What does it mean when they don't have a "sense of self"?

[Amber3]

I’ve read a lot on here about pwBPDs not having a sense of self. I don’t quite get that. Can someone explain?

My ex (who I believe has many traits of BPD), is a talented engineer of music, knows what artists he likes, etc... .  movies, TV shows and books. He seems like he has a good "sense of self." At the same time, I saw him mirroring a woman on FB as he pursued her. (Likely did the same w/me, I just didn’t realize at the time). Seems like he mirrored us to win us over? Or do they mirror people because they don’t have a sense of self? How can somebody not have a sense of self? I'm confused. 

[seeking balance]

I’ve read a lot on here about pwBPDs not having a sense of self. I don’t quite get that. Can someone explain?

My ex (who I believe has many traits of BPD), is a talented engineer of music, knows what artists he likes, etc... .  movies, TV shows and books. He seems like he has a good "sense of self." At the same time, I saw him mirroring a woman on FB as he pursued her. (Likely did the same w/me, I just didn’t realize at the time). Seems like he mirrored us to win us over? Or do they mirror people because they don’t have a sense of self? How can somebody not have a sense of self? I'm confused. 

I struggled with this too - I can remember sitting in MC and the MC telling us that ex has no sense of self and how I have a strong sense of self - I literally said over and over "I just don't understand, she is a phd, etc... .  I don't understand"

What it means (to the best of my ability to explain) is that core voice inside us that is our "self" meaning our core values, our goals, our actions/words aligning for the most part - all of that is pretty set in stone.  A pwBPD can fluctuate when it comes to acting on this.  Over time, my core is the same - but my ex's changed depending upon her emotions.  Emotions change and since pwBPD are so ruled by their emotions, their "needs" tend to change too at a more extreme rate. 

The behaviors that showcase this trait - mirroring, idealizing, projecting, etc.

Peace,

SB

[mosaicbird]

I think unstable sense of self might be a better way to look at it. Think about it: this is a disorder where someone feels, at the core, a deep sense of shame about who they are; where someone's boundaries are greatly lacking; and where that unyielding sense of internal emptiness and lack of purpose leads them to seek purpose and affirmation through external sources (people, addictions, the presentation of the "good" self). I think there is absolutely a sense of self buried in there, but they've been taught that it's so ugly that they can't bear to look at it or acknowledge it. The selves that they take on, or build, via their interaction with others and mirroring of desirable traits, become their temporary selves... .  My experience says that even they are fooled by their false/mirror based selves and truly believe for a while that that's who they are.

[SarahinMA]

They don't know who they are- they just mirror the likes and dislikes of those they idealize or attach to.  It kind of reminds me of the film, "Runaway Bride".  She just adopts all the tastes of the men she dates. 

That's why I thought my ex was my soul mate- he was so good at mirroring that it felt that he genuinely like all the things I liked (hobbies, sports, tastes in restaurants, movies, etc.)  By the end, however, all those tastes had changed because he had attached to his new source. 

[Amber3]

You guys are so helpful! You hit the nail on the head. He once went out and got the same tea I was drinking to feel closer to me (it was a LDR). I thought it was sweet, but combined with all the other things... .  I see it is a symptom of something deeper.

"Unstable" sense of self... .  yes. He did present his "good self" oh yes. And he had poor boundaries (as did I, however).

Over time, my core is the same - but my ex's changed depending upon her emotions.  Emotions change and since pwBPD are so ruled by their emotions, their "needs" tend to change too at a more extreme rate. 

The behaviors that showcase this trait - mirroring, idealizing, projecting, etc.

Seeking Balance... .  Yes... .  this rings very true to how he acted. Totally ruled by his emotions. He admitted to lying once to make me jealous, and another time that he wouldn't be above "groveling"... .  I didn't get it at the time, but I guess he knew he might do the wrong thing and know he'd have to make up for it? But... .  it seems like it would just add more shame to their pile. He knew right from wrong. But then again, he was very good about justifying his behavior... .  I was really out of my league, I think... .   

[seeking balance]

He knew right from wrong. But then again, he was very good about justifying his behavior... .  

I think this is a good definition of unstable sense of self - a stable sense of self manages to align actions and words more often then not.

This is also why so many people complain about BPD's are bad at apologizing - can you see how this fits here too.

Ultimately, we realize this behavior is not about us.  IT is a mental illness and pwBPD simply have learned how to cope the only way they could - sad, but true.

[mosaicbird]

But... .  it seems like it would just add more shame to their pile. He knew right from wrong. But then again, he was very good about justifying his behavior... .  

You would think, but if they can't face their core shame, what's a little more wrongdoing on top of it? They can justify anything. If doing something "wrong" in the here and now can divert attention from what they won't face inside themselves, they why not? Even if they acknowledge that something they did was wrong, they will have a whole list of reasons that you caused them to do it.

My ex was one of those that for a long, long time had an absolute obsession with being seen as a "good" person. If that mask cracked or was doubted by someone, it was like the end of the world for her. During some of our last communications, when I was pleading with her to be more open and honest, and to be okay with things being temporary, with change, with the nature of nothing being forever... .  she said it would kill her to try to think that way. She said it would break her brain to think like "normal" people do.

[PrettyPlease]

What it means (to the best of my ability to explain) is that core voice inside us that is our "self" meaning our core values, our goals, our actions/words aligning for the most part - all of that is pretty set in stone.  A pwBPD can fluctuate when it comes to acting on this.  Over time, my core is the same - but my ex's changed depending upon her emotions.  Emotions change and since pwBPD are so ruled by their emotions, their "needs" tend to change too at a more extreme rate. 

The behaviors that showcase this trait - mirroring, idealizing, projecting, etc.

Great question Amber3 and nice summary SB, and also other posters.

And it seems this relates directly to what other posters have summarized elsewhere as:

  in BPD - feelings create facts;

  in non-BPD - facts give rise to feelings.

Combining this with the 'core self' idea could be interesting.

For instance, I believe that in nons, our internal beliefs, our core self, that we use to make decisions about action, are also 'facts', for all of us (in other words, beliefs with a relatively long time-span).

And it appears these core self 'facts' are much more fleeting in BPD.

Yet, in nons these internal facts (our core self) can also cause feelings -- we can loop our thoughts and make ourselves feel a certain way.

So, in a BPD that might create a vicious circle easily, a downward spiral, because a thought that causes a negative feeling creates a 'new' internal belief (self) that is more negative, and the new more negative self generates a new feeling, which is even more negative... .  etc.

Just speculating wildly. But if this is true it could help explain why they don't like being alone, and why they must always keep latching onto other people's more positive 'facts', selves, and mirroring them. It would be the only way to maintain positive feelings.

PP

[mosaicbird]

Just speculating wildly. But if this is true it could help explain why they don't like being alone, and why they must always keep latching onto other people's more positive 'facts', selves, and mirroring them. It would be the only way to maintain positive feelings.

That is really, really interesting and seems to sync with how my ex described her one core internal belief. Other people, and her relationships with them, were her sole reason for living, and the thing upon which she based her self-worth. When her realtionships failed, she failed, and believed she was worthless and had no purpose.

[Amber3]

This is also why so many people complain about BPD's are bad at apologizing - can you see how this fits here too.

Ultimately, we realize this behavior is not about us.  IT is a mental illness and pwBPD simply have learned how to cope the only way they could - sad, but true.

Yes... .  if they can justify themselves, why apologize? Yep. Ironic, though, since he would request apologies right and left for the tiniest infractions... .  but that's another thread!

Even if they acknowledge that something they did was wrong, they will have a whole list of reasons that you caused them to do it.

mosaicbird... .  I hear ya! And I used to tell him he should be a lawyer... .  if I only knew what i know now... if I only knew... .  I could have handled it so much better! (maybe?)

[Amber3]

Just speculating wildly. But if this is true it could help explain why they don't like being alone, and why they must always keep latching onto other people's more positive 'facts', selves, and mirroring them. It would be the only way to maintain positive feelings.

That is really, really interesting and seems to sync with how my ex described her one core internal belief. Other people, and her relationships with them, were her sole reason for living, and the thing upon which she based her self-worth. When her realtionships failed, she failed, and believed she was worthless and had no purpose.

Interesting... .  ya know... .  my ex takes care of his ailing mother with Alzheimer's. He was very touchy about any kind of suggestions about how or when to care of her. Even if I suggested we stop chatting (IMing) and he go cook dinner for her, he'd be like, "I know when it's best to do that." Almost offended. I think he based a lot of his self-worth on that... .  gives him purpose. I see how he was "shaky" there... .  that inner core... .  

[Lovingwife315]

My H (seperated). Told me he is so sorry for hurting me but he needs to " live his life with some sort of meaning and self worth".   I'm not sure i can understand how turning your back on your wife and family puts u on the path to that but I guess I have a lot to learn about BPD.

[PrettyPlease]

My H (seperated). Told me he is so sorry for hurting me but he needs to " live his life with some sort of meaning and self worth".   I'm not sure i can understand how turning your back on your wife and family puts u on the path to that but I guess I have a lot to learn about BPD.

Hi Lovingwife315,

It's a disorder; things make sense to the BPD, from their point of view, that don't make sense to the rest of us. In this case, I think you might find the answer to the particular case you just posed by reading about 'splitting', which is one of the core symptoms of BPD. (In essence, it means that they will suddenly switch from positive to negative about their significant other -- or, later, in the other direction, flipping back and forth -- and while you're in the 'painted negative' half, they've lost their sense of self -- which was latched onto you while you were in the positive -- and so they have no choice, from their understanding of the world -- they have to go look for it somewhere else).

This is not fair, not nice, and hard to accept. But if it happens, it's good to understand it so you can move past the confusion and anger.

PP