That line between truth and PA

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I feel like I am constantly questioning myself to make sure we are not saying too much to the kids. 

Example 1:

DD9 was 2 1/2 years old when I left her bipolar dad.  She has just recently began asking me questions about it.  Up until now, my message to her has been simply that his depression caused the divorce.  But now she is asking more... .  why would I just leave him if he was depressed?  The truth is he started drinking, he was having affairs, stealing from me and the kids, and had a couple of violent outbursts with me.  I told her that when people are depressed, they sometimes will drink to make the depression go away but it doesn't really work, and then the drinking makes them do things that can be hurtful to people.  That seemed to work for now, and I think I said it in a way where she would not get mad at him for drinking, but you never know... .  

Example 2:

The skids went into our closet and accidentally found an unloaded gun that DH had been keeping (it was his when he was a kid) to surprise DSS14 on his upcoming birthday.  They didn't tell DH they found it, but they told their BPD mom.  You can imagine the accusations and drama that ensued from BPD mom.  DH pulled the kids aside.  He explained that he would have been angry if he had known that they went into our closet, but now he is angry AND hurt.  He is hurt because they didn't tell him, but they told their mom.  He explained how a few years ago they were keeping secrets from him left and right (at BPD mom's request), and although they were not trying to hurt him, it hurt.  He told them that he had hoped they were past the secret-keeping stage with him.  He told him that now that their mom knows about the gun, he is being accused of a crime, and he has to go through lawyers.  He explained that we don't usually like to tell them when these kinds of things happen because we want to protect them, but they needed to know this time.  He also told them that he was planning to talk with their mom about the gun in the future, but this was not how he had wanted it to come up, and he asked them not to tell her what the gun was for so he could have that "adult conversation with her at the right time."  I don't like telling them to keep a secret from their mom, but I understand why.  Then I wonder how much is too much to tell them.  Their dad told them not to worry--it would be ok.  The conversation was all calm and their were big hugs and wrestling at the end.

I think that is it--on one hand, you want them to understand that their words have power, and I do think that they understand at some level that their mom blows things out of proportion.  On the other hand, we struggle with how much we DO tell them.  The boys are teens so we tell them more than we would tell my 9 year old.  The boys also hear way more from their mom than from us, but that doesn't mean that we want to match their mom either.  But how much is too much?

[sanemom]

I feel like I am constantly questioning myself to make sure we are not saying too much to the kids. 

Example 1:

DD9 was 2 1/2 years old when I left her bipolar dad.  She has just recently began asking me questions about it.  Up until now, my message to her has been simply that his depression caused the divorce.  But now she is asking more... .  why would I just leave him if he was depressed?  The truth is he started drinking, he was having affairs, stealing from me and the kids, and had a couple of violent outbursts with me.  I told her that when people are depressed, they sometimes will drink to make the depression go away but it doesn't really work, and then the drinking makes them do things that can be hurtful to people.  That seemed to work for now, and I think I said it in a way where she would not get mad at him for drinking, but you never know... .  

Example 2:

The skids went into our closet and accidentally found an unloaded gun that DH had been keeping (it was his when he was a kid) to surprise DSS14 on his upcoming birthday.  They didn't tell DH they found it, but they told their BPD mom.  You can imagine the accusations and drama that ensued from BPD mom.  DH pulled the kids aside.  He explained that he would have been angry if he had known that they went into our closet, but now he is angry AND hurt.  He is hurt because they didn't tell him, but they told their mom.  He explained how a few years ago they were keeping secrets from him left and right (at BPD mom's request), and although they were not trying to hurt him, it hurt.  He told them that he had hoped they were past the secret-keeping stage with him.  He told him that now that their mom knows about the gun, he is being accused of a crime, and he has to go through lawyers.  He explained that we don't usually like to tell them when these kinds of things happen because we want to protect them, but they needed to know this time.  He also told them that he was planning to talk with their mom about the gun in the future, but this was not how he had wanted it to come up, and he asked them not to tell her what the gun was for so he could have that "adult conversation with her at the right time."  I don't like telling them to keep a secret from their mom, but I understand why.  Then I wonder how much is too much to tell them.  Their dad told them not to worry--it would be ok.  The conversation was all calm and their were big hugs and wrestling at the end.

I think that is it--on one hand, you want them to understand that their words have power, and I do think that they understand at some level that their mom blows things out of proportion.  On the other hand, we struggle with how much we DO tell them.  The boys are teens so we tell them more than we would tell my 9 year old.  The boys also hear way more from their mom than from us, but that doesn't mean that we want to match their mom either.  But how much is too much?

[BentNotBroken]

I am following this thread, because these questions are coming up for me in the future. I know that for some things, the truthful, precise answer is harmful to the kids. Possibly, the truthful, imprecise answer of "I can't answer that question for you until you are older and your mother also shouldn't answer it until you are older" might work.

I plan on asking my atty on some of these things to keep myself out of legal trouble. My ex would cut off her own arm if she felt she could blame it on me, so I have to be careful.

[Matt]

Yeah, one aspect of this is the legal one - what could you say that the court would view positively or negatively?

Another aspect is our motives - asking ourselves, "What will be gained by telling this to the child?"  Will it be helpful to the child?  Helpful to me?  Or am I just "venting"?

Venting may be necessary to keep our sanity, but we need to find adults we can talk with, not kids to bear our burdens.

When my kids were smaller, I usually found that if I thought about it in advance - sometimes I consulted with their counselor - and boiled it down to the simplest possible message that I believed was needed, and then left it up to the child to ask more - they would almost never ask anything.

When our divorce was final, for example, our counselor told me - in front of my ex - that I should tell the kids.  So that night, I did.  "Momma and I met with the judge today, and he approved our divorce, so now it's final."  "Will anything be different for us?"  (After 2 years of separation.)  "Nope.  Just like it is."  And that was that - a big deal to me, but pretty meaningless to the kids.

Talking about the other parent, one way to do it is to talk about the behavior, not the person.

[tog]

It's a fine line, and we have walked it quite a bit... .  and fallen off on the wrong side a few times.  We do it best when we make it about SS's behavior and not hers... .  so-talking to him about lying to his therapist and GAL and the consequences of that without stating that we know he is doing it because she is pressuring him. Or correcting misinformation without attacking her character ("Mom is mistaken about that, when you were younger we had a great relationship and we did lots of fun stuff together!" etc.

It's hard to do. My SO has made some big mistakes in this area BUT, we also think talking to him has helped him come of the PA. Before we talked to him, he didn't seem to think about the possible consequences to my SO and to their relationship, he just blindly went along with her.

Be prepared though... .  the court still holds to the idea that you should say NOTHING, so we've had to do it in violation of their orders.