right/wrong black/white and other absolutes

[Rockylove]

Another thread brought light to this subject.  I've been bombarded with late night philosophical debates on the absolutes of opposition. 

First let me explain my philosophy... .  I don't believe there is an absolute right and wrong.  As long as there is one person who disagrees with the concept of what is "right" or "wrong" there is no universal consensus.  That's my philosophy... .  whether anyone else subscribes to that thought process is irrelevant. 

The issue has become a huge issue with my uBPDbf.  I know it's part of the black/white thinking of BPD to have steadfast beliefs in the concepts of right and wrong, but I don't.  I'm struggling.  I don't care if he believes what I believe... .  I just want him to stop badgering me about it!  He has been on this kick for 2 solid weeks now and it's driving me nuts.  I'm not going to agree with him just to satisfy his need to be "right" 

What I really need is some advice on how to explain to him that I feel differently than he does and it doesn't matter.  He doesn't seem to want to let this one go.  We've agreed to disagree on several things before without it being traumatic... .  this time it's really different and I'm perplexed.  No matter what I do or say the subject of right/wrong is brought up and he wants to debate it.   

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[almost789]

This is so annoying. Why cant people understand that we all have our own ideas perceptions there is very rarely a time when there is one right answer for anything. Thinking there is only one way IS black and white thinking. Forcing YOUR thoughts and beliefs on someone who doesnt think or feel the same way is controlling and invalidating. People who dont recognize this and continue to try to mold your brain to do it their way have a problem of their own. They have a problem not respecting others boudaries.  Arguing right or wrong on a subjective topic makes no sense. Agree to disagree is usually all I say to people like that. We are individuals and i will let you believe whatever you chose, and i expect the same from others, else I think they have serious control issues. Diversity is a good thing. I learn from others points of views.

[almost789]

They also cant grasp the concept that ideas are subjective and not objective  or factual. So, right they believe their opinions are facts which leads to believe they are 'right' and they dont even understand that there is no right in subjective matter.

[Rockylove]

I agree, LifeGO2... .  there must be something I'm saying to perpetuate the disagreement though.  I've never had him badger me to this extent before.  We've disagreed and gotten beyond it... .  just not this time and this subject.

[almost789]

What is it hes arguing?  Thers not a whole lot you can do but validate that you can understand why he feels or believes that, but that from your perspective u see it differently. Unless he has some facts to prove his argument, all it is is his opinion. Which you do not have to subscribe to. He needs to learn he cant force his opinion on you.

[schwing]

Hi Rockylove,

The issue has become a huge issue with my uBPDbf.  I know it's part of the black/white thinking of BPD to have steadfast beliefs in the concepts of right and wrong, but I don't.  I'm struggling.  I don't care if he believes what I believe... .  I just want him to stop badgering me about it!  He has been on this kick for 2 solid weeks now and it's driving me nuts.  I'm not going to agree with him just to satisfy his need to be "right" 

You might consider that he is badgering you not only because he needs to be right, but by badgering you and provoking you into an emotional response, he is actually using you as a "lightning rod" for his own disordered feelings.  I've noticed this behavior with my uBPD mother for some years now, that every once in a while she comes to me in order to "pick a fight."  And my best guess for why she does this is in order to project her own unmanageable feelings onto me.  As I understand it, if I *act* the part of her disordered feeling, she can delude herself into believing that I am the one with the problem and for the briefest of times she can feel better about herself.

So, if your BPD loved one can push you to a point where it seems to him that you are not willing to concede on your belief, he can delude himself into thinking that you are the person with the black and white thinking and not he.  His emotional pay-off is that he can stop devaluing himself (which is what I would guess is the initial catalyst) and start devaluing you.

What I really need is some advice on how to explain to him that I feel differently than he does and it doesn't matter.  He doesn't seem to want to let this one go.  We've agreed to disagree on several things before without it being traumatic... .  this time it's really different and I'm perplexed.  No matter what I do or say the subject of right/wrong is brought up and he wants to debate it.   

If he is using these disagreements as a "coping mechanism" for his own disordered feelings, I don't think there is any way you can explain yourself so that he will give up on using this coping mechanism.  At best you can motivate him to use another coping mechanism.

Have you noticed when he is willing to stop the debating?  Is it after he's provoked you into an emotional response?

... .  there must be something I'm saying to perpetuate the disagreement though.  I've never had him badger me to this extent before.  We've disagreed and gotten beyond it... .  just not this time and this subject.

I don't think it's anything you're saying that's perpetuating the disagreement.  I would be inclined to think that his motivation for pushing this to a greater degree has more to do with what is going on with him.  Have there been events in his situation that may be causing him to devalue himself more recently?

Best wishes, Schwing

[Rockylove]

   I just realized that what I said could be misunderstood.  It isn't anything in particular, but rather the general concept of right and wrong.  He says there must be a "right and wrong" or anyone could do anything they want without consequences and I maintain that anyone CAN do anything they want~~that's not to say they won't have opposition to what they do, but they can do it.  The consequences are society based "rules" or "laws" but the concept of right and wrong is still ambiguous because they are not universal.  It's simple yet complicated and if he weren't so absolute, what I'm saying would make better sense to him.  He doesn't see the shades of gray... .  everything is either one way or the other good/evil, black/white, right/wrong.  

I'll give you an example.  Most people think that killing is WRONG, but there are times when it is justified by societal standards and therefor considered RIGHT.  My bf stated that if something is wrong it is always wrong~~it is never right and vise verse~~it's an absolute, but that cannot be true if you consider the above statement.  Laws are created through the general consensus to be what is considered by the majority as acceptable behavior~~external controls, if you will, for those who do not have a strong moral code that prevents them from harming others.

[Rockylove]

You might consider that he is badgering you not only because he needs to be right, but by badgering you and provoking you into an emotional response, he is actually using you as a "lightning rod" for his own disordered feelings... .  So, if your BPD loved one can push you to a point where it seems to him that you are not willing to concede on your belief, he can delude himself into thinking that you are the person with the black and white thinking and not he.  His emotional pay-off is that he can stop devaluing himself (which is what I would guess is the initial catalyst) and start devaluing you... .  Have you noticed when he is willing to stop the debating?  Is it after he's provoked you into an emotional response?... .  I don't think it's anything you're saying that's perpetuating the disagreement.  I would be inclined to think that his motivation for pushing this to a greater degree has more to do with what is going on with him.  Have there been events in his situation that may be causing him to devalue himself more recently?

You've given me a lot to think about Schwing... .  he's always on that emotional roller coaster and I'm the one getting whip lash from it!  He's always saying how wonderful and perfect I am~~that I'm so much better than he is~~that I can do anything and he has nothing he's good at. 

Anyway... .  to answer your question~~there ALWAYS seems to be something that causes him to devalue himself.  I may never know what this latest weirdness is all about.  I suppose I just have to keep from engaging in the conversation if he brings it up.

[almost789]

I understand Rockylove- very difficult to communicate at this level. Guess you just have to let him have his idea and disengage.

Its true that they pick fights to provoke you and get you to express their anger or confusion or whatever they want to project onto you so  makes them feel better.

[Rockylove]

Its true that they pick fights to provoke you and get you to express their anger or confusion or whatever they want to project onto you so  makes them feel better.

Indeed, LifeGO2!  I see this happening often and when we first met, I slipped back into some terrible co-dependent habits where I assumed responsibility and fell over myself apologizing.  When I recognized what I was doing, I made a switch which confused him, but he seemed to respond in a positive manner.  I feel like he's constantly testing me to see how far he can push before cracking.  I have to stand firm.  He said that one of the reasons he loves me is because I'm strong... .  I have to remember that when he's working my last nerve!