They MUST Know That They Have Something Wrong With Them.

[cookiecrumbled]

It is a mental illness in which delusional thinking is triggered by critical self-examination.  I know that mine knows something is wrong with her, but I think she also knows (subconsciously perhaps) that the process of acknowledging that results in her actually pretty much losing her mind.

In my limited experience with people with other mental illnesses, the situation seems to be quite different.  The landmines that set off psychotic episodes in other mental illnesses often seem scattered randomly and unpredictably:  One day he may think his wireless router is being controlled by the government to read his thoughts, and the next day he can look back at that and realize that he lost his mind.  What set off the psychotic episode?  I'm not able to say, but it seems reasonable to say that the association made with the wireless router is rather arbitrary.  He can later, in a moment of greater clarity, think about the wireless router without another psychotic episode being triggered.  He is mentally ill, but it is possible for him to see it within himself and seek help.

BPD is different.  The landmines that trigger delusional thinking make a perfect circle around the person's core self.  And they don't move.  In this sense, my uxBPDw can know that something is wrong with her, but the process of thinking about it will always disrupt her rational thinking, and prevent her from making real progress towards acknowledging or addressing the problem.  When in her more rational moments, she can see her insanity... .  but the act of seeing her insanity makes her return to it, and the context of "a more rational moment" ceases to apply.

It really is a Catch-22.

If you had a mental illness that caused you to go crazy every time you thought about being crazy, what would you do?  I think we'd all do the same thing:  we'd learn to try to think about it as little as possible.  To them, there is a bad, ugly, dangerous something that is associated with these thoughts - and there is no way through the landmines... .  one can only go around them, or flee from them, or hide from them.

And it seems like that task of hiding and fleeing becomes the overwhelming driving force in their lives.  And it is a task which takes all of their heart, soul, and energy to attempt to accomplish.  Things like love and romance and commitment and companionship are simple moving gears in this world, as are the people in their lives.  These people can either help them in their task (which makes them a momentary hero), or hurt them in this task (which makes them dangerous and awful).

Mine definitely knows something is wrong with her, but she can't face that or process that in a rational way.  So she screams that she's "strong" and "happy" and "okay" to anyone that will listen.  I'm sure she'd love to face it... .  but if she were able to, then she probably wouldn't have BPD... .  at least not in the same way that she does.

It really is a Catch-22.

Exactly!  My exbfwBPD had a few moments (in 18 months) of clarity when he would say something to the effect of "I'm so sorry the man you love is screwed up in the head."  But it was as if this very admission would tip him back into crazy land - diametrically, give me hope of getting through to him.  And it destroyed me.

[cookiecrumbled]

Yep, mine knew something was wrong with her, especially in her clearer, more lucid moments. 

But she knows something's wrong with her ability to do relationships, and she knows I know.  It's one of the things that helped her end things... .  the shame of me knowing was too much for her.

EXACTLY - once he saw the "My gosh, he's crazy" look of realization on my face, my days were numbered.

[grad]

It's even more interesting when they're having an emotional meltdown (partially alcohol induced) and when you're trying to manage the situation they snap out of it and say "I need to stop doing this."  These are the lucid moments that I've seen mentioned before.  The reality is they know but cannot stop it so there's no point in trying to talk them out of it.  It's something they must do for themselves on their own through trial and error and the desire to be happy and fulfilled.

And they know their NON-pushover s/o with any values will see through their episodes and make them face the reality.  They run from the people they can't control because they're afraid of facing their deep childhood issues and since they fear being abandoned and alone, they find a new target for their insanity

[jaird]

Yep, mine knew something was wrong with her, especially in her clearer, more lucid moments.  I used to accuse her of being incapable of holding up her half of a relationship.  One day, in a very calm voice, out of nowhere, she acquiesced and said she was afraid I was right.  We weren't fighting or even upset.  It was a good engagement. 

As things became rockier for us, I think she ran away from that realization.  She had to in order to paint me all black, and to get through the end of our relationship.  But she knows something's wrong with her ability to do relationships, and she knows I know.  It's one of the things that helped her end things... .  the shame of me knowing was too much for her.

Interesting point, especially your last two sentences. I had never really considered the shame aspect of BPD, but my ex has a lot of shame. She was always wondering what people thought of her, even people she hardly knew, acquaintances from years ago. And in the end, she knew that I knew that she has BPD, and it is a pretty classic case.

She even threatened to tell people that I was not a man that loved my kids and family, because I had an affair with her. She felt I was two faced. She did not seem to realize, or care, that I was pretty much minding my own business when she initiated the affair. And she seemed not to realize that a person can love their children and even their spouse, and yet find themselves in an affair.

She further failed to realize that I am middle aged, retired, and my kid are grown. I stopped caring years ago what "people" thought about me. I care what my mother thinks, my wife, and my kids. I could care less what the rest of the world thinks. As far as I see, half of them are doing the same thing, and the other half are divorced.

[charred]

My exBPDgf told me fairly recently that she knew she was unstable, but that her therapist had told her that was all and most the problems were due to me, and that she had told her to read "Women who love too much"... .  to me it should have been "Women who hate too much", as she has spent 3 times as much time being a hater... .  but I digress.

I don't believe they are integrated in their personality, and that allows them to survive while being a massive tangle of contradictions. Would say they are world class rationalizers as well. When they flip they see you as bad, so bad it justifies whatever they feel like they want to do to you. They notice they have issues, but stay in denial and cling to it.

My exBPDgf today... wanted an apology from me... I had allowed LC for a while, she wanted to talk to me on gmail chat, I was out of town visiting my mom and helping her out... so I had chat on, then my mom wanted help loading her truck... .  I come back and she had tried chatting and I wasn't there... so she left a nasty note on chat... .  I ignored her.

Then next day she sends a nasty email, followed by a text saying that I was a liar and she knows that I talk to people other than her on gmail chat. (I don't... .  I use other means) So she said I was blocked... next day... text with please get on chat. I get on and she wanted an apology from me for what I was doing (which was nothing)... I asked why I would need to apologize when she was one that called me a liar then was juvenile and blocked me on the chat... and I put those messages on the emails she had sent with proof she did it... .  and she said that for a while I was lucid but was clearly in denial and that I needed to quit contacting her, she didn't need my harrassment.

So... I believe she knows she has something wrong... has admitted to being unstable... .  and she seemed to like it when I knew what was wrong with her and was trying to adjust to it... .  but when that same knowing points out any tiny issue with her... .  the denial/painting black/projection kicks in and she says I am not lucid and harassing her (though she started all the contact.)

Does it matter if they know... .  they are making it real obvious to us they have something wrong.

[struggli]

Mine knew there was something wrong with her, and described herself as "crazy", "psycho", and "complex". She first heard about BPD when her daughter's therapist said her mother might have it because she pushes away loved ones. She took the online test for BPD and got six of the nine responses as positive. So she got an affirmative diagnosis that way. I also took the test as her, based on what she had told me about her life and behavior, and got the same six positives.

Then she bought me a book on loving someone with BPD. She asked me if I was in this for the long haul, and I said I was.

I found her a therapist by her that specializes in BPD. She told me she called, but the woman did not take her insurance, and the cost for a years treatment was in the thousands of dollars, so she blew it off and saw a generic therapist a few times until she decided "I am what I am, and we are all products of our environment", and stopped seeing the therapist after about three visits because of the co-payments and because "she couldn't help me anymore"

Now, to this day, if we argue and I see BPD like behavior and point it out, she denies she has BPD! She says our issues are real, and a few of them are. But it's not that the issues we have are not real, it's her reaction to them!

So, I would say, at least in the case of my ex, that she knows she has but is in some sort of denial about it most of the time.

Mine covered up my face during sex sometimes or would look at something else, to which I'd stop.

That book is about a guy who had this disorder in which faces cannot be recognized.  It's more of a visual processing issue than a personality disorder type thing.

She also expressed bisexual interest.  I just shrugged.  I think every female says that nowadays. 

She said she probably had ptsd.

She said she didn't get out of bed for a month when she was younger due to depression.

She said she was worried she had aids, but when I offered to pay for the test she declined.  The same with therapy.  I said I'd pay.  she said she couldn't accept that.  Yet she could accept money for rent, electric bill, car payment... .  

[jaird]

It's a mental illness.  Many of the homeless are pwBPD.  They may know that they are different but simply lack the capacity to know why they are different or how their actions cause suffering.  The only difference between a homeless baglady and my is that my ex wBPD has better survival skills to move through our world as an imposter.

But the fact is that she is stuck at the emotional maturity level of a terrified three year old.  She has never learned to take responsibility, to apologize, to feel compassion or to sacrifice.  It's not that she won't engage in such behaviors, it's that she CAN'T.   She's never ever reached that phase of development.  And it's not just that she's stuck at being a toddler.  She is a terrified and abused toddler, living in her very real nightmares, and with specifically an attachment disorder.  

I'd have more luck asking a person with Down's syndrome to explain what's wrong with them.  They may know that they are different in someways, but for them to be self-aware and understand why they are different is beyond them.  

sounds harsh, but unfortunately it is all true. Except for some moments of lucidity, mine would never admit that she left a trail of men with destroyed relationships in her past. She actually prided herself on being "complex", LOL

[jaird]

My exBPDgf told me fairly recently that she knew she was unstable, but that her therapist had told her that was all and most the problems were due to me, and that she had told her to read "Women who love too much"... .  to me it should have been "Women who hate too much", as she has spent 3 times as much time being a hater... .  but I digress.

I don't believe they are integrated in their personality, and that allows them to survive while being a massive tangle of contradictions. Would say they are world class rationalizers as well. When they flip they see you as bad, so bad it justifies whatever they feel like they want to do to you. They notice they have issues, but stay in denial and cling to it.

My exBPDgf today... wanted an apology from me... I had allowed LC for a while, she wanted to talk to me on gmail chat, I was out of town visiting my mom and helping her out... so I had chat on, then my mom wanted help loading her truck... .  I come back and she had tried chatting and I wasn't there... so she left a nasty note on chat... .  I ignored her.

Then next day she sends a nasty email, followed by a text saying that I was a liar and she knows that I talk to people other than her on gmail chat. (I don't... .  I use other means) So she said I was blocked... next day... text with please get on chat. I get on and she wanted an apology from me for what I was doing (which was nothing)... I asked why I would need to apologize when she was one that called me a liar then was juvenile and blocked me on the chat... and I put those messages on the emails she had sent with proof she did it... .  and she said that for a while I was lucid but was clearly in denial and that I needed to quit contacting her, she didn't need my harrassment.

So... I believe she knows she has something wrong... has admitted to being unstable... .  and she seemed to like it when I knew what was wrong with her and was trying to adjust to it... .  but when that same knowing points out any tiny issue with her... .  the denial/painting black/projection kicks in and she says I am not lucid and harassing her (though she started all the contact.)

Does it matter if they know... .  they are making it real obvious to us they have something wrong.

This is my ex too, word for word. Except that it's not chat, it's Facebook or cell.

At times, she has told me that she's "crazy", and "psycho" and has BPD. Other times she denies having BPD, and says she's "complex", and that I am bipolar and harassing her.

It matters not that I am the same guy, day in and day out, and extremely easy going. I admit that I have argued with her, and I have often defended my self, and at times I have gotten tired of her nasty accusations and her general demeanor which seems to be to want to fight. And I admit that at times I have said some nasty things to her and pushed her away. But I have never had this type of relationship with anyone else. I argued less with my wife in 25 years than I did with my ex sometimes in two months!

I'm thinking that if I'm like this with only my ex, because she pushes my buttons, then I am not bipolar, I am just a pissed off man who eventually lashes back. Am I right?

[Tausk]

Does it matter if they know... .  they are making it real obvious to us they have something wrong.

And that Charred is the key.  It doesn't matter.  We know there's something wrong.

They are disordered and never fully developed emotionally.  Again it's like asking a person with down's syndrome if they know why they are different. Or ever asking a blind or deaf person.  They may understand that they are different or limited, but how can they know how they are limited if they have never known any other way of life.

And to wonder how much they understand only prolongs the pain for me.  It allows me to fantasize that my ex might get better come to a realization and return to me as an adult.  Or it allows me to play the victim to someone who deliberately  harmed me with the malice intent of being destructive.  Both of which I know are not true.  My ex sincerely wants to be good and that's why I believed my ex.

And the question maybe shouldn't be: They MUST Know That They Have Something Wrong With Them, but rather... .  

WE MUST KNOW THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH US!



Why else would we end up attached to and lost in a person who does not have many, or maybe none, of the capacities that an even somewhat mature adult would have.  My ex doesn't have any capacity for responsibility, empathy, altruism, or remorse.  Why would I expect her to understand what exactly is wrong.  Yes they know they are different, but they really probably don't know how.  And those that do start to figure out who they are end up killing themselves more times than not.  

So it's probably better they don't understand. Because I want my ex to survive.


And that leads us back to looking at ourselves.  If you're anything lik me, your friends have been saying to themselves for a long time... .  he/she must know that the relationship is toxic, and there's something wrong, and he/she must know that he/she needs to get out ASAP.  And for me it's gotten to the point where they don't enable my self pity anymore and have pure compassion fatigue because I burdened them with the insanity for so long.  Yet, I couldn't see exactly what was wrong with ME!

So if we can't even identify that there is something wrong with us, how can we even hope that our exes can identify with their shortcomings, when the use of their survival responses are what kept them sane as children and it's the only things that they know.

Again, it's good to learn about the disorder to understand why we because lost and how we can move forward.  But to try and understand and place rationality into a mind that is disordered to the extent of someone with BPD is an exercise that keeps me in my pain.  The disorder always wins, and to try and make sense of the disordered mind only further enmeshes me in the disorder.  I must by now know that fact.  But I still miss my ex and long for her even though I know I'd never take her back.  The disorder is cunning, baffling and insidious.

So I must be vigilant in my personal level of self honesty.  I must take responsibility.  I must focus on myself. And I must accept the truth including:  I permitted abuse, but I was never a victim, I was a volunteer.

And, I was the one who was supposed to be the caretaker and without the disorder.  But in the end, I don't know if I made a difference at all, or even very possibly made things worse by causing my ex to suppress even more shame and terror.  So all I can do is look at my shortcomings and my FOO issues.  

In support

[sadderbutwiser]

My  ex uBPD bf told me (afte the honeymoon ended) that his "moods" - aka rages - were down to his badly managed Type 1 diabetes - which I beleived at first.

He would never consider there was anything wrong with him - a I missed early on was his stories of how badly his 2 ex wives and lt gf treated him. He was in constant text battles with his 2nd ex - over their kids - and he always accused her of being a "psycho" and telling her she needed treatment - and refused my advice on not getting into battles for the kids sake.

We ended after he woke me up to rage at me at 2.30am - after a good holiday and a great night out with friends of mine. I asked him to leave - and the next day - he texted the man of the couple we had been out with - saying goodbye to him as he had "really f***ed it up with L*****". This was an admission of responsibility - but it passed - and he blamed me for not loving him enough, not letting him move in with me, being frigid etc etc etc. I will no doublt now be the latest "horrible woman who did him wrong" to anyone who will listen. I wonder if his long termcolleagues (has no real friends) ever realise who is the common denominator in all this?

[cal644]

I think my soon to be exuBPDw had moments of clarity.  She also blames alot on PTSD, but at times she would say "what type of person would do this to her family" or, "I know I should do this or that but I can't - I don't know how to describe it but I can't".  But latter if I point out any of her issues or comments she turns it on me how I'm Bi-polar, controlling, making up lies... .  so she has her moments she knows it's her... .  but give it a minute or two and it will once again become it YOU!   I think if she ever looked at herself it would kill her. 

[struggli]

Mine also suggested it was birth control causing her changing moods.  Yet, she was on the same birth control the entire time we were together, from idealization to devaluation.

[HarmKrakow]

Do they know if something is wrong with them?

Check ...

www.psychforums.com/borderline-personality/topic61319.html

And see for yourself, that is also quite good detachment for us NON BPDers.

[Rose Tiger]

That's interesting, criticism causes a psychotic melt down of sorts.  That's what we trigger.    Yeah, I'd avoid me too, if that were the case with me.

That's a fascinating thread Harmkrakow.  They kind of bluntly put it out there and the lack of empathy shines through,  like watching Silence of the Lambs.  It makes me a bit sick to read through that.  To know that some people get some sort of thrill out of hurting another person because of early abuse, love and pain get all mixed up.  Flipping that around, imagining a thread on that board, do they know something is wrong with them?  And a poster saying, I abused my partner today and turned them into a sobbing wreck, why do they put up with that?  And it goes back to the same history of early abuse mixed with love in my own history.  Why can't people treat children right?  Makes me angry.  The smallest, most defenseless dealing with abuse.  I don't like it, I wish I could change the world in that regard.  :'(

[Cumulus]

This topic makes me so sad, because yes my xBPDh knew there was something terribly wrong with him. Years before the diagnosis he would say to me, "but you don't understand, I can't see the forest but for the trees". He also told me that it was hard for him to look in a mirror and see his face. What loathing to not want to see yourself. I never understood.  Had no idea what he was dealing with. It was only after we separated and he was diagnosed that I was able to begin to comprehend what BPD was, and the turmoil it inflicted on our family. I hate this disease.

[Iced]

My friend once admitted that they knew they had a problem and that they were getting professional help, etc, which I was very proud of at the time - proud that they were taking care of themselves and at the least, being self-aware.

Thing is... .  later on, when they started to really fly off the handles, they refused to admit that they still had this problem and when asked why they stopped seeing their healthcare professional, they said that they didn't need it anymore.

So I think that at times, when the BPD isn't the one in control over them, they CAN admit to needing help (in fact, that's probably why they sometimes swing to such extremes in emotions - guilt, anger, etc, at the things they did), but when the BPD is the one in control, they can't or WON'T.

In my experience, it's WON'T because during those times, the LAST thing they want to admit is that THEY have a problem and that THEY are flying off the handles, and that THEY are being unreasonable or being unsafe, etc.

[cocobell]

My ex/friend has flashes of insight which then disappear. He once wrote me a long message (during his pushing me away phase) where he said 'I'm not normal' and that nobody knows him because he couldn't let them, they wouldn't like what they saw, and so on... .  

He also can acknowledge his lack of empathy sometimes. He's told me that others have said they think he is overly harsh and cruel at times, including his parents - and this seems to make him very sad as he seems not to quite understand what's going on with him, why, and how he can stop. I feel for him at these moments. Then the door of insight slams shut again and he gets defensive, angry, etc.

CB

[jaird]

My friend once admitted that they knew they had a problem and that they were getting professional help, etc, which I was very proud of at the time - proud that they were taking care of themselves and at the least, being self-aware.

Thing is... .  later on, when they started to really fly off the handles, they refused to admit that they still had this problem and when asked why they stopped seeing their healthcare professional, they said that they didn't need it anymore.

So I think that at times, when the BPD isn't the one in control over them, they CAN admit to needing help (in fact, that's probably why they sometimes swing to such extremes in emotions - guilt, anger, etc, at the things they did), but when the BPD is the one in control, they can't or WON'T.

In my experience, it's WON'T because during those times, the LAST thing they want to admit is that THEY have a problem and that THEY are flying off the handles, and that THEY are being unreasonable or being unsafe, etc.

Very true, same here

[struggli]

One time I caught the ex deleting text message dialogue between her and her ex.  I was actually going to surprise her.  She was in her car.  I saw her doing it thru the window.  I tapped on the glass and she quickly put the phone away.  I asked her about it.  She said she deleted it to protect my feelings.

I told her I thought we had agreed that relationship with the ex was over and she would stop texting him.  She drove off even though we were meeting to go somewhere together.  I called her and she screamed at me on the phone, so loud my ear drum felt like it ruptured.  Like it was ringing for about 5 minutes afterward.

I found her at her place having a meltdown in her car.  I got in the car to talk with her and she was screaming, ranting, yelling.

Anyway, to get to the point she said "I feel mutilated inside" and indicated that she felt like that a lot.  Maybe it was a distraction (gaslighting of sorts) from the original conflict over her texting her ex.  Not sure.  But she seemed to say it in such a way that it is a pervasive, often-occurring feeling for her.

[jaird]

One time I caught the ex deleting text message dialogue between her and her ex.  I was actually going to surprise her.  She was in her car.  I saw her doing it thru the window.  I tapped on the glass and she quickly put the phone away.  I asked her about it.  She said she deleted it to protect my feelings.

I told her I thought we had agreed that relationship with the ex was over and she would stop texting him.  She drove off even though we were meeting to go somewhere together.  I called her and she screamed at me on the phone, so loud my ear drum felt like it ruptured.  Like it was ringing for about 5 minutes afterward.

I found her at her place having a meltdown in her car.  I got in the car to talk with her and she was screaming, ranting, yelling.

Anyway, to get to the point she said "I feel mutilated inside" and indicated that she felt like that a lot.  Maybe it was a distraction (gaslighting of sorts) from the original conflict over her texting her ex.  Not sure.  But she seemed to say it in such a way that it is a pervasive, often-occurring feeling for her.

Mine said a few times that she felt "like an empty shell". This was before we knew about BPD. Now I understand, from these boards and reading, a little more about what she meant. She also admitted that she was a cutter when she was young, though I never saw any scars. She also said at various times that she was a "psycho", and "crazy".

Now it all my fault. She says she does not have BPD, and that she is just "complex", LOL.

I also found her carrying on conversations online with men that we had agreed she would not talk to because of, in one case, a clear emotional attachment, and in the second case, a guy with a bad marriage who wanted to see her for drinks whenever he was in her area. Catching her in these two incidents really hit at her credibility in two areas that I felt she was strong in-fidelity and honesty.

She apologized for the incidents. Said she would take the men off her Facebook account once again, and then the next day tried to turn the tables and suggest I did something similar. She just couldn't fess up, apologize, and let it pass. She had to try and twist it into being about me.