he is leaving (town) but says "sometimes it is important to stay" -- ?

[seeking balance]

  I've learned that asking him to explain why things are the way they are with us is not very helpful.  I don't think he understands.  I can ask, and he can say words, but the words are more confusing than enlightening.

Try using DEARMAN in this thread so you can get feedback here.  A major key to using the communication tools is to know what it is you are asking, what is it you need?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[almost789]

Of course genuine love shows warmth and not indifference. I was just sharing what had pulled mine back was indifference, not that I believe indifference is a good thing. As always, BPD doesn't work in the "normal" fashion of relationships. pwBPD is incapable of genuine sustainable intimacy, regardless of how much warmth one shows them. It seems that there is confusion that on teh "staying board" we'll find ways of doing the right things that will somehow change a pwBPD to be capable of sustained intimacy.  I'm starting to see the "staying" board as a means of coping. Not a board for "fixing" or changing an attachement disorder.

[elemental]

I keep wondering, too, how BPD is effecting.

It looks like most of the BPD we talk about on this site are not actually diagnosed.

Mine is not, but he kind of looks like one. Then again, a lot of his issues could be caused from HIS ex who he cannot get away from due to shared children. And that woman is probably BPD, she is crazier than a tree full of owls.

Also mine could be being effected by cultural differences. He is Russian, and Russian society is often permissive of men, due to a whole generation of men being wiped out due to war. There was, at one time, 1 Russian man to every 3 Russian women.

If I were in this situation, I would smile and go quiet on this guy. Patient, I would go quiet on him. He knows how you feel. Honestly he just looks to me like he is playing around inside of this circle you created because he knows he can get away with it and still have you around.

If he wants to pull the freedom card... .  let him have his freedom without you for a while. Do a 180 and go live your life a while without this person sucking up your attention and emotional energy the way it has. I don't think it will hurt for HIM to keep making the effort. What I found, myself, is when a man is complaining about a woman not persuing him... .  it's because he is being lazy about things and wants his ego built up.

jmo. you probably could use a break, this all sounds so emotionally convuluted. 

[Grey Kitty]

 

I think what this is missing is my hope for change over time.  :)oes that make sense?  I do not want to be in a sexual/romantic r/s with someone who leaves me & distances whenever we get close.  Right now, that appears to be where he is.  Nor does he appear to have a lot of insight about that.  But that doesn't mean I've surrendered all hope for change.  I have determined that I will not try to engineer the change or "save" him.  But I would welcome it.  And I think that's where some of my pain is coming from --  I have some ill-formed only partially acknowledged sense that if I somehow act perfectly in this current role, he will grow to trust me, and overcome his intimacy barriers and attachment crises.  I know of no basis to believe it can work that way.  Yet I am proceeding as if that is a reasonable possibility. That's where I think I need to do some serious self-examination.

I think you just hit pay-dirt here, where it comes to understanding your issues. Now that you know where to dig, you can find a path for yourself that feels true to the person you are and want to be. Keep up the good work!

[123Phoebe]

P&C, it so so so so so important to be who you are, be yourself.  Trust yourself and stand up for what you believe in!  If that means stepping on a few eggshells, then so be it.  We cannot be perfect, nor is it even expected of us by our loved ones; it would make them trust us even less, I would imagine.

Here's a recent situation, it doesn't pertain to your guy moving away, but it does touch on not 'acting perfectly' in a role... .    It's about being ourselves:

I spent a lovely day with the guy I'm seeing when he all of a sudden got that irritated way about him, with me; he asked annoyingly what I had just said, I repeated myself, he gave me a look and pretty much blew me off.

I asked outright if what I originally said irritated him?

He said 'No'.

I had his attention so said light-heartedly, 'Oh, you sure seemed irritated to me, not that I really care if you were... .  '   Then turned my focus to something else that was going on around us.

Guess what?  He snapped out of whatever state he was in and became present and open; he landed back on earth again.  We continued to have a really good time!

I was just being me, not at all perfect and he trusts that more.  I know he has some issues, I do accept that about him, so no need to get into the why's of what his deal was, what was going on in his head; that's his stuff, his business.  How his behavior affected me, was my business.  So I adressed it in my own way, let go, with no worries about the outcome.  And like I said, we had a really good time.

In the past, I would have fretted about his sudden change in personality, taken it very personally, talked to friends about it and ask them what they think, instead of simply handling it on my own in the moment.  It would have created a much bigger stink with my own subsequent behaviors, feeding into my own fears, had I not faced it head on. 

The comfier we get with ourselves, the comfier they feel with us

Be your true self and see where it leads you! 

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, I really hear you about being confident and comfortable and letting things fall where they fall.  In the past few weeks, I've done that more in my communication with my pwBPD, and it's felt better -- for me.  No idea what it feels like for him and I'm not really worrying about that.  He seems to deal with it fine.

In the specific context of his impending move though, I'm having trouble figuring out what that means.  I have dueling instincts, one to go tell him how I feel -- literally, to go ring his doorbell and ask to come in to the place he is about to sell, where we were briefly so happy, and ask him if we are going to leave things as they are or try to go further together.  The other instinct is to not push it, continue to let him come to me when and if he does, to somehow gently affirm that I would go further if and when he is ready, and just let him go without bringing the issues fully into view.

Bear in mind (i) he explicitly told me in October he didn't want to go further, although, of course, since then we have gone to places emotionally you don't typically go with friends, and also, after he broke up with me, two months later he was saying he always thought we would talk about it & it was his impression I had decided not to revisit the question, not him -- utter projection, but I have no way of knowing whether he is still in the place he was when he said "friends only" in October; and (ii) as part of being comfortable being me, I have asked him for coffee the last two weekends, and both times he's said no, once because he was out of town, this weekend because he's got so much to do to move, and he scheduled dinner with me this week instead.  But this after asking me to initiate seeing each other more, not always leaving it to him.  I feel like I am walking directly in the face of his "nos" if I walk up to his door, ring the doorbell, and say "are we ever going to make something more of this?"

And then finally, there is the fact (as I've written above on this thread) that I seem to be trying to love him out of his attachment disorder.  If he responded positively to an overture out of the blue to consider going deeper together -- then what?  I've said for a long time I wouldn't just plunge back in without some kind of plan for managing his panics.  :)BT, something.  He's never indicated he's close to undertaking that.  Yes, if I made an overture it could be a conditional one -- I would go further with you, if you are addressing your tendency to panic.

I dunno.  I worry that I will regret forever not having that conversation, because again, when he broke up with me, he kept saying later that he kept waiting for me to initiate that discussion (in reality, entirely his choice -- I made clear I was open, but I didn't bust down his door insisting on it, I waited for him to make some gesture of wanting to solve the issues).

At the same time, there are good things going on between us now, they are just being massively interrupted by his departure.  If he weren't leaving, we could let those ripen in their own time.  But with his departure, I feel like if I say nothing, we are kind of done.  Even though he does not appear to think so.

I'm just having an awfully hard time figuring out what "being myself" and being confident means in this context.  I love him.  There is a lot that is good between us.  He does not seem to be poised, on his own, to confront his attachment issues.  His style is so passive though -- sometimes I feel as if, if I just put these issues squarely on the table, we might be able to make great progress, but I keep avoiding them due to a combination of fear of rejection and respect for his own process, not wanting to ask him for something he cannot do.

But assuming he cannot do it, never asking him to stretch or try for more, feels condescending, fatalistic, and not very loving.

Sorry my thoughts are such a jumble.  I feel so torn between action -- but is it just action for its own sake?  because I cannot radically accept the situation between us? -- and waiting -- but is it really fear-based and unwillingness to be brave and ask for what I really want and believe we could be together, if he were willing?

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, here's a quick summary and a new idea:

• 
  
  You are afraid of him having a negative reaction if you tell him you love him and want to be more than friends.



• You are reluctant to ask him to be in a relationship because he hasn't addressed his own issues enough for you to feel safe being in a relationship with him.



• You say you are afraid you would regret forever letting him go away without telling him how you are feeling.

With all that going on, no wonder you are confused and troubled! This isn't a clear and simple situation! I expect that (in a perfect world) you want to just "have a conversation and tell him what you are feeling" as if he was a normal, emotionally healthy person.

Prior experience tells you that this doesn't go well with a pwBPD. So deep down you know better than doing that, and you don't want to make that sort of mess either

So instead of action for its own sake or no action to avoid blowing things up... .  how about trying a smarter, better targeted action?

Read or re-read the workshop on communication tools like SET DEARMAN and PUVAS. Write up an email, or a script for a conversation that you could have with him that would use whichever tool seems best.

Then see how you feel about sending the email or ringing his doorbell and having the conversation. If you want suggestions, give it a try and see what we have to say for you here.

[Cardinals in Flight]

I too was going to suggest writing a script. Or? going into the bathroom and closing the door, say it to yourself into the mirror as you would if you were actually having a conversation with him.  Sounds a lil kinky but saying those words out loud sometimes gives a different perception than actually letting them rumble around in our heads.

Yeah I did it, and it felt funny, but I think it saved me from using words I'd later regret.

[123Phoebe]

I'm just having an awfully hard time figuring out what "being myself" and being confident means in this context.  I love him. 

Is this kinda what you are feeling, without handing yourself over completely to him?

I wish things had worked out differently between us, and that we could have figured out a way forward, together.  I will really miss you.


P&C, it's so hard when you're in love with someone with this disorder  

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, yes, something like that would be a way of being myself without surrendering myself.  Thank you so much for distilling that.

Meanwhile though, I feel like I've had a sort of important though unwelcome insight.  He emailed today saying how excited he is about going.  And suddenly I recognized his emotional state.  It's the way he felt when we were dating.  This is a new chance, a clean slate.  It might be better.  There's hope.  He hasn't screwed this up yet.

I just can't be in love with him while he does that -- again.  It was him turning to another woman, rather than following through on the insights he claimed he had after our demise (that he needed to learn to be alone), that prompted me to start a long period of NC.  And now, it's like he's seeing another woman, though really, he's dating "Leaving."  His best girl.

I will be his friend (so am still "Staying" in that sense).  It's what I said I'd do and somehow I've gotten off track because he seemed to want to go important places with me emotionally.  But now he's having this affair with "Leaving" and I'm finished with being in love with him.  I can't stand hearing about his excitement that maybe walking away from everyone & everything could be just what he needs.

I do, truly, hate BPD.  We have so much together.  Since reconnecting with him I've experienced the reality of that, rather than the supernova feeling of our initial months together.  I really know him well at this point.  I like him.  I respect him (except for Leaving).  I love him.  We ought to be able to be happy.  But caring deeply about me just doesn't work for him.  It goes all haywire, his good feelings turn bad, and it's hard.  Better ... .  to Leave.

[123Phoebe]

He emailed today saying how excited he is about going.  

Ew   This reminds me of my ex-husband, who I strongly believe is a classic Narcissist, he did this exact same thing the day we filed for divorce   He truly believed that I would be on the same page as him and be equally excited FOR HIM.  My feelings didn't come into consideration - the feelings of loss of what we had or couldn't quite get to or agree upon... .   'We', 'Us'... .  Nope, 'HIM'.

What 'we had' was entirely different to each of us.      

I tried to be the bigger person and be friendly even after he moved away, but something kept gnawing at me... .   I realized it had always been about him and what I represented to him was a Mommy figure, a cheerleader.  Someone who would rally for him and build up his ego, no matter what.  :)idn't matter if we lived together or miles apart, in HIS mind, this is the role I was expected to play.  I know this for certain because of things he expected out of other people, as well.  Things that transpired during our marriage that I'd try to talk sense to him about  Not putting 2 and 2 together until I didn't have a choice in the matter for my own survival.

I love him.  We ought to be able to be happy.  But caring deeply about me just doesn't work for him.  It goes all haywire, his good feelings turn bad, and it's hard.  Better ... .  to Leave.

If your guy is anything like my ex, he's leaving because he's tired of having responsibilities.  Some of that might be about you, but the majority is more likely that he wants to be free of all of them in a collective whole and pursue his dream.  This is really about him.

P&C, you can stand by him and be his friend if that makes you feel better.  I would try and put as little thought and emotion into it though as possible, concerning him.  Make this about you and what you want in the future, for yourself.  So that you don't end up in this kind of dynamic again.

I was famous for 'looking for love in all the wrong places'.  Learn to love yourself

I don't think your guy is worthy of all your love and devotion.  I really don't.  I think as a human being he's worthy of exploring his dreams and I hope he finds his happy place, but I don't think he deserves to have you on the sidelines, cheering him on.

There are so many people right here in this community that care so much about you.  I hope you can feel it.  You have your own cheerleading section and choir!  I think it's safe to speak for many of us, that we want what's best for you and believe you have a ton to offer not only the right person... .  but the world!

What you have inside of you is bigger than this guy... .  

  

[Cardinals in Flight]

I can clearly echo what Phoebe says P&C!  You are worthy of soo much more!   

And can I just say? OUCH!  I sometimes, (more importantly recently), have begun to see in my own "unship" with my pwBPD, that I'm more that cheerleader and ego booster than anything else.  Great food for thought and one of the hundreds of reasons I continue to read and learn from everyone here in our community.

Go easy on yourself P&C, you've come a long long way, had tons of eye-opening revelations in a short period of time.  Try and just let all of this sink in and you'll find your path.

I'm still learning to 'trust my journey'

[patientandclear]

You guys are the best.  The BEST.  Thank you.

Phoebe, thank you for seeing exactly why that "I'm excited!" was so hard to hear.

And thank you for saying you don't think he deserves what I am trying to give.  You all know the problem though.  I am still trying to redeem that original feeling that we are each other's "person;" that he really saw me, really "gets" me, really wanted me for reasons I want to be wanted.  I see now that some of that was mirroring and some was his own need to be rescued.  But some of it was real, and now we've made it more real, and in his own way, he has been doing the best he knows how to do -- trying to follow his own path, independent of any relationship, trying to figure out who he is.

So for me to insist that he prioritize our relationship precisely when he probably needs to stand apart from relationships, is complicated.

Yet it is also not OK for him to ask for and take so much from me, and then not understand the connections and bonds that come along with that.

The good news about him leaving is that I will have to stop this perhaps-futile project of trying to do the perfect thing that will allow him to trust me.  He will either make that progress on his own, or he will not.  I will either hear about it later, or I will not.

At this point I have no idea what I am going to say when I see him this week.  I'll let y'all know.  I suspect it is going to be some sort of intense heart to heart about all of this because I am feeling I have little to lose, there may not be another chance, and there are things I don't want him to leave without hearing. But for today, I am going to try to iron, and straighten, and let my mind un-bend a bit doing activities that are unrelated to this, and see what occurs to me as the right thing to do.

Seriously, you guys are ... .  incredible.  Thank you.

[gail48]

SB, it's funny, these questions took me back for a minute & it was worthwhile to think about why.  You are right, formally.  We are "just friends," that's the formal agreement.  But it isn't really just that.  I got back in touch on those terms, but he immediately began relating to me in a way that was not like any ordinary friends.  I don't mean physically, but emotionally.  And it was that way for a while.  And then he disappeared.  And then reappeared, again in an intense way that is not like any ordinary friendship.  And again.  And again.  And we're sort of talking about the withdrawals, and how to manage them; and in between, he is sharing things with me he has not, as far as I make out, shared with women he's dated; and we are working on learning how to deal with his dysregulation and trust issues, and he is calling me on some legitimate issues about trying to rescue him, and we see each other and are often each other's last text of the night, and ... .  

And all of that is going to end, or change significantly, when he moves.  I don't really have a name for what we are to one another, but I know it is important to me, and it is not just a shrug of the shoulders for it to end; and that is not just what I am putting into it, but also what he has chosen to put into it.

I just wanted to chime in here and say that this could be me writing what you just wrote. I feel like I'm in the exact same situation with my uBPD. Intensely intimate friendship and I know for a fact that he isn't close like that with anyone else. I just wanted to say that I know what you're going through and how tough it is. I know that feeling of withdrawal all too well. It's no fun.