Do they ever realize the actions hurt others?

[Mike76]

As I am putting my plan to leave my uBPDw, I am wondering a question.  Do they ever realize what they do and how much they hurt us.

Example(although the time have been rather few, they still scared me).  The physical abuse(push, punch, etc)

When I mention those times  they are still also my fault, and she claims they will happen again.  Do they ever realize they are wrong?

[Newton]

IMO they act like they "realise" they are in the wrong for as long as their feeling of guilt, shame lasts.  Once this feeling has passed (if they got to it at all in the first place)... .  their reality has changed to fit their current mood.

If we have been split and recycled a few times then it's unlikely we will even get the "sorry"... .  

[myself]

Yes. They know and see how they hurt others. My ex was well aware of it. I asked her many times to stop, to make up for what she did. She knew it was wrong. A lot of their actions are intentional, and they very often get a certain amount of satisfaction knowing they have cast their darkness out onto others. Then it will be denied, covered up, rewritten, blamed on you or someone else, etc., all while dishing out more pain. They 'realize', but avoid it. May do enough to be forgiven, or keep someone around, but actually deeply acknowledging what they are responsible for, apologizing for their actions, and enacting real long-lasting positive change is likely not going to occur.

[just me.]

In my experience, they *realize* it in the sense that they are able to apply words such as "wrong" and "hurtful" and "terrible" to their actions (although perhaps only for a fleeting moment).  They do not, however, *realize* it in the sense that their actions necessitate any attempts to make it better... .  or to truly learn from their mistakes.

If a healthy person realizes that they are hurting people that do not deserve it - then the challenge typically becomes a matter of how to fix it in any way that they can, and also initiate enough self-examination to try to avoid doing it again.

If someone with BPD realizes (momentarily) that they are hurting someone that doesn't deserve it - then it seems the response is more to just panic, decide that all of their worst nightmares are true, and then ultimately kick and scream and run until they can finally open their eyes and see a different, less painful reality.  It stops being their fault... .  their nightmares aren't true... .  somehow it's their association with you that made their world all dark.

How dare you.

[Mike76]

Part of the problem is I do not think she ever does... .  If so topic is issue happened in the past(where she raged or flipped out), she always says its there fault... .  there are idiots... .  the other person is always wrong.  Mu uBPDw never accepts responsibly for any problems.

[HarmKrakow]

I seriously think most of these people lack the empathy to understand 'our' feelings. They might say they realize they hurt you, but they are just as easily cutting of contact and continue their lives as if nothing has happened.

[Wooddragon]

I agree with what others have said. I think they "realise" it in a theoretical sense - and realise that others get upset - but they have no capacity to actually understand.  Being masters at self justification & blame seems to resolve any potential feelings of guilt or regret.

[HarmKrakow]

I agree with what others have said. I think they "realise" it in a theoretical sense - and realise that others get upset - but they have no capacity to actually understand.  Being masters at self justification & blame seems to resolve any potential feelings of guilt or regret.

It actually makes me mad again realizing all the nights I cried about her, and her telling me, what are you crying for? 

[just me.]

I think the underlying problem in this is that the internal sentiment "I wouldn't have done it if they didn't somehow deserve it" is a logic that makes sense to them... .  and is one they are comfortable relying upon infinite times in this lifetime if necessary.

In my case - I could see her gears spinning for an answer... .  and it would always amount to "maybe what I did was hurtful, but you actually deserved it!  How terrible must you be for that to be the case?  My goodness... .  we're talking about some silly thing I did, when you're actually terrible enough to have deserved it?  :)o you have any idea what it's like to love someone who is so terrible?  Let's focus on that!  You think we're okay?  We're not okay!  I'm going to get in that van and take off and you'll never see me again... .  and then you'll be sorry!"

Those tornadoes would eventually be fought through... .  and eventually it would "click" for her that I loved her soo much... .  and she was willing to forgive me... .  and she'd "believe" that there was still hope that I could stop letting her down.  And it would usually come after the make-up sex that I'd reflect, and remember vaguely that this had all started because she had actually really, truly hurt me.

Is that what she's thinking about right then?

No... .  that part of the equation is gone forever.  All that she'll remember is that she eventually agreed to give me yet another chance... .  and I sure as heck had better make good this time.

It was just the way her mind worked.

----

And so to answer your original question more specifically:  No, I don't believe they will ever realize they are wrong.  History is revised at almost the same moment it is happening, and their modified interpretation of what happened, why they did it, and who actually hurt who becomes the only reality they can remember.  The "truth" as we know it is gone from them, and I don't think it somehow re-appears at some point.  At least... .  I never saw it happen.

[just me.]

I should add, though, that my ex would see moments of clarity, where she would observe herself as a confused, desperate, harmful person.  She would even provide beautiful heartfelt apologies for everything in these moments... .  

but these were fleeting, and they always carried some careful caveat that I still, of course, did actually deserve the individual actions.  The "I may very well be crazy, but that doesn't mean that everything I do and feel and think isn't 100% right!" phenomenon.

It doesn't make sense... .  but it's a mental illness.

[johnnyonthespot]

Just me,

Love your observations.

However those moments of clarity, I believe, were actually moments of manipulation.

My T has helped me realize that no, they absolutely do not care. And that's why they're on the 'borderline.'

Very hard to accept.

[bb12]

Part of the illness is an over-pre-occupation with self.

As hard as it is to get our heads around it, their needs and wants come first... .  and way ahead of any concern for you!

They lack empathy -ergo, they do not genuinely consider our feelings... .  ever.

They are self-centred, pleasure seeking machines. You only factor in so far as ensuring a steady source of supply. One of the hardest things for me to get my head around (as I tried to say it louder) was that, as my exBPD doled out the silent treatment, he wasn't thinking of me... .  of the pain he'd cause me... .  of the effect of his actions. Surely this was hurting him too, right? Wrong!

He was thinking of himself... .  only himself... .  only ever himself

We need to get this... .  and believe it, because it sets us free.

We don't think badly of a crocodile for eating a wilderbeast crossing the river! It's just what they do.

Learn to spot a crocodile sooner... .  rather than waste another second wondering how to change it or make it apologise!

bb12

[just me.]

Just me,

Love your observations.

However those moments of clarity, I believe, were actually moments of manipulation.

My T has helped me realize that no, they absolutely do not care. And that's why they're on the 'borderline.'

Very hard to accept.

You make a good point.  I am curious if the discrepancy in the interpretation is due perhaps more to a misunderstanding on my part, or perhaps my poor choice of words.

My use of the words "heartfelt apologies" suggests genuine remorse, and was therefore a poor choice of words on my part.  I don't believe me experiencing pain is something she ever actually cared about, but I do believe that her self-image as a "good person" was of overwhelming importance to her.  Her moments of clarity therefore revolved more around her slightly accurate (and therefore devastating) perceptions of herself than they did around the pain she may have caused to others.  Her tears in those moments were of course very sad... .  but they were still all for her and her own tortured soul.

Much of her behavior (and many of her tears) I would unhesitatingly describe as manipulative, but those rare moments I did feel like I'd get a window into the truth of the scared little girl that exists buried underneath everything else inside her.  Worth appreciating or sympathizing with?  Maybe not... .  but manipulative?  I'm not inclined to think so.

But maybe I'm wrong.

[Jay08]

Absolutely they do.

Here is a post by a user under the name "jophil28" who put it all into perspective for me on why they push/pull and leave you bleeding.

QUOTE:

That ~ tactic is SOP for BPD chicas.

To the uninitiated , it is easily confused with the ditzy 'push/pull' that some 'normal' woman do.

However,the BPD version is a vicious manipulative power game. Its purpose is to impale you on an emotional torture stake of her creation. She wants to see you squirm in pain and absolute confusion while she smirkes in her perceived victory.

That is their trip toward the end of your relationship with her. She MUST wound you and then discard the carcass. BPDs do not just leave relationships, they attempt to annihilate their hostage.

She needs to assert absolute control and then discard you in pain, and some do it several times over.

I think that is their way of removing any feeling that they were abandoned by you. Abandonment IS their most feared dragon. By crushing you emotionally, they kill the dragon.

They're actions, although maybe subconscious some points, are for their own defense.

Remember, anything to forget the shame, even if it means taking your emotional well being away. Good luck brother.

[bpdspell]

As I am putting my plan to leave my uBPDw, I am wondering a question.  :)o they ever realize what they do and how much they hurt us.

Example(although the time have been rather few, they still scared me).  The physical abuse(push, punch, etc)

When I mention those times  they are still also my fault, and she claims they will happen again.  :)o they ever realize they are wrong?

Hey Mike76,

BPD is a spectrum disorder.

This means that it's utterly impossible to lump all BPD's together in terms of black and white thinking. Some have shades of empathy more than others. Some know when they hurt others and apologize at best and some blame and project where they never apologize ever. My ex apologized for his behavior many times; but I misunderstood his apologies for meaning that he understood the pain he caused me. The apologies came easily but it was the lack of amends that was the kick in the gut. So in many ways his apologies were empty and perfunctory. His apologies were to get himself off the hook of his own shame. He knew when he was wrong; but he couldn't feel my pain because he was so obsessed with his own.

We have to understand that they were never relating to us like we believed them to be.    It's not slapped on their foreheads but they view others outside of themselves as objects and possessions. Because of their deep insecurity, pathological thinking, and their victimization story it's all about them: their needs, what they feel you can give them, and how they can get you to meet whatever needs they have in the moment. It sounds personal and intentionally brutal but in most cases it's out of pure survival. In most cases they are looking to be reparented. They are the child and we are the parent who comes to their rescue. As soon as we have demands for our own needs is when all hell breaks loose. They cannot reciprocate our needs because they never expected to.

The relationship was never about two emotionally mature adults and reciprocity; it was always about them getting us to fill their bottomless pit of need.

Because of the disorder they really have no room for anyone else's feelings other than their own. Can they feel bad about their behavior? Yes. And it often manifest as shame. It may be difficult to see particularly in the early stages of understanding BPD but they are managing a lot of shame & pain buried underneath and it's really painful for them. So painful that they can't really care about the feelings of others.

Spell

[bb12]

Great post BPDspell!

I can forget to go to motive sometimes and that they are reacting automatically to core feelings of shame. Doesn't reduce the severity of the abuse or demonstrate whether they deliberately hurt us... .  As you say, that depends on where they are in the spectrum... .  But it reminds me to try to go to forgiveness more than I sometimes do

Bb12

[ron7127]

my therapist said something to me that made sense. I recounted an incident where I told my XW how badly something she was doing was hurting me. She replied " I do not care how you feel".

My T said " for once, she was telling you the truth".

I am convinced that this is true about many of these folks. A someone said, they lack empathy and they truly do not care.

[HarmKrakow]

my therapist said something to me that made sense. I recounted an incident where I told my XW how badly something she was doing was hurting me. She replied " I do not care how you feel".

My T said " for once, she was telling you the truth".

I am convinced that this is true about many of these folks. A someone said, they lack empathy and they truly do not care.

Yip, my GF w BPD also told me very often, you can cry as much as you want. It doesn't affect me at all. (Ofc, first thought in MY head is, that can't be true ... (then you read stuff about BPD) ... I guess it CAN be true  )

[Rose Tiger]

With the ex, if I attempted to tell him that something he had done or said upset me, he would twist it around and say, your happiness is your responsibility.  He said that is boundaries, that he can't be responsible for my happiness.



I told him, ok, if I stomp on his foot as hard as I could, it was his responsibility for how he felt about that.

No, he didn't get it.  He didn't care.  He thought me feeling upset was not his problem.  And if I was upset about anything in my life, I needed to get over it pronto.

[Newton]

good call Rose ... .  double standards suck!... .  (mini vent over  )

[seeking balance]

As I am putting my plan to leave my uBPDw, I am wondering a question.  Do they ever realize what they do and how much they hurt us.

Example(although the time have been rather few, they still scared me).  The physical abuse(push, punch, etc)

When I mention those times  they are still also my fault, and she claims they will happen again.  Do they ever realize they are wrong?

yes, they know on some level.  Keep in mind, pwBPD feel things at a much more intense level than you are me... .  so, when they feel that shame - this is when 1 of 2 things happen.

1.  suicide thoughts and depression - remember, black/white thinking will lead to the thought process "I must be all bad, why should I be here"

2.  maladaptive coping - meaning, this is when we may see projection, gaslighting, rage or any of the other actions that we tend to try and figure out on these boards.

Which is better really? 

We seem to get stuck into thinking they are like us logically on emotions - can you see how that is faulty thinking on our parts?

To heal - we must focus on why we may want them or care if they ever realize.  This is not an easy place to get to - trust me, I went through my own thoughts like this... .  eventually, I learned enough about BPD to where I could detach enough to realize those actions were not about me - and in doing so - I had to grieve the loss of what I thought was the person I would be with forever.

[20years]

He realised only to well that his behaviour was extreme and totally unnaceptable. We would talk for hours, days and weeks about major incidents and situations that he had placed me in after they had occurred over a 20 year period.

"Oh it won't happen again I will make it sure doesn't "

" I truly am so very sorry "

A few years down the line it was "I don't want to discuss it" after yet another incident and police involvement (repeated arrests)  and he then said "I will never say sorry to you ever again" and he never did.

Was that perhaps because fundamentally he knew nothing would change because he wasn't prepared to invest in himself or me and his child and make the necessary changes.

[GreenMango]

Like SeekingBalance mentioned sometimes we think a person with this disorder thinks the same or feels the same.

One of those 10 beliefs.


Unfortunately, one of the impairments that is part of the disorder is empathy.

1 Impairments  The must be impairments in self functioning AND impairments in interpersonal functioning (more on this later)

In the DSM 5, the essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose borderline personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

Self (impairment in at least 1):

Identity: Experience of oneself as unique, with clear boundaries between self and others; stability of self-esteem and accuracy of self-appraisal; capacity for, and ability to regulate, a range of emotional experience.  To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Self-direction: Pursuit of coherent and meaningful short-term and life goals; utilization of constructive and prosocial internal standards of behavior; ability to self-reflect productively.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Interpersonal (impairment in at least 1):

Empathy*: Comprehension and appreciation of others’ experiences and motivations; tolerance of differing perspectives; understanding of the effects of own behavior on others.    To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Intimacy*: Depth and duration of positive connections with others; desire and capacity for closeness; mutuality of regard reflected in interpersonal behavior.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).



Below is the scale for "empathy".  There are four scales in total (identity, self direction, empathy, intimacy).  To me, it is facinating to see "empathy" defined in such clear terms.

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing.  Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering.  Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4)  Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance).  Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.[/quote]
Sometimes the empathy scale fluctuates dependent on emotional stability of the person at any given time. 

Where would you rate your wife?  And yourself.  I know I struggled with empathy especially at the end.

[Diana82]

I think they must... but they don't care because THEY need to be the victim.

I strongly believe my ex thrives on being the eternal victim. It doesn't matter that she dumped me... she is still the poor victim.

It didn't matter how rude she was to me... .  I told her off and I get lumped as the one who "burned her" and has a "mean streak".

My ex reeled me in with her victimhood antics... .  and she's still playing the victim even after dumping me.

She has smeared me to people... and she knows I am a good person. But she has to do it for her own survival I believe. To justify leaving me over a fight.

She is so messed and in need of validation... she needs to garner sympathy from others over false accusations.

[Rose Tiger]

It's extremely invalidating when you tell someone that you are upset and they show no concern.  Ex did at first, I suppose it was part of the fascade which dropped after the devalue.  I guess the enmeshment causes them to see that if they aren't upset about you, you shouldn't be.  And if they are upset about something, then you are to be upset, too.  All for one and one for all.  Once you prove to be a separate entity with your own thoughts and feelings, that's it.  You've betrayed them and can't be trusted. You are devalued and discarded.

[bpdspell]

Once you prove to be a separate entity with your own thoughts and feelings, that's it.  You've betrayed them and can't be trusted. You are devalued and discarded.