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Author Topic: Diversion of Emotions - An Observation  (Read 610 times)
CodependentHusband
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« on: January 14, 2013, 12:35:19 PM »

Interesting observation the other night. I'll have to provide a little background here for this to make any sense: I have a part-time job/gig/hobby that has me going to a pub for an evening a few times a month (hosting a trivia event). When I first got married, I stopped because it seemed to trigger her so much. She's always welcome to come, but only rarely expresses even a small desire to go. When we first got married, her parinoia/fear about me talking to other women at the pub was such that it was not worth it to me. After several occassions where she accused me of having an affair and raged, I decided that it was simply just too triggering for her, so, I quit. That was a couple of years ago.

About 8 months ago, one of the trivia hosts asked me to fill in for him due to a scheduling conflict. I discussed it with dBPDw, and she seemed fine with it... .  in fact, she encoubraged me to go, which was nice. So, I agreed to help him out of a bind. So, after that, it sort of evolved back into me hosting this trivia contest at the pub a few evenings out of the month. This is a fun activity for me that involves several of my passions (history, film, art, and music, etc). It also amounts to several hundred dollars of essentially disposable income for us each month, which is nice too. Since dBPDw doesn't typically want to go (it's a 30 minute drive both ways, and the event lasts about 3 hours on top of that), it's something that she's not very involved with by her choice. I typically send her a text or email with all of the questions, and she seems to be entertained by this, and I think it also makes her feel like I'm not actively trying to exclude her from my hobby.

Over time, she seems to feel more secure about this paying hobby of mine, but the other night she sent me a short email that just said something like, "Wow. you are asking some hard trivia questions tonight! Have fun, and be careful please. Love you. NO WOMEN!" Having received the email right around the time that I was setting up for the night's event, which can get a bit involved, with setting up a PA, microphones, and several television sets, etc... .  I replied with something along the lines of, "Well, I hope my questions aren't too hard. Love you too."

About an hour later, I've got everything setup and ready to go at the pub... .  check my email, and she's emailed me again, saying, "Really? That is all you have to say? You're not going to tell me that I don't have anything to worry about?" I replied to the email (no time to call, as I was talking to the owner... .  the crowd was unusually thin): "You know you don;t have to worry, babe."

So, as it turns out, since there were so few people there, the owner of the pub decided that he couldn't afford to do trivia that night... .  too much expense going out to pay me, and pay for all of the normal prizes. We've only cancelled the event like 3 times in 4 years due to poor attendance, so, this is pretty rare, but we did it. The owner asked me to announce a round a free drinks for the disappointed patrons that were there, and I packed up to leave. I was disappointed... .  I had spent several hours preparing my questions, driven 30 minutes to get there, set all of the equipment up, taken it down to pack up and leave for home... .  all without being paid a dime. Honestly, I'm pretty laid back, but I was a bit upset for a little while... .  maybe a 3 on a 10 point scale of anger. When I got in the car to go home, I called my dBPDw. She answered the phone with a bit of an aggressive tone... .  typical when she is starting to get dysregulated. I figured that I'd come home to her being passive aggressive to me the whole evening and that I would probably be spending time in another part of the house... .  which is fine. I was okay with that. So, when I told her that we had cancelled the event and I was on the way home. I told her that I was kind of irritated because of all of the trouble I had gone through and to have it cancelled kind of made me mad, even though it's not anyone's fault. She said, "wow! You sound mad." I said, "I am... .  you know, I've worked my butt off, and basically for nothing!"

This is where it gets interesting, at least for me... .  She said, "Well, I'm glad to hear you get mad. You don't do that very often." I said, "Okay. Well, I should be in a better mood by the time I get home. I'm going to go now." She said, "Okay." I could tell by the time I got home, she would be okay, instead of the acting out I expected, which is exactly what happened. We watched a couple of movies and had a great time that night.

It seems that by me expressing a strong emotion about something, and not directed at her at all, seemed to defuse the situation. I've never really noticed this before, and, I'm even wondering if I could use this as some kind of tool to help make thing better in the future... .  I don't know. I think that she might have been feeling insecure because we haven't been intimate in about 2 weeks (I let her control that 100%, as I no longer initiate so much as holding hands anymore... .  her reactions are too unpredictable to even the slightest initiation of affection from me). What is it that made her react that way? Maybe she realized I was so busy having my mind on the event, and being a bit angry about it that she realized I had no time to even think of another woman, or is there something else at play? Let me know your thoughts on this.


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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:39:21 PM »

She must be relieved that she is not the only irritation in your life
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 01:12:07 PM »



Its an advanced validation skill called matching voice tone (Valerie Porr). I like to think of it as matching emotional intensity.

PwBPD interpret neutral faces as threatening. The calmer you become the more angry they get. Your lack of response makes them feel out of control, like you don't care. They don't read ours fear and withdrawal as protective, they see it as a negative judgment against them. We shut down emotional causing them to crank up emotionally. They feel alone and misunderstood when we are calm and acting all cool. Imagine, you come home after being in a car accident, all upset and scared and your partner is cool and dismissive "ho hum". How would that make you feel?

Matching voice tone shows you get them. That you understand why they are upset. Us showing emotions validates them. Matching tone and intensity shows you care about how they feel. It connects you.

Stay one degree higher or lower than them. If they have a low sad tone, drop your voice too. If they are scared, raise your voice to join them in their intensity. If they are mad and yelling, join them in intensity as you tell them you are taking a time out  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Matching voice and intensity is a great tool when used at the right time.
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 01:21:16 PM »

Wow, that was really interesting, UFN! I hadn't heard about that before.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 02:04:40 PM »

Elemental, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)! You might be on to something!

UFN, Ahhh... .  Yes. Now that you mention it, I remember reading about this in her book. I actually tried this a few times many months ago, with kind of mixed results. This one is a little tough to master. I think it surprised me because I wasn't trying to do anything, but noticed such a dramatic turnaround in my wife's mood. Maybe it was a case where even BPD logic couldn't turn my irritation into anything that was her fault. It was also interesting that when I got home, she expressed empathy for me... .  Insisting that I have a drink and try to relax. She tried to comfort me in an emotional way... .  I know that's actually kind of common, when there is a negative influence from outside the r/s that the pwBPD can 'latch into.'

So, I learned something... .  Not sure what I'm going to do with it just yet, but I love that feeling of enlightenment.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 06:38:58 PM »

Well I was only half kidding.

When either one of you are being the problem for the other, it sets you possibly against each other.

When there is an outside problem you can both hate on it. Bonding experience.

And I think BPD feel very stigmatized. So not being the problem would be a relief... you know she can tell how you feel...
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TeaAmongRoses
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 07:14:01 PM »

What does PwBPD stand for? This 'technique' is something I've found to be effective for helping my hubby be attentive to me emotionally. He definitely hates it when I'm calm so when I 'get upset' when he's upset he calms down. I didn't know there was a theory behind the method. I just discovered it by trial and error. Nice post! Very informative! My hubby is not abusive but he does have emotional problems. My ex was definitely NPD or BPD but abusive too.

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CodependentHusband
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 08:15:53 PM »

Well I was only half kidding.

When either one of you are being the problem for the other, it sets you possibly against each other.

When there is an outside problem you can both hate on it. Bonding experience.

And I think BPD feel very stigmatized. So not being the problem would be a relief... you know she can tell how you feel...

Oh, yeah! I agree, and I see what you mean now. I was thinking of a similar concept, but didn't think of it working quite like that. I think you are right on the mark with all of this. If I have a bad day at work, she seems to bond with me a little by blaming things on my boss... .  similar kind of concept. I thought of another thing too, that seems a little related. I think my pwBPD likes to feel needed... .  I see this when my father in law or mother in law gets sick and my wife gets to 'rescue her' as well.

They do seem to know how we feel too... .  I've noticed that too... .  sometimes before the non even does... .  creepy in a way, but the power we seem to have sometimes by understanding them is a little creepy in a way too, I guess.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 08:22:36 PM »

What does PwBPD stand for? This 'technique' is something I've found to be effective for helping my hubby be attentive to me emotionally. He definitely hates it when I'm calm so when I 'get upset' when he's upset he calms down. I didn't know there was a theory behind the method. I just discovered it by trial and error. Nice post! Very informative! My hubby is not abusive but he does have emotional problems. My ex was definitely NPD or BPD but abusive too.

pwBPD = person with BPD

I tried this as a 'tool' for a while, and I think the logic behind it being used as a tool is sound. For me though, it has been tough to apply in a practical way. Can you tell me a little more about how you use it with your husband?

When you say 'abusive,' do you mean physical abuse, or emotional abuse? My wife can be very emotionally abusive, and has the potential for physical abuse as well, but I've protected my boundaries much more over the past year, so, the physical side I don't see very often. She weights barely more than half of what I weight anyway, so, I've not really been all that scared, even in the heat of the moment, save for one time when I dashed behind a door to keep from getting hit in the head with a metal and glass picture frame... .  didn;t know I could move that fast for a guy in his 40's. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I don't think it is a laughing matter, really, but at the same time, I don't want to blow it out of proportion either.
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 08:27:27 PM »

First, I think UFN was spot on about the emotional tenor read off of us nons.  There are multiple studies that show pwBPD read neutral faces as angry.  Then again, when "normal" usually means getting some sort of abuse for 18+ years, it makes sense.  I know that seems odd to us, but that's their experience.

Two, I know I'm not good at matching tenor.  For one, my wife tends to be a bit passive-aggressive more than aggressive, so it's hard to pick up the right tone.  Also, I rarely get angry just in general, so my emotions (and therefore face) are neutral at all times.  There are very few things that set me off (e.g. Jon Stewart, the Daily Show host is banned from my house due to my, um, strong distaste for him), but 99% of the time, I maintain an easy-going, relaxed demeanor.  I know when I truly get upset, my wife seems to calm down and relax.  The problem is that it happens maybe once a season for me for 5 minutes.  Ah well. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 06:24:44 AM »

Well I was only half kidding.

When either one of you are being the problem for the other, it sets you possibly against each other.

When there is an outside problem you can both hate on it. Bonding experience.

There is something here.  I know when my wife feels wronged, and wants to play a victim (with lots of drama), she gets really really upset if I don't take on the same sense of her being wronged.  I can validate, but she wants validation to the same level of emotion that she is experiencing (and part way is no good).  The reality is that I rarely feel the same way, because her reactions are so extreme.  So she never feels supported by me.

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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »

pwBPD = person with BPD

Can you tell me a little more about how you use it with your husband?

When you say 'abusive,' do you mean physical abuse, or emotional abuse?

1- thanks! I was freaking out last night when I was reading this worried that my husband is BPD since your description of your interaction with your BPDwife sounded so similar. Blanked on the acronym as my mind started stressing.

2 - sure. Happy to tell you more. Basically, when I see he is upset and he is getting aggressive (meaning how I interpret defensiveness, attacking kinds of communication), I come back at him strong/emotionally heated. I don't like "getting upset" and therefore it is a bit more of an act on my part to get him to calm down a bit. It seems he retreats some when I match his intensity. Expecially if I'm upset about something besides about him - like "don't you see I've been working really hard on X, Y, Z and now I'm super frustrated because, A, B, C". Instead of just "dealing" with whatever effort/frustration I'm having inside my own head, I explain it to him demonstrating my frustration. He seems to then come around to instead of fighting me on something, to being supportive. I shout a bit in order to help go to his level, rather than trying to get him to "calm down" to meet me at my level. It works okay except when we are out in public or have company or on vacation with others or something and then I feel like we're making a scene. I also don't like to model that kind of communication in front of our kids but it is better than having him a live wire after me all the time. It "works" even though it isn't ideal communication that I'd prefer.

3 - I mean verbal abuse.  A few times he escalated to using physical intimidation but not much and he never put his hands on me or threw anything at me or anything like that. It was more "criticism" than anything. Harsh criticism.
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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 11:28:49 AM »

hmm... .  That's really interesting... .  I'm going to think about this some more. Something that might just work in my r/s as well.
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TeaAmongRoses
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 11:43:06 AM »

Like I said, my husband isn't borderline. He is emotionally immature, has attachment fears (fears of me leaving him) and gets pretty defensive at hits of slights. However, I attribute that to his ghetto upbringing and personality disordered envirnoment. He really has an abusive FOO with many members who seem to be BPD (sister & mom, at least). So he never learned a more 'civilized' way of communicating. Plus he was married, before me, for 21 years to a BPD woman who is just awful so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have a lot of fleas. He is accustomed to a lot of passive agression (really only aggressive or passive aggressive! never assertive or 'plain speak' as we call it in our household) and so he takes stuff I say 'wrong' regularly. I'm being direct and he thinks I'm being passive aggressive. So I can't say it would work with someone who is BPD. However, it works better for me than just trying to be relaxed and getting him to relax. I find I have to shout a bit to get him to hear me.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 03:40:00 PM »

TeaAmonRoses

I fear i may be misunderstanding what you are doing.

Shouting and getting aggressive to get someone to calm down seems like intimidation. It uses fear and power over to stop them.

Challenging someone who feels shame and fears losing people may work to control them momentarily. It isn't a healthy option for a relationship, since it uses "control over" to shift the balance of power in unhealthy ways. Our goal isn't to be louder, meaner, more intense as a way to get them to back down and listen to us. Our goal is to help them see that we are connecting "with" them.

Be a partner based on respect and caring.

Stand beside them - not over them... .  

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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2013, 04:33:43 PM »

For what I understand, TeaAmongRoses means to visibly show how frustrated you are at the situation than with them.  Still, I could see how without proper planning and restraint, that can go to flat out control in a hurry.  The thing is, being angry and manipulative can work.  Check out this post I put up a couple of months ago for an example of how anger and manipulation can work to control things.  It's far from healthy, but it's very real and honest.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 10:23:20 AM »

TeaAmonRoses

I fear i may be misunderstanding what you are doing.

Shouting and getting aggressive to get someone to calm down seems like intimidation. It uses fear and power over to stop them.

Oh, I think I learned to walk the line between what is manipulative and effective a while back with him. For example, when I found that he was very afraid of losing me, I thought "I could really use that knowledge to get him to do what I want". I assessed it and agreed to myself I wouldn't use that kind of leverage. I don't believe in getting one's desired results at all costs. HOWEVER, when he can't seem to hear me when I speak rationally and calmly, but he DOES hear me when I shout, I think "well, I guess I need to shout to get heard." In the past, as we were getting to know each other, he expressed how hurtful it was when I "yelled". He grew up in LOTS of chaos and is "very responsive" to that. So I stopped 'yelling'. All the talking rationally and lovingly just wasn't working though. We weren't communicating because I wasn't meeting him on his level. He NEVER heard me when I was calm. So I learned that we much more quickly could resolve things when I'd shout. He wouldn't back down all the way, but instead come down all the way where the conversation was squelched and I just got my way. Instead he would come down to a level where he could identify his feelings and we could discuss them.  I agree power over isn't ideal, but when someone really has their thoughts and feelings completlely detached from one another, connecting emotionally first, so that then I could validate his feelings, so then we could get through to talking about thoughts would work. I don't know if it is textbook - because this is just something I've learned trial and error. It is funny because we both come from relationships where there was a good deal of abuse - we were each the victim in past relationships. So we "agreed" early on not to use "leverage" on each other! We agreed that wasn't playing fair and that wasn't the way we wanted to build OUR relationship. We both know techniques we could use for power over each other, but we check each other not to do that if it seems like either one of us is. It is far from perfect, but seems to be working without a lot of damage to either of us. We do get exhausted from the relationship from time to time but we also value it and each eother enought to try andt lak things through. Does that help you undertand our dynamic?
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