How to stop JADE

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I used to go with the flow, even when I didn't want to in most areas of my life.  I've started to be more assertive, particularly at work.  If they ask my opinion, I give it honestly.  But, I've noticed a co-worker who challenges my opinions on a pretty regular basis.  I've been trying to step back and observe our dynamic and figure it out - figure out what button this pushes in me.

I feel invalidated in the process.  She says should we have the meeting here?  I say no - and give my reasons why.  Then she goes after my reasons and says they're all wrong.  Yesterday, I finally asked her - why do you ask my opinion if you really don't want it.  She said, "Sorry if you're feeling invalidated" and moved on.

I feel like I"m always explaining my opinions - and perhaps, no explanation is necessary.  Nope, I like the purple one.  Not why I like the purple one, just that I do.  I think I talk too much in general, and that's also something I'd like to change about myself.    I think it's about wanting to feel heard?  I'm not sure what's happening there, but I'd like to change the process.  Any insights or books you can point me to would be great.

[ambi]

I used to go with the flow, even when I didn't want to in most areas of my life.  I've started to be more assertive, particularly at work.  If they ask my opinion, I give it honestly.  But, I've noticed a co-worker who challenges my opinions on a pretty regular basis.  I've been trying to step back and observe our dynamic and figure it out - figure out what button this pushes in me.

I feel invalidated in the process.  She says should we have the meeting here?  I say no - and give my reasons why.  Then she goes after my reasons and says they're all wrong.  Yesterday, I finally asked her - why do you ask my opinion if you really don't want it.  She said, "Sorry if you're feeling invalidated" and moved on.

I feel like I"m always explaining my opinions - and perhaps, no explanation is necessary.  Nope, I like the purple one.  Not why I like the purple one, just that I do.  I think I talk too much in general, and that's also something I'd like to change about myself.    I think it's about wanting to feel heard?  I'm not sure what's happening there, but I'd like to change the process.  Any insights or books you can point me to would be great.

[Manon46]

Try to turn it around... why do you give your reasons? if you know she doesn't care what they are. She's doing it her way anyway so why bother ?

If she asks you... should we have the meeting here ? You say no, she asks why ? you say "why not" something like that.

Like you say... give no reasons when not asked. Just say no. Most times the other person will ask "why not" if you reply with "why would we" they start explaining and you can invalidate their reasons  and even if they don't listen, they did hear you

But the underlying reasons for repeating our reasons, explaining ourselves is that we validate the other person more than we do ourselves. We want to be heard, but why ?

Are they so important to you that it means a lot if they listen to you ? Like you are a minor person ? Validation from someone else always leads to disappointment, to feeling invalidated because you make them more important than you are. So they don't validate you... so what.  Obviously she uses you to validate her own reasons and opinions.

By ignoring you, she feels more important. Don't give her that. Let her have it her way, life if you don't care. It will make her feel less important

[gina louise]

Manon46.

That simple "why not" you suggest in the conversation caused nothing but drama with my UBPD (w/NPD traits) H.

In his mind I wasn't allowed to question his authority, or give what he perceived as a criticism. So I had to tread ever so carefully with those why's or why not's!

Is there any other ways of refuting that does not come across as JADE?

One can't always divorce the co-workers/friends or walk away from the conversation when you're in a meeting at work for example. Sometimes there's others present... .  and if you are a manager like I am, it can get to be a busy conversation!

I usually wanted my employees to give me reasons or ask questions-but there's always that ONE, that can't let go!

thanks,

GL

[Manon46]

Ofcourse it creates drama... .  the "why not" answer is not accepted by ex because we challenge them, and that they don't like. It invalidates them. So we back off out of fear.

That doesn't mean it isn't the right answer. It is our fear that forces us to reframe an answer, not theirs.

In case of managers/employees it might be different. But i didn't understand that this was a manager/employee relation ? I thought it was something between collegues.

The button she pushes, is the invalidation button. They can only push that button if you feel inferior to another person. So, why do you feel inferior. Why you look as if they are more important/smart/intelligent... etc.etc. It all comes down to feeling less. And mostly that feeling comes from a time far far in our past.

[gina louise]

Manon46,

hi

I was asking in general in the case of an employee or friend-perhaps Ambi's question was the specific one with a colleague/peer.

I guess I was wondering if there was a more general way to not JADE when someone asks for an opinion but then has ten different ways to tell you how "wrong" you are?

One that doesn't rely on the specific of the r/s. (parent to teen , spouses, peers, co-workers... .  )

To me, especially at work saying WHY NOT can come off as flippant, or challenging. I would hesitate there.

I suppose you have to (ugh, not again) VALIDATE their feelings... .  so you could say-I see how you might feel that way, and I am just offering another view.  It's ONLY one opinion. Full Stop. stbxBPDhit.

Sometimes one must defend ones decisions-at work, at home, with kids. it's not always appropriate to back off or turn things around... .  I guess that's where my mind is.

thanks,

GL

[Manon46]

I see,

I guess there is nothing wrong with saying " I hear you" but since I am responsible for whatever comes out of it, I ll make the decision which feels the most appropriate for me. Something like that ?

I think there are too many different situations to give one solution. It differs on which side you are. Boss or employee, parent or spouse...

You don't HAVE to validate their feelings, you always have a choice not to. If you are really interested in what some one else has to say, there is no problem with validation. Somehow validation triggers resentment in us, but it's not always properly.

But still... in my opinion there never is a must on defending. Explaining maybe but not defending. It might feel as defending, but it doesn't have to be.

We  might be too defensive sometimes and feel everything as unvalidating, while the other person is just explaining why their decision is right. We FEEL that we are considered "wrong", but it is just their opinion and explanation, what we do with that, how we feel about that, is ours not theirs.

Through our own projection we think we know what some one else means or wants. If you can let that go, you see just what is. A person with an opinion, just like us

[ambi]

Try to turn it around... why do you give your reasons?

I give the reasons for my opinion (before anyone asks for them) as a defense - justifying why I'm saying no to something.  I don't do it very often when I'm agreeing.  It might be conflict avoidant and it might be about not quite getting the hang of being assertive. 

I already knew she wanted me to agree with her about where to hold the meeting. 

This seems to happen when people ask a question, fishing for a certain answer.  ":)on't you want to go out for a drink after work?"  No, I don't.  But, my No turns into - no, I have to go home and blah, blah blah. 

It's when I'm telling people no.  And, this woman nails me on it every time.  If I just said "No", there'd be nothing to argue with.  But, as soon as I give a reason, it becomes a debate.  I need to stop providing justifications for my decisions and choices. 

[truly amazed]

Hi,

A hard one. Work relationships.

Why ? use that and ask why here instead of here ? Put it right back on them without being hostile. Very important.

Ask someone else their opinion on your view.

If this person putting you down is the boss, not much one can do with that sort of person and leadership. Give your opinion and reasons and ask why their view is better. get them to explain why. Keep doing this but without hostility, play dumb, if after they explain their view and reasoning it may prove they are right. Say thank you for explaining your reasoning and I now see how YOU WERE RIGHT. Acknowledge their view. If they persist in their view don't press it but get them to explain it and their reasoning and if you still disagree acknowledge they are the boss if that's what they are but you don't agree with them, all without anger or angst.

Being told you are not validated is a form of a put down and abuse. You appear to know this well. Standing your ground not to cause arguments is what for me was lacking in my BPD Rs ... .  lack of boundaries. If someone does this again, do not get angry, JUST ASK WHY ... .  calmly and if they could explain why their idea is better than your own as you don't understand.

lastly PICK YOUR BATTLES ... .  be calm and it may be you don't understand ... .  it may be the other person being a pig ... .  but asking someone why and to explain so you do in a calm and polite voice even if they insist to do it their way will have to be done in front of all the rest of the people and they can make their own minds up to the merits of your idea.

take care   

[maria1]

Ambi- I do the same thing, give much more information/ explanation than I need to. I tried just limiting myself. Pausing, stopping and using less words in my response. It feels hard but it gets easier. I feel like I'm on hyper alert sometimes and talk too much, this hyper alert lessens if I consciously talk less and somehow I like myself more. I hate to witter , which is what I hear myself doing!

Try doing it for one day and see how you get on. Stop when you've given the information necessary and give no more. Then see how you feel at the end of the day.

[ambi]

I really appreciate the feedback and questions. It helps me sort it out.   One part is being okay with saying "no".  I don't have defend the "no" before it's even been challenged.  I like the idea of saying "Why not".

It's not a boss.  It's a colleague.  So, there is no

Maria - there's a piece of things in what you said. 

I feel like I'm on hyper alert sometimes and talk too much, this hyper alert lessens if I consciously talk less and somehow I like myself more. I hate to witter , which is what I hear myself doing!

  That's the part where I wish i didn't talk so much.  I'll try out pause, stop, use less words.  Make my point and stop talking.  Unless it's that colleague, and then I'm trying the "Why not?"  LOL

[Blazing Star]

Try to turn it around... why do you give your reasons?

I give the reasons for my opinion (before anyone asks for them) as a defense - justifying why I'm saying no to something.  I don't do it very often when I'm agreeing.  It might be conflict avoidant and it might be about not quite getting the hang of being assertive. 

It sounds like you are getting to the heart of it yourself here Ambi.

Something I read once that has helped me think about what I say, is a story about a Yogic exercise that involves spending a week with a coin in your mouth, and whenever you want to talk you have to remove the coin - thus making you really think before you talk.

It sounds like you are becoming more aware of talking, and awareness is half way there. I know it can be very hard just to witness the uncomfortableness you feel when you hold back from a pattern of defending yourself.

Have you been looking into what is behind the need to Justify/Defend?

Love Blazing Star

[ambi]

Have you been looking into what is behind the need to Justify/Defend

  I had a dire lack of boundaries with others.  I've been improving that over time, but I haven't quite gotten over that feeling that I'm selfish if I say "no" to someone.  I defend to knock back the selfish feelings.  I'm seeking approval externally since I'm not there yet on internally approving myself.  Just not comfortable in my own skin yet. 

[ambi]

And thank you - the questions help me process through when I'm stuck in my thinking.  It's a real help!

[Suzn]

I've been trying to step back and observe our dynamic and figure it out - figure out what button this pushes in me.

Do you think this button has anything to do with self worth? Feeling the need to defend your opinion when not asked? Your opinion matters just as much as anyone else's does.

Yesterday, I finally asked her - why do you ask my opinion if you really don't want it.  She said, "Sorry if you're feeling invalidated" and moved on.

Whoop, what a side step on her part. You likely confronted her because you want your opinion to matter to her as much as hers does. And why wouldn't you, that's fair, that's reciprocity in a working relationship. I like the idea of choosing your battles and especially in the work place. I have a couple of difficult people at work too. With these people I have learned to take the wind out of their sails before it even kicks up. If I were in your shoes with this question "where do you want to have the meeting" and you already know how this is going to play out... .  my response is a sincere "I don't care, I'm more interested in getting to the business of the meeting". If you are really vested in a location each time you have meetings, let her chose a few times, then let her know when the next opportunity arises "I'm choosing our meeting location today". Nothing else, not because it's your turn or for any other reason.

It's likely you intimidate her. If someone is always telling you how wrong you are for something this simple?

There is nothing wrong with an outgoing personality, that can be intimidating for insecure people. If you feel comfortable speaking don't squash that. If your saying that most of your "talking" is defending then ok try practicing some mindfulness, pay attention to those impulses and slow down, it's a good way to practice "thinking before you speak".

I finally asked her - why do you ask my opinion if you really don't want it.  

This doesn't sound like something a person who might be conflict avoidant would say btw. Her response sure does though. This was a straight forward question and she wasn't capable of giving you an answer. This is assuming she doesn't want your opinion, but she doesn't "seem" to want your opinion. Maybe I've turned into somewhat of a word Nazi.    "You don't seem to want hit_... .  is that true, or am I reading you wrong?" Yep, let me just hand that unfriendly behavior back to ya Mr Coworker.  

[ambi]

Do you think this button has anything to do with self worth?

Yes. 


[Penny in my mouth]