Meeting ex's kids or not?

[mitti]

Hi all,

My uBPDxbf and I broke up almost a week ago. Things had been good for a whole year and then everything started falling apart after a crisis in October. I started feeling increasingly ambivalent about our r/s. Although I love him I am now decided this has to be the end. (Unless there's a miracle of course.)

We have been together for 4 years. He has 2 children in their teens with whom I have always had strong bonds. Both of their parents are pretty unstable and so I have been a safe and stable grownup for them. I have given them more attention, shown more interest than either one of their parents. Both of them are showing signs of emotional neglect. The r/s chaos has been hard on them especially since my ex is not able to offer them much of support to cope or understand. When I have been painted black, he has not wanted them to have any contact with me although he may not have told them this straight out. I have never been allowed to talk to them before any other breakup, or let them know what has happened. I know that he tells them nothing or basically nothing.

I am thinking I might ask them to meet me tomorrow afternoon to tell them that we have broken up and let them ask any questions they may wish to ask me. I know they have spent this past week with their mother and will go to spend a week with my ex on Friday, so I am certain they have no idea we are broken up yet. I would obviously not blame or bad-mouth their dad, but talking to them might reduce any feelings of insecurity and uncertainty and allow them to voice any concerns they may have and for them and me, have some kind of closure. I also have some of his things at my house and I could ask them to give these to him, although his stuff is mostly a possibly needed pretense to why I saw them for when he finds that out. He may potentially be upset, just as easily for my seeing his kids as for returning his stuff.

What do you think? Btw, if I wait until he tells them I doubt they will see me because they will sense his disapproval.

[seeking balance]

Honestly, this is a tough one.

Logically, letting them go is the best choice... .  however, I do believe giving them the opportunity to ask you questions is a kind thing, they are kids after all.

If you did talk to them - are you capable of NOT saying anything which puts their father in an unfavorable light?  He is their father after all.

[mitti]

Absolutely, I would not blame him or make him out to be the bad guy or bad-mouth him at all. I feel confident that I would be able to explain the situation to them without blaming either him or me. They are aware that we have had problems throughout our r/s so I feel they can understand how difficult things can be even if you don't want them to be. The breakup itself though may shock them because they were so happy when we got back together.

One reason why I feel ambivalent towards meeting them, apart from talking about something that may upset them, is that he is going to be upset, but at the same time I feel that this is his own doing. He let a person into his children's life for 4 years. I basically had the role of an extra parent. I have a bond to them that doesn't include him. I usually avoid all kinds of conflict, if I can, and this may cause him to blow up.

[seeking balance]

One reason why I feel ambivalent towards meeting them, apart from talking about something that may upset them, is that he is going to be upset, but at the same time I feel that this is his own doing. He let a person into his children's life for 4 years. I basically had the role of an extra parent. I have a bond to them that doesn't include him. I usually avoid all kinds of conflict, if I can, and this may cause him to blow up.

What do you personally get from talking to them?

[mitti]

1. I get to see them and say "goodbye" although I won't say that to them. I will tell them they can always contact me whenever they want, but I know they won't. So it's a kind of closure.

2. Also, should he give them a distorted version of what happened they will already have talked to me and see that I have no hard feelings towards him. I suspect his version may be that I am angry and out of control. If it isn't, even better, as they will hear the same thing from both of us.

3. Seeing them a last time and telling them will cement this decision for me. I will not be able to use the fact that I never said goodbye to them as a reason to hold on. It may cement it with him also. I am not sure how he is feeling about us breaking up, or if he even thinks it's for real. He doesn't always and then doesn't tell them. If I have told them he will know it is.

[PrettyPlease]

1. I get to see them and say "goodbye" although I won't say that to them. I will tell them they can always contact me whenever they want, but I know they won't. So it's a kind of closure.

2. Also, should he give them a distorted version of what happened they will already have talked to me and see that I have no hard feelings towards him. I suspect his version may be that I am angry and out of control. If it isn't, even better, as they will hear the same thing from both of us.

3. Seeing them a last time and telling them will cement this decision for me. I will not be able to use the fact that I never said goodbye to them as a reason to hold on. It may cement it with him also. I am not sure how he is feeling about us breaking up, or if he even thinks it's for real. He doesn't always and then doesn't tell them. If I have told them he will know it is.

Hi Mitti

I've been through something like this (3 children under 12, I was with them for 10 years, sudden break). They were like my own children; I don't have others.

I agree with SB this is a very tough one. Like other things with BPD you can't predict his reaction, and that means you don't really know the future either way.

In my case I didn't get a chance for the goodbye. However there were enough mutual friends that I probably could have forced the issue and arranged something. I didn't. That was 7 years ago, and I haven't talked to any of the kids since. At first I got news of them through third parties, but in the last couple of years not even that. I do know, via third parties, that the uBPD mom painted me black to the kids and gave a distorted story that blamed me for why they couldn't see me anymore (they wanted to).

That's my background for what I have to say about your situation.

For #2:

Yes it's likely that they will get a distorted story. So I guess you have to decide whether it's better for them to have a single main story from their father that explains your disappearance (and paints you black), or to live with split stories that contradict each other, so that they doubt what their father says. I don't know which is better, and it probably depends on the ages of the children and their specific psychology.

For #3:

"I will not be able to use the fact that I never said goodbye to them as a reason to hold on."

Perhaps. But can you know with certainty what will happen in this final meeting? Maybe there will be difficult emotions on both sides. Maybe they already have a story painting you black. Maybe you having this final meeting will cause him to paint you black in a way he wouldn't have. Maybe it will be harder, not easier, to let go after some kinds of final meetings.

For #1

Yeah, I wanted closure too, and probably so did they. If it can give you closure, it's a great idea.  

Last I'll say what I might have said first: when I first read your final three reasons my gut instinct was: Yes, do it.

So, I go in both directions.  

It's a tough one for sure.

Do the best you can, and know that you did. You can't do more than that.

PP

 

[mitti]

Hi PrettyPlease,

Thanks for your response and input. I am sorry you were cut out of your ex's children's' lives like that. It's brutal and obviously equally traumatic for them and you. Ten years for such young children is a major part of their formative years. They would have had very strong attachment to you. So sorry. It's just cruel and selfish to do that to your children.

I think the #1 and #3 are closely connected for me in that it may serve as a burning of bridges and that will probably be the only closure I will ever have. I know he will never contact me again but in time, perhaps in a few weeks or a few months he will want to and if I have left it open I am worried I may then let him know it would be safe to contact me. I need to close that door. I am sure I will get over him a lot sooner if I do.

About #2 I believe it's better for them to have two conflicting stories than being told things about me that are not true, thus distorting their perception of me as well as messing with their trusting their own judgement about people, in this case me.

Since he started pushing me away and excluding me from parts of his life I have had less frequent contact with them. Whenever I have seen them, they have appeared pleased to see me but I know this whole situation is awkward and uncomfortable for them so they may not even want to see me. As you say, they may already have had a story painting me black or this will be it. I won't say this is a final meeting. They won't have to deal with that and I can handle it. Today is Friday and I am starting to feel stressed out about this. I haven't made up my mind yet. I am not even sure how to ask. Perhaps just send a text first to see if they even respond, before I ask to see them.

Sigh, why does even decision around this r/s have to be so hard... .  

[mitti]

I am sorry, I am completely confused about what day it is. Today is Thursday and tomorrow is Friday. Today would have been the better day but I have a bad cold and so will probably leave it for tomorrow now.

[almost789]

Hi Mitti,

At first I was thinking from an outsiders perspective. No, those are his kids, his responsibility. You may be crossing personal boundaries by contacting them without his permission.

Then, I thought if I was in your position and I had a connection to those children. I would want to say goodbye in a nice way for closure for both me and them. I don't know what the "right" answer is here. But it seems it to me it would be very difficult to not have your closure with them.

[mitti]

Thanks SummerT321,

Yes, I think this is how he might feel, that I am overstepping his boundaries. When we were apart for 7 months I once talked to his D to ask where he was, to get my stuff as he refused any contact. He then sent me a text raging about how I was seriously disturbed for contacting his kids etc. That time he never even let me know he wanted to break up but simply removed himself from the r/s by refusing contact. This time I don't think he has me completely split... .  yet. It's so crazy that he may split me for seeing his kids, for accepting the breakup, for not accepting the breakup, for his bumping into me when he doesn't want to - I mean who knows. He will split me if I don't figure out what he wants right at the mount when he wants it, and then do that.

I told him once that it was hard on his children to have me cut out of their lives, especially since he encouraged and wanted me to take a lot of responsibility for them. He just dismissed my concerns and said they were used to having people come and go. No wonder I see unhealthy attachment styles in his children as well. I have a daughter also and with introducing new people in your child's life comes a responsibility to make sure that contact works as well as possible. He shouldn't dictate to his children that they detach the way he does because he is going through a panicky state and would rather I never have existed in his life at all. His problem. And perhaps I can make this just a little bit easier for them. But yes, they are his responsibility and he probably will be upset and consider this disrespectful of me to him.

Idk, perhaps I will lose my nerve in the end. I don't want another smear campaign like the last time, but then again, that's probably a given either way.

[almost789]

In a non disordered healthy world the right thing would be for him to let you and them have closure. If he considered his kids needs he would do this rather than say, there used to it. Your right, they may end up with their own attachment issues. I wish u could just ask if u could have a closure meeting, but he probably would rage at that.

[mitti]

I wish u could just ask if u could have a closure meeting, but he probably would rage at that.

OMG yes, he would accuse me of stalking him, of being sick and disturbed and probably call me some lovely names too.

[almost789]

... .  yes I know all too well about that, how they have to make us out to look like the crazy one! That's so common.

[ennie]

This is such a classic dilemma for anyone involved in a BPD person's kids lives.  

The "right" attitude for the parent to have in bringing in important adults into the kids lives is to respect the kids' attachment--whether it is a childcare professional, someone the parent is dating, a roommate, or whatever.  This means respecting the CHILD's timeline and way of accepting and letting go of people.  Allowing a child to warm up to someone, and allowing a child to part ways with someone in a way that feels whole.  

The "right" attitude for that adult in the kids lives is to respect the parent's needs as well as the child's, as well as our own needs, doing our best to respect and support the strong parent/child bond and trust while valuing and honoring our relationship with each person, and the mantle of trust the parent and child have extended by allowing us into the child's life.  

But it the parent is failing at the parental task, then there is the question as to whether it is more important for the child that the task be done, or maintain peace with the parent so as to limit the child's exposure to drama and conflict, or whether doing the parental task may end up rupturing the child's relationship with the parent.  

In a "healthy" world, meaning one where parents, steps, and other adults can be honest about their feelings, and in which all parties care about each others' well being, this can be negotiated and I truly believe there is no one right answer, and that folks who think there is are just not in touch with the real and complex world of "blended families," and relationship change that is part of most people's lives these days.  

In the world of dealing with a BPD person, there is also no one right answer.  But there are some good questions to be aware of, and I think you have nailed them.  

As a SM of two children of a BPD mom, and wife of their "healthy" dad, here is what I am aware of asking myself when these issues come up:  

1. How important do I feel and think it is that the child get what I am offering, for their own growth, development and emotional health?  

2. If BPD mom rages about it, how will that impact whether or not they receive what I am offering?  

3. Is there anything that may be at risk in their relationship with their mom that my actions could jeopardize?  

Mostly, this is just intuitive for me.  An example is that in general, I go with whatever role my SDs label me in the moment, which changes, and is more distant on transitions from their mom's to our home.  SD8 most all the time tells DH and I that she loves all her parents (mom, dad, and me) the same, with all her heart.  She has explained this very clearly to me:  "I love you and daddy and mommy all the same, but I need mommy in a different way because I am little."  She told me this when she was 4.  She has expressed fear that her mommy loves her sister more and will abandon her with us, which she thinks would be sad because she love her mommy.  

But probably twice in the last 6 years, when SD8 was having a really emotionally challenging time, I let her know that I feel like she is my child, too, even though she does not have to feel that way, but that in my heart, that is how much I love her.  This breaks a lot of rules, and also will really upset her mom, and DOES have ramifications (three weeks after one of these incidents she told me how not important I am to her, in her mom's words).  It also threatens her bond with mom, both because it is in direct contradiction to what mommy is telling her, because it might lead to comparing mom's and my love and it is clear that I am able to do something her mom cannot, which is very scary to a child.  At the some time, I do not think it risked a major rupture, because I let her know so clearly that her love for her mom and her mom's love for her is something I totally support, that there is no competition coming from me. 

But in that moment, it seemed critical that she not just split off her feelings, and she was obviously really loving me and afraid that would make her wrong in her mom's eyes.  I also know she does not always feel loved by her mom, and so unconditional, potent love from me has really helped her to feel lovable.  In that moment, I just owned how much I really do love her, and let her know I would love her just as much whether or not she loved me back that way.  In the moment, it worked... .  her floodgates opened, and she was able to share with me in tears that what was hard for her is she really missed her mommy, but did not want to think about her because it hurt more that way, and she  likes being with us, too; but that her mommy really wants her to think about her all the time, which hurts her heart.  Instead of pushing us away or mommy away, she learned that she could open her heart and experience grief, and that her feelings could be okay just as is.  That to me was a critical moment for her.  These moments are very profound for her; she will say years later that "You love me even when I am angry at you or sad; you love me no matter what I do."  She says that a lot to me; it is a touchstone for her, one that is more important than whether her mommy gets mad, particularly as her mommy will be mad whether or not I say that.  But I have only let her know I "love her like a mommy" a couple of times, as it is too sensitive a topic for her BPD mom.  


I wanted to tell you a little about my story partly because I wanted to illustrate that sometimes what you give to the kids is just terribly valuable, and you may be the only person in their lives that gives that to them.  In particular, unconditional love is really valuable--letting them know that breaking up and going away does not mean the love ends, or that the non-romantic relationship has to.  That is a really great thing to learn.  And they can take what you offer or not, but by visiting them, you are offering it.  

Finally, I wanted to tell you a story I heard when I was first dating DH and trying to decide at what point the meet the kids.  I interviewed MANY adult children of blended families, asking what things worked and did not work with their dating parents. One person told me this:  "My dad was pretty promiscuous; he dated a lot and brought a lot of different women into our home.  I guess he did everything wrong.  But it was all worth it for one reason.  Most of the women were nice, and it was no big deal for them to come and go.  A few were pretty lame; but there was ONE WOMAN my dad dated for only 3 months when I was a young teen.  And she was an amazing woman.  She was probably the most influential woman in my life, though I only knew her three short months.  If dad had waited to introduce her to us, I would have missed out entirely.  When they broke up, she told us we could always contact her, anytime.  I never have, but she taught me so much, I will always be grateful my dad introduced us to her."  

I think that is the main thing... .  to be aware in a non-ego way of the possibility that you are an incredible gift to the kids, while also being aware that it is very painful for kids to be asked to go against their parents... .  and to give that gift to them in a way that is least harmful.  

[mitti]

Thank you ennie for sharing your experiences. Reading it brought tears to my eyes. And you truly helped me see this from a right angle and not from too many at one time. Of course this is about them first and foremost because they never chose any of this. They didn't choose either one of their parents, they didn't choose me nor did they get to choose whether I stay or leave.

I believe there's going to be drama in their lives no matter what so if I can be that safe person for them, that will love them regardless of my own feelings for their dad, then that's what I want. I understand that they most likely won't see me again after this but I want them to know that my door is always open to them. I want them to know they count for me and when I said I love them it was for real. I don't love them for being his children, I love them for them.

They attached to me so quickly, too quickly even when we first started dating. That in itself a bit worrying as it shows a lack of boundaries. It was as though they were in such need of being loved that they were ready to open their heart up to anybody right away. I love being around children and they always seem to like me. And because I would take an interest in them and give them attention they would soon monopolize my time triggering their dad's jealousy, jealous of them and of me. He would then tell them to leave me alone or make them feel bad for having needs basically. So sad.

Thanks again

[seeking balance]

I have thought a lot about this - for me it comes down to my personal values regarding parenting.  This is only my opinion, not in any way what you should do.

I would use DEARMAN and discuss this with you ex on why it is important for his kids and for you to have closure.  Fundamentally, I do believe parents should get to determine who their kids see - and if he is not ok with you seeing them (even if I don't agree) that is his choice as their parent.

DEARMAN technique, not overly emotional - use the skills.  He is not a monster, he may be emotionally skewed - but he does love his kids in his own way.  Sneaking around or walking on eggshells is more of the same and will yield the same results.  I would use the communication tools available and stay close to me core values.  But that is only me... .  not in any way a judgement on how you handle it.

Good luck!

[PrettyPlease]

I love being around children and they always seem to like me. And because I would take an interest in them and give them attention they would soon monopolize my time triggering their dad's jealousy, jealous of them and of me. He would then tell them to leave me alone or make them feel bad for having needs basically. So sad.

My experience was similar. And dysfunctional FOOs tend to re-create themselves; so being a significant healthy adult interacting with children in such a FOO is a key way to break it, which is part of why I hung in so long with mine. My hope is that what the children got from me in the years I was there was enough so that they won't create a similar family of their own. I hope that will happen in your case also. Which leads to... .  

... .  I want them to know that my door is always open to them. I want them to know they count for me and when I said I love them it was for real... .  

Of course you want this, and you may already have it through the time you've spent with them. 

But in terms of a possible final meeting, the way you state it here makes me slightly uncomfortable. You can want this but you have no control over what happens in their minds. You can have your meeting and make your statement, but you can't be certain whether they will 'know' it, whether they will understand it, or whether they will forget it when new pressures arise. That is part of the human condition.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do the meeting, not at all. Just that making a one-to-one correspondence between having the meeting and them 'knowing' might be overly pessimistic and optimistic both -- the former because maybe you've already done it, and the latter because you can't control their reactions, now or in the future.

PP

[PrettyPlease]

I think that is the main thing... .  to be aware in a non-ego way of the possibility that you are an incredible gift to the kids, while also being aware that it is very painful for kids to be asked to go against their parents... .  and to give that gift to them in a way that is least harmful.  

Beautifully stated ennie, thank you.

@mitti,

And that's what makes it such a horrible dilemma, because even after getting it down to these key elements it's still weighing between options that seem to be equally terrible.   

But maybe that's the time for the cup-half-empty or cup-half-full saying: "You had your time with the children, and it was great for both of you. And now, to maintain your own balance and health and growth it's time for you to move on into something else... .  "   

I know, it doesn't feel like that at the time. I went through some of the worst days and nights of my life over the break with the children. But paradoxically, one of the helpful things was realizing that, well, they're children, and to a large degree they were busy with growing up, and didn't think about me as much as I thought about them.

PP

[mitti]

It was solved by my now being ill with the flu. So I didn't call them. I don't think I will now as he will no doubt tell them this weekend that we have broken up. I don't want to put myself in a situation where asking is going to make them feel uncomfortable and then be turned down anyway. But I have some other thoughts on this. Will post some more a little later.

[ennie]

I wanted to add a few things... .  

First off, several people have pointed to the need not to be attached to the outcome.  I think this is critical for several reasons: First, your attachment is most likely about you, not them, and will influence your ability to just give them unconditional love.  Particularly for kids who have dealt with trauma and a mentally ill mom, for them to know that you unconditionally love them for them, they have to know that they have the freedom to not respond well and still be loved.  Others have listed other reasons not to be attached.  

Second, I wanted to tell you one other great comment I heard from someone whose parents had divorced as a child, and who had two homes most of his life, with an array of not so functional step parents.  He said that what he learned was that everyone has their own beliefs and their own way of doing things, and unlike other kids, he felt he knew from an early age that he could chose from what was offered.  And he believes that ultimately, kids choose what feels right to them, as long as they have an option.

Finally, I wanted to say that I also think it is important to honor what parents want for their kids, though I just do not see things in terms of absolutes.  I see things more as cause and effect, as action and consequence.  We cannot really predict consequences, but it is important to recognize that it is risky to directly contradict what a parent has allowed for their kids, and that if you look at all the reports of false accusations of various abuse on this board, you should be aware that with a BPD person, consequences are particularly unpredictable and varied.  And I think it is real that there is some consequence just in contradicting a primary caregiver.  The main two consequences are that 1) this can invalidate someone with whom the child is identified, which is like invalidating them; 2) developing distrust between a parent and child, and asking the child to in some way choose a non-parent over a parent's judgment is risky, because that parent is what they have as protection... .  

With my SDs, who are much younger than your BF's kids, when they talk about dangerous or scary stuff at mom's, I am really careful what I say because 1) they sort of have to trust their mom, and 2) it is important that their own discovery of where their judgment is better than mom's, or what to do in that case, needs to be validated and informed, particularly around safety issues.  

A lot of the time mom has parental judgment that is very important, such as "do not take drugs."  Mom is way too enmeshed with the kids, but the up-side of that is that SD12, who is the oldest and most enmeshed, tells mommy everything and is very innocent, as she really listens when mom wants her to avoid risky behaviors.  There is danger to children thinking too much for themselves, and if you have a mom with bad judgment some of the time, being a little in denial about that is actually a somewhat healthy coping mechanism.  

Ultimately, you will not be around and dad will, and especially for teens, there is danger in coming to disrespect your folks at too young an age.  

So, I try to validate mom as the parental authority in her home, but also validate the kids' wisdom.  

But the point is, there are real risks to taking action that can cause a child to seriously question one parent's judgment.  I just am less absolute, and more interested in weighing costs and benefits.  In your case, it is a one time thing.  The other option would be to do some of both--to go see the kids, at the same time as you email your ex to inform him, "I saw the children today and said goodbye to them.  I want to assure you that I fully support you as their dad, and did not communicate details of our relationship, and that I communicated that I value you as a father.  I will not attempt to see them again without your permission and involvement, and I am grateful to you for the opportunity to say goodbye to your children." Then you can tell the kids that their dad knows that you saw them, so they do not have to keep secrets from him.  

Just a thought.  I know this sounds risky!

[mitti]

I have thought a lot about this - for me it comes down to my personal values regarding parenting.  This is only my opinion, not in any way what you should do.

I would use DEARMAN and discuss this with you ex on why it is important for his kids and for you to have closure.  Fundamentally, I do believe parents should get to determine who their kids see - and if he is not ok with you seeing them (even if I don't agree) that is his choice as their parent.

DEARMAN technique, not overly emotional - use the skills.  He is not a monster, he may be emotionally skewed - but he does love his kids in his own way.  Sneaking around or walking on eggshells is more of the same and will yield the same results.  I would use the communication tools available and stay close to me core values.  But that is only me... .  not in any way a judgement on how you handle it.

Good luck!

Thanks SB,

Thank you so much for thinking this through so carefully. I really appreciate it. I am sorry I took time to respond, I have been ill and also wanted to think through all the input I have received here and clarify for myself how I feel about this.

I agree it would be better if I could just simply talk to him about this first, but I know that he is going to claim I want to see his children to hold onto him or even stalk him. Just thinking about having to communicate with him makes me feel nauseous. And besides, if I call him he will not pick up and then it will seem as though I chased him. If I text him I wouldn't be able to use DEARMAN and he would probably just send me a rude message in return telling me go to hell. I really don't want to put myself in that situation. He is just not in a place where he wants to communicate with me. That's the situation right now.

I do see your point. I wouldn't want anybody going behind my back to see my D, but on the other hand she is almost a grownup. I have left more and more things up to her the past few years. If she wanted to see him, I would support that. She doesn't and I support that also. Should he contact her without my knowing about it… I know she would tell me so it wouldn't bother me. He wouldn't but not because he isn't able to go behind my back.

His children are a couple of years younger but even though I agree with you that parents should determine who their kids see I believe in this case they should still be allowed to decide for themselves. He let me into their lives. He let me take a great deal of responsibility for them. I went shopping and ran errands with them, I booked camp for them, I found new schools for them when they were bullied, I cared for them when he was away on business trips etc. But yes, that sucks but doesn't change the fact that I am not a parent. But it does mean I have had his trust with his kids and that they trust me. And my problem is this - if he doesn't want x, y and z for his kids, then that is his choice as a parent. That's OK, even when it comes to tough and unfair decision such as not letting an ex-partner say goodbye to the kids. But a lot of parents make a lot of bad and even unhealthy choices for their kids. A lot of parents mistreat their kids. It's an enormous responsibility to be in charge of another human being, let alone one that is totally dependent on you for their physical, mental and emotional well-being. I have always felt that as a grown-up if I come into a situation where a child is suffering it is my responsibility to help. Where do you draw the line? I have been present and heard my ex yell at his kids for no reason at all, call them parasites because they need food and clothes, snap at them simply because they happen to exist in his presence, belittle them, nag them, be irritated with them because they don't and equally because they do. I have seen them be at loss for how to react, feel humiliated, upset etc. They have pretty messed attachment styles themselves, no wonder. At times they have come to me for guidance. I was always diplomatic to keep the peace, to not negatively influence his r/s with his kids. I am not sure that I did the right thing. Perhaps it would have been better if I had clearly shown them right from wrong, to help them trust their own judgement, help them not feel responsible for him, help them see that his behavior was not OK.

In any case, I feel that this situation isn't about his rights as a parent, but their rights as innocent children. If I will make things worse for them by seeing them, then I shouldn't see them. But if I could make things better for them in any way, then I should. This is all for them and not for him. He has been given an enormous responsibility to have these two individuals be his children, and he is not doing a very good job at all. Should he be excused because of BPD, no, it's not their fault or responsibility to deal with, but his.

[mitti]

... .  I want them to know that my door is always open to them. I want them to know they count for me and when I said I love them it was for real... .  

Of course you want this, and you may already have it through the time you've spent with them. 

But in terms of a possible final meeting, the way you state it here makes me slightly uncomfortable. You can want this but you have no control over what happens in their minds. You can have your meeting and make your statement, but you can't be certain whether they will 'know' it, whether they will understand it, or whether they will forget it when new pressures arise.

Thank you and sorry for taking so long to respond. I have been ill with the flu which also means I haven't had a chance to see the children and so neither did I contact them, yet.

No, of course, you are right. I have no power over what they would actually infer from what I'd be telling them. I meant, it'd be my wish that they know I am there for them. No one has any power over what another understands of course. I guess my point was this, if I don't see them or contact them it might seem as though the opposite is true of me - I am not there for them, I no longer exist in their lives.

My ex has a problem taking the lead for his children. He feels they are not independent enough but doesn't seem to understand that it is by being a parent to them who is able to lead, to show, to teach, that they will become independent and self-reliant individuals. He would expect them to contact me, but as a grownup I feel this is my responsibility, not theirs.

[mitti]

Today his D sent me a message. It was such a sweet and lovely message. She apologizes for not having got in touch sooner but she didn't know what to say. (We had sent a couple of texts to each other a few weeks prior.) She says she didn't know what to say now that it seems her dad and I are broken up. She says she likes me and my D so much, that I have always been so kind and sweet to her and that she is sad her dad and I couldn't make it work. And then she says she will miss me.

I feel bad, bad for letting her be the first to contact me. And I feel angry with my ex for putting the children through this. I can imagine what he has told them, no regard for their feelings and how hard this is for everybody. I am angry that he is letting his fears affect everybody around him.

I will contact her but not sure what to say. I will probably suggest that we meet, but let her know that I am totally fine with it if it feels too weird or uncomfortable for her.

[ennie]

This made me cry, mostly in a good way, also with sadness.  Despite all the anger and feelings you have, this is really good, and seems great.  It means she is caring for her needs over caretaking BPD dad's, which is great. 

[PrettyPlease]

I guess my point was this, if I don't see them or contact them it might seem as though the opposite is true of me - I am not there for them, I no longer exist in their lives.

I went through exactly this thought when my own break happened. Yet... .  

Today his D sent me a message. It was such a sweet and lovely message.

[snip]

And then she says she will miss me.

What I realized was that I wasn't going to see them, because my relationship with their mother was chaotic and couldn't work. In fact, I'd been seeing just the children, almost exclusively, for many months, and yet the mother's actions were so chaotic that it brought unhappiness into all of our lives.

Thus, in a sense, it's true that "I'm not there for them. I no longer exist in their lives."  And isn't this going to be the same for you? In a physical sense -- not counting memory, which is hugely important but a separate thing -- you aren't going to be there, according to the way her life will be unfolding (mediated by her father). The D already knows this. That's why she says she'll miss you.

And she has to come to terms with this.

But, of course, the fact that she's contacted you to say this, and as you say the father allows them to make their own decisions, complicates the situation. Maybe she wants a last meeting.

However, she did not ask for one. So my feeling is that it would be best to be extra careful about asking her for one. She may already know that it's 'not allowed' and be making her own peace with that.

That's how I left mine -- I knew they were 'not allowed' to see me, and after some torment I finally just let that be. The situation was so complicated that I knew I couldn't explain it to them until they were adults. Some day that may happen.

I'm not saying this is the same as yours; there are significant differences.

Good luck with it, I know it's a difficult choice.

PP

[mitti]

Hi ennie,

I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful comments and advice earlier in this thread. I never responded because I was so sick and then I got the message from his D and this thread took another turn.

I agree with you that kids probably choose what feels right for them if there's an option but at the same time children are driven by fear and guilt that can overshadow anything else and they may not be able to see this for years but still live through the consequences of it. A lot of children seem to have a deeper rooted sense of responsibility for their parents than the other way around regardless of how skewed this is.

And yes, contradicting the parent can be seriously invalidating to the child, absolutely. In a way these two children, especially the D have a good understanding of their dad's shortcomings as a parent, but nonetheless they will always side with him in a conflict. It has been so hard these years to watch him totally inconsistently discipline his children and see them suffer. In a way I am glad I am not going to have to deal with that no more, on the other hand I am sorry I will no longer be that safe adult for them.

[mitti]

Thank you all who have commented here and offered various angles to view this dilemma and given me great pieces of advice.

I ended up asking to see the D and the S also should he want to come along and as yet she has only responded that she will get back to me. I am fine with whatever she chooses. I kept my message to her lighthearted. I didn't mention her dad or the breakup and about meeting up I made sure it was only a suggestion to which she can say no.

[ennie]

Sounds great.  I really hope the kids can be supported by having known you, whether or not they seek you out in the future. 

[mitti]

Hi ennie,

Thank you so much for your insightful comments and advice. I feel totally at peace now with his kids. I won't contact them again and I may not hear from them again but as you say I hope I have been a positive influence in their lives for as long as I was part of it and that they remember me with affection.

[mitti]

An update:

I am not sure I should write this here because I feel certain it has little to do with his children but with him somehow... .  I hope I am wrong 

Today I got a text from his D asking me if she could call me tomorrow. I haven't heard from her for a month and I was, and am still, certain that she felt awkward to have any more contact with me after we had broken up as she indicated in one of her texts to me. He has probably split me black and though not calling me names in front of them probably made crystal clear I am a "persona non grata". So for her to be asking to call me when I was showing her I was fine with not having any contact, it must be important. And I can't figure out what it could be for her to do this. It makes me feel uncomfortable actually.

Somehow, I doubt she is calling to see me or for advice. She has other people in her life, other than her parents. He often delegates to his children what he can and ought to do himself, things that make him feel awkward but she can be tough and blatantly refuse and tell him to do it himself. Unless it was important for her also it got done. But he has never initiated contact without some sign from me first after a breakup and I have been totally NC for six weeks now. He could want a favor but unless it was a matter of life and death he would never contact me, or be likely to get his kids to do so either. I am worried it might be a favor because I don't want any contact with him and I was doing so well and I am so bad at saying no.

Hopefully he has remembered I have some things of his. I was going to ship them to him but not got around to it yet. It would be good to get that out of the way.

Anybody else recognize some pattern here? Could this be a sign he might be trying to recycle me?