Please indulge me... I need advice once again

[griz]

Today I went to see my T, who I was not so happy with last week.  I think she knew that I was upset with her because today she took a completely different approach.  Anyway I started to explain to her that DD seemed to be doing ok and that I noticed last night when I went to take a shower there seemed to be some blood drops on the bathroom floor.  I was going to bring it up this morning to DD when we were on our way to work/school but she didn't go today so I hadn't had the chance.  While I was at work DD's bf texted me to tell me that he was going over to see DD because she called him and told him she was feeling really sad and that she had been cutting alot lately.  When I told this to T she immediately went into, what am I waiting for I should go home and put her in the car and take her to the ER and make them admit her.  She kept saying things like, are you waiting for it to be too late.  I explained to her that when we were in DBT the therapist told me that cutting was not a suicidal behavior and that the one time we had taken DD to the ER they sent her home saying she was not a threat to herself or anyone around her.  I told the T that I had decided to try to take a strong stand with DD and tell her she must go back to therapy and she disagreed saying that what I should be doing is putting her in the care of the hospital. That I will never be able to live with if something happens to her and I didn't do what "any normal person would do".  Gosh am I really that screwed up.

On the way home I thought about it because I left there saying that I would do that and the more I thought about it the more it didn't seem right.  When I came home DD was with her bf and she seemed ok.  I haven't brought up the therapy yet because I want to do it when we are alone and not with bf here.  But now I am haunted with thinking that if for some reason something happens to DD it will be my fault for not doing the right thing. When dh came home I told him what we talked about in therapy and he felt that the hospital was not the right thing to do.

I need your guidance.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[trainwreck4]

Griz, from everyone I have had contact with (meaning only the healthcare professionals) cutting is a completely separate issue. This includes three psychiatrists, several therapists, and quite a few social workers... .    Does she need medical attention for the cutting as far as stitches go?  I had a family member ask me if I was waiting for her to cut her throat.  It is supposed to be a pain release for them, not to be confused with suicidal intentions.  You are her mom and if I remember correctly you have taken her to the hospital before. You as her mother know when you are in a crisis situation as opposed to what has become our norm. Correct me if I am wrong?  It is really distressing to get these alarming instructions from a person you trust isn't it?  I actually just asked my BPDd15 and she said they are completely unrelated.  That is my two cents, if that helps... .  

[peaceplease]

griz,

I don't think the hospital would really be much help.  All an acute hospitalization will do is stabilize a suicdal patient.  If she seemed okay and would not admit to any SI, they would not admit her anyways.

I think that I would be thinking about searching for a new T.  You are second guessing yourself.  You are not screwed up!  


 

peaceplease

[lbjnltx]

Hi griz,

I must say that the others are giving you good information.

Si is a parasuicidal gesture... .  not a life threatening situation.  It is a low level coping skill that needs to be replaced with higher level coping skills.

While it is true that some people engage in si to extremes that can be life threatening it is usually not on purpose... .  accidentally cutting too deep.

Si is a scary thing for us moms and really causes us to stress... .  that doesn't make it an ER situation.

It doesn't appear that your T is very welled versed in BPD or how to counsel parents to handle/cope with the fallout. 

For your own peace of mind and well being of your family... .  do you have a safety plan?  Do you have clarity on what consitutes an emergency?  What you will do should an emergency occur?

Here is a workshop on suicidal threats/gestures/attempts:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0

The best defense to confusion is knowledge.  Do you have any questions about si? 

Here is a link to a thread where it is discussed.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70493.0


 

lbj

[qcarolr]

IMHO, when seeing a particular T creates more confusion and distress with my parenting in an onging way, I look for a new T. I have only had to do this once. In that case, after a joint session with my DD 23 at the time, she asked what was the worst case scenario. At the time it was DD going to Ca to be with toxic, addicted exbf and being abandoned or killing herself. This T said, well you would all be better off if that happened, especially my gd age 4 at the time. It still took me 2 months to terminate this r/s.

My insight in looking back was that this triggered too much in my T about her own safety and her young children in some way. That she just could not put herself in my shoes with the extreme blaming and rage in that one joint session. And this is the T that gave first suggeted BPD and gave me the book "I hate you , don't leave me" to read. I had never heard of BPD, and DD wasn't dx for another few months after that (court ordered evluation in gs custody case - DD would never have voluntarily been tested).

We need to trust our T to get benefit. Do you trust your T?

qcr  

[momontherun]

I agree with the others - all have given wonderful advice. Adding my 2 cents, I have a difficult time with my dd15's si. It brings me a great sadness however, like most on here unless she is out of control or "has no will to live" there really isn't anything to do except clean, bandage and watch for infection. 

Others made a big deal about it and the more it was pressed, the more horrible she felt even making stuff up so it seemed ok - its not her fault. At first, I was shocked then ashamed then questioned why? then started searching her in attempts to help her stop - ya know all the wrong things to do. I was in disbelief when all they did at the hospital for a psych eval was bandage her up while I fell apart. The more restrictions she had the better or so I thought thinking it would stop well at least deter her. When it didn't stop I realized she could use anything for that release. Many people don't get it - they are usually the ones with all kinds of solutions and it does take awhile to understand - its the only way they can get relief until they can find a better alternative. I hope and pray everyday dd15 finds that alternative soon until then the only thing I can do is accept it and help her keep it clean to prevent infection.

DD15's hs counselor gave me this link to look over: www.lifesigns.org.uk/publications/

It still scares me and I feel helpless every time she si's however I do understand it a bit better

 

[griz]

I don't even know how to begin to thank you for all of your support.  I need to really evaluate whether this T is the right person for me.  When I first started seeing her it was for something entirely different.  I was suffering from depression after my husband had an "emotional affair".  About 3 months into dealing with this, DD started to derail and I just stayed with her.  I am beginning to think that with all that has been going on in my life that I just stay out of comfort.  As my mother used to say, better the devil you know than the devil you don't?.  Anyway it is time to really evaluate what I am doing for me and is this helpful.

Part two of the story last night was after I got home and DD seemed better, her bf of 2 years was over and we had dinner together.  She had called him during the day and asked him to come see her because she was so sad. He goes to school about 40 minutes away but nothing ever stops him from rescuing or being there for DD.  They went up to her room to watch a movie and he decided that he was going to talk to her about therapy and her cutting.  I could hear they were arguing and then all of a sudden I heard DD screaming. Not angry screaming, hysterical crying screaming.  I ran upstairs to find DD huddled on her bed hysterical, blood all over the floor and bf holding his arm.  In the heat of the argument I guess he lost it and decided that he was going to show her how cutting doesn't solve anything, so he cut himself.  OMG, what the hell was he thinking.  Not be experienced at this he cut his arm deep and blood was flying all over the place.  He was crying and kept repeating to DD, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.  This was really stupid.  I stayed with DD to calm her down and dh took bf downstairs to the bathroom to bandage him up.  Thank god it wasn't as bad as it seemed he just bleed alot.  Dd just kept crying, this is all my fault over and over and please help him, don't let anything happen to him.  Finally everyone calmed down and I left DD in her room to compose herself, first making her promise me she would not do anything to herself to help her deal with her emotions.  She promised.  I went downstairs to bf and sat with him and he kept apologizing to me and was crying.  I told him not to apologize that I understood he made a mistake but this was not a good one.  Finally DD came down took one look at bf and began crying again.  That sat in the livingroom together by the fire for about an hour and talked.  By the time he left DD was exhausted and so was dh and I.  She said she just wanted to go to sleep.

BF texted me after he left telling me that he was starting therapy at school to help him deal with this and also maybe to find better ways to help DD.  DD is up for school and we are getting ready to leave.  This should be an interesting car ride this morning.

Griz

[almostvegan]

Oh GRIZ what an awful

Nightmare for you! I'm so sorry to hear these things are going on in your and your daughters life.

It really seems like this therapist is not equipt to treat the issues you

Are dealing with. I must say though your d is so lucky to have you just as you are , " stuff" and all ! You're so patient and wonderful with her. I wish I had that strength.

Although the bf is certainly wrong to have done what he did your d is lucky to have him. As misguided as he may be he clearly cares deeply for her. I know you say dd wont go back to therapy but what if he went with her ? Would that compel her to go? Just a thought.

I hope things improve. The cutting is something I will never understand. My d told me she feels ( felt. Thankfully it's been a long time since she's cut as far as I know) the need to cut bc she's " bad and deserves it" makes ZERO sence to me. These poor kids who feel the need to do this awful thing to themselves. I can't wrap my head around it.

My heart and hopes are with you and your daughter.

Sending love to you

AV

[crazedncrazymom]

Griz

Wow!  I'm so sorry you had such a horrible night.  I'm just going to chime in and agree with everyone else and let you know that ignoring the si behavior (except for medical treatment) is the best way to handle it.  Otherwise if she knows how badly it hurts and upsets you it will become her weapon of choice when she's angry or upset with you.  I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've heard "oh yeah, fine I'm gonna cut!"  I used to freak out.  I'd be like AHHHHHHH we're going to the hospital RIGHT NOW!  Now I just say I hope you will choose a better coping skill than that and walk away or hang up.  I don't freak out and she will choose to cut or not cut.  She will usually grab her journal or listens to music.  It is hard and very painful for me to see the cuts on her arm but I do my best not to show how shocking some of her self injuries are.

Just WOW on the bf.  On one hand I completely understand his reaction.  He thinks he can make sense or get through to her.  I feel bad for him because he's obviously hurting too.

[griz]

We are very lucky to have bf in our lives, I sometimew wonder if she knows how lucky she is.  He actually texted me first thing this morning to see how DD was.  Always putting her first.

AV:  How did you get your daughter to stop cutting.  Did she just stop on her own? I am trying everything to get her back to therapy.  I mentioned to her today that bf told me he is going to therapy and she reacted with, "that's good, clearly he needs to go because look how he overreacted last night"   Oyeeeee

Griz

[almostvegan]

My daughter stopped cutting on her own. No idea why or how. I had her therapist ask her about it and she never gave a straight answer everything about her is a total enigma. Why is she no longer depressed? No idea? Cutting? Same. Her team has no clue.  Not complaining but we would like to understAnd it so we can prevent it all from happening again. But I have no answer for you. Still I look at her scarred arms and breasts and legs and think " I can't believe she did all that to herself". I wish I could help you figure out how to get your dd to stop I just don't even know how it happened here either. 

When I read about what bf did I was on a city bus and I gasped so loudly! Poor guy. I hope he sticks around he sounds like such a sweet

Kid.

Keep us posted as to how things go.

Peace

AV

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

my two cents... .  My dd15 had been admitted to the hopital 3 times in the last 6 months... .  one of the last times she was admitted they told me to stop bringing her back... .  that she was using the hospital as a coping method. This is when she was cutting and talking suicide. OnChristmas night she took an over dose and I took her to the ER to be sure she was okay... .  I talked with the social worker who lucky for me has a son with BPD... .  it was agreed that she was fine and not going to hurt herself and I took her home... .  she has not self harmed since and has not been cutting which she was doing pretty regularly... .  now I don't know if she will stop but I am hoping... .  in Valerie Porr's book she talks about stopping certain behaviors and the process involved... .  

My dd like to mimic... .  she is not cutting right now but seems to have a great interest in her weight.

I feel for you... .  must have been so upsetting... .  I have been looking at youtube and some videos there by a boy in Holland... .  take a look at them... .  your daughter might really like to see them... .  me and my black table... .  just serach that... .  thee are a lot of videos about how to stop self harm

big hug to you  

[griz]

jellibeans:

That is so interesting that you mentioned about your DD's weight. DD wasn't cutting for a very long time.  She started again recently after losing much of the weight she gained from meds.  Once she started to lose weight she became obsessed with it.  She has lost every pound that she gained but still wants to lose more.  She seems to have plateaued somewhat, probably because she really is pretty thin now (not thin like worrying thin).  Anyway she is always making comments about how fat she still feels and last night bf told me that she cut because she is she is disgusted with herself and feels fat.

Today she texted me and a friend at school asked her to join a local gym with her.  She said she would pay herself and I told her I thought that was a great idea.

Griz

[jellibeans]

Griz

I try to ignore it because I think paying too much attention will only re-enforce this habit of her weight issues... .  My dd takes a 0 in jeans and yes she thinks she is fat. She started going to group therapy about a month ago now and a few of the girls are there because of weight issues. Again she really likes to try on new disorders. If she with nice kids she is nice if she is with partiers she is a drug addict... .  She has recently started running again which I am happy because I think excerise is good for her well being and is something she can be proud of.

I think with BPD there is always a voice in their head telling them they are not good enough, they are not skinny enough or smart enough and so on... .  I try to find times to point out her good traits.

Hugs to you... .  hang in there... .  I remind myself always that tomorrow will be better... .  don't get caught in the moment... .  try to stand back... .  it is hard for me not to feel an overwhelming sense of sadness at times... .  but I kow it will get better... .  

[pessim-optimist]

A newbie question: what exactly does si stand for? (Looks to me like it stands for cutting, I thought it stood for suicide or suicidal ideation)?

[jellibeans]

here is a link

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0

I think you can find it here

[peaceplease]

pesi-optimist,

 .  Yes, SI=suicide ideation

[pessim-optimist]

Hm, now I'm confused, just looked at the abbreviations page, it's not there, but way down under cutting, there is reference to self-injure, which could be si and lbj seems to refer to it as such... .  

Anyway, wanted to support Griz:

Hi Griz,

sounds like your t is advising what a "regular" person would do if a non child was acting the way your d does. Not so with your BPD d and you have experience in it, and also read books about it.

You are confused, because you know the info from your t is wrong, but you still second guess yourself, because your t is the "professional", right?

Hang in there, Griz,   . Also sounds like your t is trying to put a guilt trip on you. If something happened, of course you would feel awful, but a) it's not likely and b) we are not responsible for other people's decisions/actions (as much as we worry about our children, they are separate individuals with their separate free will.

[lbjnltx]

Si=self injury

SI=suicidal ideation


sorry... .  doesn't seem fair to the newbies using all these abbreviations.

If there is ever anything you don't understand please ask... .  we are here to help.

[peaceplease]

Yes, what lbj said!

Sorry, there are some abbreviations that can stand for more than one. ie SIL= son-in-law or sister-in-law

In nursing school, we learned that SOB meant shortness of breath, and not son of b-----. 

I am guilty of getting carried away with abbreviations, especially since I started texting.  

[pessim-optimist]

I see  , thank you so much!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

OP:

Thank you for your kind words.  You are right, we are not responsible for the choice others make and I need to learn to not only say it but also believe it.  As a child, I was not the needy one in the family, my older brother was.  He was beyond needy and I was the responsible one, always doing the right thing. This was expected of me so my parents could focus on my brother.  I lived up to their expectations.  I was the perfect student, responsible and respectful.  This became a way of life for me.  Nothing I do is exceptable unless it is perfect.  Not a good fit for a parent of a BPD child.  I am stuck in trying to fix this mode.  I have to accept that I cannot fix her.  There is nothing I can do to make this magically go away. I have to learn to accept that this is okay and find forgiveness for myself, or maybe the word is acceptance.

I practiced this morning. DD was ready on time and we drove into work together.  I noticed some new cuts on her hand.  Tears started to fill my eyes and I became instantly sad.  I said nothing and I reminded myself that I did not make those cuts. I did not cause those cuts and I tried to put in out of my mind.  She will come into work later and I know that people will notice.  Sadly I say that this embarasses me. I guess I will need to work on that too.

Griz

[Reality]

Dear griz,

You are doing so well with your daughter.  Nice morning boundaries for you. 

I understand your feelings about the cutting.

I hope your daughter can find a kind T, who can help her to deal with her beautiful, but too very intense feelings, so she can manage the distress.

Take very good care and be very gentle with yourself.  Seeing the cutting is traumatic.  So very gentle... .  

Reality

[jellibeans]

griz

take a look at this video

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev7Gf4MzPMQ&list=UUXKRWBKFt6HE2vIGdZHVvLA&index=22

he has many on you tube

[cfh]

jellibeans

I just spent the last half hour watching those youtube videos.  They are pretty amazing!  I'm going to watch all of them eventually.  I feel like I am watching my son explain how he feels (though my ds has never done it so calmly).

When and if ds gets out of jail I would like him to watch them but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea.  I think he would definitely identify with everything on them.

What do you think?  Has your dd seen them?

[jellibeans]

I just found them and I have been trying to watch all of them too... .  I don't know about showing them to her yet but I asked her T to look at them and she what she thought.

I liked them because I felt like I understood what a BPD person was thinking about different things... .  it helps me understand more why sometimes a small incident can become a major one. How she feel slighted at times if a friend doesn't  come over or call. She is thinking all bad things like... .  she doesn't like me... .  I am no good... .  and so on.

I think there are a lot of people with BPD that comment on his videos... .  they seem to find them helpful... .  a lot of them are geared to changing behaviors etc... .  let me know if you show it to your daughter and what she thinks... .  good luck and I hope she gets some use from them. At least maybe she will try to stop the cutting... .  might be an addiction now so starting to go to the gym might be a replacement for the behavior... .  what do you think?

[jellibeans]

sorry one more thing

he has his own channel... .  www.youtube.com/user/meandmyblacktable

[jellibeans]

I am sorry again I meant to say son... .  cfth... .  been posting a lot and got confused as what posting I was at... .  please forgive me... .  

[cfh]

jellibeans

No problem I get mixed up all the time.  I'm very interested to hear what your T says about the youtube videos.  Keep us posted. I liked them a lot just not sure if I should have ds see them.

[jellibeans]

Yes I feel the same way... .  that is the eggshell response maybe but I always question now what I am doing and what I am saying. I will let you know what she says.