Claim of denigration

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I received a letter from BPD/Nxh's L today, claims of denigration were discussed at the visit on the weekend.

":)D7 said words to the effect of "nana says she hates you and that you make her angry" and ":)S5 was talking about you and nana came up and said she didn't like you so could he please stop talking about you".

":)D7 also said 'mummy says that you're a really bad man' ".

Final para of the letter: "Clearly it is not acceptable for your client and members of her family to denigrate our client in the

presence and hearing on the children and we insist that your client and her family cease making

such comments in future. We put you on notice that if such behavior continues our client will have

no option but to seek the necessary redress. If an application to the Court is required, this letter will

be produced to the Court on the question of costs."

Should I answer his claims or wait until court (May 2013)? What necessary redress? How can I control what my mother says, at all, to anyone? She is not me! My mother literally shakes and cries when we have to go back to court. BPD/Nxh attacked (physically assaulted her in front of the judge) her in court, blamed the entire damage to the house on a comment from a phone call 3 years ago ("the kids are not here" and damaged her house twice in the middle of the night (rock through her bedroom window).  

I was thinking of sending this to my L, what do you think?

I do not accept BPD/Nxh's claims that my family or I have denigrated him in the presense of DD7 or DS5 now, or at any time over the past 7+ years.

My family and I respect that BPD/Nxh has made his own choices over the years, and do not harbour "hate" towards him as was reported.

The fear of BPD/Nxh, his temper and his actions remains with my parents, and my sisters and myself due to the extensive physical and emotional abuse and damage over the years. Fear is a lot harder to cover up and we are very careful to leave the room if there is something to discuss, never in earshot of the children.

In response to the children asking me why daddy broke the house, I take extreme care to say that daddy has done some bad things, but that he is not a bad man.

I think that BPD/Nxh is attempting to paint me black before the pending court case (there is nothing else for him to go on) and I am tired of BPD/Nxh threatening to hold things against me and make me answer to which he has fabricated entirely or misconstrued.

Isn't asking kids to stop talking about BPD/Nxh (not in the words described) a perfectly acceptable boundary?

What should I do? I have learnt to not react, do I legally need to?

[Forward2free]

I received a letter from BPD/Nxh's L today, claims of denigration were discussed at the visit on the weekend.

":)D7 said words to the effect of "nana says she hates you and that you make her angry" and ":)S5 was talking about you and nana came up and said she didn't like you so could he please stop talking about you".

":)D7 also said 'mummy says that you're a really bad man' ".

Final para of the letter: "Clearly it is not acceptable for your client and members of her family to denigrate our client in the

presence and hearing on the children and we insist that your client and her family cease making

such comments in future. We put you on notice that if such behavior continues our client will have

no option but to seek the necessary redress. If an application to the Court is required, this letter will

be produced to the Court on the question of costs."

Should I answer his claims or wait until court (May 2013)? What necessary redress? How can I control what my mother says, at all, to anyone? She is not me! My mother literally shakes and cries when we have to go back to court. BPD/Nxh attacked (physically assaulted her in front of the judge) her in court, blamed the entire damage to the house on a comment from a phone call 3 years ago ("the kids are not here" and damaged her house twice in the middle of the night (rock through her bedroom window).  

I was thinking of sending this to my L, what do you think?

I do not accept BPD/Nxh's claims that my family or I have denigrated him in the presense of DD7 or DS5 now, or at any time over the past 7+ years.

My family and I respect that BPD/Nxh has made his own choices over the years, and do not harbour "hate" towards him as was reported.

The fear of BPD/Nxh, his temper and his actions remains with my parents, and my sisters and myself due to the extensive physical and emotional abuse and damage over the years. Fear is a lot harder to cover up and we are very careful to leave the room if there is something to discuss, never in earshot of the children.

In response to the children asking me why daddy broke the house, I take extreme care to say that daddy has done some bad things, but that he is not a bad man.

I think that BPD/Nxh is attempting to paint me black before the pending court case (there is nothing else for him to go on) and I am tired of BPD/Nxh threatening to hold things against me and make me answer to which he has fabricated entirely or misconstrued.

Isn't asking kids to stop talking about BPD/Nxh (not in the words described) a perfectly acceptable boundary?

What should I do? I have learnt to not react, do I legally need to?

[Matt]

A legal aspect (nobody here can give you legal advice, but we can talk about it) and a "kid" aspect... .  

The legal part.  I would definitely discuss this with your lawyer.  Tell her exactly what happened.  Tell her the truth about what you say to the kids.  If the reality is that you have not said those things, be prepared for it to come up in court, and just say the truth.

A key is whether the kids might say something like that to an objective third party.  Is there a GAL (guardian ad litem) or any other neutral professional involved, who the kids  could talk to?

Be prepared for anything the other side could throw at you.  If it's false, make sure you say very clearly that it is false.  Your lawyer should be prepared to challenge them - do they have evidence or is this an unsupported accusation?  If it's an unsupported accusation, and you state that it's not true, that should be that - except the accuser's word should mean less.

The "kid" aspect... .  

I rarely mention my ex to the kids, and only for practical things.  I don't usually talk about her behavior, unless there is a very good reason to bring it up.  I think the less you talk about your ex the better.

I would never tell my kids, "She's a good person." or "She loves you."  It's up to her to show them that she's a good person and that she loves them.  Many adults who were raised by someone with BPD have big problems, because they were told "She's a good person and she loves you", so when the adult with BPD treated them badly, they thought it was their fault.

Acknowledge and validate the kids' perceptions and feelings about the other parent.  If they say, "I love my dad but he's really lazy.", acknowledge it and accept it - don't judge  their feelings or perceptions (unless it's clear they are not seeing things accurately).  Stay focused on each child, and her perceptions and feelings, not on how you see the other parent.

[Forward2free]

Thanks Matt, my extended family went away for a long weekend in Aus and had some time to reflect and talk about it.

My mother did say those things, but I did speak with her after the incident and also on receipt of the letter. She knows she shouldn't and has committed to trying not to.

I have never called BPD/Nxh a "Bad Man" and I am prepared to tell the truth on the stand. We have the first telephone Directions Hearing in about 2 weeks so if he brings it up then, we'll answer to it. However, since his last visit and before I received the letter, I did call him selfish and was upset in front of the kids when I found out he'd moved in to our suburb.

It's very unlike me and I do not speak of him at all in front of the children. I let the children talk about their visit and how it went, but although I don't like hearing about the details, it really doesn't bother me. I have removed myself from hate or love for him and it doesn't hurt. What hurts is how he tries to annoy or hurt me, and I keep those things very separate from the kids.

My L said that if he mentions it in the affadavit we'll use the opportunity to respond with the truth. She also sees it as a nuisance and power play.

We have a new family report at the end of Feb, kids were interviewed briefly by her last year but she thought they were too young to provide info. They do not have a GAL or children's lawyer. I would need to fund one for them privately and I cannot afford it. Aust gives children's lawyers freely to those who are on welfare, but no to me, I don't qualify due to my average earnings.

I hope to have the family report writer do an accurate evaluation on me and BPD/Nxh and review the supboened documents so that the inaccuracies of his information and his state of mind are taken into consideration.

My L said to prepare for overnight time, but I need to trust that the truth comes out the kids won't be placed at risk.

Does anyone think they can change? BPD/Nxh turns 43 this year, is there any hope that he'll be he'll learn from his mistakes and become a better parent and person?

[Matt]

Does anyone thing they can change? BPD/Nxh turns 43 this year, is there any hope that he'll be he'll learn from his mistakes and become a better parent and person?

They can definitely change, if they get the right kind of help.

A report a few years ago, by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical School, found that more than 80% of people with BPD who get the recommended treatment - usually DBT (dialectic behavior therapy) - and stay with it, after 5 years achieve "remission of major symptoms" (if I remember that phrase right).

I think that means that if you met that person five years later, you would not see the BPDish behaviors, any more than any of us might have a few dysfunctional behaviors.  I don't think professionals say "He's cured!", I think they say, "The behaviors are in remission."

But here's the bad news... .  

That 80% or higher success rate assumes that the person with BPD gets professional help, and that's not something anybody can decide for them.  Many of our members have tried to talk someone into getting help, and it doesn't work.  They have to come to the decision themselves.

So... .  unless you know that the other person is in treatment, it's best to expect that the behavior patterns you see will continue.

But take a step back for a minute... .  sorry if I'm dredging up stuff you've already talked about... .  but let me ask about the possibility of some overnight time with Dad.  How would that work, if it's recommended, and what causes you the most concern about it?

[Forward2free]

BPD/Nxh last had an overnight with the kids on 25/12/2008. It was Christmas day, he picked them up at midday and was to return them the next day. He had been acting out and had decided to stay at his brother's house with the kids. His brother had the beds made-up, kids were aged 1 and 3.

At 8:30 he called me “screaming” that he was bringing them back. I was at my parents house and didn't know where to or why. I called his brother, he didn't know, said BPD/Nxh had put the presents in the car and left with the kids. Over an hour later he turned up at our house (my parents and I split up to man all houses) and he dropped them off without saying one word to me. He was calm, walked them in, dropped off gifts and handed me his wedding ring and drove off. I didn't hear from him until the next day when he was on a rampage contacting my friends, family, colleagues and clients, threats to hurt me and the kids, my parents and more... .  

He hasn't had an overnight since or time more than 4 hours.

My biggest concern is his lack of anger management and to be honest, I don’t trust him. He used to go weeks without contacting the kids and when he was meant to have them, would always try to renegotiate or take them to my parents house. I don’t think he knows what the responsibility is like and what’s required. I am not sure he wants ‘normal’ dad time, just his version.

I am concerned that the kids will be their regular 5 and 7 year old selves (not just angels who adore the outings, junk food and gifts for 4 hours a fortnight) and will get hungry, grumpy, tired and angry if they are disciplined by their fun, cool dad.

If that happens and the kids get upset, I really don’t know how BPD/Nxh will react and it scares me so much. If he takes it personally, which he most likely will, how will he be able to separate himself from the hurt and be a good parent?

As far as I know, he was being treated for Bipolar and is not currently in treatment. He doesn’t accept his BPD/N diagnosis and is not getting any treatment for same.

He is a singer and works some nights and works 4 days per week selling cars. He nominated his mother as a baby sitter but has described to psychologists her BPD issues and the anger, verbal abuse, neglect, physical abuse and more that she used to do to him. Not an appropriate babysitter in my books.

He said he’d give up his singing, but it is the most important thing to him and I think he needs the attention and adoration and if he did give it up for the kids, I think he would resent them.

I know I am assuming a lot, but it is based on my 10+ years of experience in his life.

There are also current intervention orders in place and no communication between us at all. Everything goes through the lawyers. The kids have no contact with dad outside of their 4 hours a fortnight and he has never asked for telephone calls or more.

I don’t know how we could feasibly co parent, and I would not be willing to have any verbal communication with him in the future.

I can see an extension of time could be additional hours on the Sunday or additional hours mid week or on the Saturday during the day, but changeover is difficult and I would want a third party involved.

[Matt]

Sometimes it helps to set aside what you think won't work, and see if you can come up with what you think will work.

I say this, because in my case, every time we got to a difficult spot, it always seemed like it was up to me to put forward something that could work - a solution to whatever the difficult issue was.  I had to do that without agreeing to something I thought wouldn't work.  Takes some creativity... .  

In this case, for example, you have a valid concern, based on something that happened a few years ago, and also based on your experience with your ex, and on his diagnosed problems.

Some elements of a creative solution might be:

* Gradually go from very limited time, to some longer daytime hours, then to a single overnight, and then see how that goes before agreeing to anything more.

* If the diagnosis is official, maybe he should agree to regular treatment as a condition of more time with the kids.

* "Parenting coach" can mean a lot of things.  Surely some form of coaching could be available to him... .  ?

* Maybe even some mutual coaching - not so you would be alone with him, but so that a strong professional could listen and help find solutions.  (My BPD ex and I did that for a while and it helped with some very difficult issues.)

Not saying these are all good, just that maybe you can do some brainstorming and come up with some ideas you feel kinda OK about.

Maybe if you share all these issues with your lawyer, and give her some clear ideas of what you would be willing to agree to, she could work it out with the other side.

The reason I'm suggesting this is that if you can put forward something that will work, you won't be so stressed about what the court might decide.  If you wait and let the court decide, you take the risk that it could be something not so good - something that will really put the kids at risk.

[sanemom]

Does anyone thing they can change? BPD/Nxh turns 43 this year, is there any hope that he'll be he'll learn from his mistakes and become a better parent and person?

They can definitely change, if they get the right kind of help.

A report a few years ago, by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical School, found that more than 80% of people with BPD who get the recommended treatment - usually DBT (dialectic behavior therapy) - and stay with it, after 5 years achieve "remission of major symptoms" (if I remember that phrase right).

I think that means that if you met that person five years later, you would not see the BPDish behaviors, any more than any of us might have a few dysfunctional behaviors.  I don't think professionals say "He's cured!", I think they say, "The behaviors are in remission."

But here's the bad news... .  

That 80% or higher success rate assumes that the person with BPD gets professional help, and that's not something anybody can decide for them.  Many of our members have tried to talk someone into getting help, and it doesn't work.  They have to come to the decision themselves.

So... .  unless you know that the other person is in treatment, it's best to expect that the behavior patterns you see will continue.

But take a step back for a minute... .  sorry if I'm dredging up stuff you've already talked about... .  but let me ask about the possibility of some overnight time with Dad.  How would that work, if it's recommended, and what causes you the most concern about it?

That sounds like a great bit of research, Matt! 

I wonder what the percentage of people who DO get treatment when they have BPD.  It seems that the illness in itself creates so many barriers to treatment (not taking responsibility, projection, abandonment issues, etc.), it seems that most would have to have some other issue (e.g. depression) along with it to even consider treatment.

[Matt]

I wonder what the percentage of people who DO get treatment when they have BPD.  It seems that the illness in itself creates so many barriers to treatment (not taking responsibility, projection, abandonment issues, etc.), it seems that most would have to have some other issue (e.g. depression) along with it to even consider treatment.

Yeah, that's it exactly.  I don't know that %, but it seems to be very low - not many who have BPD are diagnosed, and not many who are diagnosed commit to treatment.

We know that not many who have BPD are diagnosed, because of some other studies that have samples random people and found that several % have BPD.  Multiplied by the number of adults in the US, it's far more than those who have been diagnosed.  So most who have the disorder haven't been diagnosed.

So to Kormilda's question - "Can they change?" - the answer is definitely yes.

But if someone isn't getting help - hasn't chosen to get help - then unfortunately the odds aren't very good that he will get the help he needs to change.

[Rose1]

DH had this discussion with a specialist BPD clinic in Ann Arbor MI many years ago - I believe the % who will actually agree to go to treatment is < 2%.

[sanemom]

DH had this discussion with a specialist BPD clinic in Ann Arbor MI many years ago - I believe the % who will actually agree to go to treatment is < 2%.

That is just depressing, isn't it? 

[Matt]

DH had this discussion with a specialist BPD clinic in Ann Arbor MI many years ago - I believe the % who will actually agree to go to treatment is < 2%.

That is just depressing, isn't it? 

Well it's sad for sure.

Most of us go through a phase - mine lasted more than ten years - where we know there's a problem - whether we know it's "BPD" or not - and we tell ourselves that, sooner or later, the person will want help.  My wife was very unhappy, and I believed that she would get help so she could be happier.

If it's BPD, as Rose's comment shows, it's very unlikely that they will get help.

So then we need to move forward and work on accepting that reality and figuring out how to deal with it.  And I certainly found that to be very depressing for a while.  Over time, you see it differently - you see that we do have options, and some of those options might work out better.

[Forward2free]

I just find it so sad for the kids.

I guess the disorder prevents them from seeing a problem because they so easily blame everyone else.

And, if they think it's everyone else's problem/s, it almost makes sense that they wouldn't seek help.

I think I realised that BPD/Nxh wouldn't ever get better many years ago, but I just kept hoping.

If <2% is right, it's a pretty good chance this status quo will continue. Sigh.