What to expect in a trial with a BPD? (Child matters)

[dusk]

Hi,

LONG story short... .  

I've been in and out of court with my BPDex since 2009. We have a 7yo son together. Last year he decided he wanted a 50/50 care arrangement with son because i decided to interperate the court orders correctly and not be bullied into 'his' version of the somewhat ambiguous orders around school holiday periods. At the moment he had 5 nights every two weeks.

So we went to mediation, then had a family assessment ordered by the judge. It came out heavily in my favour. It was excellent! Family assessor described BPDx to a Tee! He was a VERY intelligent man that had a very good understanding of PD's and abusive men. He spent nearly 6 hours with me... .  was very much against the ex.

His recommendations were:

•   A to live in dusks full time care.

•   Dusk to have sole parental responsibility for A

•   A to spend alternate weekends in his father’s care from 5-00pm Friday until 5-00pm Sunday.

•   A to be permitted to be in his father’s care for half of all school holiday periods.

•   An Independent Children's Lawyer to be appointed to represent A if this matter proceeds further through the Court.


Well BPDex was FURIOUS! He raged ALL weekend (Son says) and when i picked up S7 from school he told me that 'daddy says that he's never going to see me again because you lied in court and that you're evil'

S7 was visibly upset, shaken and very traumatised. His teacher told me that FOUR mothers had come up to her on Monday, very concerned because he had told them that too.

I spent the next week trying to calm him down and reassure him. He told me SO much!

":)addy hates you and told me it's ok to hate you and to yell at you"

":)addy says he's never going to see me again"

":)addy said you are evil"

":)addy said you kicked all of your other children out and would not let them see their father"

He also told me that he had to say bad things about me to his dad or his dad would get angry. He said he did not mean what he said and did not want to say them but he had to, or his dad would get angry.  And much MUCH more very damning stuff.  He spoke of nothing else for 4 days! He was so upset and scared and would not sleep so I spent hours trying to reassure him and get him to sleep every night.

And this man is a primary school teacher!

The poor little boy did not want to go to his dads on the Wed & Thurs, he was so traumatised, so my lawyer wrote him an excellent email explaining the trauma S7 was suffering and that he was too scared to go back to his dads.

She wrote:

'My client has received advice, from both myself and the police, that her first concern must be to protect and maintain the best interests of A. This includes protecting him from psychological harm. She is not prepared to deliver A to your care tonight or until such time as it is clear that A's safety will not be compromised by being subjected to your behaviour. '.

This is a child who normally loves going to his dads place, is happy, chatty and very confident. He reduced him to a very scared anxious little boy. So I was in was in breech of the orders, but so was he for denigrating me in front of our son and psychologically abusing him.

We went to court Friday. BPDx is representing himself. He told judge that A was not delivered to him on his access days. My L explained why. Judge had not seen the assessment report, which was a little annoying as if he did he probably would have recommended bpx did not pursue this matter to trial. But judge told him off for discussing contents of report with S7 and the court proceedings.

Judge said, 'These are very serious allegations.'

Ex said, 'very serious and completely unfounded"

WHAAAT? He lied to a judge! But that is the BPD talking... .  probably doesnt even know he did it!

Judge leant over and said very sternly, "let me tell you Mr R.  you are NOT to discuss these court proceedings with the child because it will NOT go well for you, do you understand?'

BPDx says "yes". But he WILL do it again, he can't help himself.

Although he is pretty much guaranteed of losing, he wants to go to trial.

Can anybody tell me what to expect in a trial with a BPD?

He does not love our son. He just HATES me with a passion and is using the court to try to control me.

And to top it all off, he's getting MY daughter to testify for HIM... .  not his daughter, she's mine! She hated him when he was with us... he was so controlling and abusive  and was the reason she moved out at 16 but we've had a falling out and now they're the best of friends! it's quite sick really... .  and she's married an abusive man just like her ex step BPD!

So what kind of witnesses do they expect you to have? He told the judge that he was getting our son's sister to testify and judge cautioned him on that one. It seems they don't like involving other family members... .  even though she's 23.

The family assessor will have to testify to support his report but who, if anyone, would I call as a witness?

He will be contesting the report, which clearly paints him in a very bad light and pretty much shoots down every argument he has for shared care.

So what happens in a trial, what do i expect and how should i prepare?


Thanks

D

[ForeverDad]

Short answer, if you're the majority time parent and the court has reports painting you well and him unfavorably, it should be hard to upset your majority time.  Moving to 50/50 should only happen if he's seen as a reasonably normal parent.  However, stranger things have happened, so you have to stay on your toes.  Disordered parents are very pressuring and sometimes even emotionally convincing due to their sheer intensity.  Sounds like he's gotten off on the wrng foot with the judge, but sometimes judges try to be super fair and bend over backwards when there are complaints.  So beware of that, fortunately your lawyer sounds capable thus far.

But of course it could be a long ordeal and surely won't be easy, especially not emotionally.

In case he claims he never said those things and you put son up to it, you might be wise to line up some of those teachers or mothers to confirm that son said this and when, that it was immediately during/after a visit with him.

If court denies his motion, things may just stay as they are now.  Perhaps your lawyer ought to file a counter motion to restrict him even more and maybe the judge would deny his and order some of your motion.

[livednlearned]

Good insights from FD as always. There's the legal stuff in prepping for trial, and then there's the stuff you can do to help your son through this so he isn't too emotionally scarred.

Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is an excellent book to read. Your ex is using parental alienation techniques to turn S7 against you, and you need to learn counter techniques to help your son make sense of it. I also recommend Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy (because you have to model for your son what reasonable reactions to conflict look like, and this book goes into that.)

Another very helpful technique for my son (now 11) was validation. I read Power of Validation, and that alone worked miracles. It sounds like you have a strong bond with your son? I did too, but the parental alienation stuff rattled me, and validating S11 helped ground our r/s even more.

Document everything that's happening. Everything. You'll need it -- maybe it won't all end up as evidence, but it will help you prepare for trial. FD's advice about calling in the teacher as a witness is a good idea. See if you can ask for legal costs reimbursed, too. Your ex won't have a lot to go on, and much of it will be false, so he may as well pay for your legal expenses for dragging you into this.

Your comment about your ex not loving your son but hating you -- I felt that way too. I still do. But it's healthier for you and your son if you imagine how that kind of thinking feels for your son. That's what Bill Eddy's book gets at. Focus on how much you love your son, and don't worry about what is motivating your ex to act like this. Your son can feel you. He feels what you are feeling. They read so much more of our behavior and emotions and reactions than we can even imagine. And you love him to pieces, so protect him by focusing on how you feel, not how your ex does or doesn't feel. It's also healthier for you, and a stronger place emotionally to work from. It seems like a subtle thing to say, but it can have a huge impact on you. Focus on you and your son, and how you feel, and how you want him to feel. It will really help you both, especially if this is long and drawn out.

[Matt]

When is the trial scheduled for?

What issues are to be decided at the trial?  I mean, do the court documents say specifically what will be decided?

Have you talked with your lawyer about what to expect and what preparation she recommends?

My lawyer told me that involving my stepkids - then 17 and 29 - would be a bad idea.  She said that courts think asking a "child" - even an adult child - to testify for or against either parent is usually wrong, and judges look down on a parent who does that.

[dusk]

Short answer, if you're the majority time parent and the court has reports painting you well and him unfavorably, it should be hard to upset your majority time.  Moving to 50/50 should only happen if he's seen as a reasonably normal parent.  However, stranger things have happened, so you have to stay on your toes.  Disordered parents are very pressuring and sometimes even emotionally convincing due to their sheer intensity.  Sounds like he's gotten off on the wrng foot with the judge, but sometimes judges try to be super fair and bend over backwards when there are complaints.  So beware of that, fortunately your lawyer sounds capable thus far.

But of course it could be a long ordeal and surely won't be easy, especially not emotionally.

In case he claims he never said those things and you put son up to it, you might be wise to line up some of those teachers or mothers to confirm that son said this and when, that it was immediately during/after a visit with him.

If court denies his motion, things may just stay as they are now.  Perhaps your lawyer ought to file a counter motion to restrict him even more and maybe the judge would deny his and order some of your motion.

My son's teacher was more than willing to write something describing the emotional distress my son was in last week. So i have that covered. I won't ask the mums as his teacher will state that 4 mothers came up to her, concerned.

My ex is fighting for a 50/50 care in this trial. The family assessment report was not supporting that arrangement and the guy went so far as to say my BPDx's time should be reduced. So the court relies heavily on these assessments and it would be very unlikely for them to go against it so i have a 99% chance of winning. My ex has very little chance of winning this trial but his incessant need to fight and have control over me is what is driving him... .  even if the odds are against him.

After last weekend, i am very concerned about sending S7 to his fathers again... .  so is S7! He tells me every day, "i don't know about ever going back to my dads"

If it happens again, i will be going to my lawyer and reporting him for child abuse... there is a court form i can fill out and even if i am in breech of the court orders, i will not subject my little boy to that again.

[dusk]

Good insights from FD as always. There's the legal stuff in prepping for trial, and then there's the stuff you can do to help your son through this so he isn't too emotionally scarred.

Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is an excellent book to read. Your ex is using parental alienation techniques to turn S7 against you, and you need to learn counter techniques to help your son make sense of it. I also recommend Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy (because you have to model for your son what reasonable reactions to conflict look like, and this book goes into that.)

Another very helpful technique for my son (now 11) was validation. I read Power of Validation, and that alone worked miracles. It sounds like you have a strong bond with your son? I did too, but the parental alienation stuff rattled me, and validating S11 helped ground our r/s even more.

Document everything that's happening. Everything. You'll need it -- maybe it won't all end up as evidence, but it will help you prepare for trial. FD's advice about calling in the teacher as a witness is a good idea. See if you can ask for legal costs reimbursed, too. Your ex won't have a lot to go on, and much of it will be false, so he may as well pay for your legal expenses for dragging you into this.

Your comment about your ex not loving your son but hating you -- I felt that way too. I still do. But it's healthier for you and your son if you imagine how that kind of thinking feels for your son. That's what Bill Eddy's book gets at. Focus on how much you love your son, and don't worry about what is motivating your ex to act like this. Your son can feel you. He feels what you are feeling. They read so much more of our behavior and emotions and reactions than we can even imagine. And you love him to pieces, so protect him by focusing on how you feel, not how your ex does or doesn't feel. It's also healthier for you, and a stronger place emotionally to work from. It seems like a subtle thing to say, but it can have a huge impact on you. Focus on you and your son, and how you feel, and how you want him to feel. It will really help you both, especially if this is long and drawn out.

Thank you for the book titles. I will look them up.

My lawyer told me to get some help for my son. but I rang to try to get in for him to see someone and they told me that his father has to give consent!

They rang him to ask and he said he would think about it! Hmmm... .  he's damned if he does (as my son will talk) and he's damned if he doesn't... .  (he doesn't want to help his son get through this)

But he has been told off very sternly by the judge, so i am hoping he will be more controlled... .  but i know that's expecting a LOT for a BPD.

If he does it again, i will be applying to the court for supervised visits.

He told our son over and over that he will never see daddy again, so i am wondering if it is a self fufilling prophecy... .  that he will make it happen by forcing me to look after the welfare of our son and getting him restrained from abusing him further.

[dusk]

When is the trial scheduled for?

What issues are to be decided at the trial?  I mean, do the court documents say specifically what will be decided?

Have you talked with your lawyer about what to expect and what preparation she recommends?

My lawyer told me that involving my stepkids - then 17 and 29 - would be a bad idea.  She said that courts think asking a "child" - even an adult child - to testify for or against either parent is usually wrong, and judges look down on a parent who does that.

The trial is scheduled for June 25 & 26. My ex wants to go to trial to fight the findings of the family assessment and to still try to get a 50/50 care arrangement. He has almost ZERO chance of winning.

We only had our hearing to see the outcome of the family assessment and to see where it was going to go from here... .  and of course ex did not accept the findings and wants to fight it.

So it's only since friday that I knew we were definitely going to trial so I have to meet with my lawyer before April 3 (pre-trial).

My daughter wrote a letter in 2009 when this first started, saying that he was a bully, had ruined her life, beat her mother up and abused her constantly, mentally abused her siblings and that he was a controlling monster that caused her to leave home at 16 and fail school.

Now she has switched sides... .  and is siding with her abuser, who is NOT even her father! It is all rather sick.

The judge cautioned him very strongly to think carefully about involving A's sister... .  

But four months of him filling a little boy's head with horrible, hateful things about me is a real concern.

[dusk]

I do have a very strong bond with my son. He is such a sweet, loving, very friendly child. We talk a lot! I never say bad things about his dad... .  i could never bring myself to, because he loves his dad and could never break that little boys heart and tell him what his father is really like.

I do not involve him in any of this... .  i have never told him anything at all. I have never told at any time when I have gone to court, or seen a mediator, or a lawyer or anything to do with fighting his dad... yet his father has discussed it every step of the way.

I had to go in to read/ change and sign an affidavit and had no one to care for my son, so lawyer suggested i bring him too... .  i said no, that i dont want him to know anything about it.

I could never do what his father has done. I love him too much to take away his innocence.

He is an adorable boy. Last week when he came home so upset and shaken, it took me everything not to break down and cry with him... .  it was heartbreaking. I have never seen him like that before.

Poor, poor little boy. But we did a lot of fun things together this past week. I talked to him as much as he needed to without traumatising him more or invalidating his fears. then tried to talk about happy things to get his mind off it all. I have been as gentle and loving as i can be to make him feel safe again.

He's much happier than he was... but is still having trouble sleeping.  I am not sure how he will be closer to next friday when he has to go back to his dads... .  

[Matt]

My son's teacher was more than willing to write something describing the emotional distress my son was in last week. So i have that covered. I won't ask the mums as his teacher will state that 4 mothers came up to her, concerned.

Careful - talk to your lawyer about this.

Where I live, no statement from anybody is admitted, because "you can't cross-examine a piece of paper".  The only way someone can give input is to be called as a witness.

You can probably subpoena the teacher.  If you do that, it might be best to talk to her first, and let her know what's coming, as a courtesy.  She can't say no, but by talking to her about it you can let her know it will be fine, she just needs to say what happens and answer questions about that.

I think you are right to do what you believe is best for your son, even if it violates the letter of the court order, and then explain in court why you did it.  So many kids are put through trauma that could be prevented, because parents are obeying the letter of the court order instead of its intent, which is to protect the child.

[Matt]

About counseling for S7 - a very important issue... .  

File a motion to change the court order so you can make medical decisions and keep Ex informed, but without his consent.

You need to be able to take care of S7, and it's clear you can't do that as long as Ex has to agree to everything.

[Matt]

June is a long time away, so you have plenty of time to prepare.

First might be to decide on your objectives for the trial - not just getting Ex's bid for 50/50 denied, but making things better and stable for the long haul.

For example, you might propose a period of supervised visitation, til Ex shows he can be with S7 safely.

If possible, it will be best if you can have psych evals done before the trial.  You can file a motion to have that done - objective testing like the MMPI-2, which will uncover psych problems.  Propose that both parents have the same, so it won't be a one-sided attack on Ex - it's a way to uncover key information and get it out on the table.

If Ex's results show a disorder, like BPD or something else, then you can find information about how that disorder in a parent is likely to affect the child, and you can connect the diagnosis with Ex's behavior, to show that his behavior is not likely to change without treatment.  My wife was diagnosed, and it explained her behavior, and the psychologist recommended psychotherapy, which then went into the court order.  She didn't get the therapy that was ordered, but if we ever have to go back to court, I will have a strong case, because I can show that she hasn't complied with the previous order.

In your case, Ex's behavior, and the impact on S7, and the diagnosis, would all go together to make a very strong case for supervised visits, til he can show he has gotten effective treatment and will act right.

About S7's big sister, I wouldn't worry too much.  If she testifies, you can use that letter and ask her if she wrote it, and probably make it clear that what she's saying now isn't credible.  And your lawyer can ask her basic stuff, such as whether she's seen how Ex talks to S7 now - does she even have any relevant information about the issue at hand - and I think it will become clear that she doesn't.  A trial isn't about who likes who, or who "votes" for who.  It's about what is going on now, with S7 and his two parents, and what is the best outcome for S7.  So Big Sister's testimony is not likely to have much impact, and your ex's attempt to use her against you will probably just make him look desperate.

But you should be prepared to speak about your falling out with her, and explain it in ways that are credible.  If you have to say, "I made some mistakes with Big Sister, and I've learned from them." or maybe "Big Sister has some problems that I tried to help her with, but it was beyond my ability", that's OK - you don't have to be SuperMom, you just have to show that you are able to be a good parent for S7, and that unfortunately his father's behavior is not right, so the best thing for S7 - as an objective professional has already determined - is less time with Dad, til Dad gets the help he needs.

[tog]

My SO's stbxw alienates for a few different reasons. When she gets angry at my SO because he does something she doesn't like, she just frankly turns on him to SS13 and tells him negative stuff, sometimes just flat out lies. She also alienates (unconsciously) because she thinks that she will lose SS13, and because she fears that my SO will hurt him. For her, it's about fear and control and hurt and revenge all wrapped up in there together.

Like your boy SS13 has always said what mom wants to hear to please her. BE CAREFUL. This ended up extending to him lying to his therapist and lawyer and everyone else, saying he was terrified of my SO and wanted to live with his mother.

The conventional wisdom is to say nothing to your son, but that's the wrong thing to do. Then he's left only with his father's lies and manipulations. The better thing to do is to counter what his father says-without being negative about his dad. Things like:

":)addy is really mad at me right now and he wants you to be mad at me too. Those mean things he said about me aren't true, what really happened was (in kid friendly language)... .  If Daddy asks you to lie to people and say bad things about me, you don't have to do it. You can tell me or (insert other helpful people here) if something is bothering you or upsetting you".

You also want to encourage your son to tell his dad to stop saying bad stuff about you, and to continue his visits with him, if not, your X will say YOU are alienating S from him. Definitely do read Divorce Poison and Don't Alienate the Kids. Both helped me a lot.

And expect your X to lie to the judge. My SO's stbxw does it all the time, they don't care.

[Matt]

":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak talks about what Tog is talking about - very worthwhile book.

As Tog is saying, much of what we're told - which may be good advice when both parents are more-or-less healthy - "take the high road no matter what" - is not what Warshak recommends when the other parent has a psychological disorder and is engaging in alienating behavior.  (Of course the "low road" isn't good either - fighting fire with fire.)

[livednlearned]

My son was 8 when I separated from his dad. I think I read Divorce Poison when he was 9 or 10 -- there are a lot of things you can do to lay the foundation for the lying. For example, I talked to S11 about the difference between privacy, lying, and secrecy. I think it's in Divorce Poison where he recommends that you have casual conversations with your child to help them start thinking about the differences. The reason for that is because your ex calls anything he doesn't understand or know about a lie -- it's important to dislodge that kind of example from your son's mind, because he will think calling things "lies" makes sense.

My son also had a traumatic night at his dad's house, and it turned out to be a turning point -- it was so traumatizing that he became more receptive to me because I validated him and made him feel safe and loved. I would never wish that night on anyone, much less my son, but it S11 opened up and told me what happened (including N/BPDx telling him he wanted to borrow S11's baseball bat to beat me). The key is to validate the feelings your son is having, and to very calmly and pointedly state the truth. Validate: "That must have made you feel so sad when daddy told you those things." "How did you feel when he acted like that?" "If someone said that to me, I would have felt very sad and maybe a little scared."

And then you tell him the truth. Let him feel validated, and feel safe with you. I told S11 I understood if he needed some time, and to come find me when he was ready to talk about it. He went upstairs for 10 minutes, and came down, and we snuggled on the couch.

"What daddy said is not true. I did not leave daddy because I was in love with someone else, I left daddy because he was mean to me, and sometimes he was mean to you. He drank a lot of alcohol. When daddy is hurt he believes things to make himself feel better, but that doesn't make them true."

I've also had conversations with S11 about his dad that night, because as the week wore on, he seemed really weighed down by it, and it occurred to me that he felt guilty for not doing anything to stop it. "A grown up would have had a very hard time being with daddy that night, and you're a kid. Your job is to be a kid, not a grown up. You didn't stop what daddy was saying, and that is taking care of yourself. You knew he might get angry, and you didn't want him to be angry at you."

tog's advice is good -- in her situation, her SS13 lies to both sides, and that's obviously a coping mechanism that can backfire in harmful ways. I do think S11 lies to me as well, and to his dad. Lying seems to be a consequence in these situations. We all have different situations, so you have to try and curb it in your own way. When S11 was traumatized, the important thing were his feelings, because he was so fragile. Now he's more grounded and I have had to come up with new tactics to deal with the lying.

[tog]

 My SO has traveled on the low road a few times and said things he should not have said to SS13 and that has backfired in a big way; however, we periodically have to have "come-to-Jesus" moments with SS13, where we remind him that lying about his father to please his mother or others hurts his father and causes more conflict between his parents. Unless we do that, he seems to operate blindly, not thinking about the fact that telling his therapist he "lives in fear of his father" could bring consequences down the road, such as having his father's custodial time taken away.

In between these talks, we don't say anything, we just try to have a safe and loving home for him, where he can be a kid and not have to care for us and worry about our problems. Without our little talks and countering her distortions, I believe he would have been alienated by now, instead, while he still tells her what she wants to hear, he is closer to my SO than ever before.

Beware, though, you will be chastised by the court. They still feel that one should say NOTHING to kids, even if the other parent doesn't abide by it.

[livednlearned]

Beware, though, you will be chastised by the court. They still feel that one should say NOTHING to kids, even if the other parent doesn't abide by it.

I think that is very true. No one ever gets their day in court. You might get a couple of things you know are better for your kids, and better for you. But the courts don't like to have one parent "win." I am fully expecting to be chastised for "alienating" S11, just because N/BPDxh says that I do. Hopefully, though, the tongue lashing is more for show, and the judge awards the stable parent the right thing. We can only prepare to our best abilities, and keep focused on what our goals are, chipping away at them until our kids are old enough.

[dusk]

Careful - talk to your lawyer about this.

Where I live, no statement from anybody is admitted, because "you can't cross-examine a piece of paper".  The only way someone can give input is to be called as a witness.

You can probably subpoena the teacher.  If you do that, it might be best to talk to her first, and let her know what's coming, as a courtesy.  She can't say no, but by talking to her about it you can let her know it will be fine, she just needs to say what happens and answer questions about that.

I think you are right to do what you believe is best for your son, even if it violates the letter of the court order, and then explain in court why you did it.  So many kids are put through trauma that could be prevented, because parents are obeying the letter of the court order instead of its intent, which is to protect the child.

My lawyer was the one that suggested this... .  but i don't think that the school will allow her to testify to it.  I think they have believed every letter that has been attached to our affidavits so far... .  especially the one where my daughter said he was a bully etc... .  i think the family assessor was quite disturbed by it, considering she is now on his side!

[ForeverDad]

If she is subpoenaed, I don't think the school can block the authority of the court.  I wonder though if this incident was documented in the school's files.  Perhaps the school's records would have more authority than a person's separate affidavit?

In my case, son's school (mother's district since we were in temp order at the time and she was favored in the temp order) said they had resolved prior issues with her and said they had nothing to report to the court.  However, his kindergarten teacher said she wouldn't allow mother anywhere near her classroom and she specifically said she was willing to testify.

[livednlearned]

My lawyer told me to get some help for my son. but I rang to try to get in for him to see someone and they told me that his father has to give consent!

That's curious that your L would suggest this -- it's something an L should know, that getting consent from both parents for T is standard. It may be worth following up with your L. Like Matt said, there could be something you file, even as an emergency motion, so that your son can get help from a T.

Parents can do a lot, but there is something about a good T that can really help. Our kids experience some severe, life-changing emotional wounding with BPD parents, and the right therapist can make all the difference in helping them turn it around. My judge and family court likes to see everyone in therapy when there is a high-conflict divorce.

[Matt]

My lawyer told me to get some help for my son. but I rang to try to get in for him to see someone and they told me that his father has to give consent!

That's curious that your L would suggest this -- it's something an L should know, that getting consent from both parents for T is standard. It may be worth following up with your L. Like Matt said, there could be something you file, even as an emergency motion, so that your son can get help from a T.

Parents can do a lot, but there is something about a good T that can really help. Our kids experience some severe, life-changing emotional wounding with BPD parents, and the right therapist can make all the difference in helping them turn it around. My judge and family court likes to see everyone in therapy when there is a high-conflict divorce.

I'm not sure how "standard" it is... .  seems to depend on where you live and maybe on the therapist's judgement... .  

Shortly after we separated - at a period of high conflict between my wife and me - I was concerned about the kids - then 8 and 10 - so I talked with the school counselor, who recommended her predecessor, now in private practice.  I took the kids to see her regularly for a few years.  When I first contacted her, I told her the basics, but I didn't present it as "me vs. Mom" so much as "the kids are under stress".  And talking to the kids, I didn't tell them "You have problems and need to be fixed", I just presented it as, "Ms. Counselor does this for a living - helping kids at stressful times - giving you ideas for how to deal with stuff".  (D10 took to it like a fish to water, but S8 not so much.  Still... .  )

After a few sessions, the counselor asked if I minded if she talked to the kids' mom, and I said no, and gave her my wife's contact information.  I don't know if they ever talked, or what about - I never asked.  I just viewed it the same as taking the kids to the doctor or dentist - if they need to get a checkup, or have their teeth cleaned, you take them - you don't wait til it's a problem.

In court, of course, my wife's lawyer tried to make an issue of it, but I just explained what I had done and why - and said the counselor was recommended by the school counselor, so I hadn't shopped for somebody who would take my side.  The Custody Evaluator contacted the counselor, and got a brief report.  The court said the kids should keep seeing the counselor, but that my wife should pay part of the cost.  No bad results for me at all.

So... .  I wouldn't hesitate to just find a counselor - with a reference if possible, so you won't look like you shopped for someone to take your side - and take them.  Don't tell the kids not to tell the other parent - they probably will, sooner or later, and that's fine.  But don't ask the other parent's permission.  If the counselor insists on both parents' permission, and if you can't get that, find another counselor.

[livednlearned]

Yeah, maybe it's different depending on where you live.

When I first took S11 to see a T, my L told me to make sure I had N/BPDx's permission. That may have been more important at the beginning of our case.

Later, I was told to do what was best for S11. Even if I was in contempt of court.

Like Matt says, you can probably find a T and phrase things in a way that doesn't bring up the permission issue. If anyone in court asks you why you did it without permission, you say, "It was in the best interests of my child. I knew he was experiencing a lot of anxiety and stress, and believed a therapist could help him learn helpful skills in coping with his feelings."

[dusk]

I found a child psychologist who will see my son  this thursday and they said they do not need the other parents permission, just that if he wanted to see his files, he was able to. i said i have no problem with that. This is not about me getting someone on my side, this is about like what you said Matt, to get some help for my son for a very stressful time.

My son has completely changed from a happy, chatty, well balanced 7yo to a scared, anxious child. He told me tonight, 'if i have to put it on a scale of 1 to 100, i would be 89 nervous and 95 scared to go back to dads house'

He wants me to dress him, wash him and feed him. He does not want to go back to school when he loved school and his schoolwork has gone downhill.

He is meant to go back there on friday and he DOES NOT want to go... .  how can i send him there to be abused again? He will completely lose his trust in me too... .  if i don't protect him.

I don't know what to do... .  

[livednlearned]

My son has completely changed from a happy, chatty, well balanced 7yo to a scared, anxious child. He told me tonight, 'if i have to put it on a scale of 1 to 100, i would be 89 nervous and 95 scared to go back to dads house'

He wants me to dress him, wash him and feed him. He does not want to go back to school when he loved school and his schoolwork has gone downhill.

He is meant to go back there on friday and he DOES NOT want to go... .  how can i send him there to be abused again? He will completely lose his trust in me too... .  if i don't protect him.

I don't know what to do... .  

My son went through a traumatic overnight at N/BPDxh's. My L filed an emergency motion to suspend visitation right away. Can you ask your L for that? Get your son in to see a T as soon as possible, and see if your L will file an emergency motion for you. 

If that doesn't get taken care of by the weekend, you have the choice to be in contempt of court. Family courts treat them like parking tickets, especially at the beginning of a case. Check with your L about whether that's a good idea for your case. No decent L will tell you to put your child at risk -- there are things you can do, and your L can do, to cover your decision. I am technically in contempt of court for preventing S11 from seeing his dad for 6 weeks (we were waiting for the hearing), but my L said if the judge pushes this, I will back you up. Sometimes you have to do the "wrong" thing in order to make sure the "right" thing happens, even if it means putting yourself at legal risk.

[Matt]

One option is to ask your attorney, "Should I do this?".

Another option is to do it and tell the attorney afterward.

And another option is to tell the attorney, "I'm going to do this and I need you to deal with the fallout."

Attorneys usually tell you to do the right legal thing, which might not be the right thing for the child.  So I would opt for #2 or #3.  Don't let your parenting be driven by legal fine points;  as LnL says, there is little risk of the court throwing the book at you for taking your child to the doctor.

Remember, a therapist is a medical professional, like a doctor or a dentist.  You have good reason to believe that your child needs health care.  It's hard to imagine the court thinking that you did wrong in getting your child the help he needs.

[livednlearned]

One option is to ask your attorney, "Should I do this?".

Another option is to do it and tell the attorney afterward.

And another option is to tell the attorney, "I'm going to do this and I need you to deal with the fallout."

Attorneys usually tell you to do the right legal thing, which might not be the right thing for the child.  So I would opt for #2 or #3.  :)on't let your parenting be driven by legal fine points;  as LnL says, there is little risk of the court throwing the book at you for taking your child to the doctor.

Remember, a therapist is a medical professional, like a doctor or a dentist.  You have good reason to believe that your child needs health care.  It's hard to imagine the court thinking that you did wrong in getting your child the help he needs.

Just to clarify, I meant file an emergency motion to suspend visitation -- meaning, to not drop S7 off at his dad's this weekend. There is a little more legal risk involved with that decision than taking your child to see a T.

[Matt]

One option is to ask your attorney, "Should I do this?".

Another option is to do it and tell the attorney afterward.

And another option is to tell the attorney, "I'm going to do this and I need you to deal with the fallout."

Attorneys usually tell you to do the right legal thing, which might not be the right thing for the child.  So I would opt for #2 or #3.  :)on't let your parenting be driven by legal fine points;  as LnL says, there is little risk of the court throwing the book at you for taking your child to the doctor.

Remember, a therapist is a medical professional, like a doctor or a dentist.  You have good reason to believe that your child needs health care.  It's hard to imagine the court thinking that you did wrong in getting your child the help he needs.

Just to clarify, I meant file an emergency motion to suspend visitation -- meaning, to not drop S7 off at his dad's this weekend. There is a little more legal risk involved with that decision than taking your child to see a T.

Yes - both are technical violations of the court order, but both may be sensible ways to protect the child... .  

[dusk]

Thanks everyone SO much for your valuable input!

Funny thing is... .  it's a self fufilling prophecy for him... He told our son that 'mummy will probably not let you come on wednesday and thursday' and of course, I couldn't. The child was terrified.

He has told him over and over again that 'you're never going to see your dad again'

and it seems that this is what I have to do... .  maybe not 'never again', but at least for awhile until I can get supervised visits or something.

I think he knows he's lost, so he's going to be relentless with our son in bad mouthing me and terrorising him... .  so it may end up being that he loses everything, all rights to visitation.

He's a complete monster.

Today is the first day for nearly 2 weeks that the poor little boy hasn't mentioned it every five minutes.

He's been pretty happy today. But come friday... .  who knows?

[livednlearned]

What is your plan for Friday?

The self-fulfilling prophecy stuff -- I think it's an extension of projection. If he can alienate his own son from him first (by accusing you of alienating him), then he gets that taken care of and doesn't have to worry about you doing it.

It's distorted thinking, but after a while the behavior does start to make sense. My ex is doing the same thing. He sees S11 8 hours a week, no overnights. Yet he voluntarily got rid of the Skype calls with S11 3x week, so even that isn't happening anymore. And when he can't see S11 for whatever reason, he never asks to make up that time, even if I offer it.

But then he's in court saying that I am preventing S11 from seeing his dad.



LnL

[Matt]

This is a really good point:  Sometimes it seems like my ex's motivation isn't really to have more time with the kids, but to have more conflict with me.

If she wanted more time with the kids, she could arrange her life differently so that would work out better.  She has made a whole bunch of choices - like not having internet access - that make it work out better for the kids to be with me more.

But if that's ever out on the table - "It's working better when the kids are with me, so let's just agree they should be with me most of them time, and with you only on weekends or whatever" - she won't go there.  It has to be unofficial, case-by-case, so she never has to acknowledge that she is choosing to have them less.

[tog]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of action (uN/BPDstbx stopping all contact unilaterally, going to court to get an ex parte motion to deny parenting), I urge you to think carefully about it before you do it.

In our case, my SO did yell at SS. He contacted his mother who swooped in and "rescued" him from our home. She refused any contact with us for a month.  She took him down to file an order of protection against his own father and used the therapist to try to get all parenting time stopped. It was contagious and SS was unable to stand up to her. To some degree, I think he WAS upset with his father and a little anxious about coming back over and dealing with the fall-out of the incident that happened. But that doesn't mean he wanted it all stopped.

If you stop him from seeing his dad, he is only going to get more frightened and it will only be harder to go back. I understand that what your ex did scared him, but this is an extreme reaction, IMO, much like SO's stbxw did.

JMHO. There may be middle ground.