BPD daughter-in-law... how to best support my son and grandchildren?

[sherryg]

My son and his high functioning, invisible BPD wife have been married for 9 years, have 4 children.  She has not been diagnosed, but I recognized the characteristics immediately when I learned of BPD and NPD.  I have since done extensive reading and research which confirmed this.  

How do I support my son and our grandchildren?  I am not judgmental or critical.  Every gift, visit, conversation, question--always try to be positive, light, interested, supportive, understanding... .  is twisted by my DIA.  My son (my husband died last year) has now told/asked me and the rest of our family to not contact them at all because everything is taken by his (BPD) wife as an implication that she is not a capable mother/wife.  (We are all ALWAYS so careful to give NO criticism, advise, etc. etc.)  So I don't don't even go to the kids' ballgames, can give no presents, can't initiate any conversations, in person, phone, or e-mail.

I don't want to set off new crisis situations, which seem to happen with any contact from our family.  But I want them all to know/feel they are loved and supported, including my daughter-in-law, but especially concerned for my son and grandchildren.

How is it best to inform my son of BPD (w/NPD traits)?  I'm sure she asks him after any thoughts/ideas he might share, if he heard that from anyone in our family... .  

Thank you for sharing your experiences... .  hoping to find workable suggestions.

sherryg  

[livednlearned]

Hi sherryg,



I am so sorry to hear that you are being cut off from your grandchildren, and from your son's life. It is painful trying to deal with BPD sufferers because their perspective is often very distorted, and their actions can cause real harm, especially to the children.

You are definitely in the right place! Glad you found us. Many members here struggle with similar challenges, including the directives to not contact the family. What is your relationship like with your son? How does your son usually handle his wife? Has she isolated him from friends? How do you think he would respond if you mentioned BPD to him? Sorry for all the questions!

It does sound like your DIL is using BPD BEHAVIORS: Splitting to manage her anxiety. Have you come across other good resources to help explain what she is doing?

Keep posting -- it really does help! It helps a lot of us to know that we aren't alone.



LnL

[sherryg]

Thank you for responding!  You're right--it is such a relief to have someone to discuss this with who is familiar with BPD.

Yes, I have done a lot of reading, so basically understand most of the terminology.  In addition to extensive online research, I have read and continue rereading Randi Kreger's The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder, Eleanor Payson's The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists, and Susan Forward's Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You.  I have found all three to be very helpful.

Our son38 has always had a wonderful relationship with our family, and has always been and always wanted to be close to his siblings and their families.  We have six children (ages 30-38, our son being the oldest), all are now married with children of their own, so they have a lot in common as far as life situations.  Four of our children's families, including our son's, live within a 20 miles radius.  Everyone except our son's family enjoy getting together regularly, both formally and informally to take kids to the park/zoo/on other outtings, for family dinners, holidays, special events, etc. When our two other children and their families are in town, we get together to do things with them.

My son learned soon after they were married to keep confidential any details about his relationship with his wife, which is generally as it should be.  He has been completely loyal during the years... .  speaks of his wife's good qualities, never says anything which could sound like criticism of her... .  in the face of consistent often lowkey but at times very public humiliation of him by her in front of our family.  He has come to my husband and me with requests, sent by his BPD wife, which seemed to us to be a result of childish offenses taken, not feeling recognized or appreciated, her ideas not being acted upon, resentment of one of his sisters in particular, who was always especially careful to try to include/appreciate our son and his wife and their children... all of which we tried to accept, understand, apologize for, incorporate her requests/suggestions... .    But then when we, especially I, would try to reconnect or follow through on suggestions, I was met with what seemed to be bizarre, childish avoidance or rude responses... .  It just didn't make sense until I came across materials explaining BPD a few months ago... .  

For years we have be puzzled by their behavior. They almost never answer their phone, return phone messages, answer e-mails, answer their door if any of our family members try to contact them.  If invited to do something, both my son and his wife have obviously decided to respond by saying, I have to talk withhit_ [the other one], no matter how small the activity.  When our son tells us that, he always seems embarassed, apologetic as he says it.  We have all decided it is probably best for them to be able to consult with each other before making any response.  The problem is, generally they never respond.  And the few times they have, and have decided to come to something our family does, we don't know they are coming until the very last minute, just before the activity begins, and it is obvious they are there because our son has forced the issue and tension is running high... .  his wife usually pouting initially, although most of the time we have helped her to feel comfortable and having a good time after a little while together.

After asking what I could do to help after a crisis several months ago, before learning of BPD, after our son had come to the house saying he thought his marriage was over... .  he said it was probably better to distance our family from his wife.  He ended up going back home.  And I tried to do that.  So for several weeks I, we all, tried not to contact them.  I kept having the nagging feeling that that wasn't the answer--that we were leaving them isolated, not having a way to include them, no opportunities to show them that we all loved them, appreciated them, wanted to be with them, were there for them, would like to help in any way we could... .    That went on for several weeks.

Then another crisis came.  Our son came over to the house again, saying he didn't know how much longer things could go on like this.  Said they were getting no sleep, arguing all the time when he was home, his wife wouldn't let things go and continued it into the early hours of the morning... .     Again, I asked what I could do.  I voiced my concerns that our staying away didn't feel right to me... .  He said he was so confused, he didn't trust his own judgment any more... .    I went over to their house the next day and tried to talk with his wife.  She said she was expecting me because, she said, our son had told her that he'd told me she hated me (which isn't what he'd said, but that's how she had interpreted it.)  I asked what I had done that had offended her... .  she told me a couple of things, that had happened years/months ago--I started to defend myself, trying to help her understand that there had been no intention at all to upset her... .  realized that was getting nowhere, so just told her that I had apologized already for that, several times, I was really sorry she'd been hurt, apologized again, said it was so sad that she was carrying grudges for things that had been so innocent, and so long ago... .  asked if she would forgive me. 

She basically withdrew, I could tell she was really upset.  She said I sounded like my son, that she couldn't handle this right now, turned around and went into the house and closed the door.  As I remember, I think she still had me watch the younger kids while she went to the school to help out a couple of hours once a week.  As usual, acted like nothing had happened.  Still very cool, but never refers to the prior encounter.  Neither did I... .  

Then there was another crisis a few weeks later.  Our son again came to the house (always because he has basically been thrown out of their home).  This time just before going back home he told me he had been thinking of committing suicide the night before... .  left the house that night planning to do it, didn't... .    I made him promise he would see his local religious leader... .  so I knew he had someone he could talk with and get support from.  I also contacted, without my son's/wife/s know it, and gave him a background from my perspective.  I called the clergyman back later to make sure our son had indeed been able to meet with him, and was told he seemed to be in a much better place.

After learning of BPD, I shared the above books with my son when he came to the house again a few weeks later, this time alone, which usually never happens, to use our computer for a project for which they couldn't use their own.  I told him there was information that sounded like what we had been sensing between him and his wife and our family, that there were ideas of how to work within the relatioship that might help them, and that they offered hope, as well as reassurance that if he were being told/believing that he was the one causing everything, that that wasn't true, and he could take comfort from knowing that.  But he was only being allowed a short time at our house away from his wife.  It wasn't long enough for him to even begin to understand BPD and all that goes with it.  I'm afraid he probably told his wife about my showing that information to him, which would have further alienated her. 

There is more... .  but to sum it up, two weeks ago our son came to the house, very agitated, said he was trying to keep his marriage together, we needed to get out of their life, no contacts, no advise (I haven't been giving advise), no bringing over food, no presents, no coming to their boys' ball games once a week... .  nothing.  I told him how much I loved him, that I and our family would always be there for him/them.  He said just pray for us.  And left.

I am completely torn.  I would like to make all of this BPD information/understanding/support available to him, but there is no way I can do it without escalating the conflict in the relationship.





   

[louise 716]

Good Morning Sherryg,

I get so frustrated when I've written on various message boards through the years asking for help and sometimes the answers I get are along the lines of "l don't have any experience in that. Sorry ... .  I can't help you." When I read those responses I always end up thinking "Well, that was not helpful at all. Why bother writing." Having said that I just have to respond ... .  saying ... "I don't have any answers for you." ... .  BUT OMG your story sounds eeringly soo familiar I feel like I could've written it.  With the exception of the grandchildren. My son and DIL do not have children and my son has not come over stating their marriage is in the trouble, but the rest of your story is spot on.  We too have a large family (although younger than yours since no grandchildren at all and only one is married) so I understand where you are coming from when you write about your son's siblings and how everyone tries to include your DIL at functions. I can't even begin to describe how similar your story is to mine.  The pouting, gift situation, grudges, apologies for things we have previously apologized for numerous other times.  No doubt when your DIL comes over pouting a lot of energy goes into making her feel comfortable and when they leave, it is such an emotional relief.  I, too, for years couldn't make sense of their childish responses to things until a few months ago someone pointed me in the direction of BPD (w/NPD traits) and everything fell into place.

I can so relate to your thought process of wanting to let the "kids" know you support them.  Not contacting them (at your son's request) just doesn't feel right, but if we go against their wishes ... .  that won't end well either.

In our situation, we feel like if we are "out of the picture" then DIL only has son (and in your case ... .  their kids) to "rag" on when DIL is frustrated about anything since we are not in the position to say/do anything that will make DIL mad - the focus can only be on son and in your case, the kids.  What a lot of pressure for our son. Do you feel that could be the situation for your son as well?

I am sorry your son gave you the no contact directive, but I am glad for you, your son, and family you had the opportunity to tell him at that time how much you love and support him and no doubt send him off with a kiss and a hug. I know the heartache this causes.

I am building my BPD (w/NPD traits) "library." Thank you for your book suggestions.

In terms of sharing with your son info on BPD: One of the books I've seen recommended The High Conflict Couple, I saw on son's bookshelf. Don't know if it was for school or personal use. Based on responses I've gotten from son, I don't think the book has helped him/wonder if he read it.  Several years ago, when we had a crisis and got a nasty e mail from our son talking about grievances and more apologies demanded, I responded with a non emotional long email, very well thought out, copy/pasted info about emotional blackmail. No response from son and years later he does the same thing anyway.  The long and short of it, maybe your situation will be different, but I haven't seen giving info to spouse of BPD has been helpful. In our case, I don't think our son will be coming over to visit (spouse has managed to twist his thinking making him believe we have indeed "wronged" them) but I wonder, for you, what would happen if your books "just happened" to be out on a counter.  Make no mention of them of course.  You have a different relationship with your son, than I do with mine. Maybe that would be one way to "share" the info without actually making mention of it. The books being out will be a reminder to him you had previously discussed those with him.  Heaven forbid he have any one of those books at his house. If he wanted to read them, he would probably have to read them on the sly/library and hope no one sees him and reports back to wife, if that is uncharacteristic for him - "I saw X at the library yesterday."   Of course, that even brings up the notion of friends? Do you think your DIL and son have "real" friends, the same way you and I have friends?

I think the lives of people married to the BPD (w/NPD traits) are in such turmoil. I feel like the spouse is constantly having to "dance."

Sadly, you are not alone.

[GeekyGirl]

  My heart goes out to you, Sherryg (and louise716 too), as I can imagine that this is very painful for you and the rest of your family. I can also understand why you'd want to educate your son about BPD and how to handle his relationship with your DIL.

Telling someone that you think that he/she has BPD is tricky, and sometimes telling the spouse, who might be enmeshed, also needs to be handled carefully. Your son probably feels very loyal to his wife and at the same time, terrified that she'll leave him. It sounds like you've told your son in several ways that you love him and want what's best for him, which is wonderful. No matter what happens from here, you've made it clear to him that your door is open to him. That's good too.

Has your son ever considered therapy? The reason I ask is that sometimes a therapist (read: neutral third party) can educate him about BPD in a way that won't make him feel like he has to defend his wife. That might also be a way for him to work on his own self-esteem and his marriage.

In the meantime, while I can certainly understand how painful it is to be cut off and told not to contact them, you are doing the right thing by letting your son know that you care and being open and available to him when he needs you.   

[sherryg]

Louise, thank you so much for taking the time to reply!  I went to bed last night once again wondering if I were doing the right thing... .  this time wondering whether posting on this site was a good thing.  It really helps to hear from other live bodies out there, reinforcing the idea that you're not alone in this and others are also struggling to find suggestions for similar relationship... .  

I'll look up your book as well.  The title at least would seem less accusatory if he were to share that with his wife.  I think our son is honest/open to a fault, however.  If our dil asked him where he got it from, I'm guessing he would tell her eventually that the idea had originally come from our home... .  However, it still might be a good idea to leave the books just sitting out, or maybe just one.  I kind of have done that unintentionally in the past, only because the books left out were what I was reading at the time, and then I was thinking maybe I shouldn't do that because I didn't want the rest of the family to think I was inappropriately fixating on the situation... .   The problem with trying to have them out when our son might happen to drop by unexpectedly is I never know when that might be if, as in the past, he will just suddenly appear unexpectedlyl and it will be weeks inbetween seeing him... .  

Oh... .  that is discouraging that you feel your son hasn't read the information he had available.  I'm so sorry for you and your son/dil as well.  My heart aches for all of those whose stories I have read/am reading.  And then I think of all the other/different challenges people are going through on a daily basis... .  very humbling. Also very inspiring... .  to think we're all trying hard to do what is right, find what will help... .  

No, our son and his wife don't have any real friends.  They are both more reserved and have never had any close friend relationships.  They are active in their church, attend meetings and my dil holds a very responsible position working with the children.  She is actually quite conversational when in public--feeling like she has advise for others I think is a big ego booster for her... .  which isn't a bad thing, if there was integrity in her self awareness and her treatment of those in her own family.    She has always had an intensely stormy relationship with her own family.  Evidently her parents spent her whole growing up time arguing. She especially has a poor relationship with her mother especially, and sisters, continually feels offended by and is critical of them for something.  From what how she's described to everyone about her parents' relationship and her experience with her mother, it sounds like her mother might also have BPD characteristics... .  However, they have supported her and our son and their grandchildren the entire time we've known her--come to bdays, kids games/activities... .  and after learning of BPD it all makes sense now. My son is probably very typical of a NPD co-dependent, basically struggles with his own self-image, which I'm sure has taken a real beating under his wife's BPD... .  although he is a very kind, intelligent, well-read individual who has graduated from college, earned his masters degree, and held responsible employment.

Their relationship has progress exactly as described in all the books, dysfunction escalating over time.  In the last year they had a new baby, my husband passed away, and my son has lost his job... .  so there is a lot of additional stress coming to bear from outside their normal relationship as well.  

Agreed... .  the constant need to "dance", the turmoil... .   

Sorry these responses have been so very long.  It really has felt cathartic pouring it all out to someone outside the family who is experiencing the same kinds of things.

It is probably a real blessing that your son and dil don't have children.  I really worry about how to help them.  And I don't really even know what it is like behind closed doors at their house, only that my son has said whenever he is home they are constantly fighting and the kids are being left to care for themselves.  Right now, they are such good kids... .   just know parents' continual fighting is a terrible burden for children to have to see/endure/carry... .   

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[sherryg]

Thank you for your response, GeekyGirl!

Our son and his wife have seen a counselor three times in the past that I know of... .  I'm not sure of the expertise or philosophy of any of them.  I have tried to respect our son's/wife's privacy by not asking questions.  When I went over to talk with my dil after the one crisis, I asked if they would consider going to a counselor.  She said they had been three different times over the years to three different counselors and none of them did any good. She actually told me that all three had said she was expecting too much from my son... .  ? (I would have thought that would tell her something, but that consistency in what she had been advised didn't seem to phase her.)  I obviously didn't say that out loud to her.  She told another dil that she had walked out of the last counselor's office because she felt the woman was taking our son's side.  So I'm assuming our dil's expectations in going to counseling was for the counselor to "fix" our son, which sounds typical.  I don't think she's willing to go to counseling again.  But after the suicide contemplation I suggested to our son that finding a counselor who was experienced in dealing with BPD might be something he should do, even if his wife wouldn't come, to help him learn to better deal with their relationship and get himself to a healthy place.

I was hoping working with their clerical leader might be helpful as a neutral 3rd party with insight, respected by both of them.  Again, I don't want to appear to be hovering by asking for information which should be kept confidential.  But I know that is happening, although not sure how frequently, and can only assume is it being continued... .  

I read on another post on this site that someone had had a very positive experience with mediation of a relationship, I think this was a sister/sil BPD relationship, by a brother who they said was very interested in responsive/reflective(?) listening... .  ?

I attended 2 LDS 12-step program meetings recently because I had read they had family addiction support groups, as well as co-dependency.  I felt like both would be tremendous sources of support and guidance for son/dil.  I shared that with my son as a possible option.  He said he had been to 12-step program meetings before... .  I got the impression he thought they were very helpful, but he said his wife unequivocably would not do that.

[Tess Russell]

To all of you who have posted, I am SO familiar with this scenario. My son married his wife after she got pregnant with their first child. An incident occurred around this time, and now it is almost three years of basically no contact! They are now expecting their third child in July - three children under the age of 2 1/2.

I have been through every stage of grieving multiple times! I was the only person vilified by dil, and it seems my son believes everything she tells him about me. The situation has caused so many difficulties in our extended family and immediate family.

After such a long period of time, I am trying to find reasons to enjoy my life apart from them. It is so painful, but I have learned so much about letting go and not taking things personally! I also keep reminding myself that the choices they make are THEIR choices, and I can't control anything regarding them!

I am so sorry for all of us who have to suffer such unbelievable pain and rejection, but BPD is the true culprit, and life is meant to be about learning lessons. All anyone can do is to remain true to themselves. Express your love when you can, and know that your children have their own lessons to learn to make them complete human beings!

I don't mean to make light of anyone's situation. I just know that I have to live my life being true to my own values and finding meaning and love where I can!

[sherryg]

Tess, thank you for sharing.  Good perspective... .  you're not making light of anything.  I'm so sorry for your situation as well... .  can't imagine no contact for 3 years.  What ways have you found to show love that they have been able to accept?   

[swampped]

Dear sherryg:  By now you have realized you are not alone!   I am also a (former) mother-in-law (mil) with a dear son who married his uBPD ex-wife after she had their baby.  The divorce was final in December, after nearly four years of misery, which continues in that she holds hostage the four-year-old granddaughter, (gd4) whom he sees when he brings money.  Very similar story to yours; this dil had two children by a previous marriage, who are in their father's custody.  They moved 350 miles away when the baby was four months old.  We have seen gd4 five times since.  We send my social security check for her support, as it keeps my husband and me reasonably sane to know that she has a roof over her head, and food on the table.  Our son is mildly developmentally disabled, and works at minimum wage jobs.   He is 33; she is 41. 

The things I have learned about BPD have helped me to set boundaries and not expect too much.  We never contact dil, but wait to hear from her, since we can never predict what is a good time.  We hang up if there is arguing or foul language, and try to validate dil's feelings when we can.  She too is terribly isolated, as is gd4.  I have found "I Don't have to Make Everything All Better" by Gary and Joy Lundberg to be very helpful.  I also follow the Supporting a Son or Daughter Board very helpful, in terms of understanding the struggles our dil faces each day.  My husband and I attend AlAnon meetings weekly---the detachment with love and letting go and letting God have helped us immeasurably.  And some of the AlAnon lessons are so applicable to BPD---when there is a crisis (and aren't they intense and exhausting, when they occur?) the idea of doing 'the next right thing'  has helped me over and over again.  To wit, pulling weeds, ironing, cleaning, anything mechanical that occupies me even for a short time.  And remembering to BREATHE.  And realizing that as much as I love my children, they must find their own way and I will not always be there to "fix" things for them.  It is a chronic sorrow, dealing with this terrible BPD, and it ripples out and affects so many people, especially extended family.  Maybe someday the research will lead us to better treatment---and prevention.  In the meantime, you are not alone.  You will be in my thoughts and prayers.     Swampped   

[GeekyGirl]

My husband and I attend AlAnon meetings weekly---the detachment with love and letting go and letting God have helped us immeasurably.  And some of the AlAnon lessons are so applicable to BPD---when there is a crisis (and aren't they intense and exhausting, when they occur?) the idea of doing 'the next right thing'  has helped me over and over again. 

I'm glad to hear that it's helped you, swampped. My aunt is very active in AA (she's been sober for 25 years!) and she's been trying to talk me into going to AlAnon because she thinks that many of the AlAnon lessons apply to people who love people with BPD. It's good to hear another perspective.

To wit, pulling weeds, ironing, cleaning, anything mechanical that occupies me even for a short time.  And remembering to BREATHE.  And realizing that as much as I love my children, they must find their own way and I will not always be there to "fix" things for them.  It is a chronic sorrow, dealing with this terrible BPD, and it ripples out and affects so many people, especially extended family. 

It's very hard to stay busy when you're thinking about something this emotionally tough, but you're right--it's a good thing to do. Breathing and just being in the moment can help too, which is what my yoga teacher always says.

Your point about your children finding their own way is a good one too. By nature we all want to help the ones we love, but sometimes giving someone the freedom to sort things out on his/her own is the best thing to do. 

[Tess Russell]

Tess, thank you for sharing.  Good perspective... .  you're not making light of anything.  I'm so sorry for your situation as well... .  can't imagine no contact for 3 years.  What ways have you found to show love that they have been able to accept?   

To all of you on this discussion, I appreciate all you've shared. Unfortunately, I have not found ANY acts of love that they have accepted. Although, I do have to say that my unBPDdil is the only one who has actually acknowledged with a thank you a few things I have given to them, but I always feel like there is a negative motive behind the thank you's. She never acknowledges everything about a "group" of gifts, but she will specify one thing.

For example, I got a savings bond for their first-born son for Christmas and a toy. I gave her a gift certificate and old photos of my son from when he was little. The only thing she mentioned were the photos. These messages are also only in the form of a text. My son doesn't acknowledge anything. My thinking is that he is actually so angry and disappointed in himself, but it is easier to displace that onto me. I believe he knows in his heart what a disaster he has set into place with her. Someday, I hope he can admit that his anger was largely because he knew I was "right". Has anyone been fortunate enough to experrience that?

I guess the only thing that bothers me is that there is nothing I can do or say out of love that my son will accept.

I do appreciate the suggestion of the book I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better. The AA points are helpful too. I CAN'T change this.

Thank you to all!

[louise 716]

Hi ladies,

Gosh it's great to read I am not alone in this BPDdil situation. I am, however, so sorry to read of your heartache as well.

Someone explained the effects of BPD or NPD like tentacles ... .  Far reaching effects. It effects everything.

The one thing that brings me a small measure of solace is that my son cut me off, I did not cut him off. The choice was his. My mom would say to me "the hardest thing to do is to do nothing" and that is certainly true. If/when my son calls I'll pick up like he called me yesterday. In my case it's only been a little over a month since I had any communication with him.

I, too, think my son is particularly angry with me for the same reason Tess mentioned she felt her son was angry at her.

Gifts:  a few years ago after son sent us an email telling us what thoughtless gifts we gave him, I only have written checks. Recently he sent an email saying he would be giving us back a check for the Christmas check we gave them. We haven't gotten it back yet, nor do we want it back. More to that story.

So, how do get to the point of not feeling like we are consumed with this ... .  Even with our sons "out of our lives." I suspect it takes time.

[livednlearned]

The one thing that brings me a small measure of solace is that my son cut me off, I did not cut him off. The choice was his. My mom would say to me "the hardest thing to do is to do nothing" and that is certainly true. If/when my son calls I'll pick up like he called me yesterday. In my case it's only been a little over a month since I had any communication with him.

So, how do get to the point of not feeling like we are consumed with this ... .  Even with our sons "out of our lives." I suspect it takes time.

When I was 20, I told my family I never wanted to see them again. I didn't want to go home anymore and be beaten, and at 20, the only way I knew how to set a boundary was by cutting people off. It's a long story, but speaking as someone who did the "splitting" back then, my suggestion is to think about what you want to share with your son when he comes around -- if he is a non, it's very likely that he will be split black at some point by his wife, and he will need you. What would you like that reunion to be like? Maybe during the black-out period you could write him letters that you don't send, a way to let him know that you never stopped loving him or thinking about him. Something that will help him fill in the gaps of time he lost when he wasn't speaking to you.

The choice he is making isn't about picking his wife over you and his family, it's about choosing to survive, and this is how he thinks it must be if he's going to survive. It could take a very long time before he realizes what he sacrificed, what he lost, and there might be a grieving process.

If it were me, I would be so deeply touched to know that, while honoring my request for no contact, my family kept me alive in their hearts and minds, and reading old letters they wrote would be a powerful way to heal the grief.



LnL

[louise 716]

Lnl,

What a great suggestion to write letters! Thank you.

One of my dilemmas is that my son said he didn't want to talk to us until we could do some soul searching and apologize ... .  Apologize to his wife ... .  I have done nothing. Not

responded to his email or her face books.  What do I apologize for? And if I do apologize its more of the same garbage.

[Tess Russell]

Lnl,

What a great suggestion to write letters! Thank you.

One of my dilemmas is that my son said he didn't want to talk to us until we could do some soul searching and apologize ... .  Apologize to his wife ... .  I have done nothing. Not

responded to his email or her face books.  What do I apologize for? And if I do apologize its more of the same garbage.

Louise, In the beginning, there was the demand that I apologize to my dil so we could move on. I felt there were some things I had done that, of course, with hindsight, I now know were caused by the craziness of BPD, but I felt 100% in my heart that I needed to be the bigger person and give them what they wanted. I felt such complete peace over writing an apology to her. I copied my son on the email. What resulted was confirmation of her unBPD. She responded by tearing me to shreds! I was actually grateful, however, because I knew then, without a doubt, of her mindset. My husband and I have been told since then by our son that the apology didn't count because it was written in an email! So... .  you are absolutely right about, "its more of the same garbage." However, I still feel good about the fact that I tried, and it can't be said that I refused to try.

I also wrote an apology recently to my son and told him I was sorry for anything I might have done or not done that he might have perceived as hurtful. He never responded to that either, but again, I tried, and if I am someone he has no interest in having contact with right now, I have to accept that. I may never be in his life again, but I'm trying to be grateful for the time I did have with him, and I told him that too.

Oh well... .  I just read a quote from Joel Osteen's book, "I Declare". "You may not see it yet, but God has the right pieces to make your puzzle fit together. That puzzle may not make sense right now, but don't be discouraged - there's another piece coming that will pull it all together."

I know there are many reasons why all of this has happened in our family, and I already have seen so many, many good things that have come out of it. I hope you will find the same!   Tess

[livednlearned]

Lnl,

What a great suggestion to write letters! Thank you.

One of my dilemmas is that my son said he didn't want to talk to us until we could do some soul searching and apologize ... .  Apologize to his wife ... .  I have done nothing. Not

responded to his email or her face books.  What do I apologize for? And if I do apologize its more of the same garbage.

I think this is actually about validating, not apologizing for something real or not real. I've had to learn this with my son -- validation -- he is not BPD but I was very worried he was trending that way after 8 years of living with N/BPDxh. The validation techniques worked like magic on him. Not to say it will fix everything with your dil and your son, but it does help you learn that you are validating how the person feels, not whether the event is true or not.

It's very condescending that your son and dil told you to do some "soul searching" -- but it's like a tantrum in a way. People who practice validation would say that the best way to get a toddler to stop throwing a fit in the supermarket is too get down at their level and validate that they are feeling very upset. The idea is that once a person knows you have heard them, they no longer have to escalate to greater histrionics because they feel heard.

Validation is not easy. It sounds easy, but it isn't. When a toddler is having a tantrum in the supermarket and you feel hungry, tired, and embarrassed, validation is definitely not easy! And when it's a grown man who is accusing you of having bad intentions, or doing things you know you haven't done, it's tough. But validation techniques are actually based on work that Martha Lineman did working with suicidal patients. She learned that when she validated how bad some of these people were feeling, (even if their reality did not seem so bad), they got better, instead of more suicidal. The book I read is Power of Validation, but it's for parents of younger kids. There might be a book out there that is better for your situation. Maybe someone here has a suggestion?

[louise 716]

Thanks lnl.  I will keep "validation" in mind. More to write but the timer just went off on my pizza so gotta go!

[louise 716]

Okay ... .  So ... .  Maybe someone can help me.  Son said until we do soul searching, he doesn't want to talk to us. Guess that means he won't be initiating any contact. He's going to feel bad if we don't apologize.  Apologize for what, I don't know. So what do I apologize to him for? Throughout the years we have apologized for one transgression after another.

I can already sense if we make a "generic" apology and ask him to explain what we did so we can understand and not do it again, he'll get mad bec we are ignorant as to what we did.

[louise 716]

Since January 31 my son has had no contact with me.  I called my son up the other evening. He actually picked up after about 2 rings. I asked how it was going.  "It's going." Then I said I was just calling to say I love him and that I was thinking about him.  "Oh ... .  okay" was his response.  I said "Well, I'll let you get back to your evening. Bye."

The email we got from him on the 31st said he wanted some gifts back from us and his siblings.  I figured if he wanted them he had to come over and ask for them.  I would not be hand delivering them be/c I felt he wrote that email full of emotion and not thinking.  I didn't show/nor tell his siblings about the e mail. One sibling did however see the e mail and did take back the recent gift she was given along with a very loving "I'll be here whenever you want to contact me. I love you" ... note. A few days after the sibling took the gift over she got an email from son's uBPD/narcissistic wife ... .  "Oh ... .  I had fun shopping for that gift for you.  I'll keep it here and when you come over you can have it back." What the heck?

[Let it Be]

Hello posters,

   When I read your stories they are so familiar.  My s was married to a uBPD for almost 3 years and I went through so many of these same situations.  I was painted black pretty early on because I came to the defense of my gd who was being grounded and left home alone without even a phone for emergencies.  Long story short, my s would also call me and "chew" me out for transgressions.  They are now divorced and we have seen how severe her illness was.  I wonder now if I had just told my son that nothing would be solved by him and I talking about a problem that was perceived by his wife and would he please have her call me if it would have changed anything.  There was so much triangling, splitting and projection going on that we all thought we were going crazy.

  On an interesting note, now that they are divorced my other dil told my s that she had saved every e-mail that his ex uBPD wife had sent her.  My s asked if he should read them and she told him probably not as in some of them he (my s) was saying that she (my non dil) and I were crazy for thinking there was something wrong with his ex's thinking.  He laughed and said, "no, I guess I don't want to read them. !  

  While I know that many of these marriages do not last long as maintaining relationships is difficult for the BPD (my uBPD exdil has been married 4 times now), I also know a relationship where the husband has stayed over 40 years and has tolerated personal abuse and seen his child abused.  I would just try not to communicate anything that is coming second or third hand.  If dil is not willing to tell you that she is upset then your son should not be doing it for her.  

  We are still undoing the damage done by 3 years with a BPD and I am not sure we will ever completely get over the hurt.  I worry constantly about the damage done to my s's daughter (my gd) and to the exdil's children who were loved for 3 years by my son and then forbidden to talk to him once he was painted black.  Believe it or not he let her live in the house for 3 months while she refused to talk to my gd or let her children talk to her.  My s and I quote "was trying to be nice" as she was trying to buy another home.  She was already seeing another man.

[sherryg]

I've appreciated all the postings on this subject... .  have given much insight, direction for further study, and often hope.  Thank you.

As I look to a time in the future when I might have a chance to again interact with my son and dil, I would like to be able to better listen and validate feelings... .  but as I think through responses in my mind, the list seems very short... .  so wouldn't the responses seem insincere, stilted to the BPD? Does anyone have suggestions beyond changing to supportive body language, nodding your head, saying  That has to be really hard,  I can tell you're so upset (my husband says that and to me it sounds condescending, in fact anything that starts out, I can tell... .  , You seem... .  , It seems like you're feeling... .  all sound very fake to me ?   Does anyone have a list, a long list, of alternate phrases to preface your stating the emotion you are trying to restate back to the BPD?

[louise 716]

Sherry,

I'll be interested in responses you get because those would be helpful to me as I share our same concerns.

I think it was live and let be who wrote the informative post before yours.  Thank you for taking the time to write.

I understand son's reaction/attitude may be due to survival on his part. However, one of the things that keeps coming back to me is the fact that very often people that have mental health issues often have their root back in childhood: abuse, neglect, parents drug and/or alcohol addicted, parents not around etc. how could someone choose not to have contact with mom/dad when so many people crave a healthy relationship with parents. Here my son COULD have that but has chosen not to.

[livednlearned]

I understand son's reaction/attitude may be due to survival on his part. However, one of the things that keeps coming back to me is the fact that very often people that have mental health issues often have their root back in childhood: abuse, neglect, parents drug and/or alcohol addicted, parents not around etc. how could someone choose not to have contact with mom/dad when so many people crave a healthy relationship with parents. Here my son COULD have that but has chosen not to.

Yeah, hard to know what's going on for him. It sort of reminds me of parental alienation, which is what kids with a BPD parent are subjected to when there's a divorce (although some parents do it during the marriage too). It's  genuine propaganda and brainwashing. For those of us with a disordered ex spouse, the book Divorce Poison is what we all read. I'm not sure if it will be entirely helpful to you because it's about parental alienation, and your situation is a little different, but it talks about the tactics that disordered parents use to try and isolate and alienate the kids. It could be that your DIL has used similar tactics with your son. I used validation techniques with my son, and also did a lot of the stuff recommended in Divorce Poison in order to address the facts so that my N/BPDxh didn't fill S11's head with lies.