've grown used to these outbursts and they don't bother me so much anymore.

How true.  But I like to think of it as having a decoder ring -- the sounds would mean rotten things to the untrained ear, but to you with the decoder ring, they actually mean something else. And they really do mean something else.

His stuff is so 180 degrees off from what is going on (you aren't willing to talk when you just said 6 times you are willing to talk; you aren't supportive when you've been completely supportive & he is bagging on you ... .  and so on).  I hope in some ways that makes it easier, because there is no theory under which any of what he is saying is true.  Amazing displacement/projection pattern he's got going.

In the end though, I think the question you keep coming back to (same one you raised on your "I deserve better" thread) is: is it worth it?  and is it just too much?  I loved what you said about accepting that he is like a cat, but not being sure you want to date a cat.

I am really sobered by the fact that this happens regularly with your partner who is diagnosed, not resistant to that, and well into DBT.  Makes me realize just how immense the task of regulating his emotions is for my undiagnosed, untreated ex.

[kl315]

Patient... .  these are the things that keep me up at night. I read another post by someone whose pwBPD had been in therapy for YEARS and he was still raging and push/pulling frequently. I don't think I want to still be doing this at this frequency when I'm in my 60's or more.

I've noticed that his peaks and valleys are a little lower and a little more shallow than they used to be. When he's not in one of those phases, the relationship is closer to what I would consider "normal" (and I know that means something different for everyone). But here's the thing. When he gets like this, it may irritate me and cause some stress, but I don't become sad anymore and I become less and less distressed about whether or not he'll reappear after a period of silence. I don't know if this means I'm just dealing with it better or my feelings for him are being affected by his behavior. All I know is that it's beginning to make me tired. And I don't need to be any more tired than I already am right now.

He hasn't called today. His normal pattern is some sort of contact on day three after the episode. I'm not going to reach out to him at all this time. I just can't. Between treatment and the new job I don't have time to worry about what he's doing or not doing. I'll have to think about what I'll say when he does call. The more I think about how he compared our relationship to his past marriage though, the more it sticks in my craw even though I know it's not true. His ex was a horrid b*tch. If he really thinks I treat him anything like she did, we shouldn't be together.

I know you've talked about how difficult it is to maintain such a close relationship with your pwBPD and resist adding a romantic element, but sometimes I wonder if that would be a healthier type of relationship for both myself and my pwBPD right now. Don't know if he could even go back there at this point.

[patientandclear]

The comment about his marriage brought me up short, too.  "Nothing is ever good enough, just like in my marriage" ... .  uh, ok.  You can let stuff like that roll off your back, but at some point, doesn't it feel like you've been dropped into a narrative that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with you, or anything you do?  Like you're almost a blank canvas and they paint on there whatever they need to tell their story?  Sometimes it's more accurate than other times ("I remember how you are supportive, patient & caring!", but it feels like those times are almost as random as the inaccurate times.  Like how a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Did you know their r/s when he was married, so you have some objective sense?  My ex tells a story of his one long term r/s (other than his marriage) in which his gf was emotionally withholding & abusive, but sometimes I really really wonder about that.  Apparently after they finally split, about a year later, she asked him to get together & had an accountability session in which she told him it was all his fault.  Sounds like some sort of therapy-inspired reckoning to me, and I wonder if maybe she wasn't largely correct.  After all, if up is down and down is up so often even with us -- tolerant and patient and understanding as we are -- maybe that's how it is with everyone.

My ex's ex-wife & long term gf were both alcoholics.  Sometimes (often), I wonder how they got that way.

Related to that, I think, my ex has been saying a lot lately that I am "naive."  (Then he gets worried that he is offending me & says he means it with all the good connotations of that term )  My theory: he thinks I am naive because I still like him after all the ___ he has done since we started dating.  Which pales in comparison to some things I've read on these boards (he doesn't rage, he just disappears, but boy, is he good at that, complete with a tight rationalization he won't surrender until he's ready to come back).

I think they have a really hard time accepting that you can both be good, and love them.  I know we all know that, but when you think about what that really means ... .  I think it facilitates them reaching for these concepts that you are ungrateful, or self-involved, or unsteady, or too demanding, or not supportive ... .  all this crap that actually matches better their image of the kind of person they deserve.

Sigh.  At its best, this stuff is so hard.  I think it is really healthy you are asking the questions you are asking, though I don't presume to know whether it is worth it.

On the friends thing ... .  while it's hard to fight off my longing for more, I am CERTAIN I could not be involved with this man as more than friends.  It would tear me up all the time.  "Friends" matches what he can do, better than lovers.  It sets him up for possible success, not certain failure, if that makes sense.

That said, I feel like we are engaged in an undeclared romance.  It reminds me of your situation in some ways -- because you are long distance, de facto, the arrangements are similar.  Texting about movies, last texts of the night, emails, occasionally seeing each other. The difference is (i) the "I love yous," which I've found we don't need because we are showing each other, not telling each other, that we love each other; and (ii) sex when together.

If you could do without those two things, maybe what he can do would match a "friends" scenario better and with less pressure.

On the other hand, for that to come from you rather than him will no doubt be interpreted as a big rejection, and prompt a massive pull, like it did last time.  That would be hard to resist, for me.  But maybe it's just a question of clear boundaries: "until you are able to manage your emotions without taking them out of me, I need to love you from a position of more distance."  Then maybe he WILL work his butt off in DBT for 6 more months and surprise you again with his progress.

[kl315]

I did know something about his marriage. As you can imagine, he wasn't the perfect husband, but she was perfectly awful. That's what ticks me off about the comment. I'm not perfect but I'm confident that his ex and I have very little in common when it comes to how we treat our SO's.

I agree with you that asking to take a step back to friendship would probably result in a cataclysmic blow up followed by his tractor beam at full power.  But more and more, I feel like that would be the best thing. The highs of adoration, repeated apologies and declarations of love can be as disruptive as the pushing, projection and nastiness.

I'm literally in a prize fight for my life here and I feel like his mood swings have tied one hand behind my back. My greatest concern should be sticking around to see my daughter grow up. But I'm sitting on my bathroom floor today thinking, "Well great. He picked a fight, insulted me, and now HE's not talking to ME again." I found myself wishing that a bird would poop on his newly bald head (actually, that would probably be messier with hair, but it's what came to mind).

Anyway, I'm now wondering how to properly break up with a pwBPD. If he were to suggest a friendship and mean it, I would probably jump at it. Not that I don't still love him and I doubt I could do what you do and frequently spend time with him now if we were just friends. But while I'm dealing with my health issues, he's kind of driving me nuts.

A question... .  does your exbf ever attempt to cross the line and if not, how would you handle it if he did?

[kl315]

The way my feelings about this relationship have been yo-yoing lately, I feel as if I have BPD by association!

[patientandclear]

A question... .  does your exbf ever attempt to cross the line and if not, how would you handle it if he did?

Instead of attempting to cross the line, as it were, he pre-emptively sort of breaks up with me as soon as we get to the point where it seems like resuming an avowedly romantic/sexual partnership would be the obvious next step -- the first time, we got super close, then he distanced me for a couple of weeks, then announced that he only wanted to be friends (to which my reaction was -- right, I already got that memo!), "which accounts for the distance lately."  Since my reaction that that first mini-break-up-even-though-we-weren't-dating, which I think made him feel a little ridiculous (I pointed out I never remotely suggested anything other than friends and wouldn't be open to it under present circumstances and said to be extra clear, we should step back so there could be no question what was going on ... .  he came rushing back with "oh no, I don't want to step back, the value of our relationship is that we are this close and open", he hasn't made any more dramatic announcements, but he still very predictably climbs toward a point where we are very close and then bails and then reaches back.

I would like to say that if he just asked to kiss or hold hands, I would be clear that that was a mistake and not cross that line.  Sitting here typing this, I know he is not a safe person for me to be sexually involved with, because for me that involves a level of vulnerability that doesn't reconcile with being regularly abandoned.  But I'm not sure.  I spend a lot of time forcing myself to remember that truth, so obviously, there is a part of me that really wants to forget it.

[kl315]

The hell they must live in. The relationships I have with the people I love are more important to me that anything else on this planet. I cannot imagine what it would be like to never really be able to have confidence in those relationships, or to never be able to attain real intimacy with other people.

[kl315]

Dilemas... .  I know he's in a dark, awful place right now because he has been completely inactive on FB and the couple of games he loves to play during his down time. I know from experience that this means his bipolar disorder has kicked in and taken him to a very low point (he doesn't really have manic highs... .  just lows and peaks that most would consider "normal". He has gone silent again. And even though the way the conversation ended the other night was no fault of mine, and even though he is punishing me for his own bad behavior, part of me wants to go wrap my arms around him and make it as "better" as I can. The other part hopes he stays silent this time and moves on. 

[patientandclear]

 

As you said -- the hell this must be for them.  I totally understand both impulses you feel, and at times, I would do either of them.

Have you read The Buddha and the Borderline? The author (who is dBPD) describes lying in bed on one of her ultra hard days, and just wishing someone would hold her.  Then her mom got in bed with her (she's an adult but had retreated to her mom's house because things were so bad), and held her.  And it still didn't reach the hurt place inside her.  And then she noticed some trinket hanging on the wall that her mom had brought her from some trip, and she realized that probably her mom really did love her a lot, and then she started to wonder if the problem wasn't that the love was flawed -- which is how it had always felt -- but that she just couldn't let herself feel it.  And she decided it was the latter.

As someone wrote to me on a thread I started a few weeks ago, all the options feel wrong because there is no right answer.  The disorder does not allow a right answer -- it's a problem unsolvable by anything we do.

BTW in Buddha & the Borderline, she is super serious about treatment and is in DBT for years, and only at that point does she reach a place where she can wean herself away from using relationships like a drug, and tolerate being by herself.  At the end of the book she is still really far from being able to feel that someone will love her for herself, in a way she can trust, though she says that is still her hope someday.

I wonder how much of our continued motivation is based on the hope of significant progress, because that seems so elusive.

[elemental]

I think they run and hide. Feel unlovable, shamed for themselves. If they are unlovable, they will not be loved. If they were loved, and are now unlovable... then they do not matter to anyone.

Self anhilation and trapped in the maze of it in their minds. If you don't matter, you don't exist because everyone, all of us, look for evidence of who we really are in what our partners reflect back to us.

Partner is not happy and is reflecting back... disappointment, pain, anger, partner backs away, and BPD can see the fading away of love. Partner is a mirror and all BPD sees is love fading, partner fading... and who likes to have the suspense of a slow painful death? BPD can't sit still, so runs away, and they think they can make it a quick death by first leaving and then sinking into themselves and agreeing somewhere a painful truth: they don't really exist and are all alone because they have been so bad that they are not loved. Most people are loved and who has been so vile and terrible that love always leaves?

BPD. Might as well give it up and not bother with it all in the first place.

I think, honestly, BPD goes in cycles through this and when they get tired of the loss of hope, they become angry and rage.

My BPD... I can feel this in him. I keep thinking he needs to try to sort through himself and though *I* would feel better to reassure... .  I don't know if it would really help him.

I don't know what to do either. Tonight I probably shouldn't do anything. Maybe you just do what I do. Take care of self. 

[kl315]

Elemental, I think you are correct. I do or say something that I would consider one of the many small, loving, caring things that people in a relationship do for each other on a regular basis, and he will usually act surprised. For instance, a week and a half ago he mentioned that he was going to the doctor to have a small spot of skin cancer removed this past Tuesday. Nothing particularly dangerous or invasive and the removal would only require a couple of stiches. He didn't mention it again after the initial discussion, but I remembered that he was going and sent him a humorous eCard in reference to it.

He called me and couldn't believe that I had remembered he was going, and was literally in awe that I "cared" enough to not only remember, but to send him something. He kept saying, "You really love me, don't you?" like he couldn't quite believe it.

On the flip side, a disagreement small enough to not even register with most people, leads him to believe that I am never happy with anything he does and I don't love him or care about him enough. As for reassurance, sometimes it helps but sometimes it only upsets him further because he truly can't believe it.

Patient,  I have not read the book but that is disheartening. And I do sense the "unsolvability" of many of our issues. I'm a "problem solver" type so this doesn't sit well with me.