Belief they are unlovable

[tundraphile]

As time has gone one (1 year and counting) since I learned of BPD and realized my uBPDw exhibits many behaviors consistent with symptoms (my way of saying it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck but I'm not qualified to say it's a duck), I have worked on my stuff, on my failings, and on my maturity.  But that only goes so far and at some point you have to go to bed and actually interact with her.

All of the dysfunctional behaviors she displays are self-destructive.  She is a smart woman but ignores that intelligence with respect to our relationship and is destroying it.  The closer you get, the more likely to see and feel her wrath.  I understand what some call "the core wound of abandonment".  I think I understand the narcissism that is a prerequisite for BPD.  I understand that in many ways, they remain children emotionally.

Recently a phrase stuck out at me while reading about splitting couples that warranted further investigation.  It described a person as seeing themselves as unlovable.  

We all see ourselves with a skewed but persuasive mirror.  Some see themselves as perfect or nearly so, beautiful, or omnipotent.  Others believe themselves to be weak, hopeless, fat & ugly, or dumb.  It is a rare person who can look at themselves completely objectively and point out their own faults and then work to correct those items.  It takes a lifetime most likely.  Of course a BPD man-child or woman-child has little hope of looking objectively, their immature cognitive skills simply are not capable.  Especially with someone close to them whom they feel vulnerable.  But their own self-perception remains a very powerful frame of reference.  To alter this, even when it is obvious the reality does not match their perception, is extremely difficult and thus unlikely.  So a person subconsciously does things that reinforce that way they describe themselves.  Even very negative ones.

This has greatly helped me understand her bizarre and abusive behavior.  She sees herself as unlovable.  Given up for adoption at birth, staying in the hospital for the first seven weeks before being plopped down to two neglectful, selfish narcissistic parents.  :)ad was never home, usually at the latest fling's house, while mom ignored both kids and sat around feeling sorry for herself and taking her baggage out on both of them.  uBPDw marries young to get out of the house to a cheating, physically abusive clown that humiliates her and leaves her heartbroken.  Meets birth parents, BM displays strong BPD behavior herself, and BF is shallow, immoral moron who has fathered kids in several time zones.

So she (in her mind) is unlovable, even if she isn't capable of even understanding that is what she feels.  It is ingrained deeply into her personality.  This leads to many destructive outcomes if she were to describe them honestly:

1) I am unlovable so anyone I get romantically involved with will eventually leave me.  Probably at a moment when I am most vulnerable to them.  Better to leave or run them off first, and in the meantime demand every minute if their time be accounted for.

2) I am unlovable and anyone that is nice to me just wants something from me.  They are not to be trusted.  (Successful therapy requires trust with T, but the Catch22 is BPD trusts NO ONE in reality).

3) I am unlovable and every time my SO leaves he (me) must be cheating.  After all that is what every other man does I've known.

4) I am unlovable and hence any criticism of me is an attack, never done constructively in love.

5) I am unlovable and thus anyone doing something nice to me is a fool that should be thought less of for doing it.

6) I am unlovable so any man that wants to stay with me is obviously too weak to be on his own and just wants a companion.

7) I am unlovable and thus completely on my own.  I must ruthlessly control everyone and everything around me because no one would ever want to do anything I want because they love or even like me.  They do it because I make them.

8) I am unlovable, and the instant my child attempts to assert their independence as they mature it is an attack on my mothering skills and proof they will eventually leave me and hate me.  I must control every aspect of their life and enmesh them as much as possible while they are little to produce another generation of BPD.  (Aside: her birth mother lived at home until 50!)

9) I am unlovable so if I act horribly, who cares?  You cannot be less lovable than zero.  SO is weak and will never leave anyway (see #6 above).

10) No person will ever love me, and this leaves a hole in my soul no one will ever be able to fill.  So instead I will try to fill it with clothes, house knick-knacks, cars, or other addicitive behaviors meant to sooth the storm of emotions I constantly feel.

Sound familiar to anyone else?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[4on6]

"Sound familiar to anyone else?"

yes my uBPD acts this way/denies she does

& confesses some of these things to me then paints me

black & the cycle repeats over & over it's like the movie

"ground hog day" it's frustrating

[CodependentHusband]

Sounds pretty familiar, but, you know, understanding the thought processes only got me so far. The main value in this, to me at least, is to have even more compassion than I did before... .  I didn't think it was possible to have more compassion early on, but, I've surprised myself. I still struggle sometimes with the loneliness and lack of intimacy. That was always there, truth be known, but it was so overshadowed by the chaos. I used to hope that getting rid of the chaos would foster more intimacy... .  So far, no luck on that.

[losinghope97]

Great post tundraphile.

Couldn't agree more.  Your list of 10 'I am unlovable... ' thought processes for the BP are what I/we have lived and know to be true.  The inevitable catch 22 of 'I am unlovable' so if you love me you must be broken too (#5 in your list) is the one that is the hardest for me because it plays so closely to the devaluation phase.  A lot of painful memories attached to this phase of the cycle... .  

Thanks for the post.

[Wrongturn1]

Way to go Tundraphile, that’s a very insightful post.  I think you’ve captured many of the key foundations of the BPD worldview here. 

I’ve been thinking through your list trying to brainstorm ways that this information can help us “nons”, and what occurs to me is that maybe it can help us with validation/empathy for the BPD person.  Regardless of how skewed the BPD’s mindset may be, their perceptions are their reality, and it would be mighty painful to go through life feeling that way about yourself…and maybe the way they behave, however unhealthy or irrational, is the only rational way that a person could behave when living with that type of involuntary core “schema”…but then again, maybe I’m excusing too much bad behavior here…after all, I frequently impress upon our kids that while we cannot always control our emotions, we always have control over our behaviors. 

Anyhow, Tundraphile, just wondering - did you start individual therapy yet, and if so, how is that going?  Also, with spring coming soon, do you think your wife will start asking for a swimming pool again?

[tundraphile]

My employer switched health insurance at the end of the year which threw a bit of a wrench in counselling after I had a difficult period around Thanksgiving.  At that time I came to a painful realization about myself that while she is an immature, nasty child and that is on her, I allow her to act this way and that is on me.  For many years I enabled this behavior, even encouraged some of the unhealthy things she did to avoid bigger fits she might throw if denied.  (Example: she is very irresponsible with money, but so nasty when denied something she feels entitled to that in the past I have offered to take her shopping for other things.  It is like offering an addict a joint in the hopes they won't snort cocaine.)

It also has given me perspective.  I am finding it hard to go back to counselling, and I am the one who realizes there is a problem and that it must be addressed.  I have beat myself up for being weak and expecting her to do something I struggle with myself.

Mistakes have been made by me, so identifying and correcting these have been my focus the past few months.  In some ways I felt like I reset from 20+ years ago: the same (codependency) issues I "worked through" as a late teen apparently only went dormant.  Perhaps the day you think you have beaten something forever is the day you are most vulnerable.  Looking at yourself objectively is very difficult even for the healthiest of us, and I have a difficult time seeing her ever be able to do it.  But I continue to work on things and stand up for myself and D7 most of the time. 

This winter has gone by relatively peacefully, with only one mention of the pool.  I certainly don't bring it up, I expect when spring arrives another round of bullying regarding the matter.  I have resolved three conditions have to be met before our back yard is torn to pieces.  She feels both entitled to this luxury item, yet cannot begin to afford it given her salary and spending habits, and this means she needs me to buy it for her.  So she resents the loss of control, and hates me if I don't buy it, and loses respect and hates me if I do buy it.  She probably doubts my resolve and feels she can throw a big enough fit(s) and I will cave in.  She is not going to bully her way to a pool, but she might bully her way into a divorce. 

Anyway, the three conditions:

1) The cost has to come back to a realistic level.  I had initially agreed to $25-30k.  Current cost as specified are over $60k.  I would probably be satisfied with $40-45k.  I don't think it will ever happen though, because #2 & #3 will never be satisfied.  I'm not even approaching the pool companies again until #2 and #3 are resolved.

2) She has to finally show financial responsibility.  Nearly every month she is broke two weeks in, with me to pick up the slack.  She makes 30% of the money and is supposed to pay 20% of the bills.  In reality I pay for everything else and typically a few hundred more toward things like food and her cell phone which she is supposed to pay.  I simply cannot/will not committ to such a large illiquid purchase (you can sell a car, but not a pool in your back yard), without knowing she can be more responsible.  This really is a trust and control issue, I need reassurance that she won't behave for a few months to get the pool, then back to the mall and I'm stuck paying for the hole in the back yard and her filled closet.  She should have to pay 30% (her salary percentage), in reality she should have saved 30% of the purchase price before we commit.  I don't see that happening, ever.

3) I have to be convinced that we will remain together long enough to pay back the portion of the pool we finance.  It will pull equity out of the house.  In a divorce situation I will be stuck with the bills, and I assume I would get the house considering she cannot begin to pay for it.  Paying for the house and the extra pool payment would be a stretch.  She doesn't contribute much now, but what she does pay for would come out of any cushion I have as future single tundraphile.  On paper I could swing all of it, but another unknown would be how much child support I would have to pay.  The short conclusion is w/o a pool, the divorce is easier.  With a pool, the house would probably be sold.  Ironically not putting the pool in would be better for her in that case too.  She would leave with more money than if we financed the pool with home equity.  There is too much uncertainty for me to ever commit to the project. 

It occurs to me someone might read this and think my life(style) seems pretty good and I'm worrying about "first world" problems.  Please understand that this really is an issue about control, pure and simple.  Some BPD may control their spouse through suicide threats or passive-aggresive tactics that abuse their non's love for them in unhealthy ways.  In my case the issue of the moment is a stupid pool which I would never, ever consider buying given other current and future expenses.  My uBPDw is self-destructive, and I'm trying to prevent myself and D7 from being pulled down with her.

[tundraphile]

I also find that over the past year (see "travelling BPD episode" thread I started then) my feelings for her have changed.  No longer do I think of the good times and try to find ways to return to them, they were most likely an illusion with her anyway.  I have removed all expectations of her ever really improving.  

Something in me has changed over the past 12 months.  Without D7, I would be gone.  No question, even if it meant starting over financially.  But her welfare and the correct path to go forward is what I struggle with every single day.  You read of advice saying in effect "two happy homes are better than one unhappy".  These people have never dealt with a BPD.  There is no such thing as a happy home with them, I shudder to think what the little one will have to deal with by herself while at her mother's.  

So sue for sole custody they say?  Good luck as a man.  Unless your wife has tried to kill herself recently or is a documented active drug addict it simply isn't going to happen.  The legal system is not there for men in this instance.  I wonder what percentage of guys in my position fool themselves into thinking they will get sole only to find out the best they can hope for is 50/50?  And their 50% is spent trying to undo the abuse and damage of the mom's 50%.  If these guys could go back in time, what would they do differently?  Maybe think again about leaving an uncomfortable yet maintainable situation.  

You only really get one chance to raise your child, and while you undoubtedly make mistakes, avoiding the really big ones is important.  Leaving her to her mother's poison 180+ days per year is probably a big one.  I have seen her with my stepdaughter (now 25 and also BPD) and have seen what parental alienation looks like first hand.

So at the moment I am still in the marriage, because leaving now is probably worse for D7 than staying.  No crystal balls to tell how she would turn out if I stayed or left, but at least this way I see her every day and can somewhat mitigate the damage from her mother.

In my heart though, I am dead with respect to loving uBPDw.  I rarely tell her I love her, and feel it even less.  We have had sex twice in the past 12 months.  One time she stopped immediately after we started, the second time I wanted to stop but just finished to avoid any fight over it.  I feel so much resentment and anger toward her, and it is tough to feel compassion despite what I wrote yesterday.  She considers herself unlovable, and sadly due to her behavior she is right.  I am past being able to be sweet-talked and promises of future happiness fall on my deaf ears.  So I just slog through life waiting for the next fight, the next busines trip, the next pool she demands.  Whenever I do enjoy myself it is fleeting, it is time to go home and hear how terrible I am soon enough.  Living with her is a job I do to see my D7.

But hope for the future is not lost.  Eventually D7 will be D12 or D13 and attempt to assert her independence.  This is when uBPDw goes ballistic and doubles down on abuse, coincidentally this also about the time in my state where children have much more say which parent they live with in divorce.  While I would never condone or encourage abusive behavior, the last 15 years has shown me it is inevitable.

I wish my wife would have some sort of rock bottom moment where she realizes her dysfunction, but it isn't going to happen with the two of us around.

[CodependentHusband]

Ugggh! The pool. It's one of my dBPDw's "dreams" too. I'm also saying no for the foreseeable future. Maybe after the girls get in college. We will have a lot of debts paid off by then. We are in track at least, but she gets impulsive and brings it up every few weeks.

[Wrongturn1]

Wow, Tundraphile, that sounds like a really difficult situation.  I'll encourage you to stand firm on the swimming pool decision... .  throwing $60k and a pool into the BPD black hole won't solve anything. 

[LetItBe]

Great post, tundraphile!

Curious, how many of these items can we non's relate to, also?  What keeps us in RS's with people who can't reciprocate the love?  Hmm... .  

[itsnotmyfaultanymore]

Scarey... .  I think at one time or another I have heard (not is so many words) every single one of these from my uBPDw.

[coworkerfriend]

I have heard every single one of the ten list in one form or another.  Everytime I think he takes a step towards letting one of those thoughts go, something triggers it right back into its place.

[patientandclear]

My pwBPD has had a theme recently that I am "naive."  He doesn't say it in a mean or critical way, but it's persistent. When I ask why he thinks so, he doesn't have a good answer.  I think ... .  he thinks I'm naive because I love him.  See above listed reasons why anyone who loves him must be faulty.

[waverider]

To understand that you will never truly understand BPD thought processes, but rather that you just acknowledge they are real and exist is a big step.

That way you can concentrate on dealing with the consequences and "what to do's" rather than get bogged down in studying the origins, all you need is a working knowledge of the "why's".

Too much probing into the 'why's" will trigger the pwBPD's version of JADE. Which in their eyes means the best form of defense is attack.

[tundraphile]

To understand that you will never truly understand BPD thought processes, but rather that you just acknowledge they are real and exist is a big step.

That way you can concentrate on dealing with the consequences and "what to do's" rather than get bogged down in studying the origins, all you need is a working knowledge of the "why's".

Too much probing into the 'why's" will trigger the pwBPD's version of JADE. Which in their eyes means the best form of defense is attack.

I have to disagree with this in part.  Understanding how they came to be the way they are is an important step in accepting their deficiencies as poor spouses.  If you approach it as I do, that we have married people whose emotional development is stunted, there is a the very real possibility that we can come to understand why they do what they do better far better than they understand it about themselves.  Their base instincts are frankly wrong, in a stressful situation they should do the opposite of what their primal childish instinct is to do.  

Merely dealing with the behavior after it happens doesn't improve anything long-term in my experience, but works to defuse the fight temporarily.  It does nothing to address the cause of the conflict or reduce their simmering rage that will only come out at a later date.  And while I wouldn't consider a BPD spouse "the enemy", their mental illness certainly is the enemy to their and your happiness.  To defeat an enemy you have to understand it, and as you understand it you also learn how to think like them.    

As for my uBPDw, there will come a time when I tell her point blank that at her core she believes herself to be unlovable.  And while I am 100% confident she will JADE until the cows come home, it is also something she has never heard anyone ever say to her.  She will then have something to ponder previously never considered.  There are no magic words to cure anyone, and using SET techniques to get through today without ever trying to improve the future is just wasting your own life.  At some point you have to call a spade a spade and then let them prove your position as they vehemently oppose your point.

[tundraphile]

Spring is in the air, and as expected the pool demands started again today. 

Beating msyelf up, I didn't lower the boom on her and basically tell her it wasn't going to happen.  But I did tell her no way was I paying by myself when she couldn't keep her own budget (which I then have to make up) and that I wasn't paying what they wanted last year... .  period.

You worry about the intensity of their anger, and their impulsivity regarding stressful or unpleasant situations.  It holds you hostage when you think about the potential damage their immaturity can cause to your children, finances, and life in general.

Basically tonight, feeling pretty weak I didn't follow through on what I described earlier and only took half-steps.

[Rockylove]

[

Merely dealing with the behavior after it happens doesn't improve anything long-term in my experience, but works to defuse the fight temporarily.  It does nothing to address the cause of the conflict or reduce their simmering rage that will only come out at a later date.  And while I wouldn't consider a BPD spouse "the enemy", their mental illness certainly is the enemy to their and your happiness.  To defeat an enemy you have to understand it, and as you understand it you also learn how to think like them.    

I tend to agree with you on this one.  I find it very difficult to make changes in myself (the way I relate to him) when I'm uncertain of the reason I'm making the change.  Yes, he appears to display symptoms of BPD and there are tools and techniques to defuse the rages, etc., but in understanding WHERE the rage originates I am better able to discern whether it is something that is in his subconscious or just a repeated bad behavior that has been justified but never been challenged. 

So far, what I'm doing is working and I'm thankful.  Not that I believe it will make everything "right"~~just better for the two of us.

[Grey Kitty]

Basically tonight, feeling pretty weak I didn't follow through on what I described earlier and only took half-steps.

Well... .  you also said you weren't paying for it yourself.

And you told her that she couldn't keep to her budget. (Obvious, but still stated)

Both count for something. You are stronger than you realize.

Perhaps it is time to set some boundaries to protect yourself? Here are a couple ideas:

-- boundaries to protect yourself from rages/etc. when you choose not to pay for stuff she wants.

-- boundaries to protect yourself from her financial irresponsibility: Since you are bringing in most of the money you can unilaterally separate out more of your finances. Decide which bills you are willing to pay and which she has to pay. (For example, if she can't pay her cellphone bill, let her deal with those consequences, and let the service be shut off)

Yes this is hard to do. Yes, it results in more drama while she adjusts. But many of us have found that it does work. I've even found that my wife now is grateful for the boundaries I enforced which made her deal with her own crap instead of throwing it on me and not actually doing anything about it.

[Grey Kitty]

FYI, the bit about belief that one is unlovable... .  the original part of this thread. My wife was completely in that space, and has in varying degrees shifted out of that in the last few years, especially the last six months. The changes coming from that have been amazing, for both of us!

[Kennyble]

Wow, another vote here for having heard and seen all the same things in almost all the same ways. It really is a revelation that these traits seem so consistent.

Absolutely agree with Waverider's post tho that "To understand that you will never truly understand BPD thought processes, but rather that you just acknowledge they are real and exist is a big step.

That way you can concentrate on dealing with the consequences and "what to do's" rather than get bogged down in studying the origins, all you need is a working knowledge of the "why's".

Too much probing into the 'why's" will trigger the pwBPD's version of JADE. Which in their eyes means the best form of defense is attack."

I have already reconciled myself to not being able to understand the thoughts, but at least to wnow what to do and why it helps.

ps. Will anyone tell me what JADE is in this context?

[Rockylove]

Too much probing into the 'why's" will trigger the pwBPD's version of JADE. Which in their eyes means the best form of defense is attack."[/i][/glow]

I think what waverider is saying here is that they really don't have a good concept of the why and will take offense if we try telling them such.  It reminds me of the time my 1st husband asked my 2 year old daughter why she colored on the wall.  It seemed to me the most pointless question to ask a toddler~~she hadn't a clue why she just acted.

For me, understanding why my bf acts/reacts is relevant because the rages seem so disconnected, but the reality is the core feeling may (and often is) very connected.  An example would be the fear of abandonment... .  I couldn't see this as an issue at all from the conversations we'd had in the past~~he'd always spoken of silly childhood antics and a relatively "normal" childhood (although his parents were divorced), but he was displaying some strong signs (and some very weird outbursts) that I (at first) attributed to his lack of confidence in something he was doing, but there was an underlying message which led me to believe that fear of abandonment was a possibility.

When he opened the door to the conversation and told me of his father leaving one day (when he was 3 or 4 years old) and never returning and his mother's subsequent behavior, I was better able to see how my behavior had triggered that fear.  It gave me an awareness which under "normal" circumstances I'd not have thought twice about my independence and I'm now more able to reassure him that I'll be here.

I'm not sure I explained that very well, but hopefully you get my drift.

[Grey Kitty]

JADE - An acronym:

Do not Justify Argue Defend or Explain. Because when you do these things it ends up being invalidating, and makes the situation worse.

There is more about it in the Lessons here.