The latest

[Manager32]

A quick recap for those of you who missed my last update. I've been involved with a girl that has some BPD traits. She has a long-term boyfriend that she's had a troubled relationship with, but was not ready to completely break it off with him. She and I got very close a few months back, had a falling out, and have begun getting close again recently, although it's only at the friend level right now.  She lost her job recently and I've been trying to be supportive and keep her spirits up. We went out on Saturday as a pick-me-up for her. Her bf couldn't get hold of her, went to her apt, found her phone, went through it, found a long string of text messages back and forth with some guy he'd never heard of (me), and dumped her. On to the latest:

She called on Sunday crying hysterically. The bf had told her he never wanted to see her or hear from her again.  Her mom and best friend of 20+ years were supporting the bf, because she had cheated on him and lied to him, and she felt very alone. I worked on calming her down and she asked if I'd come over, because she needed someone to be with her. I did and was pounce-hugged as soon as she answered the door.  She asked me to take her to dinner, and we had a really nice time with a lot of light and humorous conversation. She's been sick and still has a very bad cough, which worried me.

We returned to her place and immediately on entering, she had a bad coughing spell. After it ended, she burst into tears again and collapsed on her bed sobbing. I told her I wasn't going to leave her alone like this and that I'd sit with her for awhile.  I sat and softly rubbed her back as she basically cried herself to sleep.  After about an hour, she woke up and was surprised to see I was still there.  I asked if she was feeling better and she said "A little bit," so I asked if she was ready for me to go.  She asked me not to leave her by herself and pulled me down so that I was lying next to her, then rolled herself up in my arms and went to sleep. It was wonderful being close to her again in that way after so many weeks, and I fell asleep next to her quite warm and happy.

She was still upset the next morning, but was very honest and aware of where and how she needed to change.  She said this had all been a huge wake-up call for her, and that she wanted to get into therapy so she could learn how to act like an adult, make good decisions, be responsible, be less impulsive, stop hurting people, and take charge of her life.  She also wants to get involved with church again, and has made plans with a mutual friend to do so.  I told her I thought these were excellent ideas and that I'd support her in making changes.  She thanked me profusely during the morning, repeatedly telling me how great I was and how much she appreciated the things I'd done for her.  "I don't know how I'd have gotten through all of this without you," she said. "You've helped me more than anyone during all this ... .  even my own family. You don't know how much that means to me ... .  everything you've done. I just appreciate it so much, and I won't ever forget it. I promise."

We went to lunch the next day and she told me she had a job interview, which was great news, and she promised she'd let me know how it went as soon as it was over.  I didn't hear from her for several hours, so I texted her about the interview.  She said that it had gone very well and that she should hear something in the next few days.  I congratulated her and said I'd have to take her out to celebrate if she got the job.  She responded with, "Yeah, cuz [taking her out] worked out great for me last time."  She followed up with an apology a few minutes later saying she was in a bad mood.  I said that was ok, that I didn't want to cause any problems for her, and that maybe for now, she should decide when she wants to hang out with me, to make sure things went smoothly for her.  She thanked me for that and said "people are being hurtful and difficult."  I asked her what she meant, but received no reply.  From the sound of it, I assume family and friends were still mad about how she treated the bf and were possibly pushing her to try and reconcile with him.  I decided I'd give her some space at that point and let her come to me when she was ready.

I didn't hear from her again until yesterday evening, when she called.  She'd obviously been crying and asked for a favor.  A friend had given her some self help DVDs and she wanted to use my spare DVD player, since the ex-bf had taken his from her apt.  I said that was fine and offered to bring it to her.  She asked if I could meet her somewhere instead.  "[The ex-bf] said again today that there's zero chance that he will ever get back together with me, but I'm just really paranoid right now.  If there's anyone watching me, I don't want them to get the wrong idea or anything," she explained.  I agreed to meet her at some shops near her apt, which I did.  She looked very sad when she arrived to take the player.  I told her to hang in there and that I was there if she needed anything.  She smiled widely,thanked me, and left.

I'm not sure if the distancing she's doing is really because she's in denial about the end of her r/s, if it's her BPD traits coming out in reaction to our getting close again, or some of both.  Regardless, I know she's been through a ton of huge life changes in the last couple of weeks and probably needs some time to herself to process everything, so I'm giving her space right now. Hopefully, once she's had time to adjust, we can continue getting closer and, assuming the ex-bf is serious about their r/s being at an end, eventually move beyond the friends stage.  I suppose time will tell and I'll just have to be patient ... .  which I suck at.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[elemental]

She doesn't want anyone to get the wrong idea, but that isn't stopping her from triangulating you.

And she is indicating she is not certain her and her boyfriend are done and she would like to keep you pushed back while you encourage her to become emotionally relient on you.

there are a lot of people on these boards who have gotton sucked in by white knighting, also known as co-dependence.

Setting her aside for the time being... .  would you consider taking a closer look at your own self, what you are doing, why you are doing it... .  and wether the outcome is likely to enmesh you into co-dependence further or if there is a healthier approach to this situation for you.

What are your thoughts?

[waverider]

Agree with elemental here, you are in the danger zone for triangulation and splitting. Much of what you are told and the bf along with what her parents are told may not be quite as it is. You will be firmly planted in the role of rescuer, for now. This is part of the idealization period.

Do you seem to have unnaturally common interests?

In what way do you suspect she is possibly BPD?

If you know much about BPD, why do you want to even enter a relationship like this? You need to have a very firm and stable reason.

[Manager32]

Elemental: Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't see myself in rescuer mode in this situation.  I've treated her like I would any other friend who's going through a hard time.  I've been there for her when she needed it, but I'm not rushing in trying to fix things for her. If she's asked for specific help with something, I've helped if I could. If she's called sounding down or upset, I've reassured her. Is that codependence or being a good friend? Six of one, half dozen of the other? 

I've done a couple of unsolicited nice things for her. I hooked her up with a former co-worker who's a recruiting manager at a big firm out here who could help get her a job, but again, I'd have done that for any friend who became suddenly unemployed. I bought her lunch twice and took her out on Saturday. I did that because I'm romantically interested in her and wanted to spend some time with her. Again, maybe I'm being naive, but that doesn't sound like out of the ordinary behavior for a guy who's interested in a girl, to me.

Waverider: My T first suggested my girl may be borderline.  After hearing more about her throughout this journey with me, my T thinks the girl has some borderline traits, but doesn't think there are enough present or that they're anywhere close to severe enough for her to be classified as personality disordered. The T offers that knowing she's never counseled my friend and has only the things I've told her to base her opinions on.

We don't have unnaturally common interests.  That's one of several things that's never fit with BPD for her.  We have some common interests, but I knew that about her through her FB page even before we started getting close.  Many of her interests are way different from mine and that's one of the things I've enjoyed about her. She's opened me up to trying some things I wouldn't have otherwise. So no, I've never found myself to have been particularly mirrored by her.

Borderline s for me:

• The first thing she wanted to do when we started getting close was to tell me about all of her past relationships and to hear about all of mine.



• She's highly emotional and has been prescribed Paxil, for depression and to help stabilize her emotions.



• She admits she has a lot of issues, describes herself as impulsive, self-absorbed, bad at relationships, and having abandonment issues, and has jokingly referred to herself as "bat-$h!t crazy"



• She was emotionally and psychologically abused by her adopted father as a child and was raped as a teen



• She has memory issues that become much worse when she drinks



• She displayed silent treatment and passive aggression during the time we were on the outs with each other

I entertain the idea of a relationship with her because the good times have far outnumbered the bad.  She's a charming, funny, compassionate, and endearing person who has a silent strength about her, but can be incredibly vulnerable at the same time.  We have a great connection and seem to have a good understanding of each other. She challenges me, and I like that in a partner. She's also as close a match to my type, physically as I've ever come across, and she turns me on like no one else ever has.

I have very strong feelings for her and I can't deny that.

[waverider]

Elemental: Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't see myself in rescuer mode in this situation.  I've treated her like I would any other friend who's going through a hard time.  I've been there for her when she needed it, but I'm not rushing in trying to fix things for her. If she's asked for specific help with something, I've helped if I could. If she's called sounding down or upset, I've reassured her. Is that codependence or being a good friend? Six of one, half dozen of the other? 

Its not about you seeing yourself as a rescuer, that is the role a pwBPD assigns to a new partner. The "rescuer" themselves are normally oblivious to it and is just doing the good deeds they would do for anyone. It is not about your actions, it is about her interpretations of your actions, then feeding you scenarios to keep those interactions happening. Her need for a perceived rescuer if you like. Usually portraying everyone else is unfairly against her.

This comment

"I don't know how I'd have gotten through all of this without you," she said. "You've helped me more than anyone during all this ... .  even my own family. You don't know how much that means to me ... .  everything you've done. I just appreciate it so much, and I won't ever forget it. I promise."

How many people here have started a relationship with this almost exact comment, it is a classic opening declaration of your role as rescuer?

[coworkerfriend]

Manager - I could have written the last part of your post. I did not deny the strong feelings I have for my pwBPD.  Everything you wrote -I entertain the idea of a relationship with her because the good times have far outnumbered the bad.  She's a charming, funny, compassionate, and endearing person who has a silent strength about her, but can be incredibly vulnerable at the same time.  We have a great connection and seem to have a good understanding of each other. She challenges me, and I like that in a partner. She's also as close a match to my type, physically as I've ever come across, and she turns me on like no one else ever has.[/color] is exactly how I feel.

Waverider is absolutely right - I heard that comment about helping him more than anyone else has ever in his life more times than I can remember.

I was in my relationship for 3 years before I figured out he has been in therapy and dealing with his issues of BPD.  You are absolutely right, you need more patience than you ever knew existed within yourself to deal with the issues you get presented with.

I wish you well. 

[CodependentHusband]

Manager32,

   There are sides to this story that you may not have. I can tell by your descriptions of your interactions that she is pretty unstable. I'm quite certain that everything you have been told about the boyfriend was through the filter of a BPD devaluation. Trust me on this, there is much that you do not know about her r/s with the boyfriend. You may well think that you are the one person that's going to be different from all of her past boyfriends. It's not a reflection on YOU that makes me dubious of this, it's just the hard facts of the illness.

She SOUNDS earnest in what she tells you and how she communicates with you because she really does believe what she is telling you. The problem is that she WILL change. You need to be aware of this. It's not a matter of being nieve, it's a matter of truly understanding the illness. The boyfriend, I assure you, was the rescuer early in her relationship with her. She will NEVER admit that now, and especially not to you because you are someone to fall back on.

I'm not being judgemental by telling you this. We tell others here what likely lies ahead along our path to healing. I see me telling you this as nothing more than that. Please, take time to read the following link. If anything in the beginning stages strikes a chord with you, I encourage you to think about this situation some more, and in a much different way.

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

[Manager32]

Its not about you seeing yourself as a rescuer, that is the role a pwBPD assigns to a new partner. The "rescuer" themselves are normally oblivious to it and is just doing the good deeds they would do for anyone. It is not about your actions, it is about her interpretations of your actions, then feeding you scenarios to keep those interactions happening. Her need for a perceived rescuer if you like.

Understood.  My comments were aimed more at elemental's remarks about behaving codependantly.

Usually portraying everyone else is unfairly against her.

This is one thing she hasn't done.  She's said multiple times that this is all her fault and that her mom and friends are mad at her because of mistakes that she's made, and that they're largely justified in feeling the way they do.

"I don't know how I'd have gotten through all of this without you," she said. "You've helped me more than anyone during all this ... .  even my own family. You don't know how much that means to me ... .  everything you've done. I just appreciate it so much, and I won't ever forget it. I promise."

How many people here have started a relationship with this almost exact comment, it is a classic opening declaration of your role as rescuer?

In fairness, I am about the only person that's helped her since she lost her job, and I have done more for her than anyone, family included. I understand that's beside the point you were trying to make, but remember, my T pointed out that she has SOME borderline traits, but not nearly enough to be considered PD, in my T's opinion. She and I were involved in a much more romantic manner before and I never got rescuer rhetoric from her then. I have to consider that it's at least possible that her reaction is actually based on the fact that I am the only person who's stuck with her through this.

[Manager32]

You are absolutely right, you need more patience than you ever knew existed within yourself to deal with the issues you get presented with.

I wish you well.

Thank you, coworker.  This whole experience with her has taught me how to be more patient and less reactive.  I have that if nothing else comes of all of this.

[Manager32]

I'm quite certain that everything you have been told about the boyfriend was through the filter of a BPD devaluation. Trust me on this, there is much that you do not know about her r/s with the boyfriend

I've been able to verify at least some of what she's told me about him.  He is immature. He is irresponsible. He is unemployed and still living with his parents. They do see each other very infrequently.  Most of the other things she's told me fit quite well with these facts, but you're correct that there's likely much that I don't know.

Remember that, in so far as I know, this girl has SOME borderline traits, not BPD. I understand that this is just my T's opinion, having not actually examined the girl. I do trust my T's opinion though, as she has a lot of experience with borderlines.  Assuming that her analysis is correct, not every action or reaction of hers will follow the BPD blueprint.  Some will very much, some will to a degree, and some won't at all.

You may well think that you are the one person that's going to be different from all of her past boyfriends. It's not a reflection on YOU that makes me dubious of this, it's just the hard facts of the illness.

Certainly, I'm going to be different because I'm not any of them. I'm my own person. I go about things differently than her other SO's. That said, whether those differences will translate into a higher level of success, I have no idea.

[CodependentHusband]

To be clear, I am here to support you. Part of that sometimes includes providing you the absolute best information possible so that you won't be blindsided. Yes, we are all individuals, and pwBPD are individuals too, of course. That does not mean that there are not well-established patterns of behavior, as described in the link I provided to you earlier. Enough nons have described this pattern as being uncanny for a pwBPD. If you think it doesn't apply, then, yes. Maybe it's not BPD after all... .  Maybe it is Bipolar, which would entail a totally different type of treatment all together.

[Manager32]

I understand CH, and I hope I didn't come off sounding irritated.  I know everyone is here to help and I greatly appreciate it.

My T is fairly baffled by her and has said as much.  My T has a good deal of experience with borderlines and has said she appears to have some borderline traits, but that they don't seem to be numerous enough or severe enough for her to be considered BPD, and that a lot of her behavior would be considered well out of the norm for a borderline.  The T has mentioned Adult Attachment Disorder and PTSD as other possibilities, but says she doesn't really fit those, either. Right now, all the T is willing to say without having met with her is that she has some significant issues and that she recommends I proceed with caution and with my eyes wide open. My T said that a having a relationship with her would not be impossible, but it will require a lot of patience, understanding, and hard work.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

[waverider]

BPD can affect different people to different degrees, from mild to severe. It can also present itself more at times and less at others.

Now I know what I know, I can look back at friendships and relationships in the past and spot a few who definitely had a mild dose of it. Enough to frustrate you dealing with them but not enough to make your head explode.

It is good to be aware of the possibility and spot it in the good phase before it has time to flip into the bad. Using the tools early, rather than trying to dig yourself out of a whole will be far more successful.

Keep in mind your Ts opinions are only based what has gone through your filter first. There may be things that mean nothing to you but he would see as significant.

Either way you are doing the right thing and learning about this upfront. Which is the right thing to do both for you and her

[Manager32]

Thanks, Waverider.  I started seeing my T after we had the blow-up that led to our largely not speaking to each other for almost two months. When my T suggested BPD, I came here the next day and began working on understanding things, reading and studying the lessons, and learning how to use the tools.  It took me awhile to get a handle on things, but when I did, I noticed an improvement right away. I don't think she and I would ever have started getting close again if it hadn't been for what I learned here.  My T thinks so as well.

I'm hoping I've learned how to avoid making the same mistakes as last time, now that we're interacting on a regular basis again. So far, so good, for the most part.  I really think the whole thing with her BF would have blown us up completely before I came to this site.  We got through it largely unscathed and it even seemed to pull us closer initially, even though she's distancing some now. I'm still not sure if that has more to do with me or with her fantasy that she can somehow reel the ex back in. I'd assume the latter, since she still responds when I contact her, she's just not initiating right now unless she needs something specific.

Along those lines, I was worried about her and sent her a brief text today, asking if she was ok.  She answered, "No but I am about to walk into an interview ttyl." I wished her good luck and she sent a "thx" back. I've not heard back from her since, so I'm letting it go for now. When I know she's hurting like this, my natural inclination is to reach out and try to comfort her, but the lessons have helped me to understand that isn't always what she needs. It's about doing what's best for her and not what will make me feel better.  If I'm patient, I know she will eventually communicate her needs to me in some way. Until then, I'll let her sort it out and check in on her every so often.

Our mutual friend confirmed she's still coming to their bible study tonight, which I was pleased to hear. I asked our friend to make sure she was ok, because I was worried about her. The friend said they would and that they'd let me know how she was doing.  Our friend said that the group would shower a lot of love on her tonight, which I know she really needs right now.