Theory on extinction bursts. Need feedback.

[AllyCat7]

Hi Everyone!

As some of you may know, I'm sort of in the minority on these boards, as I've been dealing with a dif type of borderline than a lot of you. I have an ex who was the more typical "rager"/exteranlizer type. But over the last two years, I've been on/off again with another guy, who is borderline, but the "quiet"/internalizer type. With these types, passive aggression, silent treatment, and distancing are their behavior patterns.

As I was reading about extinction bursts in the lessons and also in everyone's posts, I couldn't relate so much since I'm dealing with a quiet borderline and most of the posts were about externalizers. But I think I may have made a connection in how my guy exhibits extinction bursts compared to the norm.

So in the past, when I would make demands on him, he would hear me (or read my super-long emails about it ) and then he would shut down. He would dysregulate by getting quiet, ignoring me for a while, adding new pictures to his facebook, whatever he could to create distance basically. He also talks to other girls during this time (which is not cool). But then he will eventually come back around to me and try to meet whatever need/demand I had stated before he dysregulated.

Last summer I made some demands on him and he did this, then in the fall I got lax with him because I was busy with stuff and was focusing on myself, but then in the winter I stated some more of my needs. And he has been dysregulating like crazy this time. The latest one I sent him a long email two nights ago sort of accusing him of talking to other girls (not in a mean way, though), letting him know that I still love him, but I won't be put in a state of limbo anymore. We are either officially together or we're just friends--no in between. He responded by deleting me from his Facebook that night (without replying to the email of course). And then last night, he posted a few pics to one of his public albums on FB (he knows I hate when he posts public pics so he was clearly doing it to piss me off and create distance), and then tonight he updated his profile picture and made it public (another thing he knows I don't like). I haven't reacted at all to anything. Not one peep. I don't know if he's expecting me to or not. I suspect he may have been, which is why he keeps doing more stuff to piss me off. I know it's better that I don't react or play the same games, though, because when he does come back there are no hard feelings on his end.

Anyway, it seems like this dysregulating and distancing that he does after I state my needs to him are a quiet borderline's way of displaying extinction bursts? Instead of getting super clingy and raging like an externalizer, they do the opposite--ignore and create massive amounts of distance... .  eventually coming back around when they are more regulated.

What do you all think? If this is the case, then it will help me a lot in dealing with his distancing whenever I do this.

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[elemental]

Boundries are for your own self. They are based on your values. 

For example, " I won't try to have relationships with men who post photos of themselves on their facebook pages that can be seen by other ladies."

Then when your boyfriend does this, you let him know that you feel uncomfortable with this. If he decides to comply, then wonderful. If he declines to comply, then your boundry is to accept his choice for himself and change your persepctive, or to fall back on your value and enforce your boundry, which is to end the relationship.

As for your question about wether he is silently having an existential burst by unfriending you and ignoring you and if he will come around in a few days after he calms down... .  I do not know.

[AllyCat7]

Hi Elemental,

Thanks for the info. I received a lot of feedback about boundaries in my other thread.

This one, although dealing with boundaries, is more specifically asking about extinction bursts. I want to know if there is a relationship between the traditional type of extinction bursts and what my current bf is displaying. I ask this because I notice he behaves this way when I do state my needs/boundaries. And since internalizers behave sort of opposite of externalizers, I'm thinking that this extreme distancing is analogoous to the extreme clinginess that externalizer BPD people exhibit when they get challenged by their partners.

Has anyone else with an internalizer BPD experienced this? Any other thoughts?

[elemental]

Mine is an internalizer.

I believe it may be shame based. Writing all of those long emails ... .  think about what you are writing. Are you trying to convince him by shaming him. Think about it.

You say you are demanding. It sounds like you may be arguing at him and confronting and he is taking it on as shaming him. That is what mine did. And it took me until recently to realize it.

So I stopped. A regular person wouldn't have taken it the same way and probably I would never have gotton to the point of so much JADE but these guys are BPD or have strong traits.

If this is happening, there probably are many other ways to get your point across to him without demanding, shaming, arguing, confronting, etc.

Why are you uncomfortable with him posting a pic of himself on his facebook page?

[mccarthyhome3]

HI Allycat,

    I believe its any behavior... .  my uBPDex has extinction burst ALL the time its ridiculous. Anyways i do not believe its when he gets quiet and dysregulates... .  I believe its actually what u say hes doing right now to "piss u off" ... .  (im pretty sure)

    So u had asked him for something or set up some sort of boundry right... .  he deletes u and posts pics that he knows u dont like him doing... .  u do not respond to it (thats the extinction) so the next day he continues to post more and more pics... .  Thats the burst(when the behavior gets wore  before it gets better)

    This would happen all the time to me... .  i would tell my ex i didnt like something (for example)

Me: T i dont like it when u call me fat a$$... .  hurts my feelings.

T: (passive aggressivly) Really? im kidding , i wont do it any more

ME: (smiles) thank u

T: Hey chalupa/fattie/(insert any other term u can imagine to call someone fat without saying "fata$$) come here

Me: (completely ignore him)

T: For a week or so calls me everyother name he can think of without saying what i ask him not to say(but he slips up here and there and smiles (oh im sorry i didnt mean to say that)

   

But the more i ignored him the worse it got, eventually it wasnt fun for him anymore cuz i didnt respond so it stopped ( he does test me still once in a while to see what will happen)

Thats a pretty simple example but easy to get the point of... .  Like i was saying its not just one kind of  behavior(like getting quiet) its any. i think i got that right:S

    Goodluck... .  just dont respond, hopefully he'll eventually stop:D

I think i have a better example... .  think of it in terms of a 3 y/o... .  

3y/o: mommy i want a cookie

mom: dinners almost ready, u can have a cookie after dinner

3y/o: (starts to get upset)i dont want dinner I want a cookie

mom: u have to eat dinner first, then u can have a cookie

3y/o: starts crying and whining that he WANTS THE COOKIE NOW

mom: i understand your upset, u can have it after dinner ( u walk away and the crying gets louder)

U ignore the behavior as the child gets louder and louder to get your attention, starts kicking and screaming for 10 minutes until finally they stop... .  Virtually its a temper tantrum

[AllyCat7]

Mine is an internalizer.

I believe it may be shame based. Writing all of those long emails ... .  think about what you are writing. Are you trying to convince him by shaming him. Think about it.

You say you are demanding. It sounds like you may be arguing at him and confronting and he is taking it on as shaming him. That is what mine did. And it took me until recently to realize it.

So I stopped. A regular person wouldn't have taken it the same way and probably I would never have gotton to the point of so much JADE but these guys are BPD or have strong traits.

If this is happening, there probably are many other ways to get your point across to him without demanding, shaming, arguing, confronting, etc.

Why are you uncomfortable with him posting a pic of himself on his facebook page?

Hi Elemental, I see what you're saying. The long emails are not ideal. But our communication has been so sporadic and lacking lately. It's mostly just been text messages and hanging out in person. But we haven't hung out in person in almost two months. Also, this guy has the UNCANNIEST way of knowing when something is on my mind in regards to the relationship and will avoid me like the PLAGUE when he can sense that. I'm sure most BPDers are like that. So if I call him or have him call me and he senses something is wrong, he'll say and do anything to avoid confrontation. I think he even has lied a few times about being in the same room as his friends when he answers the phone, knowing that I won't go into anything serious while his friends are there... .  even though I don't think they are!

My emails are not that bad, not to me at least. I usually always tell him how great I think he is and that I love him in addition to other issues. But I can see how that might not matter to a pwBPD. Maybe all he focuses on are the issues. Hmm. So then how would one go about addressing anything with these folks if it will cause them shame? Maybe I need to read more of the lessons to learn about this stuff. If he comes back around, I'll ask him how he wants me to communicate issues to him. Also, do you think he may have taken my last e-mail as a "breakup" email? Could that be why he's dysregulating and acting like that on FB? If so, should I reach out to him or just wait for him to reach out to me? He usually freezes when he feels ashamed of something and then I have to pull him out. But at the same time, I don't want him to always rely on me to do that. I want him to learn how to come to me.

Also, it's not that he is posting pics that bothers me. But I don't like when he posts PUBLIC pictures--pictures that anyone on FB can see, whether they are his friends or not (as it invites many friend requests from the opposite gender). He also does this when he is dysregulated and goes on a friend-adding spree at the same time, so I will see new girls "liking" these pictures, which hurts. Also, there is a bit of an unwritten code I've noticed on FB (from my observations) that people who are in exclusive relationships don't change their default picture much. When they start changing it more often (esp if they are alone in the pic), it's assumed they are single and seeking attention from other single people. So that's why I don't like it. He doesn't like it when I change mine either, so I don't do it much. If there wasn't already history of him being unfaithful and meeting girls through FB, it wouldn't bother me as much either. I think it's the combination.

[AllyCat7]

Hi McCarthy, Thanks for answering! That was helpful. But this latest thing he's doing is not the norm. Usually, he won't do the FB stuff or the tantrums. He'll just get quiet on me. That's how he usually responds when I state my needs. This latest thing with the posting pics to piss me off probably has more to do with him feeling bad about the way I may have come across in my email (as Elemental pointed out). Hmm. I will have to observe this pattern some more.

[waverider]

If the intention of a persons behavior is to try to bypass or breakdown  someone else's imposed boundary then it is extinction burst type behavior whether done by passive means or aggressive means. As opposed to spiteful tit for tat, which is just payback behavior

Work out what he is trying to achieve by the behavior and you will have your answer.

Is he trying to prove he cant be controlled or is he trying get you to cave in?

[elemental]

Ok, next question is this:

You don't trust him to respect your relationship and not cross boundries with other women?

You can't control him by talking at him or demanding anything. All you can control is your own self.

[AllyCat7]

If the intention of a persons behavior is to try to bypass or breakdown  someone else's imposed boundary then it is extinction burst type behavior whether done by passive means or aggressive means. As opposed to spiteful tit for tat, which is just payback behavior

Work out what he is trying to achieve by the behavior and you will have your answer.

Is he trying to prove he cant be controlled or is he trying get you to cave in?

Hmm, I'm not sure. If he is doing it to try to get me to "cave in", what exactly is he trying to get me to do? It's interesting that he is escalating it: Day 1 - I sent the email. He deletes me. I don't react. Day 2. He uploads pics to a public album. I don't react. Day 3 - He changes his default pic and makes it public. I don't react. Assuming he does want me to react, what exactly is he looking for from me?

I figured I wouldn't react because he was doing it to make me upset and/or show that he won't be controlled. But if he is doing it as a cry for attention, then maybe I should say something? On the other hand, though, shouldn't he learn to soothe himself on his own and not always rely on me? Can he figure that out on his own before being diagnosed or treated? Or should I step in like I usually do?

[AllyCat7]

Btw, I also thought he may have painted me black, which is why I was avoiding him. Is it best to avoid pwBPD when they paint you black?

Also, unrelated question, how does one edit posts on this forum? I can't seem to figure it out

[elemental]

He is showing you that you cannot control him. You told him he is not trustworthy ( by demanding that he not do those things because you are insecure) and he disagrees with you.

He doesn't need you to soothe him.

You don't need to say anything to him at all. He controls him, you control you.

Why don't you trust him? Did he cheat on you? Are you insecure in general. If you feel insecure, the way to feel better is not to control him. You gave him a choice: friend or girlfriend. He is choosing himself, not you.

Not to sound harsh, but controlling his actions is not your way forward.

You can only modify posts for about an hour, after that option is not there.

[AllyCat7]

Ok, next question is this:

You don't trust him to respect your relationship and not cross boundries with other women?

You can't control him by talking at him or demanding anything. All you can control is your own self.

I see what you're saying. I was definitely not good at defining my boundaries in the beginning, which someone with BPD will fully take advantage of, I've come to learn. I guess that's why it's throwing him off that I'm doing it now.

Regarding what you were saying about the email, assuming it made him feel bad (which it very well may have), I was thinking of sending a follow up. What do you think?

"I'm sorry if my last email made you feel bad or pushed you away. I didn't intend for that. Anyway, I know you are busy out there so maybe we can save this stuff for another time. In the meantime, I'll be here if you need me or want to k.i.t."

Btw, he is out of the country on business for the next two weeks, so that's why I said we can put it off. Do you think sending an email like this is coddling him? Should I just not say anything at all? I don't want to enable his avoidant behavior but I also don't want him to think I'm abandoning him if I stay silent, which I have read that some people with BPD tend to take that as. Gosh this is so tricky!

[AllyCat7]

He is showing you that you cannot control him. You told him he is not trustworthy ( by demanding that he not do those things because you are insecure) and he disagrees with you.

He doesn't need you to soothe him.

You don't need to say anything to him at all. He controls him, you control you.

Why don't you trust him? Did he cheat on you? Are you insecure in general. If you feel insecure, the way to feel better is not to control him. You gave him a choice: friend or girlfriend. He is choosing himself, not you.

Not to sound harsh, but controlling his actions is not your way forward.

You can only modify posts for about an hour, after that option is not there.

No, I'm not insecure. That isn't the problem. It's sort of tricky because we are from a conservative culture where people date on the down low. Relationships aren't really made public. As such, it's hard to draw boundaries of exclusivity. So I didn't really know how to draw them. In the past, I just played it by ear. If a guy seemed like he was making me his #1, I was pretty secure and didn't ask if he was talking to other girls. This has worked for me with other guys. And it worked for me with this guy in the beginning when he was giving me all sorts of attention. But then he started the push/pull stuff, so I didn't feel like his #1 anymore. I also heard from others that he was talking to other girls. I brought that up once, after which he froze. I should have stood my ground and defined my boundaries at that moment, but I didn't. That was a huge mistake. Although I heard of other girls, I did not mention them to him after that. I just gauged the relationship by how much attention he was giving me and if he gave me less than I was comfortable with, I would say something. He has been giving me very little attention the past few months, so that's what my last two emails were a reaction to. I'm not insecure, but I need to know where I stand with someone, whether that means we're together or not together and whether that's stated explicity or implicitly.

And I have not been as controlling as it may appear. I react based on his actions. If he does something I don't like, I'll tell him, after which he usually pulls away, then I pull away, then he usually comes back around. If he does something I like, I'll tell him I like it. And the email wasn't controlling either. It basically told him that I don't want to be in a sate of limbo. I gave him a choice. I didn't tell him not to be with other girls and force him to be with me. I don't think you're giving me enough credit here.

[elemental]

The key point I was trying to get at is you can't control him.

I also wondered about your culture because it did seem very controlling and insecure to be telling someone that they can't put up pics on their facebook page or talk to other people.

What is your culture? Maybe someone is here who has experience in that direction.

[AllyCat7]

The key point I was trying to get at is you can't control him.

I also wondered about your culture because it did seem very controlling and insecure to be telling someone that they can't put up pics on their facebook page or talk to other people.

What is your culture? Maybe someone is here who has experience in that direction.

I know that I can't control him. I never tried to. But, as I stated, setting boundaries when it came to other girls was difficult since we were practically dating behind closed doors. It leads to a lot of confusion. But even in spite of that, I have been really mature and secure. I am not some deranged, controlling person (I am actually a little too hands off than I should be). And if anyone is super controlling, it's him. He spies on my FB page through mutual friends to see if there are any guys. If he saw any that he thought I was talking to (which I never was), he would add them to his page and start befriending them. It was kind of unsettling. He has also gone out of his way to tell some of our mutual friends we were dating as a way to "claim me" in the beginning when I was not comfortable with it. Also, if I post on ANY guys' wall on FB, even if they are a friend, he would give me silent treatment. Meanwhile, he has new girls on his page every week, and I'm not even allowed to ask him about it or he shuts down and all but abandons the relationship. I'm really not the controlling one here. I'm just looking out for myself at the moment because I am almost certain he's been stringing me along the last few months while making other girls his priority. I guess I won't say anything to him then or do anything. I stated my case and that's that.

We are middle eastern, btw.

[AllyCat7]

I'm still not sure how to edit posts. I don't know exactly where to click. Can anyone help? Thanks!

[waverider]

Do you have the modify button next to the post title near the quote button?

If you need to modify something after the time limit expires ask an Ambassador or Advisor to do it for you as they can do it anytime.

[waverider]

Controlling and demanding is telling him he cant contact other girls, and hoping he will comply. Then arguing about it

Boundary is saying if you contact other girls, you will have no further contact as long as it happens. No further argument

In other words you action a consequence, he can either modify his behavior or not, ball in his court, if he doesnt comply so be it.

Whether your request is reasonable or not is not the issue, if your demand is unreasonable to him then you have a conflict of principles, and so RS is unviable, and you are incompatible. He doesn't have to comply, nor do either of you have to be in the RS. You both have choices as to how you live. Better sort these principles issues out early rather than potentially spend the rest of your lives fighting

[RedCandle]

Can anyone advise on what happens AFTER an extinction burst?

In my case, a month ago his behavior became outrageous when I stopped replying to his emails. When he did not get the desired result (my spending Christmas with him)... .  he disappeared.

Now, as of tomorrow, we are one month No Contact.

Is this typical after an extinction burst?

Or is this just "I hate you"... .  ?

[AllyCat7]

Hi Waverider, thanks for your reply! I don't see a modify button anywhere. Is there a way it can be turned on or off? I'll ask the moderators, too.

Also, I get what you're saying about boundaries. It was hard to set them since we couldn't be an official, public type of couple. Having that luxury to be public provides so much security that people don't realize. I wish I could have that. Guess I'll just have to figure out other ways in the meantime. I thought gauging his attention towards me was a good barometer. And according to that, he has def been talking to other girls, which was further confimed when seeing his FB and also hearing what other people were saying. I'm glad I finally put my foot down then. I don't mind being friends with him, but that limbo state was god awful. People with BPD seem to revel in that position, though... .  with multiple people. It's crazy

[waverider]

Look into the triangulation aspect of BPD and you will see they often involve third parties, so there is always one rescuer and one persecutor. Often changing roles, and they split between the two and can drive wedges in families and friendships this way, by causing the other parties to view each other badly.

You will see this occurring in nearly every workplace or family were a pwBPD is involved

[rosannadanna]

Hey Alleycat7! 

Withdrawal is not an an extinction burst.  An extinction means "no longer exists".  The burst is an increase of the undesirable behavior just before it stops.  The theory is that two people have gotten into a pattern that has resulted in one person being unhappy with the other's behavior, but ironically, for their part of the pattern, the unhappy person contributed to the behavior they don't like in the other person.

Like the mom who gives the kid a cookie when the kid screams.  She does it initally just to have relief, but soon she realizes she's in a quandry, b/c when she withholds the cookie, the kid screams louder and louder and she gives in.  Now if she bechanges her part of the behavior pattern, and consisitently doesn't give in(this is the hard part), the kid will stop screaming for the cookie b/c he will realize that no matter how much he screams, he will not get the cookie.  Ultimately, he will change his part of the pattern (stop asking after one "no" b/c mom changed her part of the pattern.  The burst is the increase of the kid's screaming right before he stops.

I think when we talk about extinction bursts in regard to our relationships with our BPD's, we are deciding to change our part in a relationship pattern in hopes of extiguishing a specific behavior in our SO.   It is hard, just as it is for mom withholding the cookie, bc our BPD's will ramp up the undesirable behavior to try to get you to return to the old pattern.  Eventually, the best you can hope for is that you have learned a new pattern of relating to your SO.  In my opinion, no behavior is ever really truly 100% gone, especially when you are talking about an adult who has long-estabilshed ways of interacting with their world to survive and to get their needs meeds met.  You may have a reduction of the behavior, but it will undoubtedly come out when your BPD is stressed.

[rosannadanna]

Is your SO diagnosed?  Just wondering.  It will help you to accept that he is a mentally ill person who will not be able to handle an intimate relationship like someone who does not have BPD.  If you want a full-on, boyfriend/girlfiend relationship with him, especially if you are thinking about something longterm with children, please give this a lot of thought and ask yourself if you want to take this on.  You will be a caretaker of sorts, will take care of his needs without full reciprocation, and will have to look within yourself and places other than him to replenish emotionally.  Also, ask yourself what attracts you to men with these traits.  You might find some fascinating answers and an increased compassion for your SO.

The thing that seems be happening with you guys now is the push/pull, go away, come closer stuff.  This is the central theme with these relationships b/c we (intimacy) are their triggers.  The push/pull is one of those things you will have to think hard about as to whether you really want to embark on this journey, b/c it will continue to happen.  It may diminish as your SO feels more secure with you, but will continue to some extent.

Also FB is an enemy to the BPD relationship in my opinion, especially yours from the sound of it.  It is creating huge amounts of triangulation and you are making yourself crazy.  I know b/c I have been there.  BPD's feel empty and FB is one outlet to fill the emptiness.  Also it is a perfect conduit to have plenty of women friends.  I know with my BPD, it is about having back up plans if I leave.  He did this during his marriage, too.  His mom died when he was five, so this is a no brainer.  I currently have CC with my BPD.  I enjoy the time that we spend together.  I accept who he is and I know if I seem to need support, he withdraws.  I have other means of support so it's ok.  I don't take it personally like he is doing it to be spiteful.  He is doing it b/c he is mentally ill.  He is generally a sweet, caring, funny, and intelligent person and has had so much suffering in his life that I want to stay connected to him to see how he is doing.  But itis not an equal relationship and never will be.

I hope this helps you in your journey     

[waverider]

One last word on boundaries and extinction bursts. They are not there to shoehorn them into "normal" behavioral patterns, that is doomed to failure and endless conflict. They are simply there to protect you from behavior that you simply cannot deal with (rather than would prefer not to) at a basic level. They have to be used in parallel with a lot of acceptance that their overall behavior will not be "normal"

Agree with the point rosannadanna is making, the "extinction" part often means they dont do it as they see no reward in it, but the basic desire can remain. This is why you have to be 100% firm, if you make an isolated exception you provide intermittent reinforcement and it flares up worse than before. This is the theory behind poker machines, the odd payout fuels the addiction to keep trying.

[pk]

Don't know if this will she any light on the subject but when my BPDh of 20 years withdraws the way you are describing it is because he feels smothered.  Yes, if I ask him to meet a need of mine or to do something that would make us closer or if he feels like I am over-communicating (long emails) he will withdraw, write to other women, play on FB or do something to deliberately p*ss me off so that it will create a distance between us.  Some serious intimacy issues that he and his therapist are working on.  He may also push me away because he is "shame based" and whenever I ask him to fulfill a need of mine he automatically feels he has failed and crawls away with his tail between his legs feeling worthless.  He even says just that.

I express need. like "I am really having a rough night.  Could you go to bed with me and hold me".

Him- "You are always trying to put me to bed and I don't know why you think I would want to after you just told me what a failure I was and how I never hold you and what a loser I am.  Why would you want me to hold you any way?' As he stomps out of the room

Me- I just wanted held.

Extinction bursts are something they do very dramatically when they feel they are about to lose someone they are trying to control.  Like my husband will attempt suicide if I try to leave him or with threaten someone who is ending a friendship with threats of hurting himself or other behavior designed to manipulate the other individual.  My husband will even have physical symptoms accompany his extinction bursts like a panic attack because he is legitimately  panicked.  They do not plan them out- it is done from an instinct of self preservation - hence the name extinction burst.