how do I say this nicely?

[nowheretogo]

I am writing to ask any of you how to verbalize this topic when it comes up in court.  The topic is that I choose to put my children in daycare rather than have H stay at home with them.  The real reasons are because he has a BPD personality with anger problems, and does not handle children with kid gloves, and because I feel like the daycare provides them much more stability, routine, etc.  He always says it's a shame that I spend $x per year on daycare when he could stay home with the kids (hasn't really worked much since August, 2011).  I guess along the same lines, how do you handle these things professionally in court?  I suppose you just state facts about what he has said/done, without trying to put him into any kind of category or directly accusing him of having certain problems?

I was also wondering... .  I've noticed that a lot of people  up here say that there so's often are down on themselves with negative thoughts about themselves.  I keep hearing my H say "I'm a good person" and such things as to how he has been so good to me and the kids.  Is this atypical?  He says that I have labeled him as a bad H and father; I have never actually said that, but I don't agree with a lot of the things he says and does and how he handles us.  For example, I have told him that I don't like or want him screaming at me in front of the kids... .  so I guess HE is equating that to "bad" also?

[ForeverDad]

Try to have your time as your time.  And your care decisions on your time.  Unfortunately things go both ways.  If there is Right of First Refusal (ROFR), you need to establish which situations are excluded.  School of course is an obvious exception, neither parent can supersede school.  In my order I managed to get licensed daycare ("licensed" to avoid her proclaiming herself as the sitter) listed as equivalent to school and exempt from ROFR claims.

They're currently in daycare.  You don't want to change what works.  Likely the judge will agree, one unwritten motto they have is not to needlessly 'upset' the children or their schedules.  Besides, if he's not working now and the children are in daycare now, then what basis does he claim to move up to more care once you're divorced?

The children get to socialize now with other children.  That is good for their development.

Lastly, state that if ex watches the children he will have no incentive to actually go out, find a job and move on in his life.  It would be the reverse, he would have every incentive to sit back and keep coasting through life.  Think: bum.  (That last sentence may have your emotional overtones and maybe shouldn't be stated so clearly?)

[nowheretogo]

What is ROFR?  Is that where H says he wants to be the first one called to babysit sort of thing?  I am sure he will try to pull that, too, because I saw something like his old divorce decree.  Thing is, what if I want to get a Mommy's helper or something to watch the kids for a couple of hours in the afternoon, so that they aren't in daycare over the 10-hour limit?  Do I have to request him to do it first?  Again, what you said about that keeping him from getting a job comes to mind.  He already says he can't work certain jobs and hours because of "child-care restraints".  They aren't real restraints.  I could always pick up D2 from daycare if I had to, or I can easily afford to hire some extra help.  Truth is, I don't need him.  But in his reality, he is needed.  He wants to be available for emergencies, if D2 would need to be picked up urgently.  I told him, truth is, if it is a true emergency, it wouldn't matter what your job is or what you are doing, you will stop and go, as will I.

[scraps66]

It may very well be the case that you cannot intimate the situaiton in court and be well received.  It may be the case that someone like an expert witness, ie. psychologist recognized by the court, would have to explain that - this from my experience in my courthouse.  Not saying it's right, but it is one way that judges and masters wittle down the list of things to consider, "oh well, waht do you know, you're just a perturbed litigant," and thus only use the information convenienlty at their finger tips and they make the lsit as small as possible.

[tog]

ROFR is Right of First Refusal. In our case it is 3 hours... .  if he is to be left with anyone other than his parent for longer than that, the other parent must be offered the time. (Except for going to a friend's house). I wish it was longer in our case, but that was the best we could do. She never offers SO any time and SS is on a gag order not to tell. We more or less follow it pretty closely. There have been times he has been with me for more than 3 hours but he's only awake for the first 2 so he doesn't know the difference.

It's good and bad... .  in our case, she got it into the court order after I spent a day with SS during the summer... .  but she herself had tried to leave SS with a stranger while she left the country. As with most things BPD, she generally doesn't follow it, but we have no idea. 

I don't know how ForeverDad got that daycare provision, we could never do that. Be prepared they might let him have the kids during the day EXCEPT that they will likely be expecting him to get a job so it won't be forever.

[ForeverDad]

I don't know how ForeverDad got that daycare provision, we could never do that. Be prepared they might let him have the kids during the day EXCEPT that they will likely be expecting him to get a job so it won't be forever.

It was part of our divorce settlement, it was only rubberstamped by the judge.  When I pushed for it, she was focused on excluding grandparents.  She of course didn't like my parents who were retired and lived nearby, her abuser stepfather was long dead, she wasn't on good terms with her remote closed-eyes complicit mother (likely waif uBPD) and she never had a relationship with her remote father.  So I was able to get (licensed) daycare declared equivalent to school with regard to our 5 hour ROFR.  I pushed for it mainly to prevent her from snagging son after school for a couple hours on all my days.  I didn't want my parenting time fragmented nor did I want even more exchanges with her.  She considered herself as Entitled Mother and better than 'strangers'.   Within a couple months she had caused enough scenes at school and daycare that daycare filed in court about harassment and school gave me as the new Residential Parent one day's notice to take son to my school even though the school year had only 6 weeks to go.  Oh, it was Kindergarten too.

If the children are already in school or daycare, then you need to keep it that way.  In any case, in a couple years the youngest will be in pre-school or kindergarten anyway.  Push the aspect that you want the children socialized with other kids, not home with a parent who might be drinking or whatever.  (Isolation is a common disordered tactic.)

As I recall, only the youngest is his child.  He has no claim to other children unless he's the natural or legal father.  Beware of letting him get legally entangled parenting your other child(ren).

[nowheretogo]

OK, this whole topic is confusing me to some extent.  I guess trying to get the daycare used as a school equivalent is good.  He is going to argue that she should be with her parents and not in daycare for extended periods of time, that that is "not good for kids."  I am going to argue the stability, socialization, and teaching in a Christian environment vs. cursing, drinking, major mood swings, and unemployed needing a job.  He wants as much time as possible so that he can try to get 50/50 custody so that he can get child support from me since I have a high income, and then again, he wouldn't  have to work.

We don't have a custody suit yet, but I am worried about it.  For example, I don't know what will happen is the divorce gets approved after the March 1st divorce master.  We won't be able to just "work it out".  My H will try to control me like he always does, and to get his way with one week here and one week there.  I will not willingly agree to that, and will only do that if the courts make me.

[ForeverDad]

Literally millions of children go to daycares every weekday.  It's a fact of life and he has already dealt with that fact since the child(ren) are already in one.  Don't let him re-open and drastically change what already is.  Picking up the child in the late afternoon a few hours before you get home is not all that stupendous.

With a short marriage he will likely not receive alimony post-decree, or only for a short while at most.

He'll have to move out at some point or perhaps the house will be sold - with him dragging his feet if he is allowed to stay in it until it sells.  So where will he live?

What if he moves away?  What if you move away?  While you can't fret about it now, it may happen down the road.  Keep that in mind as you decide what aspects of custody and care are important to you.

Meanwhile it's likely that he will find try to someone else to mooch off of, maybe even make yet another little bundle of leverage with the next relationship.

[nowheretogo]

Since you brought up moving away... .  I am concerned that he will try to prevent me from doing that, too.  I currently commute about 45 min. to work and plan to move closer hopefully in the next couple of years.  I need to  make sure that he doesn't restrict that in the custody order.  On one hand he keeps saying that he never wanted another kid (has older kids, the youngest is 19) and that now he is tied down to this county, whereas if not for me having a kid with him, he'd be single and able to move wherever he wants.  I wish he would just move wherever he wants, and just let me be the primary caregiver and work out a summer and holidays schedule or something.  He has a history of being largely uninvolved with his kids.  Why would that change?  Oh, yeah, the money, ... .  

[ForeverDad]

Yeah, he found someone who can support him and he's not going to let go of that until he has to.  No doubt he's wondering how you woke up and discerned his strategies.  Sounds like you first have to deal with how much time he gets, how little $$$ he will get from you and then he may recede a bit into the background.  Right now he feels Entitled and that Entitlement has his eyes glowing gold.  His bluster and not-so-subtle pressuring are meant to keep you off balance and not feeling as positive about your strengths as you would otherwise.  In reality his position is somewhat weak so he's trying his best to undermine your confidence and pressure you into settling for far more than the court would likely gift him.

As for moving, some orders just state that the parent moving has to notify the court and the other parent.  Others add in a distance limit such as 50 or 100 miles and anything more would need approval from the court if the other spouse objects.  (Note: Approval from the ex often doesn't happen.)

Thousands of parents move every year, sometimes as far as across the country.  Yes, distance makes the logistics difficult, but it still happens and the courts do deal with it.  So if he claims he can block your moving, don't fall for it.  He can make it difficult and force you to jump through all the court's hoops but probably not block it.

[tog]

My friend is going through a divorce with a non-BPD person. When the issue of him helping pay for after school care came up, he said, "I will just watch him after school every day." And the mediator said, "If you can do that, why haven't you been?"

If your D has been in daycare and suddenly NOW he wants to watch her instead, that should look a bit suspicious to them, and you can argue that upsetting her routine is not good for her, especially since prior to filing for divorce he wasn't interested in watching her all day.

[livednlearned]

Short marriage, unemployed dad, young toddler -- and your child is already in daycare? I wouldn't worry about it too much. It isn't a sustainable, longterm reasonable situation, and anyone who has been working around the family court system for a long time will want him to get a job because he comes across as a mooch.

Also, your L will do most of the talking. If you are asked to talk, you focus on what's best for your daughter. ":)2 is in a daycare she loves, and she gets a lot of social time interacting with other kids. It's best that D2 has a loving, consistent environment while H is on the job market."

Moving 45 minutes away probably won't even make a difference as far as courts go. That's just a hop skip and jump for some divorced parents. I guess you could include a contingency in your custody order, but more than likely you'll modify the existing custody order when you are preparing to move, and you'll adjust the schedule at that point so that it reflects the additional driving time.

I was also wondering... .  I've noticed that a lot of people  up here say that there so's often are down on themselves with negative thoughts about themselves.  I keep hearing my H say "I'm a good person" and such things as to how he has been so good to me and the kids.  Is this atypical?  He says that I have labeled him as a bad H and father; I have never actually said that, but I don't agree with a lot of the things he says and does and how he handles us.  For example, I have told him that I don't like or want him screaming at me in front of the kids... .  so I guess HE is equating that to "bad" also?

This stuff won't eat you up so much once you aren't living together anymore. When you read about the depth of shame that fuels a lot of BPD behavior, the grandstanding makes more sense. Your H can't live with the depths of shame and failure he experiences, so he creates the reality he needs to believe in, because the shame is too intolerable. N/BPDxh did this too. He has attributed all kinds of nasty things to me, things I've never said, about his parenting. In his mind, he is a fabulous father. Sometimes he is, but not consistently, and he completely ignores the rages, the name-calling, the falling down drunk, you know, all that.

It's a tough mental illness, and sad. You'll be amazed how much healing will happen when you two are not living in the same house. Really messes with your thinking when you live alongside someone who is that ill.

[nowheretogo]

Thank you all, for your replies!  You always help me to remember that I am a sane and (at least relatively) normal person

Now H is talking about something "big" possibly happening this week.  Met some people from his old job as a probation officer Sat. night, and said he "found out some things" that might help him.  Said he is "done asking me and trying" (to 'make it work', at least after this week, but can't tell me anything yet until maybe Wed. or Thur. 

I don't know if he is thinking he might get his job back or have some kind of chance at a big settlement or something, but I'm not getting my hopes up too high... .  

[ForeverDad]

Don't hold your breath.  Beware of anything he says that would make you feel like delaying your case while hoping something he claims actually works.  Delays are a common tactic.  Obstruction and disinformation are others.

[livednlearned]

Don't hold your breath.  Beware of anything he says that would make you feel like delaying your case while hoping something he claims actually works.  Delays are a common tactic.  Obstruction and disinformation are others.

Yeah, I agree with FD. He wants to hook you, and probably believes something "big" is happening. Just keep focusing on the way forward and don't let his diversions distract you.

You're doing great -- it's hard to get through the slow court process and divorce a BPD sufferer. Hang in there 

[nowheretogo]

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of maybe he thought something was going to happen that would cause him to be more likely to accept the divorce (such as winning a sum of cash).  However, I know what you mean by being hooked, and I also did have the thought that he may also think that if he does win a settlement or get a good job that he might "hook" me back in.  Not going to happen.