International Divorce - Progress Report

[Jai Yen]

It's unlikely stbx will get too out of line in front of the counselor. She and her sister are doing their best to explain the disturbing series of events that took place in December. Her sister's emails describing how stbx got drunk and hit their mother and their mother called the police. Also, why she ODed. Of course, not taking any responsibility just making it clear it happened because I would not allow her to rant at me for hours on end via Skype so I reduced contact to email only. She and her sister are in damage control mode. Won't help much I suspect.

Stbx is making it clear she wants to continue our mutual business. Her career is strongly connected to this business. It's an online business and I take care of the technology part- in other words I can shut down the servers and she knows that. Again, the business must continue for a while until I can develop other sources of income. I'm fine with that with limits. Stbx and I do not have to have a lot of contact for the business to work. Very nice from that perspective. My L and I are carefully strategizing to determine the terms of continuing the business.

Then there's the kids - S16 and D17. They understand why I must divorce their mother. S16 is having dinner with her for the third time tonight. He tells me she's behaving herself. D17 is really busy so she's only met stbx once. I'll gently remind them to be careful and set limits with her.

She plans to return home next week after the couples counseling on Monday and the business discussion on Tuesday. She wants to return next month to finalize things - at least at this point in time... .  I think her L has made it clear that there are no real alternative options that are good for her... .  The saga continues.

[ForeverDad]

I think her L has made it clear that there are no real alternative options that are good for her... .  

We always remind our members that settlements seldom happen until the disordered person has no other options left.  That is the case here and then there is the added factor that the court has stepped in as the authority to set limits.  She can still potentially and subtly sabotage your efforts but hopefully any such attempts won't greatly affect the final outcome.

[Matt]

One thing to consider is the purpose of the counseling sessions - the stated purpose, and the actual intent of each participant.

In your case, the stated purpose is to help you communicate better regarding the kids.  Maybe that can happen, and it will be good.

That's probably also the counselor's goal.

Your wife's purpose might be the same, or different;  for example, her goal might be to show how reasonable she is, or to get you to agree to something.

Your goal might also be to improve communication, and/or maybe to just sit through the meeting so you are complying with what is expected of you.  I would suggest you keep your expectations low, and don't talk much.

[Jai Yen]

I would suggest you keep your expectations low, and don't talk much.

I agree. My L and I discussed this. It's sort of smoke and mirrors at this point but if there's a chance it'll help that's fine. I'll be very careful not to get in too deep in terms of agreeing to stuff and I'll avoid the blame game. In other words, I'll be exactly who I am. Stbx on the other hand will be who she needs to be to keep up appearances (Dr. Jekyll) - her authentic self (Ms. Hyde) will likely not show up.

[Matt]

Some useful phrases... .  

"Let me think about it."

"That's interesting."

"I'm not sure I understand - what do you mean exactly?"

"Let's sleep on it."

[ForeverDad]

And stick to behaviors and each one's history of behaviors.  Most counselors don't want diagnostic labels mentioned, especially if there's no diagnosis.  Expect her to deny or minimize and downplay.  Hey, anyone would do that, but hers were not the typical behaviors and so they do exist and do matter.  Likely, though, the counselor will want to focus more on the future and any positive aspects, not the past.

She will want to wipe the slate clean and move forward, as in, "Now I know, I'll change going forward, no need for all this."  Sorry, the day to do that has long since passed and you two now deal with what is and a do-over isn't happening.  That's the focus, how to manage your separate but somewhat connected lives going forward.  If she wants to change, great, you're very happy is she seeks meaningful therapy or counseling and improves her life and her relationship with the children but she should not have the expectation it will change your relationship with her.  She would have to do it for herself or therapy would ultimately fail.

[Jai Yen]

FD you summed up what my L and I discussed. I have a really good L. She gets my situation. I've made it very clear that the marriage is over. My L suggested that if the T talks to each of us separately I show her the behavior pattern spelled out in the order of protection. Also, that I make it clear that I want to develop a way for stbx and I to communicate where we both can feel safe and comfortable so we can maintain a relationship to support our kids and our mutual business.

My S16 tells me his mother is telling him how much she appreciates me and what a great job I've done raising he and his sister. She said she plans to cooperate with our business (again benefits her too - big time) and to continue to support our kids. I believe this is true to an extent. She has some very good qualities and to all but the most intimate people she appears to be a wonderful, intelligent women with a good heart. It's easy to be lulled into complacency as I've been for many years because of her amazing ability to keep up appearances to outsiders... .  I only need to think back to some of the stuff she's done to quickly recover and remain vigilant.

[Jai Yen]

Stbx continues to honor the order of protection. She's having lunch with a friend and then going shopping and to dinner with our D17 and S16 today. She's had dinner with our S16 4 times this past week. D17's been to busy and out-of-town for school stuff. He told me she's behaving. He also told me she showed him the wording on the Order of Protection where she hit him and threatened to send him back to the US from Japan on his own- just drop him off at the train station. He, of course, told her he was not fearful of her. Again, not surprising. She's also told me via email how hurt and confused he is because of my action. I don't spend a lot of time explaining I just remind him I'll doing the right thing in the long run - even for your mother. He seems to understand and he doesn't press me to change my position.

Her additional ploy is a serious of letters from her sister and our business partner- I received the 3rd one today (obviously stbx helped her write the letter). They continue, understandably, to wonder how they can trust me after what I did to stbx- secretly serving her at the airport, order of protection and before that I cut verbal communication in December. Again, of course, according to them her behavior was the result of my actions. Classic. Typical of a persuasive blamer. Stbx can never recognize her part in all of this. Frustrating.

We have a couples counseling meeting to work on communication tomorrow and a meeting with our attorneys to discuss the business on Tuesday. She plans to return home on Thursday or Friday. Before she leaves I want her to agree to the "big stuff". Again my number one priority is the kids' wellbeing. To that end it is best to keep our home until they are both off to college which will be about Sept. 2014 for D17 and Sept. 2015 for S16. For the next 2.5 years income is need to accomplish this. That will also give me time develop sources of income which do not rely on our mutual business. She's mentioned she's willing to come back in March for a settlement meeting. Two steps forward and one step back all the way to sweet freedom... .  

[Matt]

How will you respond to your business partner?

[Jai Yen]

I reassure her that I'm working to make this transition as smooth as possible and that I want the best outcome for all of us. I told her that I know I put her in a difficult position with her sister (my stbx) by using her emails (to get the order of protection). Also, that when stbx and I are together there is very serious conflict. This conflict was too much for me to handle. I could no longer deal with it emotionally. When stbx and I are together frequently things get very bad and this conflict is harmful to our kids. To keep us all safe under the circumstances I felt I had no other option. Again, I reassured her I would do my best as we move forward. It's like a dance with the devil!

[Matt]

I reassure her that I'm working to make this transition as smooth as possible and that I want the best outcome for all of us. I told her that I know I put her in a difficult position with her sister (my stbx) by using her emails (to get the order of protection). Also, that when stbx and I are together there is very serious conflict. This conflict was too much for me to handle. I could no longer deal with it emotionally. When stbx and I are together frequently things get very bad and this conflict is harmful to our kids. To keep us all safe under the circumstances I felt I had no other option. Again, I reassured her I would do my best as we move forward. It's like a dance with the devil!

I see.  I forgot that your business partner was also your wife's sister... .  

I think blood is thicker than water.  You can explain it like you did, but probably her sister will side with her no matter what.

[Jai Yen]

True. I understand that and accept it. She'll also know that continuing the business is siding with her sister and helping her sister. I hope cooler minds prevail.

[ForeverDad]

A house is a house, home is where you are and what you make of where you are and who you are with.

Yes, it might be nice to keep the house, that can help a sense of normalcy, especially since for the last few years it has mostly been a place of peace and stability.  (For some others here the marital home was a place of stress and chaos, it was not hard to move and start a new life elsewhere without being reminded of the history of conflict.)  It's just another facet of your lives that may or may not work out but the lives of you and your children are the highest priority as I'm sure you know.

[Jai Yen]

FD in order to follow through with what I did (get her served in the airport and get an order of protection in place) I had to get to the point that I was willing to let go of the business, the house if needed etc... .  Staying married was absolutely no longer acceptable. I still feel that way. Stbx will try to turn the tables and gain back control but I will no longer be controlled or manipulated as I've been in the past for the sake of the kids, our assets and business. The kids and I will be fine. Likely, the rest will be fine too. Massive change is inevitable. I heard a quote today that really summed it up- "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room." Divorcing a pwN/BPD is definitely living on the edge!

[Jai Yen]

Stbx bought an iphone for our S16 today for his birthday. They're at dinner and she's pressuring him to talk me into letting her in the house to get a blouse and clothes. I said no. We need a court order to allow that. I told him strictly and asked if she's behaving herself. He called and I told him to ask her to tell him which clothes and he could drop them off at her hotel. If she comes it could be really bad for her. She'd be in violation of a court order. I then asked if I'm on speaker and he said yes. I told him to bring her to the hotel and come home. I'm not surprised she'd pull this manipulative tactic on our S16. If he ends up bring her here I will call the police. I warned her. I don't think he will but ... .  She's a master at the art of manipulation... .  I can wait for her to return to her country ... .  for good.

[Matt]

She's smart enough to figure out that if she wants those clothes, all she had to do was write you an e-mail telling you which ones and where they are.  And she's been living for years in a different country - somehow managing without those clothes.

So yes, this is another attempt to manipulate you.  It's sad it involved your son, but it sounds like he understands what's going on, and he's been doing OK without his mom all these years... .  

[Jai Yen]

I just called to check on my son. They're at her hotel. She's really pressuring him and telling him that I'm being unreasonable. She not only needs some clothes but stuff in the office. I told him again that she can not come back here. If she does the police will be called. Now he's caught in the middle. I told him to come home now. She needs to talk to her L about coming to this house. Man, that women is insufferable... .  I hope she gives up soon or I'll have to call my friend to help him- he's likely in her room ... .  again a violation of the order... .  I'm really POed.

[Matt]

Tell your lawyer what she's doing.  He may advise you to inform the court.

Maybe also time to end contact between her and the kids.  You set a boundary and she is violating it;  you need to maintain it or she'll go further.

[Jai Yen]

I just got word my S16 is leaving her room. I texted and told him this will be really bad for her if you stay there. She's in violation of the agreement. My D17 had dinner with S16 and her. D17 left early cause stbx barely asked how D17 was doing - she just ranted about how bad I am. D17 said stbx only cares about herself. I've known that for years. D17 said she just couldn't handle it and made an excuse to leave. She was demanding to see them every night this week... .  No happening.

I'm ready to stop the business and move on w/o her forever. I really don't see how we can maintain the business. Sucks but I can't deal with her at all anymore.

I'll contact my L in the morning. I really don't feel like doing the couples counseling either- what a joke... .  

[Matt]

She is violating the court order and acting against the kids' best interests - family issues.

She may still be able to act right where the business is concerned.

I worked with my wife before we were married and part of the time while we were married.  Like many people with BPD, she does very well in a structured environment.  Now she's working in a government office and I haven't heard of any problems.

I would guess that your wife might also be able to act right in a business environment, just not in a family environment, where relationships are intimate.

If you can separate those two - establish clear boundaries and maintain them - it might be possible to continue to deal with her on a business basis, at least til you are able to figure out a good way to exit the business relationship without problems.

[Jai Yen]

Thanks Matt. Maybe. I hope so... .  I'll continue to play the game a while and make the rules.

[ForeverDad]

A typical procedure is sometimes called a Peace Visit where the other person comes with a police officer (who ensures the peace) to collect personal items.  However, the police have other things to do and generally get antsy after 15-30 minutes.  I can see that you're trying to avoid that, after all she doesn't live there but just visits, but your lawyer may tell you that she may get a visit to collect her things.  It would be best to box up her things and have them delivered but your lawyer may have opinions on which options are appropriate.

She's already trying to paint your actions as unreasonable.  It's tough, she's really ramping up the emotional pressure.  She will paint this as her being blocked from her Special Home.  It would be a lot harder if she had been living there.  You may have to remind even the officials that she basically lives in another country and only visits periodically.

[livednlearned]

She just tested one boundary by bringing S16 back to her hotel room and there was no consequence. In her mind, that boundary was weak. She is likely going to be testing the PO about visiting the house big time now. If your L says it's ok for her to do a peace visit (here they call is Domestic Assistance), be aware that she will see that as two tests that she won and you failed.

[ForeverDad]

I'm also thinking that the children are close to being adults.  As older teens it's possible the court won't see their mother convincing one or both to ignore their protection as a violation meriting significant action.  You can probably enforce your boundaries but it's not as simple with the kids.  As always, follow your lawyer's advice.

[Jai Yen]

It's really hard on my S16. He wants to save her. Last night she repeated a pattern where she took the kids to dinner barely ate anything and drank 4 glasses of wine. She's small so that's a major hit to her system. She started out OK having a "normal" conversation and then as the evening progressed and the wine kicked in it twisted into a distortion campaign against me. My daughter made an excuse and simply left. Then my son was alone with her. She pressured him to ask me to let her in the house. I refused. He took her back to her hotel. She carried on with her ranting and crying. I told S16 to simply leave or I would have to get other people involved and your mother will get in more trouble. He finally did.

I told S16 more about the disorder when he came back as calmly as I could. He agreed to see a T in the very near future. He wants to learn ways to better deal with her. He broke down crying. It's really hurting him.

I have my first face-to-face meeting today with her and a couples counselor since she was served. Not looking forward to it at all. I'll play the game though and be cool. Tomorrow we have another meeting with the Ls and a business L to see how the business can carry on under the circumstances. I'm feeling the pressure.

[Matt]

Maybe your kids would benefit from reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells".

[GaGrl]

So she became intoxicated and violated the order of protection... .  don't sugar coat it.  Her alcohol intake and subsequent behavior is exactly why you got the order of protection.  Your son doesn't need to be caught in the middle like this any more.

[Jai Yen]

Exactly. I'm going to talk to my L this morning. Stbx has another dinner planned with S16 tonight. D17 makes excused not to go. I'm sure S16 is going just to for her sake not his. She bought him an iphone yesterday and pumps him up by make all sorts of promises related to his future etc... .  He's walking on eggshells big-time. It's as if she's grooming him to become her new emotional support system. Sick. This sucks.

[Matt]

Boundaries.

Some boundaries were established, by you and by the court.  She violated those boundaries.  If you don't maintain them now - which I think means no more contact between her and the kids - then they don't mean anything, and behavior is acceptable to you.

[livednlearned]

Boundaries.

Some boundaries were established, by you and by the court.  She violated those boundaries.  If you don't maintain them now - which I think means no more contact between her and the kids - then they don't mean anything, and behavior is acceptable to you.

Especially now, you need to enforce the boundaries. I hope your L gives you good counsel about this, because this is probably the hardest time for you to strike hard on the boundaries. It is/was for many of us. Being a non sorta sets us up to have similar patterns when dealing with this kind of thing, and a lot of us can be too passive and let stuff slide. You've done a remarkably good job with your plan, now you have to watch all the nuts and bolts and make sure none of them start to loosen! The boundary (PO) is to protect you and your kids, and she has shown that she has no problem harming your son. That's serious -- if you can use the law to help enforce that boundary and deliver a consequence, now is the time for that. It's hard to do, but it will save you much grief in the long run if you make it clear what you're prepared to do.

It's heartbreaking to hear about your son, and I imagine that has to rip your heart to shreds too. How wonderful that he is open to seeing a T, and how lucky S16 is to have you help guide him through this.

When I started this process of leaving N/BPDx, people kept mentioning codependence, and I dabbled in the reading but didn't see myself in it. Looking back, I have no idea how that could be -- I read Codependent No More and it's clear as day. Getting S16 into therapy and helping him connect those dots could save him from marrying the same kind of person, which as many of us know, can wreck a life in spectacular ways. Just the 4 glasses of wine for dinner, and her behavior, and S16's reaction -- a therapist will know in an instant that codependence is in play, and hopefully your son will get the tools he needs to help him develop better, healthier behaviors and boundaries when this stuff shows up in other people.