New twist International Divorce

[Jai Yen]

I see 2 options at this point:

1) Stay the course. She comes back to the US and gets served both the order of protection and divorce papers at the airport w/o her knowledge beforehand. I shore things up to prepare for her likely responses as best as I can. She's scheduled to come back early Feb.

2) Serve her in her home country. My L and I both email letters to her next week making it clear that the marriage has to end. We file here in (my hometown), hopefully establishing jurisdiction. We have her served in her home country if she decides not to come back in February. The process to get her served takes about 4 ~ 5 months. She would be served no later than June if she doesn't come back in February or March.

Advantages of serving her in her home country:

She has a support system

She is there should things go sideways for her mentally

She is not in a position where she feels totally betrayed by me which might put her in a better position to work things out (of course this is not certain but more likely than option 1)

Much less stressful for the kids and me (very important especially for the kids)

We both have time to determine valid options for the business - if possible with her condition

Disadvantages of serving her in her home country:

She retains an attorney locally - not sure if that's an issue or not - we must be certain about this

She has time to take other counter measures I have not thought of

Her country is under the Hague Convention so process serving from the US in her country is well established. I'm guessing if done properly there will be no problems with this. The only unknown I can see is if she files in her home country again me and retains an attorney there. Please consider other downsides to having her served in her home country and let me know.

[ForeverDad]

My thoughts... .  Concerns about her reactions - and overreactions - are noble but there's little you can do about how she reacts.  In effect, you're still bending over backwards even to the very end.  I'm just not sure it's worth it?  Nice idea but is it going to accomplish all that much?

That's why I think those how-she-feels/reacts aspects ought to have a little less priority.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not heartless, but at some point she has to stand on her own two feet or fall.

- She has a support system

- She is there should things go sideways for her mentally

If it works out that way, fine.  But otherwise, they should not be "the" deciding factors.  IMO

[Matt]

Whatever you do, have a plan that does not require any cooperation from her at all.

I'm not saying that she won't cooperate, but she might not.  If she finds a way to hurt you or add to your costs or stress, by doing nothing, or by doing something to make your path more difficult, it's very likely she will do that.

So choose a plan that you can carry through to completion without any cooperation from her at all.

[Jai Yen]

Thanks guys. I agree I must be prepared to move forward w/o her cooperation. The serving her in her own country could really backfire on me and it would require more waiting and stress on my part. I'm just considering every option as carefully as I can.

[Matt]

Thanks guys. I agree I must be prepared to move forward w/o her cooperation. The serving her in her own country could really backfire on me and it would require more waiting and stress on my part. I'm just considering every option as carefully as I can.

It is an unusual problem.  Posting it as its own thread, with this "international" title, may draw in some members with experience in similar situations.

Maybe you can step through each of these options with your attorney - like chess moves - and see how each is likely to play out, assuming no cooperation from the other party.

I agree with FD that you can't anticipate or control the other party's reactions.  If you have her served at the airport, she might freak out and do something destructive, and then you will feel very bad.  But if you have her served in her country of residence, she could freak out there too.  There's no way to know which approach will "cause" her to do what, because it's really not what you do that "causes" her behavior, it's the disorder, and that's pretty random.

[Forestaken]

Can you get an order to get exclusive use of the residence before she is served in her home country?

My L was in the process of getting a pendent lite order for my exclusive use of the residence.  The pendent lite was not finalized by a judge.  My s2bx was in her home country and was thinking about coming back to the US.  I kept stalling on the flight home.  She smelled something and when she learned she came back the next day!  (Clusterf-)

If yours is like mine, she will be back on your door step the minute she is served.  They are a nasty vindictive type.

Question: If she is served at the airport, where will she go, or is that just "her problem"?  In my opinion, the weaker their support the better for you.

Question 2: If she files in her home country, what would happen to you, kids, assets in the US?

[BentNotBroken]

Make sure you take a look at the worst possible outcomes for this on your business. How much access does she have to accounts, passwords, credit cards/lines of credit, suppliers, clients/client lists, databases, etc. If she goes totally ballistic and declares war on you, how can she attack? You need to tighten up those areas quickly. If she has access to a platinum card with a high or even no limit, how much damage can she do to you and your business? Does she have access to all of your big-fish clients? What if she calls them up with a sob story and claims you had an affair, stole all the money and left her penniless, and had her served? What if she calls them and says you molested the kids? Will your clients bail on you? Should you give them a heads up at the time or just before she is served?

I like the idea of having her served at the airport. If she loses it and gets violent, it should all be on security cam video. You will probably need the involvement of your atty to get a copy. Or you can hire a PI to work with the process server to get video of the service.

I had a business with my BPD ex for over ten years. I did almost all of the work, she stole all the money, and now is claiming that I never did anything to help, and drove her company into the ground. It is creating noise in my custody case that is costing me thousands. Complete fabrications, but other people believe her--she even believes herself because she is insane.

[Jai Yen]

My L is working on getting an order of protection for the kids and me. She would not be allowed to stay at our house. I'm having the locks changed Monday. The kids will stay with friends for a few days after she arrives (if the service in her country thing is a no go). I'll have a friend stay with me as a witness if/when she comes to the house. My L and I will prepare letters for her letting her know she can visit the kids supervised and in public and suggest she retain an attorney. Again hard to guess how she'll behave. Likely she'll get drunk and complain to her sis and mom via Skype. Maybe she'll simple go home after a day or two. I don't know. I asked my L what to do when she initiates contact. The order will include no phone communication with me. Email will still be available. There's a written record that way.

I followed my L's instructions in terms of bank accounts and took her off our credit cards. I was the primary borrower on all but one - that one I simply closed. It's unlikely she'll miss with our clients... .  She would loss face in the process and look really, really bad. Could happen I suppose but I'm ready to walk away from the business if she and I can't come to terms. The business really relies on both of us equally. Might be best long term. That will suck financial for the kids and me for a while. We have assets and rental income but I need the business income to make ends meet. I can hold out for a while but it'll sting. I've been self-employed for well over 20 years. I'm considering both a starting a new business or getting a job of some sort. Anyway, first things first. I need out of this marriage!

Again, the getting her served in her home country idea is not only to make it "easier" on her but to avoid the possibility of her ending up in the hospital here and me having to deal with it at some level - insurance etc... .  Also, it'd be easier on the kids. Even if we decided to server her there my L and I would have to inform her so the element of surprise would no longer be available. The reason why we'd inform her is so she could decide not to come. Also, she might decide to come anyway. The more I study her country's missed up family court system the less I like the potential of her somehow counter suing me there. A jurisdiction issue could result- then I'd potential have to fight her in the courts in her country too. That would suck big time!

[Matt]

Do you have a good competitor, or another company in a similar type of business?

If so, could your company be sold to them, and then you work for them?

Or could you close your company, and go to work for a competitor for awhile?

That might be refreshing for a while - a steady income and benefits without the complication of running the business.

[BentNotBroken]

Do you have a good competitor, or another company in a similar type of business?

If so, could your company be sold to them, and then you work for them?

Or could you close your company, and go to work for a competitor for awhile?

That might be refreshing for a while - a steady income and benefits without the complication of running the business.

Now that is playing chess! My hat is off to you, sir!

[BentNotBroken]

I would make the supervised location a police station, just to be on the safe side. If it is a Wendy's with your elderly aunt supervising, bad things could happen.

My new #1 rule, as learned through hard experience: NEVER underestimate BPDex.

She will cut off her own arm if she thinks feels she can make it look like I did it to her.

Fixed typo.

My sense of humor is starting to return, thank you bpdfamily.com!

[Jai Yen]

My new #1 rule, as learned through hard experience: NEVER underestimate BPDex.

This women hit her own mother after I simply stopped phone/Skype contact with her because she was sucking me dry emotionally after a 5 hour rant. I simply said I need you to get some rest (get over your hang over is what I was thinking) and that I'd contact her in 24 hours. That's it. She freaked. Got drunk. Took pills. Hit mother. Mother called the police. Her sister reported this to me via email- in detail. My L has the email. Next day stbx took a bottle of sleeping pills in front of sister via Skype. Sister called it in. She was taken to the hospital. Disturbing.

Rule #1 is right on! I'm there with proceeding with extreme caution. Another reason why I wouldn't mind serving her over there if it's possible w/o costing a fortune and/or causing other unintended consequences. That way I can just hear about her behavior from a distance and not have to deal with it. My L is researching the possibility as we prepare for plan A - serving her here.

As for the business- I have some ideas of how to operate w/o her I'm exploring... .  

[BentNotBroken]

With what you just described, how in the world would it be good business sense to stay in business with someone that is that unstable? Definitely explore other options right away.

[Rose1]

I would be most concerned that she gets in first in japan and serves you with a non negotiable problem that you need to live with. Better you be in charge imo.

[Jai Yen]

With what you just described, how in the world would it be good business sense to stay in business with someone that is that unstable? Definitely explore other options right away.

The amazing thing is I've been doing business with her for 20 years! Crazy! I've had to not only manage the complexities of business in both countries but I have to "walk on eggshells" all these years and basically manage her too. Not to mention raising the kids pretty much by my self. You can understand why once my kids are off to college in the next 2 years I want to spend part of my time in Thailand. I need to get away. I need a totally new perspective on life.

I would be most concerned that she gets in first in japan and serves you with a non negotiable problem that you need to live with. Better you be in charge imo.

This I must avoid at all costs. I'm approaching this as strategically as humanly possible.

Late December and early January I told her by email and Skype that it was time for us to divorce and laid it out in a way that colored her in a good light. She agree at first - divorce and maintain the business and work on asset division. I though "yes!" and then as Matt and FD suggested she totally flip-flopped. I had to change my strategy to get her to come back to get served. I told her we need to seek counseling to work on our communication skills with each other when she's back. I've done my best to avoid the blame game she's so fond of.

[Matt]

If you want to avoid the possibility that she might file first, in her country, it seems that time is critical.

Whether you have her served in her country, or in the US, you need to file very soon.

What keeps you from filing right now - Monday?  If you do that, then you'll be sure to file before she does.  And then on Tuesday you can think about the best place and time to have her served.

[Jai Yen]

Matt, my L is filing Monday. To your knowledge does filing establish jurisdiction or does she also need to be served to establish jurisdiction?

[GaGrl]

I don't think serving has anything to do with jurisdiction.  You are both legal residents of the country in which the filing is taking place, and you can prove that via tax returns, utlity bills, voting cards, etc. etc. etc.

In our state, I filed -- after which my then-husband was served what here is called the "Petition for Divorce."

[Jai Yen]

Seems that's the case Gagrl. Our home is here, I live here, our kids live here, we filed taxes jointly here, we own rental properties here etc... .  Jurisdiction should not be an issue for our local courts. Problem is stbx was only in the US for 7 weeks in 2012 and we'ved lived apart since 2008 - the main reason the marriage has lasted this long. She still has her alien residency card but she is a Japanese citizen and has a job and owns real estate in her name only there (I know how did that happen?)... .  Anyway, she's scheduled to be back here in just over a week and I want to make sure I give myself every legal advantage I can... .  

[Matt]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think filing first establishes jurisdiction, usually.

Surely your lawyer can answer that so you'll know for sure.

My point was that since you have already told her you plan to file, you are at some risk that she might file first, and that might make things more complicated.

[GaGrl]

There are several similarities here to my DH's situation when he finally divorced The Dark Princess.  DH had built a house for her family in Thailand many years before. Over the years TDP added two more houses and it became a gated family complex. Thai property law prevents any non-Thais holding real estate ownership, so DH didn't even bring up his financial contribution to her Thai holdings. (What a firestorm THAT would have started!)  It took 9 months from beginning to end to work her through a process that was in fact favorable to her, but it turned out OK in the end. Every now and then she brings up something indicating she's resentful of the divorce but it'snot rational or logical - it's justresentment on her part of how her life looks now compared to ours.

She has never obtained Thai citizenship for their children so nothing can be inherited by them.It will end up a Thai legal fight between her siblings.

[Forestaken]

I agree with Matt. During your marriage, where did you mostly reside and where did you last reside together?

[Jai Yen]

I found out from my L today that servering her in her country would be very dangerous. My L contacted an L that specializes in international law in NYC. My L explained my case to this person. He said he would not take this case. Too complicated. Could drag on for a long time. I must get her served here as originally planned. Sucks because I would rather have her at her home than here when she freaks out.

She'll be back one week from today. I've let the kids know. I told them clearly your mother will be receive the divorce papers and an order of protection in the airport. The kids will be out-of-town for 48 hours after she arrives on a school function which is good. My kids were disappointed and worried when we talked about this. I explained that unfortunately with their mother's condition if I let her stay with us she could really hurt me and/or herself. I could even go to jail if things got too out of hand. The order of protection will allow the kids to see her in a public place under their terms not hers. They want to see her of course. My L and I will both provide her a letter. My L will encourage her to retain an attorney. She may or may not it's hard to say. If she doesn't at least the process can proceed w/o her. Next week is going to be very stressful. I'll hope for the best and prepare for the worst... .  

[Matt]

Well at least you know now what the options are, and see that serving her in the US is needed.

Does she have any friends or even business acquaintances, who might meet her at the airport, so they could help if she loses control?  It would be awkward to tell someone what is going to happen - they might tell her and that could cause problems - but maybe while she's in the air, you could reach out to someone, and let them know a little about what is happening, and just ask if they would be a shoulder for her to cry on.

Also, you might want to find out exactly how it will work when she is served.  The server won't be able to go to the gate, so maybe he'll have her picture, and be waiting for her when she comes out of the gate area into the main concourse, walking by the metal detectors.  If she then got a call from a friend, offering to pick her up at the curb, maybe that would work out... .  

There's also a risk the kids could tell her now, before she travels.  Do they often talk with her?  Did you make clear to them that it would be best not to tell her that?  (Usually, I try not to tell my kids, ":)on't tell your mom... .  ", but this is a special situation.)

Will you be able to get some support for yourself too - maybe family or friends who can hang out and help you keep your stress manageable?

[livednlearned]

I remember so well the dread I felt the weeks before I was preparing to leave N/BPDx. It really wears you out. Hang in there, you're doing a really good job of thinking through all the possibilities and preparing as much as you can.

I had arranged to leave N/BPDx while he was out of town at a conference, but things blew up a week before and I had to leave a bit earlier than expected. Fortunately, I had done the same kind of thorough planning you have done, and there were many things already in place to help with the transition. It was rough, but it also went better than I anticipated when the first plan started to unravel. My ex has a lot of narcissism, and it sounds like your ex does try to keep up appearances. I think that can help a lot, even though it obviously doesn't help completely.

Matt raised a good point about how she will be served -- what if the server cannot find her at the airport? Another thing to think about -- if she does try to harm herself, and she is hospitalized, will you go to her? Is there a legal obligation to be there in person?

I'm also wondering about your kids. Are they familiar with her pattern of attempting to harm herself, and if so, do they have a counselor they can talk to if they are suddenly pulled into the drama?

[Jai Yen]

I live in a small town. Our airport has only one exit point from the gate area. The process server shouldn't have any difficulty identifying her.

Another thing to think about -- if she does try to harm herself, and she is hospitalized, will you go to her? Is there a legal obligation to be there in person?

I'm not sure about this. I'll definitely check with my L.

I'm also wondering about your kids. Are they familiar with her pattern of attempting to harm herself, and if so, do they have a counselor they can talk to if they are suddenly pulled into the drama?

They are all too familiar with her patterns of behavior. I've already offered them the opportunity to visit a T - even if things go OK. They're open to. They've started to talk to friends and others who've lived through divorce in the family. My parents, their grandparents, are a tremendous support as well. Nice to have good parents.

Does she have any friends or even business acquaintances, who might meet her at the airport, so they could help if she loses control?  It would be awkward to tell someone what is going to happen - they might tell her and that could cause problems - but maybe while she's in the air, you could reach out to someone, and let them know a little about what is happening, and just ask if they would be a shoulder for her to cry on.

This is a very good idea. Definitely to my advantage to get her a bit of support. I have someone in mind that can help her understand the paper work (former attorney she knows well too) and let her know that it's best for her to retain her own L etc... .  My L told me that she will only communicate with my stbx by email and that it really is best if stbx has her own attorney that can communicate with my L.

[Jai Yen]

Today I asked an old mutual friend if he'd be willing to greet my stbx in airport. He w/o hesitation said yes! Stbx respects this person and he is a former attorney who's worked on family law cases. He'll be able to explain the order of protection and dissolution of marriage papers to her clearly and in no uncertain terms. Also, he'll be able to recommend that she gets an attorney. He also knows all the attorneys in our town so he'll hopefully steer her toward a reasonable one.

My L made it clear that it is much, much better if she has an attorney. Stbx needs her own attorney to communicate with my attorney. Neither my L nor I will communicate verbally with stbx - email only.

I changed the locks on my house today. I started writing a letter to my stbx that will be presented to her by the process server. The letter will be clear and to the point. It will basically let her know that I realized that I had to proceed with the divorce as our marriage is beyond repair and I cause her to become very angry which is harmful to our kids and me and is no longer acceptable. I will give her the phone number of several people that she knows locally that she can call. The rationale for that is she'll have people to help keep her stable and to help her understand that she should get an L of her own. The letter will simple and to the point. Also, it will be written with the understanding that her L (should she choose to get one) will read it and that a judge could read it too.

I'll also describe how ending the business will negatively affect us. I'll make it clear that I am willing to continue the business. We can work out the terms of continuation after she gets an L. My L made it clear in the dissolution of marriage papers and parenting plan that the kids and I rely on income from the business to make ends meet. If the business fails or is damaged by the divorce she will be on the line for more money to help the kids etc. This will hopefully be a motivating factor for stbx. I have some leverage but she has steady employment income which I do not have currently. If the business fails I have income from our rental properties but it is not enough to cover our monthly expenses. I'll have to sell assets before year end to make ends meet should the business fail. I feel like I'm playing strategic chess. One move at a time... .  

[Matt]

This sounds like a very good plan to me!

[ForeverDad]

Make sure any letter you write is reviewed by your attorney.  It needs to keep emotions out of it - and blaming too.  I know you're careful not to blame her, but beware you don't give her any basis to blame you.  An example is "I cause her to become very angry".  Sorry, don't put that in writing, it could be self-sabotaging and gifting her potential leverage.  Too risky to accept blame.  Don't provide even an inch of room for your statements to be used against you.  Maybe you can blame the situation, the relationship, the distance or other intangibles, but don't blame people, not even yourself.  You know and we know that just by your existence you can cause her to become triggered and angry.  But don't assume the legal arena of court will understand where you're coming from.  KISS - Keep it super simple.

IMO

[Jai Yen]

Excellent advice FD. I'll reword that phrase in my letter. And, yes my attorney will definitely review it.