Dealing with husband's BPD(?) ex wife

[Allure]

Hello,

My husband's ex wife seems to have BPD, according to our Therapists.

Recap- she left my husband for another man and has history of alcoholism and serial cheating. My husband hang on to the marriage because of their 3 beautiful children and his own family values. She met a business man at a AAA meeting and left my husband for this man while he was deployed. My husband came back and asked to repair the marriage for the sake of their children. She refused but asked him to cohabit-ate with her while she continued to date this man. My husband refused and started dating other women. After 6 months, we met and we became friends. They in turn finalized their divorce and we dated after that. 

At this time they were co- parenting and they had equal time share with the children. High conflicts and a lot of phone calls to my husband everyday and every night and would even stop by his house unannounced. After 1.5 years of dating, I set boundaries on this and she flipped and emailed my husband's parents and my previous Counselor who happened to be her Counselor as well.

Fast forward 6 months and we were married and lots of drama but will not go into it. Husband deployed for a year and when he came back, filed in court to adjust timeshare schedule due to had to move for the military and RO on her due to harassment. In retaliation, she hired the most expensive lawyer and filed for a child support adjustment, increased the children's expenses by enrolling them in private schools and putting braces on them and demanded that my husband pays 1/2 of all the expenses including medical bills while he was deployed and her lawyer's fee. Businessman boyfriend funded all of this.

During this time I noticed a pattern that every time my husband would email her to stop harassing his wife and family, her response email was about asking for money for the children's expenses.

Fast forward 10 months, she was caught lying in court when she could not present any medical bill that she claims was not paid by TRICARE. Hearing had to be vacated because of lack of documentation on her part. My husband offered a settlement including an increase in child support but she refused because it wasn't enough. Her lawyer discharged her from his services because she refused his advise and recommendation and due to her erratic behavior.

Her lawyer expressed puzzlement with her behavior because she was acting like a newly divorced woman when documents show they have been divorced for close to 4 years and separated for 6 years.

Fast forward to now. Our court case is still pending and she went to several lawyers but no one would take her case so her and boyfriend are representing herself. They met with my lawyer recently and again, according to my husband's lawyer displayed a lot of anger, hostility and irrational behavior. She refused to accept a settlement although her boyfriend is wanting to settle as opposed to going to court. We are still waiting for his proposal.

In the meantime, military moved us further and are able to see the children only 3x a year(which infuriates her). My husband and ex wife communicates via the parenting coordinator assigned by the court. Most of her communications which are cc'd to my husband's parents and her boyfriend are asking for my husband to pay for the children's extra costs that are not "shelter, food and clothing" which according to her are what the child support covers. My husband's parents gives in and sends her money to try and pacify her so they can continue to have the children the entire summer when they are not with us.

My questions are:

1. Does my husband's ex wife sound like she has BPD?

2. Is my husband supposed to pay 1/2 of extra expenses that are not clothes, food and shelter?

3. Is my husband supposed to pay for her HOA, the YMCA membership fee and mileage she incurred driving the children back and forth to their sport activities?

4. How do we respond to her when she is asking for money for the children's extra costs?

My own divorce was pretty simple and I never asked for extra pay from my ex husband so this is baffling to me. Any guidance/feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[ForeverDad]

1. No one here can say she has BPD, but based on the behaviors and behavior patterns... .  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... .  

2. Extra expenses... .  what does the order say?

3. Child support is to cover all those standard expenses.  She's divorced, so her HOA, her YMCA and things that are not directly child related are clearly her responsibility.

4. Don't try to reason with her, at least not beyond the first response.  Make all responses short, concise and devoid of emotions.

Summary... .  Money does not appease the disorderedness, it only further enables her sense of entitlement to demand ever more.

I hope his order says he only pays for standard school expenses.  There was one father here a few years back whose ex did just what your husband's ex did and his judge forced him to pay for the higher private school tuitions, stating that his order didn't limit how much he was to pay for education or school and his ex as residential parent was allowed to decide where the child went to school.  He was devastated, both financially and emotionally.

[Matt]

Read the court order and follow it.  Don't respond to demands - just pay what the court order says to pay.

[Allure]

Hello,

Thanks for the advice.

Problem is the parenting plan and divorce decree was based on equal time share but with a full child support payment. My husband did not go to a Lawyer and just went along with her.

Because of the equal time share, they were supposed to share the expenses equally but only if they both agree. Ex wife enrolled the children to private schools without my husband's consent. Same thing with the braces. She took the children to physicians not within The insurance network without my husband's consent. My husband's lawyer said my husband is not supposed to pay what he did not agree on.

My husband went to court to change the parenting plan for the timeshare because we do not live in the same town anymore and to also revise the "one half expenses" order and make it airtight as possible. Problem is she does not want to settle and keeps threatening my husband that the court will make him pay more.

My husband is tired of all her threats and does not even react to them anymore. However, ex wife asks him for money for any little thing. My husband says she is addicted to communicating with him whether his response is negative or positive, any response from him, she wants it.

The problem is the Parenting Coordinator made a rule for my husband to respond in one day, if not, ex wife can do whatever she wants and my husband will have to pay his half. Ex wife does not ask for my husband to pay everything in one email. She rations out her requests one by one email by email. We don't know if this to catch my husband not responding so he will have to pay or it is because she wants to hear from him everyday.

My husband is thinking of emailing the ex wife to say he will only respond to request for expenses on Wednesdays and only if they are clearly itemized with the actual costs. If they are not itemized with the actual costs and the requests are not made on Mondays, he will not pay.

What do you think?

[Matt]

File a motion to fix these problems.

First, decide if equal time is really best for the kids.  If not, ask for the time you both think is best.

If it stays equal time, and expenses are to be shared equally, figure out a practical way to make that work.  For us it's not a problem at all - each parent pays the costs when the kids are with them, and big costs, like medical expenses, are split equally.

If things are supposed to be decided by both parties agreeing, put a practical method for that into the motion.  Should be e-mail so there is a record.  If 24 hours is too fast, make it 48.  Check your e-mail all the time, and respond - just "OK" or "I don't agree." - right away.

Texting is probably not good.  Phone calls are usually not good.  Just don't take the calls - check voice-mail and if it's really urgent call her back.

Don't respond to anything you don't think is appropriate.  Disengage - take a step back, then another, then another.

Don't be afraid of the court.  If you are acting reasonably, and the other side is making threats, don't be afraid to put it all in front of the judge and let her sort it out.

[DreamGirl]

My husband is thinking of emailing the ex wife to say he will only respond to request for expenses on Wednesdays and only if they are clearly itemized with the actual costs. If they are not itemized with the actual costs and the requests are not made on Mondays, he will not pay.

What do you think?

I think that it's a good idea for the interim until you can get it addressed (like Matt suggested).

"I will consider all your requests for reimbursement, but not on a daily basis (or ever other daily), it's causing too many arguments between you and I. Please submit them on a weekly basis, or submit them as they come and I will address them every Sunday."

CC: the parenting coordinator and ask if it's OK first - otherwise, default to "no, I don't agree at this time, I need time to consider and I will get back to you by Sunday."

The PC wants peace for you two as well and it's reasonable to wait more then a day to consider what you're willing to split. It's not fair to ignore her either - which I think the PC was trying to prevent.

~DreamGirl

[Allure]

Thanks Dreamgirl!

We actually just found out she just hired another lawyer(not in the same town because no one would take her case) and she is deposing my husband. According to my husband's lawyer, based on his conversation with her and her fiancée, they have unrealistic expectation that everything is supposed to be split in half 50/50 irregardless if my husband agrees or not on the expenses. My husband's lawyer thinks this is the real issue.

My husband and I personally think she just wants her "day in court". Her exact words in her email. My position on this is give her "her day in court". Let her have her day of vengeance and let her think she has won. I even told my husband to give her this huge amount of money she is asking for as long as the parenting agreement is done in an airtight manner and no more of asking for money on a daily basis.

In the end, we really just want her out of our lives and not have this back and forth conversation via email which is what she wants. My husband's sister says she is a psycho.

[Matt]

We actually just found out she just hired another lawyer(not in the same town because no one would take her case) and she is deposing my husband.

This could be a golden opportunity.  In my case, depositions turned things around significantly.

The key is for your husband's lawyer to file a similar motion, to depose the other party.  They can both be deposed on the same day.

It will be best if the other party is deposed first, so you can all hear what she says before your husband is deposed.

But in any case, your husband just needs to tell the truth, in the shortest possible way.  "Have you ever received a traffic ticket?"  "Yes."  Not "Yes, several.  The most recent was for... .  ".  Just answer the question and stop.  If he does that - and it's OK to say, "I don't know." or "I don't remember." - he will be fine.

But if the other party has made any false statements or accusations - ever! - deposing her will force her to either put those on the record - under oath - or to admit they aren't true.  If she accused him of X, she can be asked, "Ms. Ex, have you ever seen H do X?".  If she says "No.", then it's on the record, and that accusation is dead.  If she says "Yes.", she can be asked for specifics - where and when, and who else saw it, etc.  Those all go on the record.  Then your lawyer can research that incident, and prove she is lying, and if you go to trial, she can be called to the stand, and asked the same question, and confronted with the evidence, and she will have perjured herself.

The key to this approach is that her lawyer is ethically obligated to take every practical step to keep his client out of criminal jeopardy.  That means he will advise her to take any settlement offer rather than go to trial, where she will be proved to have lied under oath - a crime.

Talk to the lawyer about this.  Ask if he can depose her first.  Then make a list of subjects and questions he can ask her when she is deposed - any accusations she has made, or anything she has done which is against the law, or not in the child's interest - get it all on the record.  This will change the direction of the case dramatically I think.

[Allure]

This would work with normal people but not on my husband's exwife.

My husband's lawyer wanted to depose her last time with her previous lawyer after she perjured herself in front of the judge during the hearing when she admitted she really does not have medical bills for 2008, 2009, 2010. She admitted this after she could not produce one bill in court.

So, we thought she would settle and her lawyer advised her to do so. Needless to say, she refused and her Lawyer fired her.

She still believes she has unpaid medical bills... .   

[DreamGirl]

My husband and I personally think she just wants her "day in court". Her exact words in her email. My position on this is give her "her day in court". Let her have her day of vengeance and let her think she has won. I even told my husband to give her this huge amount of money she is asking for as long as the parenting agreement is done in an airtight manner and no more of asking for money on a daily basis.

In the end, we really just want her out of our lives and not have this back and forth conversation via email which is what she wants.

You know, I think that is a human thing. To feel "valued".

I also think that a pwBPD often seeks this "validation" in some pretty frustrating ways.

I also like your style - you see the bigger picture.

My husband ended up in a second round of court because he grew tired of the threat to "go to court".

It was a blessing because everything got addressed and Mama felt validated that she got to "say her piece" (which included quite a few shots at yours truly). It's all there in the records and every issue got addressed.

Now they have an iron clad parenting plan with no room for intrepretation.

Is that what you're shooting for? I think that will cease the need for so much communication?

~DreamGirl

[Allure]

Hi Dreamgirl,

Basically yes. She kept threatening to increase my husband's child support if he does not give her extra and will withhold the children when we pick them up so he got tired and went to the lawyer to adjust the parenting plan.

We really do not care whatever she says or whatever is on record as long it gets her out of our hair.

An airtight, iron clad parenting plan with no room for interpretation will be awesome so we can all move forward with our life.

How did your husband do it? Did he represent himself?

- Allure

[DreamGirl]

How did your husband do it? Did he represent himself?

No, he had a really good attorney.

She was exactly what he needed actually. She was extremely firm, knew her stuff, and grounded.

And expensive. 

[tog]

We had an ironclad, airtight parenting plan and two months later, my SO's stbxw filed again for sole custody, reopened it all and we paid 10K more to get the exact same agreement again.

Sigh. So it can go on indefinitely if they have the will and the funds.

[Allure]

We had an ironclad, airtight parenting plan and two months later, my SO's stbxw filed again for sole custody, reopened it all and we paid 10K more to get the exact same agreement again.

Sigh. So it can go on indefinitely if they have the will and the funds.

That is what my husband says. He says a lot of men he talked to, once they got married again, their ex wives became crazy and it goes on even when the kids are adults. They gave him some tips and told him to prepare for this for the long haul. After 2 to 3 lawsuits, they became experts and represented themselves.

[Allure]

How did your husband do it? Did he represent himself?

No, he had a really good attorney.

She was exactly what he needed actually. She was extremely firm, knew her stuff, and grounded.

And expensive. 

Hi Dreamgirl,

What were the things that you recall you had to prepare?

[DreamGirl]

Hi Dreamgirl,

What were the things that you recall you had to prepare?

The biggest headache was the receipts - of daycare paid, child support/alimony paid, medical expenses.

They often say that the burden of proof lies on the person doing the accusing. It wasn't true. My husband had to provide every single cancelled check for everything he had paid for.

She was inundated with paperwork that discounted every accusation that he wasn't paying his fair share.

My husband's lawyer was really good and not making it look like a mud slinging case.  Just firmly "answered" every point in the motions (to reduce parenting time and increase child support). Basically saying, "no, it is not in the best interest of the children to x,y, or z".

I will say that the expectation that your husband pay for 50% of all expenses (including gas) is unreasonable. I'm saying that because I feel like her asking for/demanding it has you not really trusting that is actually unreasonable. I, personally, would never agree to blindly pay for 1/2 of something I don't agree with (even the braces).

At my own custody trial, I asked for 100% of mental health expenses for my son - my attorney stated that his issues were due to his Dad's actions. The therapist was only necessary because of him, and the therapist agreed and testified to that. I lost that fight. Judge said that it was my choice and Dad didn't agree to it. I was responsible for 100% of the cost. It was not medically necessary.

Not all Judges are the same. This judge was fair. It was my responsibility and it was my choice.

Agree to what is reasonable. If it takes a little compromise to push negotiations thru, even though it's not technically "fair", that's OK as well (like the braces). Sometimes it helps to make the other person feel like they are "winning".

Or you go to trial - where compromise becomes kinda obsolete where someone else makes the decision for you.

~DreamGirl

[Matt]

This would work with normal people but not on my husband's exwife.

My husband's lawyer wanted to depose her last time with her previous lawyer after she perjured herself in front of the judge during the hearing when she admitted she really does not have medical bills for 2008, 2009, 2010. She admitted this after she could not produce one bill in court.

So, we thought she would settle and her lawyer advised her to do so. Needless to say, she refused and her Lawyer fired her.

She still believes she has unpaid medical bills... .   

It works, one way or another.

Keep the pressure on, and keep the focus on the truth.  Make her answer questions she doesn't want to answer, under oath.

Then take the right steps to follow up - civil action (like a motion to have her declared in contempt for lying under oath) or criminal (in my state it is a crime to lie under oath).

Or have your lawyer meet with hers, and show her lawyer that her client has lied under oath, and make it clear that if you go to trial, she will be put on the stand and confronted with evidence that she lied under oath.  Her lawyer will be ethically obligated to advice her to settle.  Worst case - no settlement - you follow through - go to trial, put her on the stand, and show the court that she has lied under oath.

[Allure]

In our case, husband filed a motion to reduce parenting time due to move OOT which would automatically adjust child support. Ex wife not happy and is accusing DH of abandonment(which she says she will prove in court).

DH is willing to adjust child support in accordance to child support guidelines but is not willing to pay for private schools which she decided on her own. With one of the kids, she has a medical referral to the private school due to ADHD.

In your experience, how does the court rule on that?

DH's parents also send regular check, same amount every month to her. Would this be considered as an income or her?

We also suspect she has another job. How can we find out about this?

In one year, DH had 2 insurances and she only used one and is asking DH to pay co pay. DH asked her to bill secondary insurance but she refused. DH asked her to send him the actual medical bills so he can submit to secondary insurance and she refused. She has mostly receipts that she gave to my husband to pay, not medical bills.

In your opinion, how should we handle this?

[tog]

In our case, my SO's stbxw put SS (then 11) in private school behind SO's back. She got him admitted and he really wanted to go there. She agreed to pay for it all herself in exchange for him agreeing, and he was more or less pressured by the court because no one believed his side of it: this was an attempt on her part to cut him out of the educational process. They couldn't figure out why he wouldn't agree when he didn't have to pay any tuition?

So he agreed and guess what? She tried to cut him out entirely. He spent the first year in that school fighting with them to get joint custody rights (beware... .  in our state, contract law trumps family law, so they didn't have to give him ANY information because she signed the contract). They finally agreed to let him have information, though they still treat him like a second class citizen most of the time.

THEN, with all of her alienation efforts, she managed to get SS to say he wanted to live with her, and bargained that for CS. So now my SO, who makes $25K less than her, pays her child support, which pays all of his tuition and then some. 

Beware the alienation behind transfer to private schools.

[Matt]

A couple of thoughts here... .  

First, about finding out where she's working and what she's making, your lawyer can demand those documents - pay stubs, bank records, etc. - and they probably have to be turned over.  If they aren't, he can subpoena them (and you can ask the court to make the other party pay your legal costs for that since they should have handed them over without a subpoena).

Also, if the other party is deposed, she can be asked about this - "Where are you working?  Do you have more than one job?  What are you paid?" etc. - and she has to answer under oath.  Her attorney will advise her to answer truthfully, and if you can show she lied under oath, you can ask that she be cited for contempt, or even held criminally liable.

About schools and child support, I think you and your husband need to look into these issues, including the ADHD, and decide for yourselves what you believe is right, fair, practical, and best for the kids.  For example, if you find that the public school where you live is very good, and the extra cost of private school is wasted, you can get the schools' academic performance statistics (like the Stanford test results) and show that to the court.  Or if you decide that private school is wise, but you think the cost should be shared, you can propose that.  First decide what you think is right, and then work with your lawyer to present that plan to the court, and explain why it's a good one.

Also, make sure to read the court order now in place, and understand it well.  If you are not in compliance with it, be prepared to explain that.

[DreamGirl]

I think Matt has great advice!

DH's parents also send regular check, same amount every month to her. Would this be considered as an income or her?

Why do they do that?

[ForeverDad]

DH's parents also send regular check, same amount every month to her. Would this be considered as an income or her?

Why do they do that?

Their money may be viewed by the court as "gifts" and be viewed apart from your support.  Also, if he is sending he money now without orders or above the ordered amounts, then that too could be viewed as "gifts".  Very likely he will get no official credit for extra payments.  It doesn't sound fair, but it's part of the unwritten policy in family court, "The misbehaving parent has few if any consequences and the behaving parent gets little or no credit."

Whether money "gifted" to her would be considered as his income or her income, that's probably for a local lawyer or the court to comment on.

One father here a few years back reported that his ex moved their son from public school to private school as soon as she had custody.  Father's order listed him as obligated to pay for "school costs".  He ended up back in family court since he didn't pay the high tuition and court ruled that the standard but vague order said he paid school expenses and that included whatever his ex decided to do as custodial parent.  In effect, she decided and he paid.  So my warning and advice is to be sure that he makes sure his order doesn't vaguely make him pay for school or college expenses above and beyond the standard public options.  Make sure it is specific in such areas.  Vague orders almost always tend to benefit the disordered parent who knows how to manipulate the system.  Vague orders work only for reasonable parents.

That medical recommendation for child to go to private school for ADHD may very well have been just a pediatrician cooperating with a parent's request.  Likely it was not the doctor's idea, perhaps he only rubber stamped it.  However, now that the child is already there it may be more difficult to get the current situation undone, courts love to keep the status quo.  It may take another doctor's expert evaluation and review to state private school wasn't actually "medically required".  This issue, among others, could possibly be addressed in a Custody Evaluation.

[Allure]

DreamGirl,

They've always sent her extra money since they divorced. It is a "pay off" to let his parents have the children for the entire summer. Ex wife loves her freedom but bargains for the children's time for money and she does it in an oblique way. She refused this last summer for the parents to have the children since they stopped sending her money because we were in court. They started again late last year because she let them babysit the children before Christmas while she went OOT with boyfriend.

When she doesnt received money from them by the middle of the month, she starts emailing my husband asking for money with cc to them and the parenting coordinator. Then, his parents send her money. I guess to keep peace. His father told my husband to get the parenting plan revised(original says 50/50 with agreement of both parties) and adjust the child support because if he doesn't, she will ask for more and more money.

The weird thing is the parenting coordinator sees all these emails but does not say anything. I do not know if he is just gathering information to make his recommendation to the judge.

[Allure]

ForeverDad,

The advise that we got was to send her extra money because based on the current pay stubs that she showed us, DH is supposed to pay her more child support but we never did ask for her filed taxes which was part of the settlement offer but she refused to settle. She wants her "day in court". 

She hired another lawyer(her previous one discharged her) and she also said in one of her emails that she has not received her W2's yet which led us to believe she has a 2nd job. Kids say she is working for boyfriend so they can probably hide her income.

Also, ex wife also placed SD in private school even if DH clearly did not agree to it via email and the parenting coordinator knows this and both lawyers know this. Now, she is asking for DH to pay half.

With SS's private school(ADHD), SS does not like his school because SD uses it to put him down and that she is in a better and smarter school than he is so his self- esteem is affected by it. However, it is hard to prove in court.

Another thing, EXW got a scholarship for SS's private school which reduced the amount of the tuition fee(one of her emails stated it) and now she is claiming she made a mistake and she paid full price. How do we find out the truth?

All in all, it is obvious she is getting money from somewhere(she says she is begging and borrowing for money) to support the children's lifestyle(school and extra curricular activities). How does the court view this? Will they see that she is living a higher lifestyle than her income permits(if we cannot prove that she has a 2nd job)?

[tog]

The lawyer can subpoena the application from the school. We did that and found that she had applied as if she had full custody and her entire application was denigrating to my SO, about how he left them and left her in financial ruin etc, and she and SS "were handling" it.

[Allure]

Matt,

We can ask for bank records? What if she only declares one bank?

DH and Lawyer want to depose her for sure and also the boyfriend because they believe that they are hiding her income for sure. I think instead of the boyfriend, they should depose the boyfriend's brother who is also a business partner.

DH does not agree to private schools. His reason is they had the children in private schools before and they were behind academically so they enrolled them to public school. His other reason is his job is not stable. His orders are year to year.

DH wrote SD School's Principal/Dean before SD started and told him he does not agree to it and sent a copy of divorce decree stating he has equal custody. The Dean wrote back stating that they do not get involved with civil suits and that DH will not be liable to pay for the tuition fee since he did not sign the contract. When DH asked him who signed the contract, he refused to divulge further information.

Problem now is visits of the kids are cut short because they are all in different school systems and vacation times are not the same. Fly time is 4 to 6 hrs. DH can only take off at the most 1 week at a time.

Are DH's reasons reasonable enough?

[Matt]

Where I live, it's routine to ask for bank records, credit card records - anything and everything.

If you ask - formally, in writing, of course - for all bank records for any bank she has used in the last five years, and she provides records for only one bank, and you know there is another account, you can probably ask again - make it clear that you believe there is another account, maybe even name the bank - and she can also be asked about that in depositions.

If she continues to hide the information, you can subpoena it.  If she refuses to comply with the subpoena, she can get in big trouble.

[tog]

This is exactly to the T what happened in the private school SS goes to. They protected stbxw even though she lied through the teeth to them. Contract law trumps Family law in our state.  They didn't care that she got him in behind my SO's back and it took meetings with lawyers to get them to comply.

Have his attorney subpoena school records.

[Allure]

Thank you all so much for your advise!

Do we ask for all the financial information before subpoena, during subpoena or after subpoena?

How much do lawyers usually charge for the deposition?

How much do lawyers charge to subpoena records?

Can we do the subpoena ourselves even if we have a lawyer(to cut down in costs)?

Or do we ask for above 1st in writing via email, cc to the Parenting Coordinator and if she does not comply, subpoena her financial records?

Or do we ask our lawyer to do discovery 1st or everything will be asked during the subpoena?

[Allure]

Forgot to write we did discovery before but only asked for W2 and pay stubs, not filed income tax and bank records.