Toxic Shame

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So I have not been to therapy in several months.  My therapist emailed me asking how I was and if I was putting therapy on hold.  I told her I didn't know.  I was honest and said that I don't know if it is helping me.  I told her I don't feel like I've gotten answers or causes or strategies. I did tell her I do feel better after I talk to her and purge (most of the time) but I don't really feel any *better* yet. And I don't know if anyone can help.

I had stumbled across an article the day before about shame and told her the article was pretty much how I felt all the time.  She wrote back and said she thinks that I am dealing with toxic shame.  I looked it up and it does look like me exactly.

Anyone dealing with this or know anything about it?

[sheepdog]

So I have not been to therapy in several months.  My therapist emailed me asking how I was and if I was putting therapy on hold.  I told her I didn't know.  I was honest and said that I don't know if it is helping me.  I told her I don't feel like I've gotten answers or causes or strategies. I did tell her I do feel better after I talk to her and purge (most of the time) but I don't really feel any *better* yet. And I don't know if anyone can help.

I had stumbled across an article the day before about shame and told her the article was pretty much how I felt all the time.  She wrote back and said she thinks that I am dealing with toxic shame.  I looked it up and it does look like me exactly.

Anyone dealing with this or know anything about it?

[struggli]

The book "No More Mr Nice Guy" talks about this quite a bit.  It's the idea that your parents didn't meet your needs as a child (and most probably didn't).  You basically have come to believe that no one wants to help you get what you need because you are "not worth it."

My therapist contends that most parents do a crappy job raising kids and showing them love.  Some, of course, do a horrific job.  I'd say mine fall along the crappy end of the spectrum and my ex's, for example, on the the horrific.   But just because my childhood wasn't downright terrible doesn't mean I don't have things to address, things that diminish the potential of who I can be now.

[sheepdog]

struggli - this is the part that is so maddening to me.  My parents were beautiful, wonderful parents.  I feel blessed to have had the childhood I had.  Lucky.  I don't really remember specific things but as far as my mom and dad - good people.

I read somewhere that shame/guilt is feeling "I made a mistake."

Toxic shame is "I AM a mistake."

I so get that.

I will check out the book.  Thank you for the reply.

[C12P21]

Another book you might want to look at is "Healing the Shame That Binds You". I didn't have a great childhood and the book helped me to understand both my parents and me.

Before you place a label on what it is you are feeling, you might want to keep yourself open to reading and reflecting, I think it will come to you as you journal, just what it is that is bothering you.

Reading this book helped me immensely but it took almost two years before I felt better.

I told her I didn't know.  I was honest and said that I don't know if it is helping me.  I told her I don't feel like I've gotten answers or causes or strategies.

I get this. I wonder if you believed that once you were in therapy you would begin to feel better. Therapy is an eye opener, and can uncover things we are not able to examine at the time, it certainly is no magic bullet.   Whatever brought you into therapy, or created a feeling of emotional upset sometimes takes a lot of time and patience to unravel. Since you are on this site, and actively seeking answers means you are willing to do the work... so give yourself time, patience, and acceptance that understanding yourself and feeling different about your life will take time.

Take care,

C

[struggli]

Sometimes our FOO isn't just our parents.  It's our community family - teachers, peers, messages in media, religion... .  

[Scott44]

I grew up with one overiding and false notion.  I was taught that we can do anything we "set our minds to".  This is not true, and is one reason why I have tried and failed with a series of pwBPD.

[Maryiscontrary]

Yes, the "set your mind to it." can only go so far.

[sheepdog]

Another book you might want to look at is "Healing the Shame That Binds You". I didn't have a great childhood and the book helped me to understand both my parents and me.

Before you place a label on what it is you are feeling, you might want to keep yourself open to reading and reflecting, I think it will come to you as you journal, just what it is that is bothering you.

Reading this book helped me immensely but it took almost two years before I felt better.

I told her I didn't know.  I was honest and said that I don't know if it is helping me.  I told her I don't feel like I've gotten answers or causes or strategies.

I get this. I wonder if you believed that once you were in therapy you would begin to feel better. Therapy is an eye opener, and can uncover things we are not able to examine at the time, it certainly is no magic bullet.   Whatever brought you into therapy, or created a feeling of emotional upset sometimes takes a lot of time and patience to unravel. Since you are on this site, and actively seeking answers means you are willing to do the work... so give yourself time, patience, and acceptance that understanding yourself and feeling different about your life will take time.

Take care,

C

C, thanks so much for your kind words. 

Part of the toxic shame is that I don't think I'm worth trying to figure out what is going on.

I read in an article that people with 'normal' shame or guilt feel, "I MADE a mistake." 

People with toxic shame feel, "I AM a mistake.

It's very true for me.

I emailed her back for an appointment.  She said she had some reading material that will help me.

Sometimes our FOO isn't just our parents.  It's our community family - teachers, peers, messages in media, religion... .  

struggli - thank you for clarifying that.  It helps.

[AnotherPhoenix]

 

Hi Sheepdog,

How did your therapy go?

How are you doing?

For me, I think my toxic shame was much worse for me than I thought! I noticed that my new T frequently validated me with essentially the same phrases in our sessions. So, I started repeating those same phrases to myself when I'd start feeling down, and it has really helped me feel better and mentally stronger.

I add in as much of my own self-compassion and self-acceptance as I can. It helps a lot. I feel like my mind is finally clear enough so that I can start changing some of my behaviors that have been holding me back in life. Before now, my mind seemed to full and overwhelmed to be able to change these behaviors.

Wishing you the best,

AnotherPheonix   

Me, I think I'm rounding the bend. Still, I'm very resistant to changing. It is difficult. Baby steps. For me,

[sheepdog]

Hi AnotherPhoenix,

It is this coming week.  It's been hard for me to even go in as I feel kind of like, "What's the use?"

Kind of having a really low day today and that is really annoying me.  Going to write another personal inventory post about it after this, if you're interested.

Did you have self-compassion before?  If not, how did you figure out what to do?

It's hard to do that when you feel you're a mistake.  Any ideas you can share would be great.

Thank you.

[C12P21]

Did you have self-compassion before? 

No, not in the least at least, not in the least for me.

If not, how did you figure out what to do?

I think once I was in such emotional pain I had to understand the source of the pain in order to survive. It was kind of an eye opener as I was the person others came to in order to find healing or emotional support, when I reached or hit the wall... .  when I felt empty inside, I knew it was time to stop focusing on other people and start focusing on me. When I did this, the work was difficult because I had spent many years avoiding me and focusing on others was easier. I wanted to feel better, to stop the pain, so I had to face me. When I did this, facing myself, I listened to the negative tapes playing in my head,  I listened to how often I beat myself up and then I began to change those negative voices. In order to change them, I had to remember the events and circumstances that first set those voices into play. This mindfulness paid off because I began to remember the events that occurred that made me doubt myself and lowered my self esteem. Once I recognized the events that contributed to my faulty thinking, I could then replace the negative tapes playing with improved versions. I actively worked on visualizations of the positives in my life, both past and present. The work hasn't been easy and it took time to remember and reflect but in the long run, it has been worth the effort.

Wishing you well,

C

[Free One]

I reach plateaus with my T and take a few months off to figure out what I need from her next. I spend time reading and doing a lot introspection. The answer comes to me and I go back ready to tackle my next issue.

I too recently discovered Toxic Shame. I have "Healing the Shame that Binds you", but haven't gotten far in it yet. If you look up the author, John Bradshaw, on Youtube, there are some great videos on the topic.

[AnotherPhoenix]

  Sheepdog,

What C12P21 is very good. I've done a lot of that.

I also agree with what she said about having self compassion before. No. Not in the way we are talking about it.

How did I figure out what to do: A lot of work and investigating. Several self-help books and a couple of therapists.

Going through Bradshaw's book on Toxic Shame helped me a lot. It gave me a lot of understanding.

One thing that I've had to learn is to work on turning down or turning off the inner critic inside of me. It was very harsh. I helped keep my self-esteem down even when I was doing quite well. Because that is all my inner critic knew how to do to protect me and help me, because that is what I was taught when I was growing up and this approach was periodically reinforced throughout my life (such as 16 years of life with a person with BPD).

I'm also learning to accept all of me. Including this inner critic. My new T is constantly telling me that these behaviors that are self-sabotaging are not "bad". Their intent is to help me and to protect me from pain. But the behaviors were what I learned as a child, reinforced during my marriage with my BPDex, but aren't valid any more. Repeating this statement frequently helps me a lot. It helps me accept my behaviors without calling them "bad". It helps keep me from fighting with myself internally. The other thing my new T immediately did was validate how hard I am trying, how difficult things are for me, how much I've overcome, and just how great some of my accomplishments are.

As for self-compassion, what really turned me onto it was this web page: www.self-compassion.org/. It has some great guided meditations that have helped me a lot, and a lot of other stuff that has been extremely useful! The meditations are also great for self-soothing. I recommend for you and anybody else who is going through difficult times (all of us on bpdfamily.com?).

How was your last T session where you were going to do some toxic shame exercises?

AnotherPheonix    

[AnotherPhoenix]

The exercises on self-compassion, that are also on the web page: www.self-compassion.org/, are also great and highly recommended for getting started with self-compassion. The helped me a lot.

[sheepdog]

Did you have self-compassion before? 

No, not in the least at least, not in the least for me.

If not, how did you figure out what to do?

I think once I was in such emotional pain I had to understand the source of the pain in order to survive. It was kind of an eye opener as I was the person others came to in order to find healing or emotional support, when I reached or hit the wall... .  when I felt empty inside, I knew it was time to stop focusing on other people and start focusing on me. When I did this, the work was difficult because I had spent many years avoiding me and focusing on others was easier. I wanted to feel better, to stop the pain, so I had to face me. When I did this, facing myself, I listened to the negative tapes playing in my head,  I listened to how often I beat myself up and then I began to change those negative voices. In order to change them, I had to remember the events and circumstances that first set those voices into play. This mindfulness paid off because I began to remember the events that occurred that made me doubt myself and lowered my self esteem. Once I recognized the events that contributed to my faulty thinking, I could then replace the negative tapes playing with improved versions. I actively worked on visualizations of the positives in my life, both past and present. The work hasn't been easy and it took time to remember and reflect but in the long run, it has been worth the effort.

Wishing you well,

C

C - but what if you were a HUGE part of the REASON for the circumstances that put those events into play?  That is what I can't get past.  The shame just completely consumes me.

I reach plateaus with my T and take a few months off to figure out what I need from her next. I spend time reading and doing a lot introspection. The answer comes to me and I go back ready to tackle my next issue.

I too recently discovered Toxic Shame. I have "Healing the Shame that Binds you", but haven't gotten far in it yet. If you look up the author, John Bradshaw, on Youtube, there are some great videos on the topic.

Thank you, Free One.  I will check out that book.  My therapist gave me shame book but it is actually making me feel worse.  And it is just rubbing me the wrong way... .

 Sheepdog,

What C12P21 is very good. I've done a lot of that.

I also agree with what she said about having self compassion before. No. Not in the way we are talking about it.

How did I figure out what to do: A lot of work and investigating. Several self-help books and a couple of therapists.

Going through Bradshaw's book on Toxic Shame helped me a lot. It gave me a lot of understanding.

One thing that I've had to learn is to work on turning down or turning off the inner critic inside of me. It was very harsh. I helped keep my self-esteem down even when I was doing quite well. Because that is all my inner critic knew how to do to protect me and help me, because that is what I was taught when I was growing up and this approach was periodically reinforced throughout my life (such as 16 years of life with a person with BPD).

I'm also learning to accept all of me. Including this inner critic. My new T is constantly telling me that these behaviors that are self-sabotaging are not "bad". Their intent is to help me and to protect me from pain. But the behaviors were what I learned as a child, reinforced during my marriage with my BPDex, but aren't valid any more. Repeating this statement frequently helps me a lot. It helps me accept my behaviors without calling them "bad". It helps keep me from fighting with myself internally. The other thing my new T immediately did was validate how hard I am trying, how difficult things are for me, how much I've overcome, and just how great some of my accomplishments are.

As for self-compassion, what really turned me onto it was this web page: www.self-compassion.org/. It has some great guided meditations that have helped me a lot, and a lot of other stuff that has been extremely useful! The meditations are also great for self-soothing. I recommend for you and anybody else who is going through difficult times (all of us on bpdfamily.com?).

How was your last T session where you were going to do some toxic shame exercises?

AnotherPheonix   

Okay, that is two votes for Bradshaw's book.  Guess I need to check it out.  You said, My new T is constantly telling me that these behaviors that are self-sabotaging are not "bad".  I find this intriguing.  Can you expand on this?  How is something that you beat yourself to a bloody pupl with constantly, not bad?  I am not arguing, just want to look at it in this new way.

Thank you for the sites!  I will check them out!

My therapist and I don't do exercises... . I talk a lot and she sometimes talks.  She will give me books to read and we discuss them sometimes.  No 'exercises' per se.   

[Free One]

Thinking of self-sabotaging behaviors as "good" or "bad" is black and white thinking. I am guessing that in your mind, labeling the behaviors "good" or "bad" makes YOU either "good" or "bad". They don't have to be either - they can just be normal human behavior. However, if they aren't working for you, it's worth replacing the thinking or behaviors with ones that do benefit you. 

Something else I have found helpful is learning about reactive depression and how the conditioning of our childhood leads to depression as a reaction to our thoughts and behaviors.

[yeeter]

struggli - this is the part that is so maddening to me.  My parents were beautiful, wonderful parents.  I feel blessed to have had the childhood I had.  Lucky.  I don't really remember specific things but as far as my mom and dad - good people.

You know, a lot of T jumps right into FOO and childhood/parenting as the root of all issues (statistically it might be likely, but that doesnt make it a 'given' and imo its lazy therapy that defacto blames this)

Im not a therapist - but I dont believe our parents are at fault for every little issue we have.  I have issues, yet also feel I had fantastic (not perfect) parents and that I was very lucky with my upbringing.

It just might not be your parents, but something else... . (religion can do a lot of damage this way)

I will share a story on my BIL though (a clear FOO issue):  In their family waste was considered a terrible sin/shame/crime.  So all food had to be eaten (and extreme frugality was admired, and saving everything to the point of hoarding).  While sometimes its admirable, other times its self destructive.  For example - he has food allergies.  Yet if something is left on the table and at risk of being tossed, he will eat it even if he knows it will upset his system to the point it purges.  I asked him:  how is it 'using' this food resource, if its actually causing nutritional damage by eating it?  (to which he admits its not rational but also that he cant help it he is compelled to eat it anyway or he would feel bad about it going to waste).

The great thing about him is that he will acknowledge and admit and even joke about this behavior.  And at the same time, he isnt going to change (he says "Im afraid its hereditary... . " - so has made peace with it.  Acceptance of who he is, defects and all.

[C12P21]

C - but what if you were a HUGE part of the REASON for the circumstances that put those events into play?  That is what I can't get past.  The shame just completely consumes me.

Yep, been there and felt that.   

By the time I was 21 I absolutely hated myself, I thought I was a horrible person. Why? Well, for a lot of reasons. One was the way I treated men, or boys, really because at that age, I was real young and so were they.

When I went on a date, if a guy was all over me, I had no clue what to do. At the time, it never occurred to me that I didn't have boundaries with my body because I was sexually abused in childhood by my father and three older brothers, plus raped as a little girl by a neighbor. I would freeze, or worse "act out" what I had been groomed in childhood to do... . pretend like being violated was okay because something about me made men go crazy with desire. This is crazy thinking but tragically, I was stuck there.

I thought it was my fault and no matter how much I bathed, or covered my body... . men would molest me. I was very beautiful when I was young and a model, so I thought, oh, this is my fault, if I were cleaner, smarter, less attractive they would leave me alone. I give out a signal. 

The boys would think we were an item, but let me tell you, I would get as far away from them as I could and NEVER speak to them again. I was just filled with shame. I was dirty, a tool, an easy lay. I didn't allow myself to date very much because the experiences were so miserable so it wasn't like I had a lot of sexual encounters.  Now here is what was horrible.  I rejected a vulnerable young man due to my overwhelming sense of shame and he came to my home and tried so  hard to talk to me about scarey things, like my feelings. He asked me questions, such as who had hurt me and what was I afraid of... . so I did something very cruel to get away from him. I laughed in his face while he cried. Later on, I learned he tried to commit suicide. 

For years I felt guilty.

Now in retrospect, I realize that although I am responsible for my actions, and although my treatment of him must have hurt him considerably and was confusing to him, I realize that given my FOO I didn't have the tools to protect my body, I didn't have the trust in another person to open up to them, and I didn't know how to select a healthy partner.

Years later I asked his forgiveness... . thirty years after the incident and you know what... he cried and thanked me for the apology. He thanked me for helping him understand. All those years later, he carried that hurt.

When I think of this and all the other dumb things I have done that have hurt others, I feel so sad that I did that... . and where I could make amends, I did and where I cannot, I accept. And underneath it all, I forgave and now protect that little girl in me that was violated... . I love her. Once you truly learn to love and forgive yourself for all the things you have done that have others and you a wonderful, beautiful thing happens, you learn compassion and empathy for yourself.

I still feel guilt at times and I think about it, pray about it, and believe in a loving Creator that loves me and understands me and designed for a purpose. I believe the same is true for you.

C

[Blazing Star]

C - but what if you were a HUGE part of the REASON for the circumstances that put those events into play?  That is what I can't get past.  The shame just completely consumes me.

When I think of this and all the other dumb things I have done that have hurt others, I feel so sad that I did that... . and where I could make amends, I did and where I cannot, I accept. And underneath it all, I forgave and now protect that little girl in me that was violated... . I love her. Once you truly learn to love and forgive yourself for all the things you have done that have others and you a wonderful, beautiful thing happens, you learn compassion and empathy for yourself.

Hi Sheepdog

 consuming shame does not sound like fun. And I know how hard it can feel to shake, to rise your head above it.

C gives some really great advice about self forgiveness and self-acceptance.

What about working with your therapist on the self forgiveness?

Love Blazing Star

[sheepdog]

Thinking of self-sabotaging behaviors as "good" or "bad" is black and white thinking. I am guessing that in your mind, labeling the behaviors "good" or "bad" makes YOU either "good" or "bad". They don't have to be either - they can just be normal human behavior. However, if they aren't working for you, it's worth replacing the thinking or behaviors with ones that do benefit you.  

Something else I have found helpful is learning about reactive depression and how the conditioning of our childhood leads to depression as a reaction to our thoughts and behaviors.

I have never heard of reactive depression.  I will look into it.

Yes, I am bad.  I have done something that no matter how bad my therapist tries, I feel such deep shame and know that I can't be forgiven.

I think the problem is, and I explained this to her.  Other people that have shame, they had something done to them.  I feel I didn't.  I feel it was a choice.  She disagress but hasn't been able to convince me.

C - but what if you were a HUGE part of the REASON for the circumstances that put those events into play?  That is what I can't get past.  The shame just completely consumes me.

Yep, been there and felt that.  

By the time I was 21 I absolutely hated myself, I thought I was a horrible person. Why? Well, for a lot of reasons. One was the way I treated men, or boys, really because at that age, I was real young and so were they.

When I went on a date, if a guy was all over me, I had no clue what to do. At the time, it never occurred to me that I didn't have boundaries with my body because I was sexually abused in childhood by my father and three older brothers, plus raped as a little girl by a neighbor. I would freeze, or worse "act out" what I had been groomed in childhood to do... .   pretend like being violated was okay because something about me made men go crazy with desire. This is crazy thinking but tragically, I was stuck there.

I thought it was my fault and no matter how much I bathed, or covered my body... .   men would molest me. I was very beautiful when I was young and a model, so I thought, oh, this is my fault, if I were cleaner, smarter, less attractive they would leave me alone. I give out a signal.  

The boys would think we were an item, but let me tell you, I would get as far away from them as I could and NEVER speak to them again. I was just filled with shame. I was dirty, a tool, an easy lay. I didn't allow myself to date very much because the experiences were so miserable so it wasn't like I had a lot of sexual encounters.  Now here is what was horrible.  I rejected a vulnerable young man due to my overwhelming sense of shame and he came to my home and tried so  hard to talk to me about scarey things, like my feelings. He asked me questions, such as who had hurt me and what was I afraid of... .   so I did something very cruel to get away from him. I laughed in his face while he cried. Later on, I learned he tried to commit suicide.  

For years I felt guilty.

Now in retrospect, I realize that although I am responsible for my actions, and although my treatment of him must have hurt him considerably and was confusing to him, I realize that given my FOO I didn't have the tools to protect my body, I didn't have the trust in another person to open up to them, and I didn't know how to select a healthy partner.

Years later I asked his forgiveness... .   thirty years after the incident and you know what... . he cried and thanked me for the apology. He thanked me for helping him understand. All those years later, he carried that hurt.

When I think of this and all the other dumb things I have done that have hurt others, I feel so sad that I did that... .   and where I could make amends, I did and where I cannot, I accept. And underneath it all, I forgave and now protect that little girl in me that was violated... .   I love her. Once you truly learn to love and forgive yourself for all the things you have done that have others and you a wonderful, beautiful thing happens, you learn compassion and empathy for yourself.

I still feel guilt at times and I think about it, pray about it, and believe in a loving Creator that loves me and understands me and designed for a purpose. I believe the same is true for you.

C

C, thank you.  I related to much you said.

I am so sorry ofr everything that happened to you in your childhood.  It breaks my heart.  But you are so strong now - I can tell.   

I feel like the Creator can not forgive things Ive done, though.

And, losing that, the faith part of me - one of the biggest identities I have... .   it's so hard.

C - but what if you were a HUGE part of the REASON for the circumstances that put those events into play?  That is what I can't get past.  The shame just completely consumes me.

When I think of this and all the other dumb things I have done that have hurt others, I feel so sad that I did that... .   and where I could make amends, I did and where I cannot, I accept. And underneath it all, I forgave and now protect that little girl in me that was violated... .   I love her. Once you truly learn to love and forgive yourself for all the things you have done that have others and you a wonderful, beautiful thing happens, you learn compassion and empathy for yourself.

Hi Sheepdog

 consuming shame does not sound like fun. And I know how hard it can feel to shake, to rise your head above it.

C gives some really great advice about self forgiveness and self-acceptance.

What about working with your therapist on the self forgiveness?

Love Blazing Star

Blazing Star - we have been working on forgiveness but I am having none of it.  Not in a stubborn way.  I just really don't think I could be forgiven so don't believe I should forgive myself.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Sheepdog,

Are you saying you are bad or that you've made or are making bad decisions?

In the past, I did a lot of sexual exploration. I was very shamed by it. But then one day, it was pointed out to me that I was doing the only thing I could to gain control over what was happening to me. I have a strong sex drive. A female counselor told me that a lot of women would love to have a partner who what as curious and interested in sex as I was. I now look at my sex drive as a blessing. I'm currently having problems with procrastination and avoiding, which, as each day passes, hurts my finances and carreer more and more. But these behaviors were very useful for coping with what was happening in my FOO. The were very well learned. Now, they are hard to unlearn. I also have high anxiety, which was also useful in my FOO. I had a sister who was 6 years older than me and a huge bully! What helped me to survive was to be as submissive as possible and to "disappear". I learned not to ask, not to speak, etc. Looking for a job is the opposite of this. Am I "lazy" because I find it so hard to apply for a job? No. I'm coping the way I learned how to cope when I was growing up.

Another example, take a kid who has learned to be a bully because that is what she learned is how to get things. And being hurtful to somebody else might be how she was taught to feel good about herself. Is she acting badly and hurting others, yes. Is she "bad". No! She's probably hurting inside and wants to play nicely with other kids but doesn't know how and the other kids don't play with her because she hurts them. But, teach her how to act around other kids, how to ask for what she wants without being aggressive, and she could easily turn around and be the nicest child around.

Many of us who grew up in dysfunctional families learned ways of dealing with other people that are abusive. Yes, we chose to do those things, because those were the choices and behaviors that we learned or were taught to us that helped us to survive when we were growing up. Yes, we made these choices, but these are all we new.

Take care,

AnotherPheonix   

[sheepdog]

AnotherPhoenix - thank you for being so nice to me.

This may make you understand more:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198423.new#new

[C12P21]

Sheep Dog,

I am not real good at summation of experiences but I think what I was trying to tell you is this- in order to understand why you make the decisions you do, or the actions you serve upon yourself or others is due to the events in your FOO that influence your thinking. Once you do the difficult and often times painful work of looking at your family in context, it becomes clear why you respond and behave as you have done in the past. Your perspective changes because you did not behave in a way that was influenced independent of that family history.

Forgiving others is easy, I forgive my abusers... .   but forgiving myself... .   was far more difficult. We are in some ways, our own worst enemies because we have little to no compassion for ourselves or our actions.

It took me TWO years to work through the toxic shame that held me captive in my life, two years of reading, reflecting, crying and feeling terrible. At the end of those two years came something wonderful, it was forgiveness. I forgave me, the person I hated the most, my own worst enemy, me.

'My hope for you is you will find this forgiveness but it will not be easy, it will be difficult.

Please read this prayer as it helped me immensely on my journey and I hope it will help you.

GREAT SPIRIT PRAYER

"Oh, Great Spirit, whose voice I hear in the wind,

Whose breath gives life to all the world.


Hear me; I need your strength and wisdom.

Let me walk in beauty, and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset.


Make my hands respect the things you have made

and my ears sharp to hear your voice


Make me wise so that I may understand the things you have taught my people.

Help me to remain calm and strong in the face of all that comes towards me.

Let me learn the lessons you have hidden in every leaf and rock.


Help me seek pure thoughts and act with the intention of helping others.

Help me find compassion without empathy overwhelming me.

I seek strength, not to be greater than my brother,

but to fight my greatest enemy - Myself.


Make me always ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes.

So when life fades, as the fading sunset,

my spirit may come to you without shame

this is a beautiful prayer and meant for all people, not just those that walk the red road.

C

[sheepdog]

C

I have printed that poem out.  It really touched me.

Thank you so much.

[C12P21]

you are welcome.   

C

[Phoenix.Rising]

I'm coming in late on this thread, but I have struggled with toxic shame since I was young.  I received messages, especially about sex, from my mother that were shaming.  So I thought sex was dirty, and if I felt sexual I was dirty and bad.  And it felt good to be 'bad'.  So I was confused early on about some of my feelings and behaviors.  I've had to do a lot of work to realize that is not true.  I'm much better now, but it is still something I am aware of at times. 

I also wanted to chime in and agree that 'Healing the Shame that Binds You' is an excellent work.  It was ground breaking when it came out.  I think that was in the '80's.

I also wanted to thank C12P21 for sharing that prayer.  I often read a meditation that talks about the Red Road.  I relate to Native American spirituality as I am part Cherokee.  That prayer really touched me and it was just what I needed tonight.  Thanks.

[AnotherPhoenix]

 

It took me TWO years to work through the toxic shame that held me captive in my life, two years of reading, reflecting, crying and feeling terrible. At the end of those two years came something wonderful, it was forgiveness. I forgave me, the person I hated the most, my own worst enemy, me.

'My hope for you is you will find this forgiveness but it will not be easy, it will be difficult.

TWO years. It took me longer, but I didn't work on it that hard at first, and I was still living with my BPDex, which made it so much more difficult for me to work on myself. I'm now 1&1/2 years separated from BPDex. I now feel mostly free of the toxic shame. It took me longer because I was also working on other things.

For me I the key components of my working through toxic shame have been: (1) reading and applying Bradshaw's book on toxic shame to myself, (2) realizing just how flawed everybody is and how others have either learned good coping skills, such as self-soothing and self-compassion, or how much they keep their flaws hidden (or both), and (3) learning and using tools for keeping toxic shame away--boundaries, self-compassion and self-soothing. Kristan Neff's website on self-compassion www.self-acceptance.org (with guided meditations and exercises for improving self-compassion) and the self-acceptance project https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=196176.0/

AnotherPheonix 

[sheepdog]

I've never heard of Neff's site or the self-acceptance project.

As far as Bradshaw's book - is most of it about things that happened in your childhood?  That is what I am struggling with as far as the book the therapist gave me.  These people were beaten, brutalized, abused.  I think there may have been sexual abuse (not from my immediate family) toward me as a child and I saw some violence as my neighbor was raging alcholholic who used to beat his wife and she would come over to my house to hide but I don't remember most of my childhood.

So I'm not finding the book very helpful.

As C said, I have always been my own worst enemy.  Never felt worth it.  Now, I feel that if someone looks at me wrong, if they don't respond to something, they KNOW.  Somehow, they know:  adulterer.  Liar.  Evil.  We know what you did.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Maybe you need to forgive yourself?  I'm still working on this... .

[TeaAmongRoses]

Sheepdog,

I read this thread and then I read the post in which you described why you are so ashamed of yourself. Well of course you feel horrible through and through! Your entire culture and upbringing has taught you that infidelity is the worst possible thing, you were seduced by a pwBPD over a long period of time and thus, you, as a human being who wishes to be accepted by your "people" feels awful about yourself.

Have you been holding all this information back from your community? Have you been keeping this a secret? I'm NOT suggesting you tell anyone. I have no idea if you would be rejected for it or if there is a way for you to be forgiven.

In my culture, we "confess" to the priest. That way we can continue to be accepted after we've "sinned". I'm sorry, I've changed religions because I was highly educated and was not able to get adequate answers from the Catholic church to my questions and therefore I sought out a new theology and have connected with a new community. But this is not an option for everyone. I've found ways to survive outside of my "family of origion" culture.

I am fourth generation immigrants and the "Judgement" from one's culture can be completely overwhelming. It is there to try to "protect" you but I believe it is also there, in many instances, to try and "control women" and their bodies. Thus, I do no "agree" with all of the teachings o my culture. I was taught (outside my family of origin culture, in my very good schools) to think critically, independently, to question these teachings and try to put them into context. However, that is an academic exercise. An intellectual exercise. We are still social creatures who need to be loved by "our" people.

One more thing I can relate to. My husband comes from a VERY conservative religion too. His conditioning by them is so severe he too feels toxic shame at times. We have both walked away from those communities that teach us that we are bad and that others are bad because of their behaviors when we know the religion is just trying to control people to serve their own interests. We know that we need to practice loving each other and being gentle about our mistakes.

The fact is that life is hard, people can trick us, and when we fall prey to their manipulations, we may feel guilty for our part in it, but we must accept also that we are human and that sometimes people can successfully manipulate us to their ends. ANYONE can be tricked and it doesn't make you bad for having done so. To me, bad experiences help me to open my heart up because now I know what it feels like to walk in someone elses shoes. This is where compassion comes from. nd compassion is the ability to hold someone our hearts, in our circle when they've stumbled. We all stumble at one point or another. And we cannot survive without others there to embrace us when we do. Thus, in living we learn to embrace wider and wider as we go always striving do well and right.   

Good luck on your journey! Tea