Contact during separation

[Mike_confused]

Has anyone had reasonable success with reconciling with their BPD spouse after a separation?  Was there limited or no contact during the separation?   How did communication restart?

[Mike_confused]

I ask the question of how communication restarted because I get sporadic text messages from my wife with BPD.  Mundane stuff, but still... .  

[Mike_confused]

So I talked to my uBPD wife for 30 minutes.   I have not seen her in 3 1/2 weeks.   Living separately at the moment.  We talked about her health issues. Usual stuff.   I am even more confused.

[tuum est61]

Has anyone had reasonable success with reconciling with their BPD spouse after a separation?  Was there limited or no contact during the separation?   How did communication restart?

Communication starts how it always starts with a person with BPD - with their problems.

Did she ask you to do anything about her health issues? How did you respond?

Im confused because I thought you were in marital counselling yet you havent not seen her in 3 1/2 weeks And are you still in joint marital counseling?

[Mike_confused]

We were in marital counseling last summer.   It was going well for 8 sessions until she sabotaged it by announcing that she didn't trust me and I hadn't earned her trust.   Maybe you have me confused with someone else on the message Boards.   

The conversation did start with her stuff.    All her stuff.  Yeah I know, I know.   I was always reminded that 'its not all about me" if I related anything I have going on personally with me.   For the past three weeks I have been trying to remember what actually is about me.

[tuum est61]

Okay, thanks for the clarificartion about the counseling. Not a surprise it didn't go well - it often doesn't where BPD is involved.  

I am still wondering - on your call last night did she ask you to do anything about her health issues and how did you respond?

[Mike_confused]

She actually didn't ask me to do anything... .  my sense was that she was attempting to draw me out.   I always went to her MD appointments with her - at her request.   So like I was saying, I think she was/is looking for me to offer her some sort of support, probable just moral support.   He family is of no help to her, and her friends rarely are (she recycles her friendships on a regular basis - ALL of them) so I think she has anxiety that I am not right next to her at the moment.

She drove me away - what did she expect?

[tuum est61]

Kudos to you that you weren't drawn out.   

Next step will not being available if she directly asks for you to accompany her in the future. Feel free to give her "moral support" - in the form of validating comments as to her feelings about the challenges she faces - including those brought on because you don't take her to her appointments anymore.  

What are you doing for yourself now that you aren't taking her to her medical apps - and other things you used to do for her?

[Mike_confused]

I am really not doing much for myself, other than not exposing myself to constant mixed messages and statements about what an inept husband I am.   Viewed in that light, I really am doing something for myself - I am not with her at the moment.

[Mike_confused]

So she, my uBPD wife, called me just a short while ago to ask if I was transferring money to our direct account.  Apparently she still needs my money and knows today is payday.  She then tells me I am stressing her out because I asked if you wanted to have dinner sometime.   She tells me that I keep asking her.   This was the first time.

[Mike_confused]

OK... .  I am so confused.  More than ever.  My uBPD wife called me back just now to tell me she hit a car in the parking lot of her doctor's office.   She is crying.  I ask what do you need me to help you with.   She tells me the stress is killing her.   What she considers to be stress is what I consider a disagreement on the mound at a little league game.

She just told me 20 minutes ago I need to not stress her out - I have barely spoken to her in 4 weeks.  I have been nothing but pleasant and upbeat.   She said I can't be bothering her.

If that is the case, then why call me the very second you need help?  Maybe she really does consider me to be superman - she said that a month ago.

I am not sure what to make of this.

[Mike_confused]

uBPD wife called a third time.  To say she was OK but couldn't understand why I wanted to go to dinner because it wouldn't change anything.  I said "OK then forget I asked".  She continued by saying that she could not understand why I would ask.  I left it at that.  She said it would not change anything.

Help me here someone... .  is this push/pull?   She has always immediately called when ever  anything stressful happens as if I am her only means of support - any kind of support.  I actually am the most supportive person by far in her life for many many years.

Why on one hand would my lovely uBPD wife call me so I can console her, and then in the next breath say nothing is going to help resolve the issues before us?

I have read plenty on BPD by now... .  nevertheless I am befuddled.

[AbayaLady]

I'm no expert and I am in pretty much the EXACT situation you're in right now. What this is (to my knowledge) is her panicking. My uBPDh can cycle in a matter of hours, going from "I know how much I hurt you, I want a chance to reconcile" to "I was thinking about dating other women" and "I've never fought for anyone, never will".

She needs control so badly and she'll do whatever she needs to in order to get your attention and then reject you as soon as possible because in her mind, she can't possibly be good enough to deserve you and if that's true, then you're crazy/stupid/unworthy because you want to be with her, so she justifies pushing you away. Which causes her to panic and pull again. It's classic Push/Pull.

It's weird. It's impossible to understand. It's exasperating. It's scary. It's BPD.

I should make a t-shirt!

To end on a more helpful note, my therapist gave me something to say the next time this happened that I can't wait to try out. The line is "I can't be both your support system and the object of your resentment". I want to add, "Pick one." Of course, this is all based in logic but it does point toward setting a limit in a way. 

[Mike_confused]

Oh wow are you on the money.

[Mike_confused]

My uBPD wife called me again a 4th time and a 5th time today to tell me I had an important phone call.  She also sent three text messages in between those phone calls.   

During the third phone call she tells me how she has learned so much during her "Recovery Support Group" at church.   She tells me how she has learned so much and is changing her life because of them.   Says she is giving up all drinking and staying away from anyone that drinks.  I must add here that she has maybe one a month and I have 2 drinks on either a Friday or Saturday night.  I am beginning to understand this BPD problem with "sense of self".   She does take on the thoughts and opinions of whomever she spends time with.  This pervasive feeling of emptiness is why she continues to attend church 4 or 5 days a week (NOTE PLEASE... .  I am a Christian myself) and it never seems to be enough. 

My heart breaks for my wife... .  no matter how hard anyone tries to save her, she won't let them and does not even realize that she won't.

[tuum est61]

It has to be difficult - and particularly lonely - out there in that cabin for 3 weeks.   Your wife is lonely too. You love each other and miss each other - regardless of her painting you black as "inept" and you being fully aware of her BPD. The phone calls today are definitely her effort to pull you back. 

As I recall from reading your story,  this has been your longest separation.  What do you

think will happen next? 

[Mike_confused]

What will happen next?  I am not sure... .  it may take a while longer.  On the bright side, the cabin does have satellite TV.    I cannot go back with her at this minute... .  my my is exhausted.   Also,  she has not asked me to come back.   She said there is nothing to talk about between us and then calls me 5 times!   You would think that EVEN my wife with uBPD would see the IRONY in that!

I am trying to clear my head honestly.   I think its combat fatigue of a sort.

[Lady31]

What she is saying and doing looks like this to me:

There is nothing between you and me, so don't put the expectations and responsibilty on me to behave like a loving partner.  I have nothing to give you and don't want to make that commitment to you.  BUT... .  I still need you for things, and I am testing to see what I can get from you WITHOUT being required to be a loving, commited partner. 

Will you still comfort me when I am lonely, afraid, or upset?  I will call and test it out and see.  Sometimes I will even call about insignificant things and closely study your response so I can see how receptive you are to me before I start asking for your help.

Will you still be responsible for me and help meet my needs financially even though I am not willing to be a loving, commited partner?  I will test it out and see.  Sometimes I will just come out and ask, after I have had other conversations with you and feel it is safe to do so.  Other times, I will manipulate and cry & tell you all the horrible things that happened to me to prime you to give me what I want and/or OFFER it yourself.  Sometimes this is not even on a conscience level - as I have been using and manipulating people so long, sometimes I don't even NOTICE when I am doing it.  Sometimes I DO notice I am doing it.

If you start questioning what is going on, say that I am sending mixed signals OR start moving toward me and us reconciling because you think there is hope after my behaviour - I will swiftly lay blame on you.  I will remind you that I TOLD you there was nothing there from the beginning (as though this response from you because of my behaviour came soley from you and not because I sent any signals from my end.) 

Sometimes I will move toward you with responses that ARE encouraging of reconcile, or even reconcile - especially if I am at a needy point in my emotional cyle and even more so if you set boundaries that require me to be in a loving, commited relationship to be able to get things from you.  If you set those boundaries and I can't just use you as easily - then I could potentially reconcile for a season - until I get past that needy, panicky place and I don't NEED you anymore.  Then, because of the guilt and because I look like a shallow, abusive human being - I will start finding flaws in you to blame as to why I just HAVE to get out of this relationship - yet AGAIN.  Sometimes I can't even see I am doing this.  Sometimes I CAN.

Your level of ability to set boundaries with me to:

- stop me from using you

- stop me from running all over you

- stop me from keeping you in the turmoil of this relationship with no control or sound footing

is directly tied to your ability to SEE that I CAN and DO all the things I do to meet MY needs and NOT because of my feelings/love for you.  As long as you continue to think I do all these things and send these signals because there is something there - I can get things from you.  The harder it is for you to believe that we could have gone through all we did/spent all the time in the relationship we did and for me NOT to feel the way you do/feel empathy & real love for you - the easier my using and manipulation over you will be and the LONGER I will be able to keep you in this game as ONE of the avenues I USE to help ME, support ME, comfort ME... .  and on and on.

[tuum est61]

She said there is nothing to talk about between us and then calls me 5 times!   You would think that EVEN my wife with uBPD would see the IRONY in that!

One of the first things I learned about my uBPDw is that irony, hypocrisy, double standards, etc. were all thing that she could see in others actions - especially mine - but not in herself.   I suppose our egos promote that blindness in us as well from time to time, but we do have the ability to open our eyes when prompted.  A pwBPD simply cannot - it's an ingrained self protection mechanism.   And it's subconscious - just like all the behaviors that Lady31 described above.  Our pwBPD have no concept that what they are doing is "wrong" as they are doing - sometimes there's introspection but then they just shift to blaming you for being that way.  Trying to get a pwBPD to rationalize or account for the behavior is a fools errand. 

Take your time. Detach from her pull efforts. Keep your boundaries. Practice your validation when you do connect.  

[Mike_confused]

Tuum and Lady31,

thank you.  I agree with what you both say.  If she says there is nothing there and she is not willing to live up to any commitment, I stay away.  It is why I still have my family home (cabin really) in the woods.  She can't touch it and I will not relinquish it, except to my sons.   It has always been my safety valve and it has troubled her that I have an out and am willing to use it when necessary.

I post this business not because I am convinced I want to reconcile with my uBPD wife; rather, I post this as a form of a reality check to ensure that I do not get fogged in.

I am truly not sure what I will do.  I do know two things for certain:  1. it will ultimately be my choice as to the fate of the marriage, and 2. I will take my damn sweet time in anything I do about it.    Of these things I am certain.

[Mike_confused]

I must also add an interesting tidbit from one of her phone calls yesterday: I heard her change her tune from "I want a divorce" to yesterday's statement "I am not ready to fix our broken marriage".   Subtle but distinct. 

I am on my guard this time.


I hope.

[Lady31]

OMG Mike!  Yes!  It is a definite sign she is wanting to recycle - or at least keep the door open to you.  This could be another way of her giving you "hope" for a future of the marriage so that if you view the two of you in that frame of mind - she may be able to get more out of you.

Glad to hear you kept your place out of her reach and have a safety net for you and your sons.

Definitely interesting subtle switch - and worded in such a way that YOU are wanting to pursue the reconciliation of the marriage and SHE is the one in control/putting the breaks on it.  This is how mind control & manipulation happen.

[Mike_confused]

Lady31,

my sons are grown.  The house/camp has been in the family for 5 generations.  My uBPDwife has never experienced continuity in her family as far as living in one place.   As far as her attempts to recycle me... .  I think you are right... .  either that or she still wants financial support.

[Mike_confused]

I mentioned the subtle switch in language she used yesterday.  I did say Happy Valentines Day to her in a text.   She said thank you.  In years past she would have expected a whole grand production for the holiday (?).  A grand production that I always screwed up, no matter what I did.  I should let that go I guess, saying stuff like that is sour grapes.  My wife's BPD reaction to my efforts on any holiday and especially (gasp) her birthday was always one of dissatisfaction and criticism. 

The strange thing was that she sent me a text message at midnight last night to say thank you again for the Happy Valentines Day text.  Not typical for her.   Unusual actually, strange even.

[tuum est61]

Hi Mike,

More "pull" behavior I expect, but remember a pwBPD doesn't act like one all the time - they do respond to a change - sometimes - especially if you make changes.

I used to fall iinto an anxiety pit when criticized over not getting things right on holidays for my W.  i dont get anxious (much) anymore - I dont walk on eggshells about whether I did the "right thing". I can still get the criticism, but rather than reacting defensively or apologetically, I just validate that what I did didn't work for her - several times if she keeps pressing it - but she doesn't press so hard anymore - I am doing slightly better since Ive figured out her tastes/expectations better after seven years of marriage

Your W probably wasn't expecting much since you had been gone for 3 weeks - the text was in fact quite a bit given the context. A pwBPD is not bereft of emotion - they can understand that it's the "thought that counts" - my W does - but when triggered and dysregulated, they "lose" that capacity.  

BTW, I nailed it for Valentines Day this year!   

[Mike_confused]

Well that didn't go well.  I need a score card to keep up with with my uBPD wife's moods.She calls me to ask why I took $300 of the tax return for myself. 

A little background here... .  she has not earned a penny in 5 years.  I never had a problem with her not working.  What I did have a problem with was her controlling attitude toward money... .  my hard earned money.  I put $4,000 into our join account that I do not use this week.  I also carry her on health insurance, which she gets the most she can out of.

She says I control her with money - not sure how that works since I give her more than 2/3 of my income... .  even in the month we have been separated.  Now she can't wait to be free of me and every thing I stand for, including the way I control her with money.  She said she will be poor and happy with her low paying job - when she gets one - and without me.  OK I said.

If anyone was controlled with money, I was controlled with my own money.  I make plenty of it and she makes me fear her when I have $10 in my pocket.

To round out my series of phone conversations with her today... .  she tells me that she told her therapist and her pastor I left her a month ago!    She threw me out, insulting me and my sons in everyway possible, and then saying she wanted a divorce.   So I left... .  

Could it be that she didn't think I would leave?  Could it be that she didn't want a divorce and I called her bluff unknowingly?

My mind has gone off the tracks with this one.  WOW!  What the hell?

[Mike_confused]

I am an engineer... .  I know big deal... .  but here is my problem:  I have read so much about BPD but I have a hard time with its irrational nature... .  this is my part of the problem.

So now I tell my uBPD wife that since she wants the marriage ended I will have my attorney draft papers for us to both review.  She flips out saying I thought we'd wait awhile.

I am lost.

[Mike_confused]

My post above was incomplete... .  I guess my mind was scattered.   My uBPD wife was telling me how I stress her out and cause her medical problems and she reminded me that this was why she wants a divorce.   I said OK as long as the terms are as we discussed, I'd rather not fight with you.   She said  that I had my chance and now the terms would only suit her.

Now, this torqued me a little.  I told my uBPD wife that I would contact my best friend/attorney and file Monday morning.   She went in a full crying meltdown (for almost 10 minutes) saying that I thought we were going to wait a while to do that! 

Does she want a divorce or not?  I can't keep this up.  I love her but I will just file myself if she plans to keep me in limbo until she is good and ready.

I welcome any and all opinions.

[Mike_confused]

My 3 previous posts today represent two different phone calls with my uBPD wife about two hours apart.   From the first phone call I got the impression from her that she actually did not want to to leave a month ago, and yet it was very clear to me that she did.  I was confused so I posed this - her statement that I walked out on her (after she told me she wanted a divorce.

She sent a dozen vicious text messages after that first phone call.  I called her again about two hours later.  She was berating me horribly, so I told her I would give her what she wanted by contacting my attorney Monday morning and having him file ASAP.   My BPD wife freaked out into a crying breakdown saying I must have never loved her.  I told her calmly that I understand her being upset, but I was only responding to her demand for a divorce.  I also told her that I love her but would not be  strung out in limbo forever.

I am not sure if I did anything right at all today.

[pessim-optimist]

Mike,

have you gotten the "Splitting: protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD or NPD" by any chance?

Some of what you're describing could take a quick turn for the worse; you might want to be forewarned AND forearmed. The book describes that if/when a pwBPD feels threatened, they may bring outrageous false accusations against you, they can get restraining orders or other legal actions started against you and then you are on the defensive.

The book advises about the dangers and also about how to try to navigate the waters, how NOT to trigger their feelings and then behaviors, so you can have the most peaceful divorce given the circumstances