Avoidant attachment

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Broke NC with my exBPDgf few days ago, saw her, it was contentious. She had been trying to pull me back in, but one of the last things she had said in reply to me telling her I still loved her (after 30 yrs) was that I clearly had an "attachment issue."  That led me to wonder what she might be saying so I bought a number of books on attachment, and the first one was hard to read... .  painful even. "Becoming Attached" is on first relationships and how they shape our capacity to love. Well, the book talked about what happens when a mother doesn't provide what a baby needs, or is gone too long... .  how the kid protests at first, then have despair, then detachment. Even after the mother comes back the kid doesn't act quite right. If the mother continues the maternal deprivation, one of the possible outcomes is that the kid learns to be detached, and quit seeking much from the mother.

The thing is that explained so much for me. My mother's mother died when she was 5, and she was dumped at her grandparents (her dad went to WW2)... so she had serious issues, but was basically secure in making friends and dealing with people. She is not warm or a person that shows affection at all.

Growing up I had a tough time, was hyperactive, and had difficulty keeping friends, and quit trying after a certain point (we moved 4-5 times, folks divorced, and I lost all my friends with each event.) Went to 2 high schools, graduated, everyone went away, went to college, graduated, etc... .  eventually just kept everyone like a business associate. So I meet my pwBPD in college and fell for her like crazy... I think because it seemed like unconditional love and she blew bye my defenses that kept people at a distance... then when she dumped me I was destroyed.

Now after going through a second round of having her come in to my life and it turning out bad (divorce, lost family, and can't get along with her either, so I had to dump her.) I have been taking the advice on the board and looking at fixing my own issues. And it appears that I have avoidant attachment issues. It explains so much... .  I threw myself in to studies, then a job, then obsessed with hobbies, sports... .  pretty much anything to keep from facing my problems with people. Married, and my exwife kept an active social life, I traveled all the time for work, so while I never was really happy, I was busy and appeared successful.

With my exBPDgf no longer in my life, and a divorce and my exwife only on the periphery of it, its become silent around my home. I am 50 and have many hundreds of biz associates, and not even one close friend. I have visited my mom a number of times, but basically had nothing to do with her from when I was 13 till last year. Am estranged from my dad (he is NPD, and it is the right thing to do, whole family avoids him.)

So I am hoping that most people are in a better spot... to me, I make good money, am professional and have my health, look nice, and fit in with people at work... .  but have no real connection to people most the time. I had hoped all the introspection would find some simple thing that I could address that would help with making friends, and getting enjoyment out of accomplishments (I have accomplished a lot... but feel let down when I am done pursuing things) and instead feel like I am finding out that my train jumped the track early on, when my stern, non-warm or fuzzy mother, left me choosing detachment as the best way to deal with people. At 50 changing something that fundamental seems unlikely... .  and with BPD being an attachment disorder, just wondered whether others felt like they were in same situation, or if I am being premature in getting bummed that the root cause... .  looks formidable to change.

Appreciate your feedback. These boards have really helped me deal with my r/s loss with my pwBPD, and start looking at myself... .  hoping awareness will lead to improvement.

[charred]

Broke NC with my exBPDgf few days ago, saw her, it was contentious. She had been trying to pull me back in, but one of the last things she had said in reply to me telling her I still loved her (after 30 yrs) was that I clearly had an "attachment issue."  That led me to wonder what she might be saying so I bought a number of books on attachment, and the first one was hard to read... .  painful even. "Becoming Attached" is on first relationships and how they shape our capacity to love. Well, the book talked about what happens when a mother doesn't provide what a baby needs, or is gone too long... .  how the kid protests at first, then have despair, then detachment. Even after the mother comes back the kid doesn't act quite right. If the mother continues the maternal deprivation, one of the possible outcomes is that the kid learns to be detached, and quit seeking much from the mother.

The thing is that explained so much for me. My mother's mother died when she was 5, and she was dumped at her grandparents (her dad went to WW2)... so she had serious issues, but was basically secure in making friends and dealing with people. She is not warm or a person that shows affection at all.

Growing up I had a tough time, was hyperactive, and had difficulty keeping friends, and quit trying after a certain point (we moved 4-5 times, folks divorced, and I lost all my friends with each event.) Went to 2 high schools, graduated, everyone went away, went to college, graduated, etc... .  eventually just kept everyone like a business associate. So I meet my pwBPD in college and fell for her like crazy... I think because it seemed like unconditional love and she blew bye my defenses that kept people at a distance... then when she dumped me I was destroyed.

Now after going through a second round of having her come in to my life and it turning out bad (divorce, lost family, and can't get along with her either, so I had to dump her.) I have been taking the advice on the board and looking at fixing my own issues. And it appears that I have avoidant attachment issues. It explains so much... .  I threw myself in to studies, then a job, then obsessed with hobbies, sports... .  pretty much anything to keep from facing my problems with people. Married, and my exwife kept an active social life, I traveled all the time for work, so while I never was really happy, I was busy and appeared successful.

With my exBPDgf no longer in my life, and a divorce and my exwife only on the periphery of it, its become silent around my home. I am 50 and have many hundreds of biz associates, and not even one close friend. I have visited my mom a number of times, but basically had nothing to do with her from when I was 13 till last year. Am estranged from my dad (he is NPD, and it is the right thing to do, whole family avoids him.)

So I am hoping that most people are in a better spot... to me, I make good money, am professional and have my health, look nice, and fit in with people at work... .  but have no real connection to people most the time. I had hoped all the introspection would find some simple thing that I could address that would help with making friends, and getting enjoyment out of accomplishments (I have accomplished a lot... but feel let down when I am done pursuing things) and instead feel like I am finding out that my train jumped the track early on, when my stern, non-warm or fuzzy mother, left me choosing detachment as the best way to deal with people. At 50 changing something that fundamental seems unlikely... .  and with BPD being an attachment disorder, just wondered whether others felt like they were in same situation, or if I am being premature in getting bummed that the root cause... .  looks formidable to change.

Appreciate your feedback. These boards have really helped me deal with my r/s loss with my pwBPD, and start looking at myself... .  hoping awareness will lead to improvement.

[Surnia]

charred

I can relate very much. I have social and avoidant issues too. At work it goes well, I am working with a lot of people and I love it.

But I have only a few really good friends. On the other hand I can so easily being alone. Doing things at my own.

It was always like this but my shattered marriage brought this again to light and attention. I went to a T for my unlucky marriage. I am divorced now and continue my T and this is my main goal now. I want to handle this better. Having more friends, feeling good with them, being aware of my boundaries... .  social skills.

Please don't give up bc of your age. I am in the same range. I know I wont be tomorrow everyones darling on every party.    Little steps. Rewire my brain. Your brain can do it too!

[Lady31]

I can relate.  I have those avoidant issues as well. 

If I had a healthy partner who actually wanted to go deeper in intimacy I do wonder how I would handle it.  Would probably be a wee bit uncomfortable. 

I definitely believe it entirely possible to grow and change!  I am working on that now as well.

The reason - I believe - that BPDs have little hope of change is because they have so much shame that they are unable to actually look at the cracks in themselves.  They have difficulty really investigating the root and looking in the mirror on that deep level for any change to take place.

You are capable of realizing these things about yourself and moving forward to grow - so you WILL grow.  Life gets more and more beautiful. 

[bb12]

Great and thoughtful post, charred

I relate very much to it and just last week posted something on the personal inventory board about learning this amazing stuff so late in the game

For me, I slipped into detached protector mode about 15 years ago and can find myself 2 feet back in my head, observing my life but not feeling terribly present

Thought the epiphany that came with my FOO examination would make all of that go away immediately, but I guess that's not how it works

Be grateful you learned this stuff at all. BPDs ( and many nons) go to their graves not knowing themselves nearly as well as you're beginning to!

It's a brutal lesson: to see attachment issues; codependency issues etc. a little late in the game, but one can't undo the past so we should not lament our choices. All of this stuff is unfolding just as it should!

My advice is to accept the lesson but not o let it define you too much. Everything exists on a spectrum so don't be too quick with labels as panacea! Maybe you have an attachment issue. Maybe you don't.

Just face the future with your continued bravery. The awareness you now apply to all of your choices will ensure your future is bright

Bb12

[Whatwasthat]

 charred.

I wanted to say how impressive and thoughtful I found your post.

It made me think two things. Firstly it connected with some thinking I'm doing myself at the moment -  untangling the dynamics of my FOO - which are partly about my relationship with my rather emotionally awkward mother - but also my much older siblings - who I looked up to greatly (meaning 'too much!' as a child. One of them clearly has some quite deep emotional attachment issues of his own - and it's taken me decades to realise that I need to protect myself when I interact with him. The whole dynamic led  to me taking on the role of an emotional caretaker in the family whose own feelings - at best - took second place. So that's a long winded way of saying that I can relate  in some ways to what you're talking about.


The second thought is that you are on a very good path indeed. You know whenever I've finally faced a major problem in life (that I've been ignoring or simply haven't woken up to ) there's always been an awful period of seeing  the true reality of the issue - understanding it in all its difficulty and ugliness - and that - in my experience - usually has to happen before you can start working on sorting it out. I seem to remember you said you are in T? If you are - then this is your moment to start wrestling with this stuff. If not - then I would suggest getting back into T if possible. If that's not something that works for you at the moment then of course there are other ways to address these issues - not least the workshops on these boards.


What I'm trying to say is that I think being horrified and shocked at the size of the task is a positive and rational response at this time - and it's exactly what will allow you to start sorting it all out.

Finally it doesn't matter that you're 50. It really is irrelevant. As others have said many people NEVER address this stuff. I'm in my late 40s myself. There are plenty of things I'll never do now because of my age - but sitting down and unravelling the past and trying to build a better future is something that can be tackled at any stage in life.

And actually I also think that faintly panicky feeling of  - 'Oh no! I've left this too late! It's really urgent and needs to be sorted YESTERDAY. I wish I'd sorted this out 30 years ago!' can also act as a positive catalyst to let us know that something has to be a priority and is worthy of our attention. My guess is that as soon as you start to get stuck into the deep work of unravelling all of this in an ongoing way then the panic and distress will ease off.

Wishing you all the best with this! WWT

[Maryiscontrary]

If I was you, I would immediately get out and volunteer for something humanitarian. I did the occupy movement, and got involved with local election to oust the corruption.

You make really, really good friends like that... .  and many of them have a damn good head on their shoulders.

The thing is, you want to be really careful with making friends with dysfunctional people... .  like bar people or super religious fundamentalists.

[charred]

I appreciate all your replies, they are very thoughtful. I am still seeing a T, though for a little bit I was wondering why, as my original issue (stress over being torn between my exwife and my exBPDgf) was put to rest quickly.

My age alone doesn't bother me in dealing with this, but rather how fundamental the issue appears to be. From what I have read you learn your way of dealing with people in relationships from your most primary early ones, the one between you and your mother and then you and your father and how they get along... .  and that becomes with some small refinement your view of how to relate.

That is what is daunting, both of my parents have issues. My mom is so cold in some ways... told it before on here, but we had a cat growing up that died, and I was horrified to find it in the freezer frozen, she was nonchalant about it, was taking a biology class and was going to dissect it. To me that isn't normal. She has lots of animals and relates better to them than to people. Her choices of friends are usually people she feels are no threat of any type to her, and she has a lot of friends, but very few that are close to her... .  not sure any are or have ever been. My dad is a hateful jerk, NPD and best decision I made was getting him out of my life... .  I did 2 yrs before rest of family did same thing, so haven't had anything to do with him in 14 yrs now.

Guess part of what has me down is not noticing the pattern for so very long. I had a lot of my own friends in grade school, then we moved to a small town and I started 6th grade new, and was an outcast and picked on for a while, had a few close friends during Jr High and HS, but 2-3, when I had known everyone in the school and the small town in grade school... .  its like I have become more isolated from close relationships since then. My wife accepted me as I was, and we had child, but there was not a normal connection with my wife... we both knew it and I tried but there was always a little distance, and instead of being completely open, we would have small issues grow in to bigger ones and lead to resentment. I traveled almost every week, was home weekends and we grinned and bared it... .  though I missed out, she was forced to do everything with our kid and it was stressful for all of us.

The points about the BPD folks not ever facing their issues rings true. My exBPDgf... .  I really have been attached to and wanted to make things work. She gets past my distancing ... honestly because she doesn't respect boundaries. I wouldn't wish her problems on anyone. She made the comment that I had an attachment issue... .  and is trained in childhood development and kids with special needs, she chose teaching and those areas to work in... .  which I think were based on her needing help herself, much like many T's go in to it because they need therapy.

My hopes for T are not huge, I simply want to be able to be myself and relate to people, so I can make real friends and be in close relationships. I look back and see that most of what I did most of the time was evading friendship/closeness. I found diversions, work, travel, hobbies, school... and threw myself in to them. The thing is that I accomplished a lot, and never felt much enjoyment from doing it, rather a slight loss that it was done and I needed to move on to something else... .  and that whatever I imagined accomplishing the goal might do for me... .  it hadn't.

I have given a lot of thought to doing Habitat for Humanity work, I like working on houses and that seems like a good organization. Lot of times I end up doing nothing, waiting to find out what my schedule will be. I do contracts consulting and most the time am traveling every week, having my visitation with my daughter every other weekend, and scrambling to get all my stuff done on the remaining weekends... so classes, social clubs, and that kind of thing get put off. Would rather work local and have a normal life... have enough debt and obligations that I find taking a 50-60% pay cut to be unworkable, I still help out my exwife and daughter over and above what I am obligated to, as I do care. My step dad passed away a year ago, so I spend a lot of time trying to help my mom out as well, and keep meeting people around her... but its far away so those long distance relationships haven't fared well... .  the exBPDgf is in that area.

I travel alone just fine, and so long as I have plenty to look forward to, seem to be okay alone, but I really don't like being alone much at all, have always wanted to have a big family, lots of kids and relatives around... .  opposite of what I grew up with. My exwife was an only child and didn't want more than 2 kids and once we had one, we had enough issues between us to put off having another one till it just didn't happen... as it was I was 38 when my daughter was born, so kind of later in life.

I agree with the advice about being careful making friends with dysfunctional people, one of my friends in HS was a mess... .  I took a Dale Carnegie class and it said pick the person you least get along with and befriend him... .  BAD advice... he was clingly and drove everyone else away from me, till I finally had to break free of him... too much to describe, but repellent to most people. Have a guy that worked on my house that is OCD and decided to keep at a distance, after he started telling me the real reasons for area 51/Roswell and other non-normal things. I guess I should say I want normal relationships with normal people!

Thought an epiphany would point to something simple I was doing that kept people at a distance, and it would be a somewhat easy fix, like a posture/body language change or something, and now I am thinking that the chances of truly changing my attachment style, as deep rooted as it is, at this point are not good, and that instead of not needing T at all, that I don't know that I will have enough change to justify it over the long haul, as I think it could take forever. Almost makes me think I should reconcile with exwife, and go to T with her, find a local job, volunteer and adopt. <Suddenly doing that would be my dads way of doing something... .  he married second time after deciding it was a good idea, my sister had moved in to apartment with me, he came to live in it and bought a house, got a wife a few months later... .  was bizarre, lasted 6 mos, sister moved out on own, I went to a frat house, his second ex moved back out of state.>

I have a younger sister, but am the oldest sibling, my sister no doubt has issues, but they are different, she has 100's of friends and never knew a stranger. She is a nurse and worked in 3 of the big hospitals in her area and knows thousands of people. She introduced me to my exBPDgf in college, and a lot of other people... .  she is not inhibited or reserved or studious. According to her I am a bit of an uptight city guy and she is a relaxed country girl. She was always close to my mom, never moved away, shares her animal interests, has her own farm, etc.

Should have been working on these issues of mine 30 yrs ago... just dodging the pwBPD would have made such a huge difference, that set me back in so many ways, and then I destroyed my marriage over her. Never would have imagined at 50 I would be in this place, without close friends, or family, or community or steady employment... thankful for what I have, but its so not what I wanted.

[Whatwasthat]

My age alone doesn't bother me in dealing with this, but rather how fundamental the issue appears to be. From what I have read you learn your way of dealing with people in relationships from your most primary early ones, the one between you and your mother and then you and your father and how they get along... .  and that becomes with some small refinement your view of how to relate.

That is what is daunting, both of my parents have issues. ... .  

Guess part of what has me down is not noticing the pattern for so very long. ... .  

My hopes for T are not huge, I simply want to be able to be myself and relate to people, so I can make real friends and be in close relationships. I look back and see that most of what I did most of the time was evading friendship/closeness. ... .  seem to be okay alone, but I really don't like being alone much at all, have always wanted to have a big family, lots of kids and relatives around... .  

Thought an epiphany would point to something simple I was doing that kept people at a distance, and it would be a somewhat easy fix, like a posture/body language change or something, and now I am thinking that the chances of truly changing my attachment style, as deep rooted as it is, at this point are not good, and that instead of not needing T at all, that I don't know that I will have enough change to justify it over the long haul, as I think it could take forever. ... .  

Should have been working on these issues of mine 30 yrs ago... just dodging the pwBPD would have made such a huge difference, that set me back in so many ways, and then I destroyed my marriage over her. Never would have imagined at 50 I would be in this place, without close friends, or family, or community or steady employment... thankful for what I have, but its so not what I wanted.

But  I'd say again charred - I'm not surprised you're daunted - but that's because you seem to me to have already taken the first step to dealing with your issues. You've seen how big and deep-rooted they are.

If you were in denial you wouldn't feel daunted. And you'd also be much further from moving forward.

I don't underestimate how much work it takes to unravel the ways in which we relate to people - and I too have wished for 'quick fixes' - for some simple and mechanistic way of sorting all this out. But as in most things in life 'quick fixes' are usually an illusion.

But therapy was INVENTED to do just this daunting thing - to lead us back into our childhoods - to help us unpick our learned patterns of relating and to find ways to live life differently. Of course it takes a long time. What doesn't that's worthwhile? But I would maintain that just to be on that path - to be taking those steps forwards - however slow - will make something inside you relax and feel better. Because you'll know that you are heading in the right direction. And that's what matters. Much more than any kind of golden destination. None of us are ever going to be perfect. We'll be 'works in progress' until the day we die - and maybe even beyond that - who knows? But it's the direction of travel that matters.

As to reconciling with your wife. You might decide that that's the best thing to do. But - as you yourself have already said - doing it in a hurry would not be a great idea. BTW I don't think your idea of getting back together with her sounds anything like your father's sudden marriage. But again - this is something to explore in therapy.  And yes - after a while maybe the two of you would decide to go to some kind of T together.

Would you be able to go to T more than once a week do you think? It could help you feel like you were moving forwards more. And presumably you think your existing T is good? If they've helped you reach the point you're currently at then I would suggest they might be. Because really I think it's entirely admirable that you have the degree of honesty and clear sightedness that you do. Not many people have that - and I'd repeat that your distress at the size of the task ahead is one of the best indicators that you have what it takes to tackle this stuff - however tough it is.

And I can join in you in feeling strange about where  life has taken me - the last few years have been difficult and I'm left in a very uncertain stage that I never would have anticipated when I was younger.  It does take time to come to terms with this.

Wishing you well. WWT.

[charred]

WWT-

Thanks, it helps to think of it that way. I am doing T every other week, was going every week, but had hit a lull in anything to talk about, and the holidays came on and I agreed to every other week. I pay 100% out of pocket for it, make good money but have no benefits of any type, and back when I worked for a big company, they scrutinized every cent spent on any kind of medical thing, and no one I knew would use a mental health benefit out of fear of being fired for it. So I have been using cash and out of pocket and being pretty close lipped about the whole thing. For me it is hard to ask for help, and I feel awkward seeing a T, as I feel like I am complaining about something, when I have it better than many. I don't have a steady job but my contracts add up to a good income each year, no serious health problems, and I have people to talk with and even go out with, so I don't feel like I have anything critical to deal with... .  in fact the problems I have with intimacy were very slow developing.

My kid and exwife are doing well, even my mom who lost her husband last year is doing very well. It feels like I should just buck up and carry on.

That is what I have always done... .  so seeing a T is hard, he is enough like me to make it feel odd to talk to him about my problems. His view is that at the moment a good deal of my issues seem like the result of trauma and he can help with that, so we are going to see what that will do.

The idea that I am a nervous/avoidant person and have been from childhood... is crystal clear, and I think I am wanting to be relaxed/normal/secure... .  and doubt that is possible... .  can be a bit more relaxed, more normal, more secure. My second book on attachment is called "A general theory of love" and following on the other book... .  it is a bummer. It explains how are brains work and how we learn about love and why we respond to certain people and not others. Their is a section on Hebbian learning, which explains how neural networks learn things, basically that we have a template with minimal info in it, we fill in and refine our pattern matching and the pattern becomes what we respond to. So we see what a character looks like in writing longhand and we can soon read almost anyones handwriting, even though a computer would have a very hard time doing so. That is the good thing about how we learn.

The negative is that the book indicates that our most fundamental patterns of relating are put in place between 6 mos-2 yrs of age and become the basis for how we interact with people, how secure we feel, how willing to take on new things, how loving we are, and so forth. Also they pointed out that who you respond to is very deeply hard wired based on the same things. For years I had wondered whether I attracted normal girls and made them kind of nuts or attracted crazy girls who were acting normal and brought out their issues. The book makes a very strong case for me attracting disordered girls... .  and for the likelyhood of changing that fundamental set of pervasive patterns as being nearly none... .  a new different one can be introduced with some difficulty, but the kind of woman I respond to is not a healthy headed one, but rather someone like my pwBPD or my exwife who is a drama queen, but falls short of disordered.

I look at what I do for a living and I am a professional rescuer, it is what I do, and it keeps the drama going, diverting me from normal. I always took it as ADHD, that I needed some kind of excitement to keep me interested, now I am wondering whether I was just always hyper due to all the nasty emotions I was trying to detach from almost as long as I can remember. My exBPDgf said I needed to get in touch with my anger, that she had seen me act like Gandhi when faced with big problems, and had at times been of the impression that I was a hell of a guy to be able to forgive and turn the other cheek, and at times thought I was a chump for doing it. I took up martial arts for a long time, became very good at it, was always a big muscular football player looking guy, but found that while I gained a lot of confidence, it didn't change how I interact, I have never been in a physical fight due to anger. I am a skilled fighter, but it was fun/competition, not dealing with anger.

Anyway, I will continue seeing a T and see what I can do.

The attachment issues, resonate with me as true, so does the neural network explanation of attachment. I can see why what seemed like unconditional love from a manic person (exactly what a baby wants) would appeal so deeply to me, and be an unlikely thing at this point to get in any relationship with a person... .  kind of makes sense why my sister and mom go for animals, as they are good for unconditional love. I have avoided pets because of how much the thought of leaving one alone when I was traveling unsettled me, I felt like I couldn't do that to a poor defenseless animal. Projection no doubt from a lifetime of having been dealt with that way. Always thought people in T were just crybabies... .  now, I am one... .  and think I was right.

[recoil]

I've had my first therapy session addressing attachment issues.  Within a couple of minutes, the therapist "had my number".  She was able to describe my childhood perfectly. 

I'm 42. 

She is confident that with compliance to her methods, she can show me how to address my issues within six months to a year.  I'd say this is worth it for all of us, at any age.

I know I'm interesting in growing as a person.  I can't wait for my next session.

[Surnia]

I'm 42. 

She is confident that with compliance to her methods, she can show me how to address my issues within six months to a year.  I'd say this is worth it for all of us, at any age.

Being confident is very important for growth and changes!

[refuge]

Ditto on the avoid-ant attachment issue, I also experienced a sense of phobia when it came to learning about it. This is what makes me a magnet for the borderline and boarder line "ish"  girl. It was also what kept me from totally buying into  what seemed an irresistible free lunch ... .  I believe many in "our" situation are also ADD/ADHD, and I think it has a lot to do with how our nervous systems developed during those first 2 or 3 years... .  I would encourage anyone here to try something called 5-htp that supports serotonin , in addition to B6 and l-Lysine amino acid. They are safe and can be purchased just about anywhere... I can only describe the difference as being miraculous!

[charred]

I was getting depressed thinking about how deep rooted my issues seem to be. The books I have been reading helped understand it, and I even wonder if my ADHD would not exist if I were securely attached... as it seems to be an avoidant behavior symptom almost.

Still reading, and feeling a bit better, the latest book is giving me quite a bit of hope; ":)aring to Trust"... pretty good so far, dives in to trust/mistrust and how we act based on it... .  surprisingly ties in really well to understanding attachment for BPD and NPD people, based on trust. The part giving hope... lot of very specific things you can do to improve your trusting/trustworthiness. Hard painful stuff, but so is not doing it. Looks like it will take a good deal of time to make the changes. Very interesting read, as it points out how you can distrust yourself, and what that causes to happen and how to work on it, ends up being a good argument for mindfulness. (Even argues for it explicitly.) So, I am somewhat hopeful.

Now I think of my exBPDgf and think... she has the emotional maturity of a 3 yr old, and I was attracted to her most likely because she gave what I thought was unconditional love... .  like a mother is supposed to? So it is transference of mother-infant love... OMG... eeeww! That makes me want to go to T a lot... .  never tell anyone (despite my trust book saying to tell people), and hope really hard I got it wrong somewhere.

I always felt different a bit, and have attributed it to different things... shyness, ADHD, maybe asperger's... .  just detached from people a bit. This dead on fits the facts... and makes sense... been told many times that given my upbringing it is amazing I turned out so well. And I always thought, that really my work life was good, but was a bit of an uptight mess inside. Think I was pulled to adrenaline sports as they were so intense it made the residual stress seem like nothing.

Never heard of 5-htp, will look in to it. (Last thing someone suggested to me was using lots of Thyme,  I tried it in a hamburger and ... .  well it was like eating adobe mud, I now know why they used sesame seeds in big macs, and not Thyme. But other suggestions have worked out well.) Thanks for the suggestion.

[Rose Tiger]

It can be a bit messy, all the unraveling.  Be patient with yourself.  Our partners with BPD met a deep need for unconditional love that we didn't even know we were craving.  And then the betrayal rips off the scab that formed years ago.  We can't change the past but we can be the ones giving ourselves that kind of love now. Having a good counselor is really helpful, too.

[charred]

I have been medicated since 7 largely for my lack of patience... .  but I appreciate the advice.

[Rose Tiger]

That's ok, it can be somewhat overwhelming.  Give yourself all the leeway you need.  This is a pretty huge breakthrough for you.  Good work.

[Zeke]

Charred, I so relate to your posts. I too am 50, and my mother is the cold type. She was overly harsh in her discipline of my sister and I when we were growing up. She made us cut our own switches for her to administer our spankings. She humiliated us by making us drop our pants so that she could spank our bare bottoms with the switch. My dad was the nicest, most amazing man you could ever hope to meet. Most of my friends growing up feared their dad; not me, I feared my mom.

I rarely dated in high school or college. I was plenty good looking, but I was shy. I longed for a girlfriend, but I didn't have the self-confidence I needed. I didn't know how to act around women; my gut would turn into knots around girls I was attracted to. The stress of the situation was greater than my need for the girl. I eventually went to law school, and I didn't have a single date during the 3 years of law school. Upon graduation, however, I met a beautiful girl who, somehow, put me at ease when I was around her. I fell in love. We got married, had 2 children, and our marriage lasted 18 years. Turns out she had BPD and made my life a living hell. Looking back now, I have no doubt that she saw me as an easy mark. I think people who grow up with avoidant attachment issues are like wildebeasts to BPD's who are like tigers. I've done a lot of research and reading, trying to figure out the root of my problems. Your info on avoidant attachment issues was enlightening, and I no doubt suffer from that. But in addition to that, I suffer from being a "shamed child." Google that and the research will depress you. So I have a dou le dose to overcome I guess.

Anyway, now I'm 50. My beloved dad died in September. So I'm left with my mom who I love and who is there for me if I need financial assistance, etc. But she's not there for hugs and warm embraces. She needs a hug after taking care of my dad 24/7 for almost a year, and I want to hug her, but something holds me back. I almost recoil at the thought. It makes me shiver. I still remember her making me cut her a switch to lash across my bare bottom when I was 7 years old. And how could she be so loving and tender to my dad during his illness (for which I'll be eternally thankful) and yet be so cold and distant towards me?

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'm with you when you say the task of unraveling the deep-seated scars of childhood is daunting. It appears impossible to me at this point quite frankly. I sometimes wonder if I'd be better off if I didn't have the "benefit" of all the book-reading I've done on the subjects of "shaming children" and BPD. The old ignorance is bliss thing , you know? I mean, just a few short years ago, I thought I was "normal."

Anyway, I intend to keep on keeping on, and I know you will do the same. Good luck to you my friend. Who knows, maybe one day before long we will have that breakthrough moment we are looking for. Let me know if you happen onto something that helps. I will do the same for you.

Stay strong in 2013,

Zeke

[charred]

Zeke-

Thanks, part of the difficulty is I always thought I was fine, and had more than a little bit of macho/ego.

I was shy and had a hard time talking to girls but was a football player and athlete and managed to have girlfriends most the time. I just thought in college I had met "The One" and made it almost all the way through school before she dumped me abruptly... .  had it been earlier I doubt I would have finished school. Way of dealing with timidity has always been to pick a task and go do it, so am more of a workaholic the worse things are going. After many years of that I am in a nice house, have money in the bank and lots of boy toys... but don't do things by myself and have few friends anymore and feel like I am starting life over at 50. Marriage had issues, but they were smaller than what I am up against now. Trying to get back with my dream girl turned in to a nightmare and I have been forced to reconsider how "just fine" I am.

Not sure I want to google "shamed child" ... keep finding depressing things out, as they are issues I let slide... .  all my life, instead of confronting and dealing with them. I think avoidant attachment(me) is a wildebeast... to my pwBPD crockodile... and I have lost a few pounds of flesh once again for it.

My mom lost her husband (my step-dad) early last year, and needed me... .  was first time I spent much time around her since I was 13yo. I was able to help her (my step-brother... hate that he is... ) was contesting that she was even married to him (28yrs together)... and was scaring her, he had a pro-tem judge for the lawyer and was executor of the estate... I have been dealing with lawyers for years, found a frat brother turned lawyer in her town, showed him everything and asked who would beat the step-brother's lawyer... met with him, and it took just 3 hrs of legal fees... to turn things around and get the estate settled, took a few weeks is all. That is unprecedented and amazing for a legal result. My mother... btched about it costing so much. Reminded me of why I avoided her for 35yrs or so.

Anyway, I think I have had a nervous edge since infancy and it came from my folks... haven't been around my dad in 13 yrs, and I guess its time to deal with it all. Its daunting. The book that gave me some hope is ":)aring to Trust" ... it explains trust, early attachment, trust/attachment issues, and how you can learn to trust yourself, reality, and eventually other people, what to do when you are non-trusting/nervous and even explains how trust/attachment issues lead to NPD/BPD... and by the explanation in the book... .  I am on my way towards NPD... just haven't turned the bend like my nasty father. The approach to most of the changes is mindfulness, and I don't know that much about mindfulness, other than it seems like common sense, and it destressed me more than any drug ever did, so worth reading. It looks like what I need to do, haven't done it yet, and it is advice that sounds good/simple, but actually doing it will be hard effort... .  like dieting... and realizing you are 600 lbs overweight... .  all at the same time.

[Zeke]

Charred,

Thanks for the book reference. I'll check it out. I've not read much on mindfulness per se, but I did get some help from reading "The Power of Now." it teaches the importance of living in the moment which I think basically equates to mindfulness. I found it very helpful for awhile, but I eventually reverted to my former self. I guess that's on me, and I must work harder at it.

I have been fortunate enough to build a comfortable life for myself. Nice house, good job, wonderful children, etc. I have much to be thankful for, and I am very thankful. Many have it far worse than me, and I am in a way ashamed that I am not happier. The only thing holding me back is me. I have lots of friends. Lots of opportunities for socializing. And I am so glad to be free from the roller coaster life that I had with my BPDx.

In the 2 years since my divorce, I've had lots of fun; lots of women. I'm in a relationship now with a woman who loves me dearly, and I think I love her too. Thing is, I'm afraid to commit to her (avoidant attachment ?) I'm also afraid that if I don't commit to her I will lose her and that I will regret it 'til my dying day. I feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Bottom line is I don't trust myself anymore.

Oh well, just rambling now. Peace, out.

[charred]

I read "Power of Now"... .  after reading "A New Earth"... think the earth one is better, but they are kind of redundant.

I am not qualified to guess even at why you would be afraid to commit... however, I am finding that behind everything like that, is a trust issue, and in my personal experience... the other person was fairly trustworthy... I was much less so. Ego would have me argue otherwise, but truthfully, I kept a wall up to keep people away, but it was a form of being untrustworthy, and it had an effect, it made me not trust them... but both my exwife and exBPDgf... .  were pretty trustworthy when dealt with directly, however my exBPDgf... you had to agree with her 100% on everything or the you know what hit the fan.

Daring to trust ... finished it, very good. Rereading parts of it. Tonight saw some show on TV (Fix Our Family)... got to me, first time in years was willing to relax and accept that I still harbor hard feelings from my folks splitting... geez that was 38 yrs ago... makes me feel like an emotional wimp... .  been stoic till now... just now seeing that was a mistake.

Not ready to choose which gal out of the 4 currently interested to pursue... .  need to work on my issues, hope it doesn't take forever.

[HardTruth]

When I first went to a T 8 years ago, I cried at every session.  It was horrifying.  I was so ashamed.  I'm half asian and taught that showing that kind of weakness was shameful.  Plus, it was dangerous, because whenever my sister knew of my vulnerabilities, she'd use them against me and it could be really hurtful.  I was taught that in order to be a good person, you should always "buck up" and put on a cheerful face. 

Somewhere in all that, you lose yourself.  You judge yourself for your emotions - I don't want to be a cry baby, look at all the people who are worse off - I have no right to whine... .  

All this time, you are telling yourself stories - other people's stories.  It's hard to figure out your own story and LEARN TO TRUST YOURSELF if you can't be authentic with your own self without judgement. 

I think that it is really important to give some time for yourself to be truly authentic and vulnerable.  If that means "whining" and crying, or whatever, it is SO SO SO helpful to do this.  The baby and infant in you wants this!  He was deeply hurt when you were little, and perhaps hasn't been completely heard and validated, and thus comforted.

Life is about give and take.  Giving and receiving.  Without this, things get stuck. You don't feel good.  The more I have fully engaged in this, the less depressed and better I have felt.  I was taught I shouldn't ask for things (especially from men), and if things were offered, I might turn them down for fear of being "obligated", or that accepting would show that I was weak or needed help. 

So I think asking to be heard, loved, hugged, comforted is not something that some of us are perhaps comfortable with, but I think if it's not, it's helpful to change that up!

[HardTruth]

When I was a freshman in college I took Intro to Psych, and I remember learning about all of these studies that were done.  One famous one was done with chimps, which were raised in isolation and observed to see if they would choose a cloth mother that was warm, or a metal mother that had milk.  They chose the cloth mother, which was taken to mean that chimps, and thus perhaps humans, would chose love over survival.

This study really bothered me.  How could anyone do that to chimps? It made me SO sad, and just reading about it bothered me tremendously.

Anyway, fast forward 25 years later, I woke up one day and thought, OMG! I'm that chimp!  I looked up the study to see whatever happened to those chimps.  When the chimps were put back with other chimps, they didn't know how to act. They couldn't make friends or have normal social interactions.  They became isolated from the other chimps, either from their own doing or perhaps because they were rejected.  When they got pregnant and had their own baby, they either attacked and sometimes killed it, or completely ignored it.

So devastating.  Growing up so lonely and alone, but then when gifted with others, you can't enjoy them or give and take love and affection from them, which you've yearned for your whole life... .  

I felt like I was that chimp, growing up emotionally and physically isolated in some ways, still clinging for the cloth mother.  She's warm and soft, but when I cry to her, she doesn't respond.  When I need her, she can't comfort me.  I accept and enjoy her warmth on HER terms.  It was like all of my past relationships with men... .    I can't be with the normal chimps, I just go curl up with the empty one.

[HardTruth]

I used to feel sort of ashamed of myself because I could tell that I wasn't like other people, that there was something wrong with me.  I looked OK on the outside, had friends, did well in school, but I knew something was off on the inside.

Revisiting that study, and reading about childhood abandonment and neglect, and it's effects made me suddenly realize, I'm NORMAL! Yay!  Normal for what I had been through.  Really, it made me feel so much better.

I definitely believe that all kinds of therapy helps.  I, personally, like multi-therapy.  I like meditation, pranayama, reading books, bodywork, seeing my T, kirtan, writing in my journal.

My experience with "mindfulness" is that it's easy to understand the concept intellectually, but much harder to actually put it into practice.  So, for example, even a simple breathing meditation where you sit still and as thoughts enter your mind, you just let them go... .  I remember when I first tried doing this years ago, 5-10 minutes seemed like torture.  Now it's gotten better.  And plays out in my life by reducing my knee-jerk reactions to triggers.  But I think mindfulness is all in the practice - whatever amount of time and intention you put into it - that's what you'll get out of it.  Reading about it is great, but does not have as deep effect as actually practicing it on a regular basis, in my opinion.

I do feel it is a cornerstone of what has helped me to make my life and relationships better.

Another one is making a commitment to telling the truth.  Rather than what I grew up doing, which was to offer white lies for various social situations.  The more I improved my ability to tell the truth, even in stressful situations, the more I can sense if someone else isn't telling the truth, or if they're telling me a story.  It helps me to trust in myself more.

[charred]

HardTruth-

I read three books recently that really hit me hard. First was "Becoming Attached- First relationships and how they shape our capacity to love." It is a softback college text style book that explained the monkey experiments, as well as a whole bunch of studies with infants and kids... same conclusion you had, "that is what happened to me." Its very good once you get past the college style (critics... negatives, lots of references... so 75% filler.)  So once I had it in mind that I seemed to have an avoidant/fearful attachment style, I read the second book; "A general theory of love", small book, packed with an explanation of how the brain works, the three types of brain structures and how mammals use limbic brain... then a section on how attachment works with our brains... fascinating stuff, and my conclusion... going to be real hard to change attachment style later in life, its fundamental to everything... so bit of a bummer... however it explained why you respond strongly to your type of person and not at all to others... which in my case has been disordered women... also not encouraging for change.  The final of the three books, recently is ":)aring to Trust" which is excellent, if I only were getting one, it would be the one. Gave me some hope of changing things after all, as it explains the role of trust in all relationships, how we learn about it in early attachment, what happens when we don't get it, how communications issues always come down to trust issues, ego vs trust, and how to make yourself trustworthy and learn to trust... largely through mindfulness. It gave me some hope... but the simple sounding exercises are emotionally pretty hard to do. Think all three books could be redone in to one, as they are on same topic but cover it differently.

White lies... thats what my family ran on. NPD dad had as many as 5 girlfriends at a time, can remember school nights having to drive around and wait for him to "be done" so I could come home... it getting late and just waiting. Then needing to act like nothing was wrong... lots of stuff like that always. We moved from all my friends, new school, some bullying, no friends and then my folks divorcing... and they were uptight/upset we had to act like nothing was wrong... the friends I eventually made at school didn't know my parents separated or divorced for a long time. Just smile and carry on long everything was fine.

My sister and mom have had animals forever, and I think it is for the unconditional love they give, without requiring you to talk/reason/be honest with them. I haven't had any since I moved away from my mom at 14, because I couldn't be sure I could take care of them responsibly... we went on a vacation when I was 7 and put our dog in a kennel, the vacation extended to 2 weeks, came back and our dog was dead, it refused to eat, and had pined away from sadness... and still it upsets me to think about it being abandoned and lonely. I could never leave an animal for a week or more knowing it could break its heart and kill it, and I think it is just really too close to how I felt... being ignored and detached from the family. Once I was about 6 we moved in to a new bigger house, and it had a finished basement with one bedroom, which I was given... so parents, sister were together, upstairs and I was in the basement... it was meant to be nice... but it felt like isolation then. My mom's mother died early, mother was cold distant. We moved about time I was in junior high, folks separated, then as I started HS they divorced, I started driving and moved in with my dad... who didn't live in his home, but rather with his girlfriend, so very young I was on my own once again, and white lies about "us" living together. Didn't have anything to do with my mom for 35 yrs after that. All adds up to being isolated like a monkey, similar issues.

So now I should look for something on how to fix a broken monkey I suppose.

The mindfulness stuff makes sense and reminds me of a diet, if you can always do the right thing it would become habit and solve all kinds of problems. Just like if you only eat what is on your healthy diet you get thin/healthy... .  much easier to say than do.

[Rose Tiger]

I can't imagine losing a pet like that at the age of 7.  The guilt and sadness must of been overwhelming, that is hard for a little kid.

I remember when I discovered it wasn't the whole world that was off, that I might actually have issues to address.  I was reading Getting the Love You Want, a wacky title for a really excellent book.  That started the journey that I had some things to work on.  It's not that everyone else is normal, everyone has issues, don't feel you are unique. 

This link is helpful.  It easy to intellectualize problems.  The real work is the heart work, the emotions and unburying feelings.

www.pete-walker.com/managingAbandonDepression.htm

[HardTruth]

Charred - we might have had better luck if we'd been raised by wolves!   They are pack animals, take good care of their young, like to cuddle and be close to each other, are playful, and I believe the adults mate for life.

I am so so sorry about your dog.  That is truly heartbreaking.  When I was young, I was scared and suspicious of people, but always loved and trusted my pets.  The pets were the only place I got touch in my life once I grew up from being an infant to a child.

I requested both the Becoming Attached and Daring To Trust books from the library.  Thanks for the recommendations!

Rose Tiger - thanks for the link!  I've read come of Pete Walker's stuff, and really like what he has to say.

[Zeke]

HardTruth, thanks for your post. I had never heard of the monkey trials before. That is very interesting. I also appreciate your tip on making it a point to tell the truth at all times, i.e., no white lies. That makes sense to me as a way to build trust with one's self.

Charred- Thanks again for the book recommendations. I'm going to start with Daring to Trust and then go from there.

Rose Tiger- Thank you too for the link. I've not had a chance to check it out yet, but I will.

This is a great place. It really helps just to bounce things off of others who have been in the same or similar situations. I'm really hoping to take it one step further this time though... .  and actually try to put some of this stuff into practice on a sustained basis. Good luck to all of you.

Zeke

[recoil]

That's one thing I regret right now with our second attempt... .  I told a lot of white lies about how I felt the second time around to keep the peace.

During the first run, I was more vocal.  But I think she wore me down with her crying after every time I spoke up about something I didn't like.

[charred]

Losing that dog was my first death I had to deal with, it hurt.

The bad one was later, we moved and had a great dane as a family pet. I moved out when my folks divorced, to live with my dad (thought he lived in apartment, he lived with girlfriend, so I ended up in the apartment.) and then hadn't been around my mom much for about 4 yrs, (she was pissed I moved out) so she called and invited me out, and once I showed up a vet was there, she said she thought I might want to say goodbye, as our pet dog had hip dysplasia and was being put down.

To me it was being invited over to see my dog killed... .  I didn't have anything to do with my mom for quite a while after that, maybe 10 yrs. Was about 17 when it happened. That is the one that really sucked... may have needed to be put down, no doubt he was in pain, but... you don't have someone out to your place for years, then when you do you don't even hint about why? Sucked big time. Still think of it when my mom wants me to come "for no reason"... .  this stuff doesn't get an emotional response from me anymore its deadened the nerves, but for a long time, really bugged me.

From 17-27... went to college, had jobs, started a business, fell in love with my exBPDgf, had falling out, moved to coast, moved back to midwest 4 hrs from folks... and moved in with gal that was later to be my wife... all with mother 100% out of picture. Pretty sure in hindsight that is some kind of attachment issue.

[Zeke]

From 17-27... went to college, had jobs, started a business, fell in love with my exBPDgf, had falling out, moved to coast, moved back to midwest 4 hrs from folks... and moved in with gal that was later to be my wife... all with mother 100% out of picture. Pretty sure in hindsight that is some kind of attachment issue.

Maybe an attachment issue, maybe not. I'm not qualified to say, but it could be that you were just rightfully pissed at your mom for the stunt she pulled with the vet and the dog. I would have had an extremely negative reaction to that too. Fool me once... .