Do I actually SEEK OUT people with red flags?

[HowPredictable]

On many of these Boards (especially Leaving) I see repeated references to the fact that we would "ignore red flags" about our expwBPD.  

I actually think that some of us deliberately (but unknowingly/subconciously) CHOOSE people who have red flags, and plow ahead anyway, either because deep down we don't actually want a relationship, or because we want validation from trying to get a relationship from someone who is incapable of having one.

Case in point:  Since doing a lot of self-discovery work and introspection, I have concluded that my own pattern in life has been to subsconciously choose men who were some variety of an Emotionally Unavailable Man.  In some cases they had personality disorders (I dated one NPD and one BPD), in others they were unavailable due to their own circumstances (such as recently divorced, long-distance relationships, workaholics etc).  In another post I detailed how I did a little "experiment" with emotional intimacy, and it led me to have anxiety and panic attacks.   I have realized that I have some significant issues with Intimacy and Commitment of my own.

So what better way to AVOID intimacy, than to choose partners who have even bigger issues with it than me?

I think that -- far from "ignoring" these red flags -- I think I saw them subconsiously.  I think I was actively choosing people who could not be emotionally intimate, all the while deluding myself that I was 1) capable of it myself; and 2) genuinely looking for an intimate, connected relationship.   So I am now working on not merely seeing red flags, but also resisting my apparent allure to the people who have them.

Anyone else?

[hithere]

I don't think I was looking for red flags but I was swept up in the excitement of meeting my soul-mate because she mirrored exactly what I wanted. 

No doubt there are many nons that are dysfunctional in other ways and a person with BPD might appeal to them, but I think it is the mirroring and idealization that makes us miss the red flags.

[heartandwhole]

So what better way to AVOID intimacy, than to choose partners who have even bigger issues with it than me?

I think that -- far from "ignoring" these red flags -- I think I saw them subconsiously.  I think I was actively choosing people who could not be emotionally intimate, all the while deluding myself that I was 1) capable of it myself; and 2) genuinely looking for an intimate, connected relationship.   So I am now working on not merely seeing red flags, but also resisting my apparent allure to the people who have them.

Anyone else?

Amen!  I'm with you, HowPredictable - it has definitely been unconscious, but nevertheless, there always seems to be some circumstance (or personality) that stops me from being truly intimate with another.  One day I realized it was me.  I always professed that I wanted intimacy, but never put myself in the position to experience it fully.  The other side of the coin is that I chose people who couldn't be intimate with me, so I did my best hoop-jumping and superwoman thing to love and understand them enough so that they might, just might, be able to love me back - and it would be my LOVE that would make it happen    And all my childhood losses would be made right again.  It's hard to look at, but I have compassion for myself and for the people in my life - we were all doing our best, given what our programming was/is.

I suspect that in a romantic situation, for example, meeting a healthy man who is capable of being present and intimate with me would scare me to death.  Kind of like that anxiety you felt with Q?  I mean, that would mean that I have to show up and be open and be present for him and myself.  It's what I have always said I really, really want.  But I have to accept that I have attachment issues that interfere with that wish.  Now that I really understand that there is a good reason why I have these issues, that I'm not bad or wrong for having them, I can begin to change my behavior.  What a challenge sometimes!

Thanks for post, I look forward to reading more if you want to share.   

[Scott44]

I don't know about actually SEEKING red flags, but I do sense that we think our perfect LOVE can make them go away.  It can't.

[HowPredictable]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

Heartandwhole:   I could have written your reply, myself.  Same sentiments, exactly. 

Are you sure we are not long-lost sisters?  

[catsprt]

Is it a matter of seeking out red flags or is a matter of adhering to what is familiar? And yes, I agree subconsciously one can be very good at repeating a pattern.

[doubleAries]

This is a good article about this very topic Falling in Love with an Unavailable Person

Someone told me once they thought I was purposely seeking out dysfunctional relationships in order to "re-create" my abusive upbringing so I could "win" or overcome that childhood. I thought a lot about this, and while I think it may be true for some people, I don't think that's the deal for me. I think the deal for me, and lots of other people, is simple and straightforward: I grew up in an extremely dysfunctional and abusive home. I learned to adapt and cope, to survive. I had to. Then I grew up and moved out into the world, with this certain set of coping skills. Naturally, I found myself attracted to situations and people where I could use these deeply ingrained coping skills. On a conscious level, it has been very frustrating (just like when I was a kid). On an unconscious level, it is familiar (just like when I was a kid).

I don't think I'm trying to "win" anything. I think I'm just trying to use the skills I have--which are best suited for extremely dysfunctional situations and relationships.

It's a long tough road learning new coping skills. But worth it.  

doubleAries

[heartandwhole]

Heartandwhole:   I could have written your reply, myself.  Same sentiments, exactly. 

Are you sure we are not long-lost sisters?  

We must be! 

[HowPredictable]

Then I grew up and moved out into the world, with this certain set of coping skills. Naturally, I found myself attracted to situations and people where I could use these deeply ingrained coping skills.

I am very interested in your take on this, and I need help understanding it.  The disjoint in the logic (for me) is why you say you would  "naturally" be drawn to situations where you could use your well-honed coping skills.  Unless you are hoping to orchestrate a different outcome from what you experienced in your childhood, why -- besides sheer familiarity -- would you be attracted to the same dynamic?   

Here's a (probably poor) analogy:  If you have broken your finger, and it has fully healed, I think we nonetheless tend naturally to protect that healed finger from further injury.  We don't go out and deliberately choose that finger -- among the 10 we have -- to do risky things  with and potentially hurt the finger again.  In fact, for a long time after healing I think we naturally take pains to protect that finger a little more than the others.

The same here:  You have developed a distinct set of coping skills.  Why be drawn to situations where you must use them?  Why not avoid those scenarios/people entirely, as a basic self-protection mechanism?

[doubleAries]

howpredictable--

I'm not an expert and am speaking only from my own experience. That said, I think the subconscious is not some mysterious "other" being, hidden from us.

In fact, often it is simply what has become automatic.

Here's a simple analogy: at one time you had to learn to walk. During this period, you had to pay close and careful attention to every detail of what you were doing, and you failed over and over, falling down and getting back up to try again. You had to think about bending your knee and on which leg, how to shift your weight so you didn't fall, how far to move your foot forward, etc. And it took a lot of practise. Once you found a pretty good way to do it, it started to become automatic. You don't have to think about it anymore. You just do it. It isn't secret or hidden from you--you know that you just walked across the room. But you didn't have to think about EXACTLY how to do it. And if you would have, it would have been very awkward! Try it and see what I mean--try walking a short way and paying careful attention to every detail of what walking entails. And I mean every detail--which muscles you are using and how/why. How far you bend your knee, how far you move your foot forward, how much weight you shift to the other foot when you move the other forward.

This is not a secret activity you do that you are unaware of or blind to. You know you walk. But the knowledge of how to do so has been relegated to a part of your brain that does things automatically, instead of consciously, with purposeful focused attention. What if for some reason you had to learn to walk a different way? Wouldn't it be hard, like starting all over? Except harder, because you wouldn't be starting from scratch, you'd be up against your automatic/habitual method.

This isn't a perfect analogy because it is about a purely physical activity. But it still works because we do the same thing with interactive situations. We get into "habits". We become predictable to others (and ourselves) in our reactions and responses. They have become automatic. Subconscious.

Consciously, I want to protect myself from hurtful situations. But I don't know how and never did know how. I fall back on the automatic coping skills I have (without really realizing it--they are automatic/subconscious, after all). I walk the way I walk. It wears my shoes down on the inside ball of the foot spot. When I try to change it so my shoes wear more evenly, I forget and fall back (automatically) on walking the way I've always walked. When I come across situations I don't know, I use the only skills I know to cope. When I come across dysfunctional situations that are somewhat familiar, I use the coping skills I know from past experience (whether those skills are actually effective or not).

For example, we are engaged in one of those coping skills right now. Growing up in a volatile home, it's not safe to express emotions. Especially vulnerable emotions. My practised coping skill was to bury emotions and instead rely on critical/analytical skills. That is now how I approach most things. Including emotions. I analyze them. Because it always felt safer. Consciously, I'd like to experience the wonderful emotions of a healthy relationship. But that's at odds with what I actually know how to do. My subconscious says it's not safe--so analyze it instead.

Recently I found myself physically uncomfortable. It finally culminated in bursting into tears and I didn't know why and couldn't seem to control it. At first, when it was just my upper back and neck in tension pain, I thought (notice I said "thought"--not "felt" it was my mattress pad or pillow. But bursting into tears... .  hoo-boy. That can't logically be from my pillow, can it? I talked to my T about this, and he explained that I was finally feeling safe enough to allow some of the pent up emotions out (I seperated from my bipolar/ASPD/NPD husband). Oh. Hmmm. That's weird. Next I started having horrible headaches. AHA! Must be my feelings again! Uh, no... .  it was an infection in my jaw from a toothache. Hmmm... .  I must be pretty disconnected from my emotions. But no! That can't be! I talk about my emotions to my T all the time! That's when he pointed out, "yep, that's right. you TALK about them. But you don't experience them. I rarely see any physical correlation with what you're talking about". Huh? So emotions are physical? Apparently they are. I'm out of my league there, so I don't know. So what would you expect me to do? That's right--revert back to situations I DO know, where I'm more comfortable, where I at least have some coping skills. Hey, they aren't that bad of skills, and they've gotten me a long ways. They're just underdeveloped in some areas.

It's not a conscious decision usually. And maybe it DOES have some element (subconsciously) of trying the same thing but hoping for a different outcome. I'm an adult now, after all. Surely I have gained some power, haven't I? Surely I am not the powerless little kid anymore and have more control over the situation, don't I?

Or maybe control isn't the real issue--it just was in the mind of the child who was utterly powerless. And that perception hasn't evolved much. Subconsciously, anyway. What you practise over and over consciously eventually becaomes automatic/subconscious.

When you hurt your finger and seek to protect it, you have to be consciously focused on that protection, don't you? Because when you aren't, you inadvertantly hurt your finger again. What is the best way to keep from hurting your finger? There are many options, aren't there? Including not using your hand at all.

I cut off all contact with my mother 22 years ago. While I do not intend to re-instate contact with her (she hasn't changed at all), I do understand that this course of action stopped the pain, but did not teach me different (maybe even more efficient) ways to cope with her. I still had the same coping skills I taught myself growing up. Which I face the world with. My skills aren't about how to share and enjoy genuine and sincere emotional interaction in a healthy intimate manner. My skills are about how to survive and hide in a volatile and emotionally confusing hell.

I liken it to the walking analogy. Yeah, you try hard to walk differently, but keep finding yourself reverting to the automatic (long practised) skills/methods. I came out of an unusually horrific childhood. Sure, it's miraculous I'm not more screwed up, etc, etc, etc. But it also makes sense that I'm not going to leave the concentration camp and then go straight to healthy functionality. I wasn't trained for that, and have no skills in that direction. I have to purposefully, consciously, in a focused manner learn those type of skills. And I'm not a blank slate where that slides right in. I have the subconscious/automatic skills for dealing with extreme dysfunction that need to be replaced.

I'm not saying being attracted to the familiar is happy, comfortable, and satisfying. It sure hasn't been for me. Or lots of others here. But we walk the way we walk.

Hope this makes sense... .  

doubleAries

[doubleAries]

P.S. I think that consciously, we tell ourselves that we ARE doing something different and protecting ourselves---by noticing and focusing on what is different in the new r/s or situation. And ignoring what is the same (dysfunctional), because that gets relegated to the "automatic" anyway. Fancier way of talking about "ignoring the red flags". We're not, perhaps, "ignoring" the red flags at times, so much as relegating them to the "automatic" and familiar functions.

Hmmm... .  I see this clearly but am struggling somewhat to articulate it... .  

doubleAries

[HowPredictable]

Hi doubleAries.  Thanks for the detailed explanation, which I've now read a few times.

I do understand the walking analogy, except that my initial question related not so much as to why you might default to certain coping mechanisms, but rather why you would feel "naturally drawn" to a dysfunctional dynamic.    So to apply your analogy, it's saying that the fact that you wear out your shoes unevenly dictates that you will always walk in a certain direction, or end up at a specific destination.  It's the destination that I'm focused on in my query, not the manner of getting there.

But let me put it more plainly:   Upon meeting my expwBPD (or the expwNPD I dated before him), a lot of people would have run the other way.  They would have seen the red flags, would have picked up on inappropriate behaviour, and would have seen emotional danger.

Not me.  I saw a challenge... .  A puzzle to be solved, and (I now believe) a chance to right the wrongs of my upbringing.   I've read a bit on this (including the article you linked to; thanks).  That's the phenomenon that I'm trying to untangle for myself. 

[doubleAries]

This is something I am working on within myself as well, so i appreciate the conversation.

I posed this very question to my T tonight.

I think perhaps the "naturally drawn" part is simply some recognition of the familiar. Again, not to be confused with satisfying, happy, etc.

I also like a good challenge (and apparently one that is futile). There is also perhaps some element--not so much on the conscious level--of believeing I must earn validation and affection, earn being loved and valued through extreme contortions. An old book that still holds a lot of truths is "women who love too much". Worth reading. I like how she slips into our view of ourselves, away from victimhood.

My T says part of this poor judgment in choosing r/s's is about an imbalance in the thoughts/feelings/behaviors dynamic. When someone is imbalanced in this dynamic (particularly in the emotional part of it--not overly emotional, but under emotional) boundaries/values get skewed and judgment gets lost. That is, of course, a critical thinking/analytical view of an emotional matter. 

[heartandwhole]

Really interesting discussion DoubleAries and HowPredictable.  If I could chime in here, I think that I am trying to "right" the "wrong" of my failed r/s with my father, for one thing.  And I'm really tired of doing that and want to stop.  The problem is that I tend to trust "attraction" - the way I feel with someone, emotionally, physically when I meet them.  Usually that's to people who will repeat my FOO story, with the result being that I do not "win" or finally do the thing that will right the wrong...

But like DoubleAries, my T says that it is my choices that are wonky.  It seems she wants me to rely on my rational thoughts as well as feelings - go figure!     This can be difficult, because I tend to go with my heart, which is a bit behind my head, as it seems.  Anyway, it will require me to radically change my way of entering into a relationship.

I'm also reading a book by David Richo and he says that the repetition compulsion is a good thing.  It doesn't mean that we are continually failing (which I have often felt).  We are working through our issues at a pace that is comfortable for us, instead of going straight for the deepest wounding and trying to deal with it all at once.

Great discussion.