Can never mention their wrongdoings

[Chosen]

Is there anyway to bring up a pwBPD's wrongdoings without them getting annoyed?  Whenever I bring up something my H did wrong he would ignore me (would not apologise), and if I'm in a complaining mood and say it a second time he would say something like, "If you hate me so much, why are you with me?"

Yet he finds every opportunity to "remind" me how horrible I am and things I do to him.

I know pwBPDs cannot face themselves being anything but infallible, but if I comply and not speak about his wrongdoings in the past, does that mean I'm helping him hide and not confronting them?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi Chosen,

I can totally relate to what you are saying...

It seems from the literature written here and on other sites about Borderlines, that they create this false self to compensate for that ever present horrible feeling they have about themselves...

This false self is clearly seen when they are constantly in the game of projecting onto others the very same faults they have within...

I know this is something we are all capable of at times, but I think in general, most of us are a little more excepting of others and ourselves even over such petty matters.

At rare moments when their real self comes out, they know their faults, and even admit them, but if you challenge them on any mistakes, lord help you...

It is obviously OK for them to compliment you one moment, and the next minute tear you down for some small petty thing... comes completely out of left field often too... And it doesn't seem to register that when you 'rarely' call them out on it, they hear it, sometimes, (strangely!) even agree, and the next moment deny that very same thing until the cows come home.

This comes back to the old 'cycle of violence' chart...

In the country I live in, there is a lot more literature now amongst professionals in the mental health field, that the jails are full of violent male Borderlines... A larger group of these men are in there for crimes against women, or other men...

The worldly statistics on violence also state that of 95% of violent crimes are committed by males...

So as previously thought, there are in fact more male Borderlines than there are females... As Narcissism is more thought to be a male thing, a lot of these males are both NPD and BPD.

If you look at the movie, 'Girl Interrupted', with Angelina Jolie, and Wynona Ryder, both roles they play as females in a mental institution, are that of Borderlines... This movie was made around the time when a lot more awareness of the disorder started appearing, it also coincided with the belief that it was primarily females representing as case histories...

One of Madonna's early songs was about Borderline, and it was around the time she was married to Sean Penn, who was a classic male abuser at the time... He later went into therapy after he assaulted Madonna for the last time, terrorizing her for hours on end, by tying her in a chair and physically, psychologically, emotionally, and verbally abusing her...

This idea that because of the way she was with men, that he had the right to do this to her, is a fallacy these types of men have as ingrained beliefs... Sean hated the fact that Madonna was friends with so many 'gay males'. He also did not like her unfaithfulness... however, he himself drank, and verbally abused her and her friends on most occasions, and was often unfaithful himself.

How Madonna coped, was by permanent retaliation in her own way, rebellion... Instead of becoming a little woman in the corner, she fought back, and eventually left... when he refused to seek help... after assaulting her, and many of her friends... along with threatening their lives, her life, having a hoard of firearms in the home, which he regularly shot rounds from, used paper targets of Madonna's friends, and others he knew that crossed him...

In the industry, she was known for being very hard nosed and b***y... But she was always rebellious from her beginnings in the music industry, shaking up previously accepted roles of how females should be.

Some may say she took it too far, but you gotta hand it to her for having the very gall and strength to survive many times, grow, evolve, and succeed...

I like her... not everything about her, and everything she did, but I still admire her... immensely...

She is a very strong and confident woman in today's world...

Sorry for getting off topic here... I hope that you have benefited from my long blog...

Overall, we are supposed to validate their feelings, yes, but it is hard to keep validating someone who you know is rarely able to be there for your feelings and boundaries, or at the least find it impossible to consistently respect them.

The boundary thing is difficult for them, it seems the only boundaries allowed, and maintainable are theirs... Others boundaries don't seem to matter...

I sometimes liken it to raising a child, who you are firm and consistent with in rules, but there is some slot somewhere in their head, that memory slips out of, and they forget rules and continue to break them... So you have to keep retraining them, like someone with a 2 day memory or something...

Extremely frustrating... exhausting, and time wasting...

[Wishful thinking]

The boundary thing is difficult for them, it seems the only boundaries allowed, and maintainable are theirs... Others boundaries don't seem to matter... .  

Hi Chosen.

Love the way you are able to draw things out that Im not able to express nor put in words as much as i would like to.

But i guess the above is what sums everything up for me.

[waverider]

I tend to bring these things up, if I think it is important enough to do so, in a questioning sort of way. Asking if they believe XYZ was a good thing to do/say or not, and would they be be upset if someone said/did this thing to them. As opposed to outright telling them that I thought it inappropriate as a starting point.

But most of the time I dont bring things up if I dont think it will achieve anything

[Chosen]

Does bringing stuff back up achieve anything?  Trouble is, I don't know.

I suppose if he had the realisation that it's bad then he wouldn't do it again.  If he doesn't know/ can't/ won't control him, then me saying it a trillion times won't make any difference- except make him mad. 

This is why it's hard.  Sometimes I have to remind myself he's an adult, not a kid!

[waverider]

This is why it's hard.  Sometimes I have to remind myself he's an adult, not a kid!

This is a common trap in thinking. A kid is developing, learning, an amateur at pushing boundaries, and ultimately they know you have authority. A pwBPD is not developing, they are not open to learning, they have a life times experience at pushing boundaries and will not accept you as an authority over them.

Treating them as you would a kid will be received as patronizining and invaliding. There lies the  difficulty. Try sending him to his room for time out and you will know what I mean !

Using that analogy may seem to make sense, but it wont provide effective solutions

[wanttoknowmore]

Chosen,

Why pwBPD resent and get angry when you point out their wrongdoings?

My take is that at deeper level they know that there is a lot wrong with them. When you point out negatives, they get overwhelmed, some counterattack and some go silent. Its their way to defend their whatever little self esteem they have. I think any negatives should be brought in a very gradual,softer and kinder way with lots of support and empathy. They also want to know but they can not handle raw truth.  What ,fellow,BPD fixers think?

[waverider]

Chosen,

Why pwBPD resent and get angry when you point out their wrongdoings?

My take is that at deeper level they know that there is a lot wrong with them. When you point out negatives, they get overwhelmed, some counterattack and some go silent. Its their way to defend their whatever little self esteem they have. I think any negatives should be brought in a very gradual,softer and kinder way with lots of support and empathy. They also want to know but they can not handle raw truth.  What ,fellow,BPD fixers think?

For a pwBPD they have spent a lifetime of things going wrong. To admit they are the source would be so overwhelmingly depressing, that denial becomes the only defense, especially as they dont have the tools to reverse that.

It becomes so ingrained they know no other way. Any criticism is seen as a direct attack at their subconscious weakness and needs be be repelled at all costs, for to admit the consequences of their behavior is to be a complete failure, for there is no temporary blame. Either no blame or all blame. To be at fault today is to be always at fault yesterday, today and forever.

You may think you are bringing up a small criticism, but to them there is no part blame, they are either good or bad, no such thing as a bit of both.

So if you are going to pull them up on something it should be an important core issue and better if you can get them to work it though to their own conclusion without you trying to "set them straight" as a venting exercise.

[hell0kitty]

My ex husband, who I know had some kind of PD< just not sure it was BPDm was a super mellow dude for the most part UNLESS you in ANY way accused him of being wrong.  Then all bets were off.  It was a total trigger.  My daughter and I got to a point where we would tell each other things when he wasn't around and would say "I didn't want to say this in front of him because he would flip out but ... .  "

It was crazy how walking on eggshells around him became habit.  Even things as simple as if I saw that he missed a turn when he was driving, if I pointed it out, "Wasn't that our turn?"  I'd get a tirade of "FINE! I MADE A MISTAKE OK! YOU DON'T HAVE TO JUMP ALL OVER ME!"  Then he would go on a loop and start repeating what he just said. 

Once I told him that years ago someone had told me he had cheated on an ex.  About 7 years had passed, so I figured it was OK to bring up.  No one cared anymore.  It was 7AM on a Sunday, he ran over, grabbed the phone and called the person who I said told me and gave him the 3rd degree. 

He even told our therapist that he wasn't going to continue sessions because I was the one who had issues not him and left never to return.  (Then he was shocked when I finally left him!)

He was an extremely pleasant person as long as you NEVER said he made a mistake or messed up in any way, but he was constantly telling everyone else what was wrong with all of us.  Very strange behavior indeed. 

[Cloudy Days]

I personally would like to know how to stop him from blaming things on me. My husband had a huge blow up about a year ago. It was a life changing blow up, the type that either he gets treatment or I leave. When it first happend, he owned up to it, he appologised he was sorry for what he did. Give it a month and somehow he has turned it all on me. Everything that happend was somehow my fault. He got charges from this incedent so everytime he thinks about these charges he gets pissed off at me because somehow it was all my fault. How would I deal with this?

I know he is delusional, I know none of it was my fault. I know he was out of his mind and I had to do something. I will take no blame for this, but that doesn't stop him from blaming me anyways and it turning into a rage.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi Cloudy Days,

Liken his blow up, to all the suspected murderers you see on TV, who shoot or kill their wives, or their friends, and are in the news currently... The ones who are not declared mentally ill by reason of temporary insanity, try and get out of it by blaming it onto someone, or something else... Eventually, they go to jail anyway... some get away with it all, and we, the public are horrified, as there is no justice for the victim...

I do not mean to horrify you, and say your partner is a potential murderer... (however, I can say that mine is, with the extent of his explosions past!). The example above is the extreme of these blow ups, but the underlying beliefs and dysfunctions are what is the crux here... .  

I guarantee you, most of them are BP's having a psychotic episode... .  because they are not deemed to be mentally ill by the courts after examination... Remember that charm!

At moments, these extreme violaters can seem as normal as the next person, and be completely charming... then you will hear suspected drug use, alcoholism as a factor, and friends of the victim talking about how much control they had over the victims...

Like what they wore, what they did, who they saw, who they were friends with etc...

Liken it to a case currently in the news, a disabled sports star is under suspicion of murdering his girlfriend, who was shot and killed whilst he was in the house... (amazing! and of course, he didn't mean to, as he thought she was an intruder!

His story also changed several times, (why they don't actually realise this is the first sign of a lie, amazes me!)

The body of his story is that upon wakening, (with his girlfriend in bed beside him), he heard an intruder, he got up, without waking his girlfriend first, (surprisingly!) and believing the intruder to be in the toilet, (as you do when you are a seasoned intruder/burglar, grab a quick toilet stop),grabbed his protheses), then his 'already loaded gun', walked out to the landing, and shot several times into the toilet.

He then went back into the bedroom to wake his girlfriend up! she must be a really deep sleeper mate!

He then realised his girlfriend wasn't in the bed, oh no! and went out to see where she was, discovering her in the toilet! dead and bloody...

He then called a friend, (not the police first) and asked them to quickly come over as something terrible had happened... As the friend walked in, (the door wasn't locked, yet he is afraid of intruders?) Mr Pistorius, (maybe not correct spelling here) was walking down the staircase, carrying his 'beloved girls' body, and repeating his endearing term for her over and over... with tears... .  etc...

Interestingly, I was reading the article, and my BP was on my computer looking at Ebay... As he does, he decided he was tired, and wanted to rest, (codeword for making love first), and came out noticing me flicking past the article... I casually flicked past and didn't read it... as this can be a trigger for his moods...

But, he went on about the guy guilty... Saying how he thinks he can get away with it, because he is disabled... and use a con job story...

But then, amazingly, he said, 'read it, it says that she had some ex messaging her that night or something... or was having an affair or something'... as if that makes it right! and she deserved it...

I said, not much, only that it did not give him the right to shoot her, because some ex, now friend sent her a text message... he agreed, but still pleaded that she didn't exactly do much to help herself did she, by doing that...

What?... .  pray tell me, what exactly did she do?

Nothing, that's what...

I hope he rots in hell... .  that guy, and any other guy/woman who murders their wife/husband and gets away with it... or murders anyone else...

What I am essentially saying Cloudy Days, is that this is a sign of classic mental illness... Blame you, for how they treat you, or someone, or something else...

ie, the cat got sick, my car broke, I had no money, I was homeless, my family hates me, everyone hates me, and any other number of excuses...

One of the first steps in their healing and committment to changing their abusive ways, is the admission of personal responsibility for their own choices, thinking, and actions... .  

It is not just mental illness, (of which the helping professions cannot help much with Borderlines and do not want to in this country)... Many of the typical mental illnesses can at least be treated with medication... BP cannot... Only intense therapy to change their arrogant way of thinking, can help them... .  perhaps aided by SSRI's...

Not taking personal responsibility for their actions, is also that of the classic abuser... until they learn how to control their emotions/reactions, they will never heal, nor will our relationships with them...

It takes firstly, a personal inventory, like we Nons are asked to do here...

That inventory is written to all those they/we have hurt, and are hurting, with our abusive behaviours... It takes a willingness to make it up to those people, and an awareness not to repeat it... .  challenging of our outmoded beliefs about the roles of women and men in relationships... and how they should be, who does what, how each sex should behave etc... .  an honest expression of remorse, and committment not to repeat bad behaviour...

At the very least, an instant apology if we muck up again... and a making it up to people... a promise, to ourselves and those we are close to, in order for all of us to feel better about ourselves and our lives once again, and to preserve the essential goal of peace...